What is so bad about Forces gameplay?

[GuyWithThePie]

What's with people starting to say that the boost style only got worse since Unleashed? Generations had some of the best level design for a boost game if you ask me.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

12 minutes ago, GuyWithThePie said:

What's with people starting to say that the boost style only got worse since Unleashed? Generations had some of the best level design for a boost game if you ask me.

The level design is...Weird. They incorporated less obstacles, worse physics, no new mechanics and short levels. The Level design is more open with a plethora of pathways but they don't feel like they have anything in them honestly. 

I think Generations is better in some ways than Unleashed but I don't think it did enough to warrant that success over it. Good game though..

[Diogenes]

Generations managed to open up the levels a bit compared to Unleashed, but it also tried to be more of a platformer, and the boost gameplay really is not suited for actual platforming. Sonic controls poorly at low speeds, most of his abilities are geared towards going fast so the platforming is mostly just normal jumps and homing attacks, and most of the platforming-oriented level design is just jumping from one flat, level surface to another instead of taking advantage of the ways Sonic traditionally interacts with slopes and curves. Unleashed, on the other hand, leans more into chaining actions at high speeds, which is what the boost gameplay is actually good at, which generally makes for a smoother experience. It's debatable which is actually better; personally I think each is flawed enough that I'd rather just dismiss both.

[Razule]

Huh.

[Ultimate Victory 64]

26 minutes ago, Razule said:

Huh.

To be fair this isn't new from what I've seen the guy do

 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Generations managed to open up the levels a bit compared to Unleashed, but it also tried to be more of a platformer, and the boost gameplay really is not suited for actual platforming.

Boost gameplay isn't suited for intensive platforming. Unleashed's platforming wasn't so intrusive, but when it did get a little more complex it typically shifted to 2D gameplay. Unleashed had a consistent flow to it, albeit some parts did break the pace a bit(Rooftop Run Clock Tower segment).

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic controls poorly at low speeds

Unless you're trying to make him turn around in 360 degrees, he would be bad at it. He works for the most part. Although I would have preferred him to have been tighter in past games, it's not as if he needs a 1:1 exact control for his gameplay style.

 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

most of his abilities are geared towards going fast so the platforming is mostly just normal jumps and homing attacks, and most of the platforming-oriented level design is just jumping from one flat, level surface to another instead of taking advantage of the ways Sonic traditionally interacts with slopes and curves.

Yeah...Sonic has pretty normal jumps throughout all of his games unless we're counting Sonic 3. Erm...What do you exactly mean by "normal jumps?" kind of vague there...

I'd say the boost games(Unleashed) takes full advantage of his abilities tailored to his specific design, not just traditional. Loops are still abundant, slopes are there but this isn't regular Sonic anymore. 

50 minutes ago, Ultimate Victory 64 said:

To be fair this isn't new from what I've seen the guy do

 

Beating a stage with one hand with the boost is common for at least the first stage(Generations, Forces and Colors make it way easier).

 

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Unleashed, on the other hand, leans more into chaining actions at high speeds, which is what the boost gameplay is actually good at, which generally makes for a smoother experience.

By chaining you mean things such as Quick step or Homing attack? Not sure what you mean by this.

[GuyWithThePie]

Hmm, the more I think about it, you guys might be right. Maybe Unleashed's level design is more suited to the boost gameplay style.

My only gripe with Unleashed's daytime stages was those moments when Sonic's boost felt a bit too fast. I'm kinda glad they toned it down in Generations.

[Sonikko]

2 minutes ago, GuyWithThePie said:

Hmm, the more I think about it, you guys might be right. Maybe Unleashed's level design is more suited to the boost gameplay style.

My only gripe with Unleashed's daytime stages was those moments when Sonic's boost felt a bit too fast. I'm kinda glad they toned it down in Generations.

And that's actually a misconception. The boost in Generations is either as fast as it is in Unleashed or actually faster. The differences are two:
Unleashed played a lot more with it's FoV so that it feels like you're going faster than you actually are.

Generations runs at a constant 30fps on console, and at a smooth 60fps on pc, so you have plenty more time to react to obstacles and input is much more responsive.

Those are the main differences between Generations and Unleashed if you're looking strictly at gameplay technicalities.

[KHCast]

3 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Boost gameplay isn't suited for intensive platforming. Unleashed's platforming wasn't so intrusive, but when it did get a little more complex it typically shifted to 2D gameplay. Unleashed had a consistent flow to it, albeit some parts did break the pace a bit(Rooftop Run Clock Tower segment).

Yeah, boost gameplay isn't meant for actual not shallow 3D platforming. Using 2D as a crutch defeats the purpose of being a 3D platformer. Introducing traditional 3D styles of gameplay with the boost, (like in Gens) ultimately is a clash between two styles of design. If we need to always switch to 2D when we want our platforming in 3D sonic games, that's shit. 

[Sonikko]

8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Generations managed to open up the levels a bit compared to Unleashed, but it also tried to be more of a platformer, and the boost gameplay really is not suited for actual platforming. Sonic controls poorly at low speeds, most of his abilities are geared towards going fast so the platforming is mostly just normal jumps and homing attacks, and most of the platforming-oriented level design is just jumping from one flat, level surface to another instead of taking advantage of the ways Sonic traditionally interacts with slopes and curves. Unleashed, on the other hand, leans more into chaining actions at high speeds, which is what the boost gameplay is actually good at, which generally makes for a smoother experience. It's debatable which is actually better; personally I think each is flawed enough that I'd rather just dismiss both.

Generations did offer more "traditional platforming" in its 3D and 2D sections, but the thing that makes it stand up against Unleashed to me is that those 3D sections always offer you a way to blast through them, given that you have the right knowledge of the character's handling. They're few and far in between, but the ones that are there are the best the boost formula ever offered.

You're never forced to slow down and platform in 3D, there's always a way to keep going with the flow, even if it's not immediately available to the player. It's something you have to think through, and it leads to experimenting with the air boost and sloped surfaces, which would be a nice corrispective to the classic gameplay in a game focused on speed instead of momentum.

Unleashed on the other hand was more of a "rythm" game, or a long interactive QTE cutscene, it was less about experimenting and finding your way through the stage, and more a task of memorization and muscle memory.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

4 hours ago, Sonikko said:

And that's actually a misconception. The boost in Generations is either as fast as it is in Unleashed or actually faster. The differences are two:
Unleashed played a lot more with it's FoV so that it feels like you're going faster than you actually are.

Generations runs at a constant 30fps on console, and at a smooth 60fps on pc, so you have plenty more time to react to obstacles and input is much more responsive.

Those are the main differences between Generations and Unleashed if you're looking strictly at gameplay technicalities.

Its faster than Unleashed but it doesn't give that impression at all, like you explained. Even the things that seem little does add to the flair to the game. It's similar to how Sonic could outrun the screen in his older games.

1 hour ago, Sonikko said:

Generations did offer more "traditional platforming" in its 3D and 2D sections, but the thing that makes it stand up against Unleashed to me is that those 3D sections always offer you a way to blast through them, given that you have the right knowledge of the character's handling. They're few and far in between, but the ones that are there are the best the boost formula ever offered.

You're never forced to slow down and platform in 3D, there's always a way to keep going with the flow, even if it's not immediately available to the player. It's something you have to think through, and it leads to experimenting with the air boost and sloped surfaces, which would be a nice corrispective to the classic gameplay in a game focused on speed instead of momentum.

Unleashed on the other hand was more of a "rythm" game, or a long interactive QTE cutscene, it was less about experimenting and finding your way through the stage, and more a task of memorization and muscle memory.

You can still do that in many stages, though that largely dependson how far you went to play with the games physics and mechanics. Unleashed has a lot of that.

Adding more traditional platforming for the sake of it with this style of gameplay is pace breaking(he needs more platforming gimmicks exclusive to him). I have no issue with having an abundance of them just it has to actually flow well with the level. 

"Unleashed on the other hand was more of a "rythm" game, or a long interactive QTE cutscene, it was less about experimenting and finding your way through the stage, and more a task of memorization and muscle memory"

Why wouldn't that apply to all the boost games? Is it just because you're spamming the jump button more due to the added platforming segments(Crisis City). 

Memorization and especially muscle memory isn't exclusive to a Sonic game, but it is one of the important factors to his formula(typically).

QTE's don't control the game for you. You have to make decisions on which optimal routes, shortcut and inputs to make to make your best time within a stage. The game won't be beat by just boosting along all happily nor acquire you the best time.

[Sonikko]

1 hour ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Its faster than Unleashed but it doesn't give that impression at all, like you explained. Even the things that seem little does add to the flair to the game. It's similar to how Sonic could outrun the screen in his older games.

You can still do that in many stages, though that largely dependson how far you went to play with the games physics and mechanics. Unleashed has a lot of that.

Adding more traditional platforming for the sake of it with this style of gameplay is pace breaking(he needs more platforming gimmicks exclusive to him). I have no issue with having an abundance of them just it has to actually flow well with the level. 

"Unleashed on the other hand was more of a "rythm" game, or a long interactive QTE cutscene, it was less about experimenting and finding your way through the stage, and more a task of memorization and muscle memory"

Why wouldn't that apply to all the boost games? Is it just because you're spamming the jump button more due to the added platforming segments(Crisis City). 

Memorization and especially muscle memory isn't exclusive to a Sonic game, but it is one of the important factors to his formula(typically).

QTE's don't control the game for you. You have to make decisions on which optimal routes, shortcut and inputs to make to make your best time within a stage. The game won't be beat by just boosting along all happily nor acquire you the best time.

 

There is no single instance in Unleashed where you could do something even remotely similar to the first 15 seconds of this video.

That's fast paced 3D platforming.

As I said, these sections require the user to be highly competent, but so did the classic games when it came to going very fast, and they're unfortunately few and far in between.

Some of the 2D sections are blockier and slower, namely Crisis City's stomping gimmick and most of the classic stages, I'll give you that, but Generations did 3D best than any other boost game.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

3 hours ago, Sonikko said:

 

There is no single instance in Unleashed where you could do something even remotely similar to the first 15 seconds of this video.

That's fast paced 3D platforming.

As I said, these sections require the user to be highly competent, but so did the classic games when it came to going very fast, and they're unfortunately few and far in between.

Some of the 2D sections are blockier and slower, namely Crisis City's stomping gimmick and most of the classic stages, I'll give you that, but Generations did 3D best than any other boost game.

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Generations did 3D best than any other boost game.

I'm still going to have to disagree with that. Open level design can't just be the main factor nor 3D platforming. There are a lot of issues I have with Generations that overall makes it second place within the boost games. The lack of actual hazards, very little challenging levels, worse physics and even the mechanics of it's entirety really makes the game literally a nerfed port of Unleashed. Not to mention that most if not all of the level gimmicks aren't really new, which ends up making the experience quite samey with both Modern and Classic.

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There is no single instance in Unleashed where you could do something even remotely similar to the first 15 seconds of this video.

As in having the levels being more open? Brainuu using the stomp, boost jumps and shortcuts masterfully? Unleashed already achieved that to a higher level due to it's difficulty.

The sense scope and largeness of levels like Seaside Hill or sky sanctuary does make Generations more appealing on first glance. Other than that, I don't see what is so impressive about Generations being this king of the boost games when it doesn't do a whole lot in that department.

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As I said, these sections require the user to be highly competent, but so did the classic games when it came to going very fast, and they're unfortunately few and far in between.

They don't require awareness of your surroundings, which is what many other games other than Gens or Colors have done.

One of the very few things I can praise of Generations is that because of the levels being less linear(on some instances) speed pads were reduced and slopes were added more.

In any case, playing Sonic games casually aren't inherently input intensive. It's the player that actually has to take initiative to break the boundaries of the levels rather flowing with it. 

[KHCast]

I'm interacting more with Gens compared to Unleashed when it comes to its gameplay, so to me, that makes it the better made 3D game. Boosting endlessly with only a few sections of interaction(that are usually 2D), isn't as fun sounding 

[Sonikko]

3 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

I'm still going to have to disagree with that. Open level design can't just be the main factor nor 3D platforming. There are a lot of issues I have with Generations that overall makes it second place within the boost games. The lack of actual hazards, very little challenging levels, worse physics and even the mechanics of it's entirety really makes the game literally a nerfed port of Unleashed. Not to mention that most if not all of the level gimmicks aren't really new, which ends up making the experience quite samey with both Modern and Classic.

As in having the levels being more open? Brainuu using the stomp, boost jumps and shortcuts masterfully? Unleashed already achieved that to a higher level due to it's difficulty.

The sense scope and largeness of levels like Seaside Hill or sky sanctuary does make Generations more appealing on first glance. Other than that, I don't see what is so impressive about Generations being this king of the boost games when it doesn't do a whole lot in that department.

They don't require awareness of your surroundings, which is what many other games other than Gens or Colors have done.

One of the very few things I can praise of Generations is that because of the levels being less linear(on some instances) speed pads were reduced and slopes were added more.

In any case, playing Sonic games casually aren't inherently input intensive. It's the player that actually has to take initiative to break the boundaries of the levels rather flowing with it. 

You're posting videos of the DLC acts which were notoriously different than anything you could find in the main campaign. The core game is nothing like that Holoska act you posted.

 

 

I apologize, it's very hard to find a glitchless speedrun. But as you can see here, the 3D sections (this applies to the DLC acts too btw, exception made for those drift based stages, or the homing attack stage in Spagonia) have very little to offer in terms of gameplay. Compare those to Generations and it's clear that the 3D gameplay is more meaty and thought out. Speedrunning the 3D sections in Generations might be considered similar to the classic games. You need to know the layout and physics well and use them to your advantage.

Speedrunning in Unleashed consists either of glitching the game with M-speed or just running in a straight line, quickstepping or stopping to stomp on a button to open a door. That's all there is to the 3D sections lol.

Also, the 2D ones are more fluid in Unleashed, I'll give you that. I never liked the 2D sections in Generations anyway, but at least I feel like I'm playing the game, meanwhile Unleashed feels on autopilot for most of the time.

Especially at 60fps.

[Azure P]

It's pretty much a meme at this point.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

3 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

You're posting videos of the DLC acts which were notoriously different than anything you could find in the main campaign. The core game is nothing like that Holoska act you posted.

 

 

I apologize, it's very hard to find a glitchless speedrun. But as you can see here, the 3D sections (this applies to the DLC acts too btw, exception made for those drift based stages, or the homing attack stage in Spagonia) have very little to offer in terms of gameplay. Compare those to Generations and it's clear that the 3D gameplay is more meaty and thought out. Speedrunning the 3D sections in Generations might be considered similar to the classic games. You need to know the layout and physics well and use them to your advantage.

Speedrunning in Unleashed consists either of glitching the game with M-speed or just running in a straight line, quickstepping or stopping to stomp on a button to open a door. That's all there is to the 3D sections lol.

Also, the 2D ones are more fluid in Unleashed, I'll give you that. I never liked the 2D sections in Generations anyway, but at least I feel like I'm playing the game, meanwhile Unleashed feels on autopilot for most of the time.

Especially at 60fps.

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Compare those to Generations and it's clear that the 3D gameplay is more meaty and thought out.

I fully agree. The 3D space of Generations(Seaside Hill, parts of Chemical Plant and Sky Sanctuary) definitely is the highlight of Generations.

Though, Generations removes about much of the good challenges when it came to speedrunning the game. It gets a little boring when there isn't anything in your way, which if you've already mastered Unleashed, Generations won't be that much of change other than looking for the desired route. When you really breakdown Generations, it all comes down to the game catering less to the speedrunning folks and more to the casuals who love exploring routes. Generations sacrificed quality in turn for exploration.

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Speedrunning in Unleashed consists either of glitching the game with M-speed or just running in a straight line, quickstepping or stopping to stomp on a button to open a door. That's all there is to the 3D sections lol.

That is a major simplification of Speedrunning Unleashed(excluding Glitches from all games). 

It's not like you're doing each individual sequences one at a time. It's all of it put into one package to test you. 

The problem with Unleashed videos is that because of all the access to glitches, it's hard to discern what can be noted as depth or not. This right here show one of many instances of learning how to master Sonic's potential(If you can't tell, In Unleashed you can actually keep up your momentum at a better rate than in Generations). 

 

[Sonikko]

57 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

It's not like you're doing each individual sequences one at a time. It's all of it put into one package to test you. 

The problem with Unleashed videos is that because of all the access to glitches, it's hard to discern what can be noted as depth or not. This right here show one of many instances of learning how to master Sonic's potential(If you can't tell, In Unleashed you can actually keep up your momentum at a better rate than in Generations). 

 

It's not that it carries momentum better, that guy is using the M-speed glitch. If I'm not wrong the air drag is almost the same between Generations and Unleashed, Unleashed just had a slightly more powerful air boost.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

50 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

It's not that it carries momentum better, that guy is using the M-speed glitch. If I'm not wrong the air drag is almost the same between Generations and Unleashed, Unleashed just had a slightly more powerful air boost.

A little bit.

The Stompto Slide retains the current momentum and Air boost is more powerful than ground boosting. Using Stomp after Air Boosting will allow Sonic to reach heights like that when used properly. 

At 0:11-0:18 there is a clear difference between the boost jumping and Air Boost momentum.

The problem isn't the glitches(although there are some moments when he uses it here. But you can do everything without it. It's just a slower process and you'd have to stomp more than once) it's that stomp is a very very broken mechanic in Unleashed. It's similar to Sonic Adventure's Spin dash how you can keep the momentum of the speed up by un-spindashing.

Not only that, you can even use stomp slide to go as fast as boosting when on an incline or a slope.

 Stomp, Slide and Air Boosting are incredibly broken mechanics. You don't even need M or D speed to almost outrun those running eggman robo sequences.

This is one of my reasons for preferring Unleashed to Gens. The control you have over momentum is crazy.

[Eternal EX]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:06 PM, Diogenes said:

Generations managed to open up the levels a bit compared to Unleashed, but it also tried to be more of a platformer, and the boost gameplay really is not suited for actual platforming. Sonic controls poorly at low speeds, most of his abilities are geared towards going fast so the platforming is mostly just normal jumps and homing attacks, and most of the platforming-oriented level design is just jumping from one flat, level surface to another instead of taking advantage of the ways Sonic traditionally interacts with slopes and curves. Unleashed, on the other hand, leans more into chaining actions at high speeds, which is what the boost gameplay is actually good at, which generally makes for a smoother experience. It's debatable which is actually better; personally I think each is flawed enough that I'd rather just dismiss both.

THIS! Literllay everything he said about Forces. It's clunky as a platformer. The random surge from half speed to near full speed makes no sense. Sonic and Custom handle pretty bad at slow speed, and not much better at full speed. Gens got it right. And where the hell is DRIFTING? Also Custom's whip is....well.....it sucks. It's like a pissed off parent swinging at everything. (Cobermani *youtuber* put it best). The whip has no control. But once you get use to the questionable controls, it not that bad.