Is Shadow Faster Than Sonic?

[Razule]

Sonic is called "Sonic" for "supersonic". Shadow is "shadow". Shadows cannot move on their own, therefore Sonic is fastest.

[MetalSkulkBane]

11 hours ago, Razule said:

Sonic is called "Sonic" for "supersonic". Shadow is "shadow". Shadows cannot move on their own, therefore Sonic is fastest.

Ah, but is Sonic faster than his own shadow?

Spoiler

 

Well, discussion over.

 

EDIT: also, I love how people use game statistic to prove something. According to Sonic Forces Speed Battle, Shadow is psychically weaker than  Cream or Charmy. Or in Winter Olympics Wii version Silver is much slower than Silver on DS version.

[BaronGrackle]

^ Hey look, it's Classic Shadow!

[Shadowlax]

15 hours ago, Razule said:

Sonic is called "Sonic" for "supersonic". Shadow is "shadow". Shadows cannot move on their own, therefore Sonic is fastest.

Hold on

Shadow is darkness though, and most of the universe is dark as shit, so he's everywhere . So technically he's the fastest because he's already everywhere you can go. 

100% Super proof

[Salamander]

Ah, but if Shadow has ballooned to such DeviantArtesque proportions as to be physically ubiquitous, already present everywhere - doesn't that just mean that he never moves?  Therefore, Shadow is actually the slowest member of the cast.

[Kuzu]

9 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Ah, but is Sonic faster than his own shadow?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Well, discussion over.

 

EDIT: also, I love how people use game statistic to prove something. According to Sonic Forces Speed Battle, Shadow is psychically weaker than  Cream or Charmy. Or in Winter Olympics Wii version Silver is much slower than Silver on DS version.

I'm only citing the speed stats, which have been consistent in almost every game they're in together. They're always the fastest, no matter what other stats change.

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

43 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm only citing the speed stats, which have been consistent in almost every game they're in together. They're always the fastest, no matter what other stats change.

 

Hmm, fair point, fair point.

Still, if you put take 1rst smartest person and 2nd smartest person and will have to rate them from 1 to 10, you'll give both of them ten. It would be pointless to give 10 to a single person. All those statistics prove is that Shadow and Sonic are of comparable speed, something that we need since day 1.

[DabigRG]

10 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

10 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

EDIT: also, I love how people use game statistic to prove something. According to Sonic Forces Speed Battle, Shadow is psychically weaker than  Cream or Charmy. Or in Winter Olympics Wii version Silver is much slower than Silver on DS version.

Does Chaos powers remotely count as psychic ones, though?

 

 

[Dash Speed]

4 hours ago, FFWF said:

Ah, but if Shadow has ballooned to such DeviantArtesque proportions as to be physically ubiquitous, already present everywhere - doesn't that just mean that he never moves?  Therefore, Shadow is actually the slowest member of the cast.

It means he's relativistic, he's faster or as fast as the concept of the embodying the whole of existence that governs our universe since he's everywhere as the concept of being darkness/shadow. Including the concept of speed and motion(sonic).

[Kuzu]

8 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

It means he's relativistic, he's faster or as fast as the concept of the embodying the whole of existence that governs our universe since he's everywhere as the concept of being darkness/shadow. Including the concept of speed and motion(sonic).

I can't tell if this is a joke or if you actually took his post seriously...

[BaronGrackle]

32 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I can't tell if this is a joke or if you actually took his post seriously...

You don't recognize the tone?

It's both. It starts with a joke premise, but then it dissects it to see what gems could be found if it were taken seriously.

[Shadowlax]

20 hours ago, FFWF said:

Ah, but if Shadow has ballooned to such DeviantArtesque proportions as to be physically ubiquitous, already present everywhere - doesn't that just mean that he never moves?  Therefore, Shadow is actually the slowest member of the cast.

Maybe he's moving so fast we can't comprehend it , like the earth around the sun

[Shopoke]

I've seen comparison between their running speeds here but what about their spin ball/spin dash speeds? Couldn't that be another category to compare them with?

[MetalSkulkBane]

12 hours ago, Shopoke said:

I've seen comparison between their running speeds here but what about their spin ball/spin dash speeds? Couldn't that be another category to compare them with?

I doubt it would work. For starters, we have even fewer data about their spin speeds.

[Shopoke]

On 2/25/2018 at 8:14 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

I doubt it would work. For starters, we have even fewer data about their spin speeds.

True, but do you think Shadow's speed in those or his homing attack would be using his own speed or using chaos?

[MetalSkulkBane]

3 minutes ago, Shopoke said:

True, but do you think Shadow's speed in those or his homing attack would be using his own speed or using chaos?

Spin Dash is his own speed. Homing attack: depends how it's animated. If he disappears and appears somewhere, he teleported (otherwise he would be faster than Sonic)

[Darth InVaders]

5 hours ago, Shopoke said:

True, but do you think Shadow's speed in those or his homing attack would be using his own speed or using chaos?

 

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Spin Dash is his own speed. Homing attack: depends how it's animated. If he disappears and appears somewhere, he teleported (otherwise he would be faster than Sonic)

He clearly uses his own speed for his Spin Attacks, whether its Spin Dash or Homing Attack. He needs an Emerald to use the power of the Chaos Emeralds to "teleport" by warping time and space with Chaos Control - he does not have his own Chaos Emerald power inside him.

As Takashi Iizuka, the man that created Shadow and currently heads Sonic Team, said, "If he [Shadow the Hedgehog] doesn't have a Chaos Emerald he cannot use Chaos Control"
@41:30   

In addition to many other such statements in game cutscenes and in official profiles.

If you are soooo convinced that this has changed and Shadow does not need an Emerald to do his Chaos Control, then ask Iizuka himself to clarify or update his statement (and don't forget to record it to post online as proof). Iizuka will be at the SXSW Gotta Go Fast: The Official Sonic the Hedgehog Panel on March 16, 2018 https://schedule.sxsw.com/2018/events/PP99104

Otherwise these statements prove the status quo and status quo reins without definitive proof otherwise (as Shadow could have had an Emerald or fake Emerald in Forces)

[MetalSkulkBane]

And Sega clearly "misused" that teleportation skill on several occasions.

So he when he Homing Teleport Attacks it's equally "wrong" to him teleporting in Chronicles without Emerald.

There, happy? (Actually, it doesn't matter. I looked at footage of few games and Shadow never Homing Attacks with teleport. Makes sense when you think about it).

[Shadowlax]

On 2/28/2018 at 6:07 PM, Darth InVaders said:

 

Otherwise these statements prove the status quo and status quo reins without definitive proof otherwise (as Shadow could have had an Emerald or fake Emerald in Forces)

There's no proof of this

He uses chaos control with out an emerald

He's done this before

Izuka has said dumb bullshit before that didn't turn out to be true and changed his mind. 

Shadow uses a a chaos control move, the most powerful one. WIth out a chaos emerald in forces and in several games prior. Give this up, Sonic team gave it up. 

I don't know if you hate shadow or something, that's fine. But you need to come to terms with its a thing he has done, can do and will do. And isn't about deep lore, its about sonic team not wanting to use chaos emeralds, in all their stories and this allows them to not have to do that. Also shadow has never, used a fake chaos emerald...ever. So you can't really assert what must have but, all you can is interpret what was, and what was is like usual he has used chaos powers with out a chaos emerald. Because the people writing it stopped caring years ago, and don't really care to include chaos emeralds in every single story they write. Times change, characters change, characters get new powers ad change all the time. And you need to come to terms with this. 

I think I said this before but I think the BOOM versions of shadow and knuckles are what they want out of those characters. Completely connected from the chaos emeralds and M.E respectively so they can just use those characters

Heck to put the icing on the cake, shadow was going to have chaos boost warp thingy from his game in forces it was in the game. I can't speculate why its gone  besides the levels were already short and to do that would make them...pointless. But you and I know goddamn well it isn't because any chaos emerald lore, especially when he warps and stops time in that game with out it. They devs don't care, and the audience does not care. 

The character has changed, that's ok. Sonic has gotten new powers, sonic has lost powers. This is a brand meant to last for a very long time. The character has changed and you gotta deal with it

[Darth InVaders]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

There's no proof of this

...

You're joking right?

- Takashi Iizuka, Sonic Boom 2013 Q&A: "If he [Shadow the Hedgehog] doesn't have a Chaos Emerald he cannot use Chaos Control"
@41:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nzxRoIX4QU

- Shadow profile, Adventure2 manual: "Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds"

- Sonic, Adventure2 cutscene: "It's not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp."

- Shadow, Adventure2 cutscene: "It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake."

- Shadow profile, Heroes manual: "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds."

- Shadow, Sonic06 cutscene: "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space"

- Shadow profile, Sonic Channel website: "He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds"

- Shadow profile, Rivals website: "Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..."

And already I have more proof than you, but I've posted this before so you should have known about it

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

...

Izuka has said dumb bullshit before that didn't turn out to be true and changed his mind. 

...

Really? The creator of the character and the head of the team that makes the games does not have the credibility. Now that's being desperate. 

To quote you, "There's no proof of this"

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

...

Shadow uses a a chaos control move, the most powerful one. WIth out a chaos emerald in forces and in several games prior. Give this up, Sonic team gave it up. 

I don't know if you hate shadow or something, that's fine. But you need to come to terms with its a thing he has done, can do and will do. And isn't about deep lore, its about sonic team not wanting to use chaos emeralds, in all their stories and this allows them to not have to do that. Also shadow has never, used a fake chaos emerald...ever. So you can't really assert what must have but, all you can is interpret what was, and what was is like usual he has used chaos powers with out a chaos emerald. Because the people writing it stopped caring years ago, and don't really care to include chaos emeralds in every single story they write. Times change, characters change, characters get new powers ad change all the time. And you need to come to terms with this. 

I think I said this before but I think the BOOM versions of shadow and knuckles are what they want out of those characters. Completely connected from the chaos emeralds and M.E respectively so they can just use those characters

Heck to put the icing on the cake, shadow was going to have chaos boost warp thingy from his game in forces it was in the game. I can't speculate why its gone  besides the levels were already short and to do that would make them...pointless. But you and I know goddamn well it isn't because any chaos emerald lore, especially when he warps and stops time in that game with out it. They devs don't care, and the audience does not care. 

The character has changed, that's ok. Sonic has gotten new powers, sonic has lost powers. This is a brand meant to last for a very long time. The character has changed and you gotta deal with it

I do not hate Shadow. In fact, I like Shadow and the balance that Shadow has with Sonic as equals, and Shadow becoming a living Chaos Emerald that can use Chaos Control at any time without an Emerald nearby kills that balance. I also like a stable canon. But my preferences for this balance and stability are not justifications for my position, evidence is - most of this evidence I've posted many other times in addition to just now above. I also like the detail in the canon of the Chaos Emeralds. They are hammered down in canon as miracle gems that turn thoughts into actual power (as explained in several games), power that can be given to all living things or to create terrible weapons (to paraphrase the Sonic 1 story) and are mysterious enough to fit many situations (as they have been used in many different stories). Shadow does not turn the thoughts of himself and those around him into actual power, that is ridiculous - talk to me again if something canon actually happens to say he can do this and is a living Chaos Emerald (like someone saying power can be harnessed from Shadow just like a Chaos Emerald). Furthermore Chaos Control is defined as the ability to use the Chaos Emeralds to warp time and space - therefore if one can warp time and space without any Emeralds, it is not Chaos Control.

Shadow has indeed been depicted using a fake Emerald. In Sonic Adventure 2, after Sonic used a fake Emerald to save his own butt with Chaos Control, he and Shadow battle it out with both of them using Chaos Control powered by that one fake Emerald. Remember your argument that things have "changed" - therefore you have admitted that Shadow required an Emerald in that game. I also want to remind you that the power of the Chaos Emeralds can be harnessed without physical contact with any Emerald - this has been proven by numerous Super transformations and by uses of Chaos Control itself (the best of all of them is Black Doom saying he needs all 7 Emeralds to warp the Black Comet to the planet surface, then warping the Comet without touching any of the 7 nearby Emeralds). And in Sonic Heroes, if the player uses Team Dark's Team Blast before collecting any Emeralds, Shadow still pulls a green Emerald out of his butt for Chaos Control. While this is evidence that gameplay is not fully canon (along with Amy somehow getting chameleon-like invisibility in Sonic06) it can be explained away as a fake Emerald.

Bottom line is your evidence is weaker because the Emeralds are not accounted for in Forces - therefore Shadow can theoretically have one. And those other times you allege Shadow has used Chaos Control without an Emerald, I have explained many times over too.

And again, if you are serious about proving me wrong, there must be someone on these forums going to the SXSW's Gotta Go Fast: The Official Sonic the Hedgehog Panel on March 16, 2018 which Iizuka will be attending - go ask him: https://schedule.sxsw.com/2018/events/PP99104 - I expect his answer will be something along the lines of what I have said (and you seem to know it being that you are actually trying to discredit him). Otherwise status quo wins, stop spreading your fan theory that he does not need an Emerald.

Coming soon, I'm sure I will eventually have to defend Infinite's need to have either the Phantom Ruby or a fake Phantom Ruby to use his powers. Maybe someone will claim Amy can perform her Hammer Attack without a hammer too.

[Shadowlax]

Wait, wait no. I'm editing this away. No , we have done this before. And that " i care about the balance " line revealed your true intentions behind your entire argument. Which is flawed anyway.

 

[Darth InVaders]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Maybe he's just stronger than him man. That's ok. I like Batman but the flash would body him. That's ok. 

Why are you harping on that? I said "But my preferences for this balance and stability are not justifications for my position, evidence is" my justification for my position

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

And yeah, he doesn't. He openly lies. When the creator openly lies, forgets and changes the lore on a whim. Reminder that classic sonic is from a another reality now, yes he isn't trust worthy. I go by what's presented in official material. Because its clear he isn't thinking about lore details all the time, just makes shit up on the fly and changes his mind when he makes games. So yes. 

You have no credibility on this subject. On that note neither do I. All we have is "Word of God" - in this case Iizuka. The new Classic Sonic being from a different dimension can be explained as the timeline has been altered by the events in Generations so that there is now a new timeline, which would be considered a new dimension (being that when you add time to 3 dimensional space, time itself is considered the 4th dimension). So no, this is not a big enough change to discredit Iizuka on his own work. This is merely an unexplained plot point, it would require more to be either an inconsistency or a plothole. 

Here, have Ian Flynn explain this...

 

Quote

 

by Ian Flynn » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:23 pm 

diamonddeath wrote:Well, I meant for having inconsistencies and such, but I suppose any unexplained plot elements could be discussed. It can be difficult to differ between the two at times. Like I said, any ideas are most likely considered fan ideas, so people's ideas most likely have to be hidden.

I don't mean to be difficult, but no, it's not. 

Plot holes and inconsistencies are notable because there is something directly opposing it. Tails was brown, then was orange. Mogul cursed Mina while he was still imprisoned in the Master Emerald. 

Unresolved plot points have nothing acting against them. They're simply there. And I only harp on this because it's wearying when I have on-going subplots called "plotholes," or when I'm asked about a "plothole" that is really just another dangling idea from the old days. 

 

.http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=118125#p118125

The move Shadow performs has been said by Word of God, by official profiles, and by the character himself to require a Chaos Emerald. However you do not see a Chaos Emerald in a time or two in which he performs it. But, since none of the real Emeralds are accounted for and the fact that fake Emeralds exist, that does not prove that a Chaos Emerald or fake Emerald is not on Shadow's person. Therefore nothing is acting against the established requirement that Shadow needs a Chaos Emerald for Chaos Control - it is just unexplained (and easily hand waved).

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

...

But we aren't even done here, you show a progression and sort of prove my point. The language used with shadow's warping changed to show that it means something different to the degree in which that in later games its clearly indicating his most powerful abilities the abilities to manipulate time, and the ability to do his super big space warp. This didn't include the other various chaos abilities he's been shown to have. Its clearly indicating by your examples warping time and space because shadow doesn't , or rather didn't need the emerald for everything he was doing. Also I don't think quoting old lore , as much as I appreciate such is ... well the best argument now. I'll explain in a second. 

...

No its not. You used languaged that supported my argument for the sonic series changing and what chaos control was changing. And then you said " well if he didn't have an emerald , he must have had one off screen "that's not how this works. You show it , or it wasn't there. Show don't tell story telling my guy. Your other point was " if shadow is stronger then the balance is messed up " 

...

"Progession"? What are you talking about? The language is consistent that the Emeralds enable him to use Chaos Control - he uses the Emeralds to use Chaos Control. Wait are you gonna try to claim that the last one, the Sonic Rivals language "Possessing the power to use the Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." somehow means he does not need Emeralds? Then that means the "power to use the Chaos Emeralds" is even more rare than the ability to perform Chaos Control itself - cause that is literally the only way to read that phrase if all the Chaos Emeralds do is enhance the existing ability to use Chaos Control without them.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't wanna do that. I do not care that much, and I don't think anyone at sega does either my guy

Then quit trying to spread your fan theory

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

... my guy. ...my guy ...my guy

Sorry, that was just too funny

[Shadowlax]

I'm not spreading a fan theory, i'm going by what the games present me. 

You are the ones who is suggesting whenever shadow does something with out an emerald. Even in a game where the emeralds basically don't exist, he must have a chaos emerald

I dunno , that sounds like fanfiction to me. But we have been down this road. I'm done, Ifyou wanna delude yourself into thinking sega cares about that , sure. Go ahead, I got better things to do 

[BaronGrackle]

This all seems unprovable. Even in his Sonic Boom episodes, Shadow could have had a Chaos Emerald in his pocket. Even if we see Shadow teleport while Sonic has all the Chaos Emeralds and Sonic comments that Shadow isn't holding anything, he could still have a fake one behind his left ear.

Sonic Team could tell us that Shadow washes his quills everyday with designer shampoo made out of liquidized fake-emerald flakes, or that he lines his shoe soles with fake-emeralds, or that he was shot with a fake-emerald gun off-screen and there is emerald shrapnel stuck in his body inches from his heart.

We don't know, and Sonic Team won't know either until they decide to think about it.

[Ishmael]

you know shadow's shoes. they're metal you know. if you look at sonic x where he and rouge steal the chaos emeralds from prison island, shadow was able to keep up with sonic without using his shoes. they have to be heavy and when not using jets of flame he has to drag them with him. that means he has a lot more power if he kept with sonic in those heavy things. now take of those heavy metal shoes and replace them with normal ones, i'm pretty sure he'll outrun sonic any time.

just copy this link to see what I mean

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sonic+x+shadow+racing+sonic+on+prison+island&docid=608005732031136043&mid=967ABBDC094D13AB97F9967ABBDC094D13AB97F9&view=detail&FORM=VIRE