Sonic Mania Plus: Official Reveal (Coming July 17th) - NO SPOILERS

[Jango]

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

You know people gripe a lot about oil oceans boss. He was the weakest imo. I got stuck in the left corner but I had a flame shield

Yeah, really easy!

[Meta77]

31 minutes ago, Jango said:

Yeah, really easy!

I didn't start the fire, it was already burning while the world and eggman were turning a giant squid. Keep your shields peeps XD!

[Diogenes]

4 hours ago, Jango said:

What you guys think of the Metal Sonic boss?

I think it kinda sucked.

In the running sections, all you can do is run and dodge, which is kind of boring. Plus odds are you'll run into some nearly inescapable situations sometimes, where Metal starts an attack as you go off a quarterpipe or when you're on a slope or something and you can't really properly dodge him. You should've at least been able to counter his spin attack with your own.

The Silver Sonic part is a nice bundle of references, and I like what they tried to do mechanically, but it doesn't entirely work. It doesn't really teach you what you're supposed to do (why can I spin into these guys' spin attack but not Metal's?), and it's too hard to directly control the Silver Sonics' bouncing so instead of taking an active role in knocking them back you're more likely to take a passive role and wait for them to get into the right positions where you can guarantee they'll bounce right.

And then the last part is just annoying. It's not made clear when Metal first becomes vulnerable, it's easy to get bounced between him and the spike wall, and there's no windup on him going into attack mode so it's never entirely clear when it's safe to attack or when you're going to eat electricity.

In short the presentation is gold and there are some interesting ideas, but the execution is kinda sloppy and it's annoying to actually play.

TBH I consider the bosses the weakest part of Mania (though in fairness few Sonic games do better) so I'm glad they're doing some tweaking and rebalancing.

[Bobnik]

5 hours ago, Jango said:

What you guys think of the Metal Sonic boss?

The first phase I found okay. I like when bosses don't go for the standard "Wait for the opportunity to hit the boss or cheese him" types of bossfights, and go more like they're another level with obstacles that are unique to the boss. Though I did find it much less intense than, say, Perfect Chaos bossfight in Generations (I still think it's one of the better bosses in this franchise) or even a race against Metal in CD. It felt empty-ish. Still arguably the best phase of a bossfight IMO

The second phase, while not hard when you figure it out, IMO doesn't give enough clues on what to actually do, making several people, myself included, get stuck there for some time (there's quite an amount of videos where a player gets stuck on that phase for several minutes before figuring out what to do.), so I don't like it that much.

The third phase is just designed poorly IMO. That moving spike wall doesn't hinder the player, it actually helps him get Metal easier. He also doesn't do anything that can even be considered a challenge. It was also completely unnecessary, cuz if not for this phase, the length of the boss would be fine.

[mikeblastdude]

5 hours ago, Jango said:

What you guys think of the Metal Sonic boss?

I absolutely love it, personally. It’s one of my favorite moments in the game. As a huge Metal Sonic fan, it was everything I wanted it to be.

For one, I love the Stardust Speedway Bad Future remix that plays during the battle. It’s wonderfully obnoxious, yet still has an epic, intense feel to it. The “chase” part at the beginning is a great way to start out. I much prefer running forward and dodging attacks to waiting on a still screen for a chance to attack, which is how a lot of the Mania bosses tend to work. The second phase with the Silver Sonics is an awesome 8-bit reference, and pretty fun, but yeah I will agree that it would have been nice to somehow been given some sort of indication of how you’re supposed to hit Metal. Once it’s figured out though, it’s pretty easy. The third phase with the spike wall is a good way to end it, as it has the same “keep moving forward fast or be killed” vibe that the original Sonic CD boss had, although, it’s so easy to get your rings back after being hit since they just get pushed forward with the wall, that it doesn’t make it much of a challenge.

So yeah, my only real complaint is that it’s a bit too easy, once you get the part with the Silver Sonics figured out at least. I personally don’t think it goes on too long at all, but I can see where others are coming from with that complaint. But, yeah, I think it’s a great boss battle, and one of the high points in the game.

[JosepHenry]

6 hours ago, Jango said:

What you guys think of the Metal Sonic boss?

It really sucked, this guy is cursed to always have underwelming bosses that do nothing to show how powerful and menacing he is. The spike walls were more menacing than him.

People love him for some reason but not even once in a game that you fight him he was a challenge. 

Give me a challenge Metal Sonic! Be menacing, be difficult, be fast, be merciless, be memorable!

I hope they change him for Plus.

[JezMM]

4 hours ago, Jango said:

@JezMM Hehe, I can't lie, you got that right pal, I did used the game genie thingy back in the day on Sonic & Knuckles Collection at least. I remember being stuck for the longest time in Sandopolis Act 2. I was also one of those that got stuck in Carnival Night's barrel...  I was like 8 to 9 years old even!

I eventually managed to beat every classic game the right way, a couple of years later. Maybe yeah, some bosses in Mania are a bit too harsh for their own good and Flying Battery is only a drag if you take the high route (yep, they did the reverse way in this zone). The lower route is more straight forward. Still, Act 2 is long as hell, and the boss isn't the kind you can force your way. Not gonna lie, I had a Time Over on FBZ Act 2 on my first playthrough, during the boss ;(

An easy mode isn't the solution I would go with, but maybe make some bosses demand less hits to defeat? And a couple of rings in the arena. The OOZ octopus boss could spill a few rings now and then during the fight.

All in all, they're my favorite Sonic bosses in any 2D game.

Honestly if it was me, I wouldn't make it an "easy mode" but something more like Mario Odyssey's assist mode.  Literally there for people who aren't so confident and want a helping hand.  If you die over 5 times at the same checkpoint it could be offered to you (unless you turn it off in advance on the options screen - the default setting would be to "ask" rather than on or off).  For bosses, I think the most satisfying thing for a player would be to make it so it saves how many hits you've done on the boss even if you die, or maybe it steadily reduces how many hits are needed behind the scenes if you continue to fail (I'd also say give the player infinite lives, those are outdated as is, only making the game even more frustrating for the unskilled and being irrelevant to the skilled).

That way the player still gets the satisfaction of beating the boss by proving that they understand how to beat it, they just lack the skills to do it persistantly a whole bunch of times in a row.

Of course... if all else fails and they die like, 10 times or something, maybe a "skip to the next checkpoint" option could appear, like Lost World had (just don't make it mandatory... I've never beaten Frozen Factory 3's 2nd pinball table legit because it sends you straight into the checkpoint skip after three deaths, grr).

[Eurisko]

I loved the metal Sonic boss , probably out of all the bosses on that game the Metal Sonic one felt like the most modern as it had the multiple layers to it the way many of the great modern Sonic bosses do.

I saw a few comments about the Oil Ocean bosses. Act 1 I found no problem at all , one of the easiest on the game I thought, but the ACT 2 boss?? ............ Nearly ripped my hair out over that. Game-overed me multiple times on the my first play through.  A great boss but man I struggled lol.

[Tracker_TD]

I too thought Mania's bosses were perhaps its weak point, so I'm glad they might be getting re-jigged a bit. I'd like them to take Jez's suggestion of reworking saves too - I know it's based on 3's save system, but seeing my brother get discouraged by FBZ2 Game Overs was naff. 

[JezMM]

Honestly even with skill levels aside, not saving when you clear Act 1 is just inconvenient for everyone.  On my first playthrough, I got up at 6am before work to play it, and managed to get to the end of Stardust Speedway.  Excitedly on my break I ran home to play just a little more and got through Hydrocity and Act 1 of Mirage Saloon.  I saved and quit on Act 2 and went back to work... when I got home I of course discovered I had to play Act 1 again for no good reason lol.

Worse than that, what with the game's crash-prone-ness, more than once I've suffered a full game lockup on Act 2 of a zone and had to replay Act 1 again for that reason.

[Jango]

Oh yeah, an option to pick Act 1 or 2 would be nice, even if it means no transitions (I don't care unless I'm playing like a story mode). Sometimes I just wanna play MSZ Act 2, without having to play Sky Chase before it, ya know? :U

[BlueFlare]

1 hour ago, Eurisko said:

I loved the metal Sonic boss , probably out of all the bosses on that game the Metal Sonic one felt like the most modern as it had the multiple layers to it the way many of the great modern Sonic bosses do.

As a fan of CD, I had very conflicting reaction to Metal Sonic in Mania.  I loved my man Metal's design in Mania, plus the music rocks,  but overall this boss bug'd me the most in the whole game due to my expectations. I was super hyped at first to find out he was in the game,  until I played it myself. What I felt was that it sucked. The level is stupidly blocky at times, plus it goes uphill and those are a bad combination. I honestly was expecting it to be a race with a good flow but the momentum dies alot  of the time during this boss.

[expansivelovestories]

19 minutes ago, BlueFlare said:

As a fan of CD, I had very conflicting reaction to Metal Sonic in Mania.  I loved my man Metal's design in Mania, plus the music rocks,  but overall this boss bug'd me the most in the whole game due to my expectations. I was super hyped at first to find out he was in the game,  until I played it myself. What I felt was that it sucked. The level is stupidly blocky at times, plus it goes uphill and those are a bad combination. I honestly was expecting it to be a race with a good flow but the momentum dies alot  of the time during this boss.

I do think that they did not want to overshadow the original Stardust Speedway race with Metal Sonic, and, or, that if Metal Sonic would continue to appear in games, that it also means that each eventual/next encounter does not have to try to live up to a perfect one from Mania!  

 

[Tenko]

I liked most of the Metal Sonic boss fight, the sudden appearance, the race call back to CD (which suits his character), the device that almost looks like a callback to the OVA with the Mini Silver Sonic units from the GG Sonic 2, (I don't like how fast and easy that second phase is tho, spindash the Silver Sonic units as soon as they go into their spin animation and they hit Metal every time, he's down in seconds). The only bit I didn't really enjoy was the third phase with the moving spike wall, it felt a bit lazy compared to CD, yes it conveyed urgency and a threat etc, but Eggman with his laser in CD seemed more natural to the stage, a huge ransom spike wall...is rather impersonal and bland I thought. 

Overall tho it was a good fight, loved the music to pieces too which helps!!

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, BlueFlare said:

The level is stupidly blocky at times, plus it goes uphill...

It was literally like that to begin with in Sonic CD.

[Jango]

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

It was literally like that to begin with in Sonic CD.

I feel like it was worse in CD tho'. It also had some spiky spikes.

I kinda dislike Metal Sonic's boss in Mania because some of his attacks are missleading in the running parts. Even when you feel like you jumped at the right time, the bastard still hits you. Phase 2 is pure lucky based, this time I have to admit, there isn't any visual cues indicating that the little Metals bounce if you spindash on them. But once you figure it out, it's a walk in park: pick one side of the screen and wait for the little Metal's spindash. Rev up yours only ONCE before releasing it. Release it right after Metal's and it will bounce directly at Metal Sonic. If you rev up like crazy, the little Metal will bounce all over the place and miss the target... 

And the final phase is just weird, IDK. There's no flow like Studiopolis Act 1 boss. 

[Tenko]

The HBH fight in Studiopolis is a spectacle, kinda like the level too really, it felt like it showed off what the team could do, the resizing sprites ala Chaotix, the moving boss much like in Advance, and having the copter chasing you and launching missiles reminded me of when Flying Battery pops in and drops bombs on the way to the boss in Angel Island, except this time you can fight back!

While it's quite simple in how to defeat it, it was overload on the eyes and I loved it. My favourite HBH, behind Magician. I do wish they had a bit more meat to them tho, when they escaped I was expecting them to come back so you could destroy them. Didn't really think their brief...and kinda ugly..reintroduction during the Titanic Monarch boss fight did them justice. 

[BlueFlare]

7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

It was literally like that to begin with in Sonic CD.

Yes, it partly was and I don't mean CD's was perfect. The thing is, I don't see why redo CD's blockiness for Mania. Stuff like uphill slope/ramp and then jump to higher stage and another following it kills the momentum. It has very little flow to it. 

Also, I liked CD's way of instant death if Eggman reaches you. Mania's boss is a cakewalk, the spikes part in Mania is a joke.

 

[StaticMania]

It's not as blocky, it's literally just a block high ledge.

[Eurisko]

11 hours ago, BlueFlare said:

As a fan of CD, I had very conflicting reaction to Metal Sonic in Mania.  I loved my man Metal's design in Mania, plus the music rocks,  but overall this boss bug'd me the most in the whole game due to my expectations. I was super hyped at first to find out he was in the game,  until I played it myself. What I felt was that it sucked. The level is stupidly blocky at times, plus it goes uphill and those are a bad combination. I honestly was expecting it to be a race with a good flow but the momentum dies alot  of the time during this boss.

Yeah I can see where your coming from there. There is a lot of up-hill running in that boss but I do enjoy seeing that background animation revolving. Though the one thing I couldn't understand is the final section where you can be hit by that spikey wall on the left. if you've got at least 1 Ring you can't really die and it allows you to get plenty of hits on Metal. I hope this is one of the sections that has been adjusted. 

Also while  we are on the subject of boss fights I hope we get a boss rush mode like in Taxmans mobile versions of Sonic 1+2

[JezMM]

54 minutes ago, BlueFlare said:

Yes, it partly was and I don't mean CD's was perfect. The thing is, I don't see why redo CD's blockiness for Mania. Stuff like uphill slope/ramp and then jump to higher stage and another following it kills the momentum. It has very little flow to it. 

Also, I liked CD's way of instant death if Eggman reaches you. Mania's boss is a cakewalk, the spikes part in Mania is a joke.

 

Unless they put a checkpoint midway through the battle or shortened it significantly, an insta-death threat chasing you would've been ridiculously punishing.  Remember as well that Metal Sonic was the penultimate boss of Sonic CD, here he is the boss of the halfway point through the game.

 

I think every now and then it's okay to put the choice of challenge into the player's hands.  Don't like the spike wall for how easy to not die it makes that last phase?  Next time you play, challenge yourself to not get hit by it once.  You'll feel the same pressure if you care about your own goal, but for the common player, I think the difficulty is about right for the 12th boss out of 24.

[Tenko]

The instant death laser from Eggman in Sonic CD, and the collapsing road in Generations were both natural elements that didn't feel out of place, and provided a real threat to avoid falling behind. The location in the game didn't matter, yes Metal was the big bad before the final zone and boss, but in Generations he was the first rival, but had an instant death threat in the collapsing road.

The spike wall is quite unnatural in it's surroundings and as many have mentioned, is far to easy for the final phase of the battle. It's almost impossible to die when the wall collects and holds all your rings for you like a gentleman.

[BlueFlare]

I'm definitely with @Tenko here. I recently played Mania and all the classics and I can't name many, if any, forgiving bosses from the classics. To me one of the weakest points in Mania were the bosses, there's barely any challenge in them. Nonetheless, it is my favorite Sonic game among Sonic 3 and CD. 

[JezMM]

The key factor with the spike wall for me is that the boss is only halfway through the game and there's so much of it to repeat if you die - especially if you don't figure out the spin dash trick on Phase 2.

Metal Sonic in Generations being the first boss but having an insta-death is not at all comparable since you generally don't need to control your speed in order to hit Metal, the boss can be beaten in under a minute so there's not a ton to redo if you die on the last phase, and if you do get a Game Over, you don't have to repeat two entire levels to try again.

I honestly can't think of a single classic boss that is as unforgiving as what is being proposed to improve the Metal Sonic battle.  There are final bosses in the classics that are shorter in duration than Mania's Metal Sonic fight without throwing an insta-kill attack in at the end.

 

I do agree that thematically, the spike wall is weird and out of nowhere though.  But I do think this is a case where percieved threat over actual threat was the right choice.

[JezMM]

2 hours ago, SaberX said:

Its funny though that Advanced 2 is praised by some and the game has a bunch of cheap deaths here and there. The Knuckles boss even has an instant dead, no matter how many rings you have.

Pretty much every "bad" Sonic game could be described as "praised by some" so not sure how Advance 2 is relevant here really.  Even those who like Advance 2 tend to consider that boss to be a low-point in the game.