So, the reason why Infinite became evil...

[Swing]

I still think we can compare those two with each other. Both of them really do not have any real motivation for their actions. Both just want to destroy the world just for the heck of it. Their just two over the top, violent edg lords with out any charm and likability. 

[Shadowlax]

On 11/18/2017 at 9:16 AM, Swing said:

I still think we can compare those two with each other. Both of them really do not have any real motivation for their actions. Both just want to destroy the world just for the heck of it. Their just two over the top, violent edg lords with out any charm and likability. 

Late response

Shadow wants to destroy the world, one because the doctor... the older doctor manipulated his memories. But also that was the thing that houses his misery, the earth is the home of the people who killed his friends and trapped him in the a government basement for half a century to be used as a weapon at some point. He had no connection to the planet and as far as he was concerned it was full of evil shitty people. Obviously he would learn that he was somewhat wrong about the amount of shit people, and compltely wrong about wanted to blow up the planet. But that's motivation none the less. 

 

Infinite was to fuck shit up.... just because. Remember even before the mask he decided to fuck up the planet... because. He has no clear goal or reason. He just wants to, he has little to no motivation. the " him being weak" thing in the end has no barring on his characterization because it doesn't come up after shadow whopped him, and he never addresses shadow again. So his motivation is " because"

So one has motivation, one does not. Also people like shadow just fine, he's the most popular non sonic sonic character. If you wanna not like shadow... that's totally fine. But don't lie about the character 

[DamninalsBP]

I feel like you guys missed the point of why he actually became infinite.. in fact i think a lot of people did and i dont blame you guys cause Sonic did a horrible job of portraying it in the game.. most people see it as his only reason is because he was called weak.. this is NOT TRUE... well atleast from what i took from it... if you paid attention to the voice acting and the dialog before the Shadow Completely annihilated Infinite. he said that Shadow "Destroyed his Squad" Not Defeated, not Beaten, not took down, they where DESTROYED, AKA Shadow killed them all. so Infinte Frustrated and angry at shadow he tried to Avenge them but then Got Utterly beaten to a pulp and Humiliated him.. so to rap it up: basically Infinite could not even avenge his friends and potential family's death AND he was humilated by shadow. which is why he had that Psychological Breakdown on being called weak

this is what i took from it because it fits the theme of Friendship that Forces follows.. and it makes Infinite's motives and action makes sense. these are the reasons why he killed the Avatars allys and left him/her alive because he was Trying to make him/her feel the same pain he did, he also trys to break sonic as well but fails cause apparently sonic is Immune to literally any form of torture. ((jab at that cut scene)).. i honest like Forces for this stuff.. to bad the writing is so bad because the ideas are great, its just how its presented that makes this scene suffer.. 

Still wont Accuse the Tails scene and Infinites premature Exit.. seriously what the hell sega?

On 11/15/2017 at 6:16 AM, Mark1 said:

I’ll give it to this backstory. They managed to get other characters involved again - even if it wasn’t executed well.

Infinite’s fragile ego over a minor comment makes this seem laughable for a new villain who was meant to be taken seriously. Think they were aiming for something here - but it was poorly done.

Props to them for making Shadow more likeable again though - his character is the most tolerable I’ve seen since Sonic ‘06. 

i think my previous post is what they were going for

Edited February 16, 2018 by DamninalsBP
forgot a word

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, DamninalsBP said:

if you paid attention to the voice acting and the dialog before the Shadow Completely annihilated Infinite. he said that Shadow "Destroyed his Squad" Not Defeated, not Beaten, not took down, they where DESTROYED, AKA Shadow killed them all.

That's a pretty big leap to make. Even considering that this is Shadow and that the game has a pretty serious case of edgelordism I find it hard to believe they'd have Shadow straight up murder some dudes.

2 minutes ago, DamninalsBP said:

so Infinte Frustrated and angry at shadow he tried to Avenge them but then Got Utterly beaten to a pulp and Humiliated him.. so to rap it up: basically Infinite could not even avenge his friends and potential family's death AND he was humilated by shadow. which is why he had that Psychological Breakdown on being called weak

I don't buy it. He barely even seems to care about the squad at all; he just sort of waves off Eggman dumping on them and he doesn't promise revenge for their defeat or anything, he just expects to beat Shadow because he's the ultimate mercenary. And after that it's all about his bruised ego, weak this, weak that, ooh now I've got a magic rock so I'm the strongest and fuck everyone else.

If that's actually what they intended, then they failed so hard that, even considering that intent, I don't consider it a valid reading of the character.

[DamninalsBP]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's a pretty big leap to make. Even considering that this is Shadow and that the game has a pretty serious case of edgelordism I find it hard to believe they'd have Shadow straight up murder some dudes.

I don't buy it. He barely even seems to care about the squad at all; he just sort of waves off Eggman dumping on them and he doesn't promise revenge for their defeat or anything, he just expects to beat Shadow because he's the ultimate mercenary. And after that it's all about his bruised ego, weak this, weak that, ooh now I've got a magic rock so I'm the strongest and fuck everyone else.

If that's actually what they intended, then they failed so hard that, even considering that intent, I don't consider it a valid reading of the character.

the Exact quote was "You. You destroyed my Squad. I'll show you why the call me the Ultimate Mercenary! take THIS!" there was Anger in those Quotes as well.. and if he did not care very much of his Squad he would not mention them at all.. he would have just skipped to the rest of the line. although i will agree that once again the Writing of the game is Horrid and the scene could have been more dramatic if they wrote him screaming that would have his revenge instead of the whole "weak" speach

I know deep in my GUT that this is what they inteaded to do because of the infromation givin to us.. its just that the writters where so bad that they did not portay the scene as well as it should have.. remember this was written by the Same idiots that made Tails Piss himself infront of Chaos-0 DESPITE THE FACT HE TOOK ON CHAOS-4 IN A PREVIOUS GAME

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's a pretty big leap to make. Even considering that this is Shadow and that the game has a pretty serious case of edgelordism I find it hard to believe they'd have Shadow straight up murder some dudes.

 

also may i remind you that this game still exists https://goo.gl/images/gB6iCF

[Kuzu]

Oh my god, we actually are getting apologists for Infinite...

[DiamondX]

I'm not saying I'm right, but I feel like he mentioned them for another reason. Pretty much, what he means IMO is this:

"You're pretty strong, but not enough to face the Ultimate Mercenary. Take this!"

[Splash the Otter]

43 minutes ago, DamninalsBP said:

I feel like you guys missed the point of why he actually became infinite.. in fact i think a lot of people did and i dont blame you guys cause Sonic did a horrible job of portraying it in the game.. most people see it as his only reason is because he was called weak.. this is NOT TRUE... well atleast from what i took from it... if you paid attention to the voice acting and the dialog before the Shadow Completely annihilated Infinite. he said that Shadow "Destroyed his Squad" Not Defeated, not Beaten, not took down, they where DESTROYED, AKA Shadow killed them all. so Infinte Frustrated and angry at shadow he tried to Avenge them but then Got Utterly beaten to a pulp and Humiliated him.. so to rap it up: basically Infinite could not even avenge his friends and potential family's death AND he was humilated by shadow. which is why he had that Psychological Breakdown on being called weak

This is pretty much what I was going to say. I see the "I am not weak" scene as Infinite berating himself for being too weak to protect or avenge his squad. To me (and I'm sure some people will disagree, but so what) Infinite is a tragic villain.

[DamninalsBP]

3 minutes ago, DiamondX the Fighter said:

I'm not saying I'm right, but I feel like he mentioned them for another reason. Pretty much, what he means IMO is this:

"You're pretty strong, but not enough to face the Ultimate Mercenary. Take this!"

Yeah i can see how people would think that.. i still kinda see it the other way.. but yeah.. everything wrong with the origins to Infinite is mostly due to poor writting.. i do hope that sonic team would Redeam them selves with more story DLC involving the character, either by his origin or alteast to find out what his fate is.. Seriously Sega promoted the character To much to have him just Fade away without confirmation on what the heck happened to him,

1 minute ago, Splash the Otter said:

This is pretty much what I was going to say. I see the "I am not weak" scene as Infinite berating himself for being too weak to protect or avenge his squad. To me (and I'm sure some people will disagree, but so what) Infinite is a tragic villain.

THANK YOU

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, DamninalsBP said:

the Exact quote was "You. You destroyed my Squad. I'll show you why the call me the Ultimate Mercenary! take THIS!" there was Anger in those Quotes as well.. and if he did not care very much of his Squad he would not mention them at all.. he would have just skipped to the rest of the line.

Oooor he just cares a bit but not so much that it's responsible for his breakdown? Because, again, that's literally all he ever says regarding them. His breakdown is entirely centered around him being weak and afraid and it's not contextualized as "I was too weak to save them" or "I was too weak to get revenge", it's entirely about his fear and bruised ego, and so he becomes the strongest asshole so he can inflict fear instead of feeling it himself.

7 minutes ago, DamninalsBP said:

also may i remind you that this game still exists https://goo.gl/images/gB6iCF

Yeah a game where, when you shoot the human characters, they just fall over and groan instead of dying. Because even in Ow the Edge they're not going to have Shadow straight up murder people (it's always ok to kill monsters though).

[DamninalsBP]

15 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah a game where, when you shoot the human characters, they just fall over and groan instead of dying. Because even in Ow the Edge they're not going to have Shadow straight up murder people (it's always ok to kill monsters though).

it is also the same game where you Try to kill the President and try to destroy the world with a Massive Laser that killed millions In the pure evil story. and Kill eggman with a karate chop

look Trying to Defended Shadow's Violent and ambivalent nature is pretty dumb when Ow the Edge game exists. 

if you truly believe that the weak thing is a actual logical reason for his transformation into the character you see in the game despite the evident presented and not even to mention the lyrics of his theme than thats your opinion. i am just stating what i got out of it.

[Splash the Otter]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah a game where, when you shoot the human characters, they just fall over and groan instead of dying. Because even in Ow the Edge they're not going to have Shadow straight up murder people (it's always ok to kill monsters though).

To be fair, Shadow didn't fight those human characters offscreen. And as DamnimalsBP said, some of the story paths end with Shadow killing Eggman.

[Diogenes]

17 minutes ago, DamninalsBP said:

it is also the same game where you Try to kill the President and try to destroy the world with a Massive Laser that killed millions In the pure evil story. and Kill eggman with a karate chop

look Trying to Defended Shadow's Violent and ambivalence nature is pretty dumb when Ow the Edge game exists.

I'm absolutely not saying that Shadow isn't violent. I'm saying Sonic Team doesn't want one of their most popular characters in a series for children to kill people. Aside from Eggman, maybe, none of those things actually result in any deaths (not even using the Eclipse Cannon). They allow him to be "evil" but only to an extent which is still cartoonish and essentially consequence-free.

Quote

if you truly believe that the weak thing is a actual logical reason for his transformation into the character you see in the game

Oh, no, it's absolute trash. I'm just acknowledging the trash that it is, and not stretching the facts to come up with a better explanation.

Quote

and not even to mention the lyrics of his theme

If anything I'd say the lyrics support my interpretation. It's basically all self aggrandizement, 50 different ways of him saying "I am the strongest!", and hardly anything you could even theoretically link to the rest of his squad.

[GentlemanX]

Look, I love Infinite. I think he's a great toady villain and really want to see him show up as one of Eggman's lackeys in future titles. His arrogance gives him this great voice that offers some great dialogue you can't get out of Orbot and Cubot, or even really Eggman. He's keeps things on task allowing Eggman to seem more... professional? I can see a lot of fun to be had with him interacting with Orbot and Cubot, a mixture of annoyance and fear between the three of them. I love his interactions with Sonic and Silver and would like to see how his personality bounces off the rest in the future.

But his backstory is bad. While Rise of Infinite does a good job of establishing why Infinite is willing to work with Eggman unlike other "mobians", Episode Shadow gives him this bratty breakdown which, while perhaps makes sense from a real world perspective, diminishes his effectiveness as this smarmy... know it all? that we enjoy seeing beaten time and again. It's the right sort of idea, but the wrong execution. Given how little the Jackal Squad play in his dialogue both in Episode Shadow and Rise of Infinite, not to mention their complete absence from the main game, makes me think they really aren't that important to Infinite. They're mentioned likely only to further emphasize how much Infinite feels defeated, that he had a whole team and couldn't beat Shadow.

[Almar]

Are we really going to focus on non-canon routes from a meme game?

[DamninalsBP]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If anything I'd say the lyrics support my interpretation. It's basically all self aggrandizement, 50 different ways of him saying "I am the strongest!", and hardly anything you could even theoretically link to the rest of his squad.

im not denieing the him having a massive egos but there is more than just that.

"Cause I was born in this pain, It only hurts if you let it," i see this as part of the song in referance to both shadow killing Jackel squad, and he him killing the Randos in front of the avatar and how his humanity is pretty much lost now

and this part even ADDS MORE TO MINE

 

When everything you know has come and gone,

(You are at your lowest, I am rising higher)

Only scars remain of who I was

(What I find in the ashes, you lose in the fire!)

When there's no one left to carry on,

(This is an illusion, open up your eyes and...)

This pain (persists),

I can't (resist),

But that's what it takes to be Infinite

[Salamander]

8 hours ago, DamninalsBP said:

"You. You destroyed my Squad. I'll show you why the call me the Ultimate Mercenary! take THIS!"

Another interpretation which, I'm afraid, opposes your theory is that the defeat of Infinite's squad hurt his pride more than anything else.

[Splash the Otter]

22 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Another interpretation which, I'm afraid, opposes your theory is that the defeat of Infinite's squad hurt his pride more than anything else.

In the Japanese script he says "How could you...how could you do this to my henchmen...!" It's pretty clear he's upset about what happened to his squad.

[DamninalsBP]

3 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

In the Japanese script he says "How could you...how could you do this to my henchmen...!" It's pretty clear he's upset about what happened to his squad.

Well dang I did not even think of checking the original Japanese scripted! Thank you for that. That's even better XD

[Iko]

I agree with DamninalsBP, honestly that's my interpretation too... I knida like Infinite as a villain, not because he's edgy (I even think he's more cringy than edgy), but because he's like the most unique villain in the series so far, and I'll explain why I think this:

-Eggman: I want to conquer the world, build Eggmanland or the Eggman Empire! - he also has the tools to do this and he almost managed to succeed several times.

-Chaos: Monster gone berserk

-Shadow: I'm the ultimate life form, I have chaos powers, and I'll kill everyone because that's what I must do - programmed to do so, he also has those powers he claim to have

-Zavok and the Deadly 6: I'm evil because I'm the bad guy of the game, I'm strong because the bad guy must be strong in fictional stories

And every other villain just follow this trend, with some small variations, except Knuckles in Sonic 3 that has an actually interesting backstory, and Fang that just wants your emeralds.

-Infinite: I'm a failure, but it hurts to admit that, so, no, I'm not a failure, I prefer to become someone else's tool because I'm so embarsassed of how much of a failure I am, and I prefer to die rather than staying the failure I am - then he obtains amazing powers - I'm the strongest thing alive, I'll demonstrate how strong I am to everyone, I'll teach Eggman how to not fail anymore - and through the whole game you are exposed to how much he's still a failure, nothing has changed, the only thing that has changed is how he hides himself behind a mask and that power that's not even his own.

Basically, Infinite is someone with psychological problems, he does evil thing because he doesn't even know what's its purpose, what he's supposed to be, he doesn't even care of being evil, he just wants to demonstrate he's not a failure, trying to hide the evidence and failing once again.

This said, Infinite is NOT one of my favorite characters, I prefer anyone else of the recurring cast to him, but I find it interesting that he's a villain with a slighty different motivation and personality than any other villain and character in the series... I prefer the character having psychological issues than being another Deadly 6 "I'm evil because every game must have a bad guy", or another generic "I want to conquer/destroy the world for egocentric reasons".

Infinite doesn't even want to destroy the world at all, he just want to demonstrate the doctor that he's worthy, he just wants to complete the plan, he kills people and destroy stuff because it's part of Eggman's plan, not because he wants to - and this fits his mercenary nature.

I like how hypocrital he is when Eggman tries to give up and Infinite acts like if he never failed and teaches him how to not fail. He is a disgusting and pathetic character, that's why I think he is decent, because it's such a variation from the usual super cool villains. I can't see Infinite as cool, no matter how much I try to.

Another thing is that with Infinite, Shadow finally returned to act as an antagonist again; since he's now a friend of Sonic, he can't be the bad guy to him anymore, so with infinite (and his squad), he can now have a different character to be hostile to, and return to his old bad guy personality from Sonic Adventure 2; I think Infinite as rival gives Shadow a better purpose than him being a GUN agent at the order of some military organization... that's just out of character, Shadow being at the orders of some higher authority. Obviously Sonic Forces delivers this horribly, in the worst way possible, but I think this has potential in future games... I always thought that the whole Team Dark and GUN thing just doesn't fit Shadow at all.

Not to mention that the phantom ruby's powers offer some interesting potential level design and gameplay wise (I'm not refering to Sonic Forces, potential for future games if he's going to return); you can transform the level layout and make surreal stuff happen, this may lead to some interesting gimmicks.

IMO Infinite has potential, he's just very poorly written.

[DabigRG]

On 2/15/2018 at 11:19 PM, DamninalsBP said:

I feel like you guys missed the point of why he actually became infinite.. in fact i think a lot of people did and i dont blame you guys cause Sonic did a horrible job of portraying it in the game.. most people see it as his only reason is because he was called weak.. this is NOT TRUE... well atleast from what i took from it... if you paid attention to the voice acting and the dialog before the Shadow Completely annihilated Infinite. he said that Shadow "Destroyed his Squad" Not Defeated, not Beaten, not took down, they where DESTROYED, AKA Shadow killed them all. so Infinte Frustrated and angry at shadow he tried to Avenge them but then Got Utterly beaten to a pulp and Humiliated him.. so to rap it up: basically Infinite could not even avenge his friends and potential family's death AND he was humilated by shadow. which is why he had that Psychological Breakdown on being called weak

this is what i took from it because it fits the theme of Friendship that Forces follows.. and it makes Infinite's motives and action makes sense. these are the reasons why he killed the Avatars allys and left him/her alive because he was Trying to make him/her feel the same pain he did, he also trys to break sonic as well but fails cause apparently sonic is Immune to literally any form of torture. ((jab at that cut scene)).. i honest like Forces for this stuff.. to bad the writing is so bad because the ideas are great, its just how its presented that makes this scene suffer.. 

Still wont Accuse the Tails scene and Infinites premature Exit.. seriously what the hell sega?

i think my previous post is what they were going for

Yeah, I'm a little surprised nobody else seemed to pay that any attention.

13 hours ago, Iko said:

I agree with DamninalsBP, honestly that's my interpretation too... I knida like Infinite as a villain, not because he's edgy (I even think he's more cringy than edgy), but because he's like the most unique villain in the series so far, and I'll explain why I think this:

-Eggman: I want to conquer the world, build Eggmanland or the Eggman Empire! - he also has the tools to do this and he almost managed to succeed several times.

-Chaos: Monster gone berserk

-Shadow: I'm the ultimate life form, I have chaos powers, and I'll kill everyone because that's what I must do - programmed to do so, he also has those powers he claim to have

-Zavok and the Deadly 6: I'm evil because I'm the bad guy of the game, I'm strong because the bad guy must be strong in fictional stories

And every other villain just follow this trend, with some small variations, except Knuckles in Sonic 3 that has an actually interesting backstory, and Fang that just wants your emeralds.

 

To be more specific, Chaos is a mutated Chao that turned into his kind's protector rather than just some monster.

And the Deadly Six, while certainly not without their, well, deadlier traits, were primarily in it to get revenge on Eggman for enslaving them and using the Extractor to make themselves stronger while destroying what they thought was his world was a educated way to do it. 

Also, I think you might be overly shortselling a few of the villains you didn't name.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Shadow did not kill anyone.

lol.

Edit: At least not in this game.

[DamninalsBP]

On 2/18/2018 at 8:39 PM, Mayor D said:

Shadow did not kill anyone.

lol.

Edit: At least not in this game.

He killed Squad jackel.. obviously not on screen but they were and I quote once more "Destroyed" 

[Diogenes]

Words can have more than one meaning, you know. There's no reason to assume they're using "destroyed" to mean "killed" over "soundly defeated".

[DamninalsBP]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Words can have more than one meaning, you know. There's no reason to assume they're using "destroyed" to mean "killed" over "soundly defeated".

Yeah but if they were only "defeated" then where are they now.. what's the point of introduceing the squad in the comics, referencing them IN Game and then having them never show up to help their leader in the game?. It was never stated that they ran away. the Reason is because they got the Knuckles tribe treatment. They met their "DESTRUCTION" Sega is not afraid to go to darker areas with the Sonic series, hell in lost world Eggman threatened Genocide. So having a character who in character is a killing machine and can nuke area with his own power kill a squad of mercenaries off screen is totally something that would happen.