Let's take a look at Sonic forces Stages

[sonicdudeatdawn]

I've been seeing some negative reception towards Stages we've seen in Sonic forces, and a common complaint is that the level design is absolute pants and the 3d is too automatic. I'll analyse every stage we have so far and look at their ups, and downs and all arounds hur hur 

• Let's look at classic green hill zone first

1. No challenge just go where the game tells you
2. Springs tell you to jump
3. Platforming is pants 
4. no encouragement to take alternate paths
5. enemies are just distractions

Classic sonic's green lacks character or proper challenge, and its a boring trog through a done-to-death stage. F-

• Modern City heights take the stage please

1. The 3d is well done with keeping sonic going fast 
2. the 2d is littered with spikes Why?
3. the route taken in the 2d section does keep the stage going at a nice pace
4. the enemies are a joke again 

Overall the stage is better than classic's by a planet but its 2d needs to stop ordering from Spikes'R'Us, the 3d is again done very well with modern sonic's control scheme. C

 

• Now for the Avatar's Park avenue section of city heights (i got to play it but i must hold my bias. AAARRRRRGH!)

1. A much lengthier stage than what we had before
2. It starts off following modern sonic but like knuckles in sonic 3, Chris takes an alternate path towards the end.
3. enemies are still a joke (go figure) but this time they're all over the place and running into them is unavoidable unless you have your action button on standby
4. the wisps are beautifully integrated and don't break the pacing 
5. plenty of alternate routes

This is the type of stage i want to see more of: Lengthy, finely introduced mechanic,alternate routes ,and a little bit of"why the hell do we need sonic when this random dude can run faster than him?" A

• Now for green hill zone with the last air bender

 

(the music is corny but i love it!!)

1. The stage is well woven with the sub boss actively trying to hinder you, making you play it safe
2. Alternate routes make my sonic oc gud
3. The sub boss is non intrusive and plays like a modern rush sequence.
4. the enemies....
5. the platforming works very well with the avatar's floaty jumps

This is another well done stage that while entirely 2d works super well with the avatar's mechanics with the only flaw being the hordes of enemies strewn about. A-

• last but certainly not least: Pyra-factory with Avatar and sonic

 

1. The alternate routes are the same "skip the cogs" shtick, which works because sonic games are about speed not slow-ass platforming
2. The avatar completely outshines sonic in every way possible, they're faster, more precise on the ground, and can take routes he can't. so sonic almost useless if not for the double boost. That isn't good
3. while it's short it does give you an introduction to the mechanic and its gimmicks
4. what the fuck is the deal enemies who do nothing?

This is a level that there has to be more to,  but for now it looks like an avatar stage with sonic thrown in to take back his game. C+

 

 

And that does it for the stages we have, are they poorly designed? 1 is the rest aren't. is the 3d automatic? If automatic means what you only hold down boost to win then no. 

Keep in mind these stages are very early in the game and you can't use them as basis for later stages. which might be eggmanland levels of fuck you

Spoiler

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpzx24qV2_w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF8E5FxuGcU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Z6y8dcoGo

None of these are "boost to win" like their first stages. (damn is that empire city player good or what?!)

 

 

well that's all i had to say. forcing my bias away was seriously hard, but hey i'm pleased with the results.

 

(Can i just say i find every Avatar shown off to be adorable? i want a plush of each! look at their tails wagging as they run SO ADORABLE)

 

[supersonic456]

The only levels that are impressing me with this game are the custom character levels and the tag team one. The level design featured in those stages are fairly open and interesting so far and (as you stated) the wisps have been integrated greatly. They seem to be heavily encouraging replay value and I think I will be playing these levels many times as different characters and using different wispons.

However, the Modern and Classic levels are disappointing for me. Compared to Generations they have both undergone a serious downgrade in level design. While these levels are early in the game, I recall Generations' early levels being more open and even having a better pace to them.

 I hope that the future levels for Modern and Classic Sonic are more interesting, otherwise I can really only see myself replaying stages that have the Custom Character.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

3 hours ago, supersonic456 said:

However, the Modern and Classic levels are disappointing for me. Compared to Generations they have both undergone a serious downgrade in level design. While these levels are early in the game, I recall Generations' early levels being more open and even having a better pace to them.

They do seem dead set on showing off the avatar and both the sonic's are being put on the side. 

I really don't want to have boring as fuck modern levels, or void of fun classic levels.

As hyped as i am for the game, this analysis really showed how little info we have on the sonics. Which is very worrying.

[speedfreak]

I haven't liked any of them. The avatar gameplay looks boring to me, classic Sonic is a huge step down from Mania, modern Sonic so far is way too simplistic, and the tag team is a mismesh of mediocrity imo.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

1 minute ago, speedfreak said:

I haven't liked any of them. The avatar gameplay looks boring to me, classic Sonic is a huge step down from Mania, modern Sonic so far is way too simplistic, and the tag team is a mismesh of mediocrity imo.

Forces and mania have different teams lad.

And like i said 

18 hours ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

Keep in mind these stages are very early in the game

I don't think a demo would have midlegame levels.

Spoiler

I hope you can still look forward to it. 

 

[speedfreak]

Different teams with the same goal. Except one team nails it and the other doesn't. Also it being an early level doesn't change how classic Sonic controls.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

9 minutes ago, speedfreak said:

Different teams with the same goal. Except one team nails it and the other doesn't. Also it being an early level doesn't change how classic Sonic controls.

Did you get to play a demo?

[Spooky Mulder]

2 hours ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

I don't think a demo would have midlegame levels.

  Reveal hidden contents

I hope you can still look forward to it. 

 

Sonic 06's E3 demo featured Sonic's Kingdom Valley stage which is the second-to-last stage in his story.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, Spooky Mulder said:

Sonic 06's E3 demo featured Sonic's Kingdom Valley stage which is the second-to-last stage in his story.

But it was so damn short compared to what we got. (Silver, annoying cathedral, beautiful mach speed section)

And i don't see a way they could end wave ocean without the mach speed section.

[Blue Blood]

The levels showcased in demos for anything tend be the oldest and most complete/stable sections. It just so happens that these will generally be early sections of the games.

Remember Generations? The demo stages there were GHZ at first, and later City Escape as well - City Escape is slap bang in the middle of the game. 

[sonicdudeatdawn]

7 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Remember Generations? The demo stages there were GHZ at first, and later City Escape as well - City Escape is slap bang in the middle of the game. 

There was a fucking demo? Dammit! 

Also i want to ask you sincerely: do you believe these levels are going to be in mid game? (Lay your honest opinion on me im all ears)

[Blue Blood]

6 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

There was a fucking demo? Dammit! 

Also i want to ask you sincerely: do you believe these levels are going to be in mid game? (Lay your honest opinion on me im all ears)

Also Mania - Mirage Saloon comes after the half-way point. 

What we've seen of Forces so far screams early levels. But early levels should not be this bad. I'll even argue that Generations Modern Green Hill was far too basic, while the Classic version was fine. But none of the levels showcased for Forces yet look good at all.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

1 minute ago, Blue Blood said:

Also Mania - Mirage Saloon comes after the half-way point. 

What we've seen.of Forces so far screams early levels. But early levels should not be thing bad. I'll even argue that Generations Modern Green Hill was far too basic, while the Classic version was fine. But now if the levels showcased for Forces yet look good at all.

Face it mania stage ordering is whack and mirage saloon might as well've been the 4th level.

anyway: Thank you.

Do you also find it concerning that modern sonic and classic have only 1 full stage shown off? while the avatar has 3?(& knuckles)

[Toa Axis]

13 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

There was a fucking demo? Dammit! 

Also i want to ask you sincerely: do you believe these levels are going to be in mid game? (Lay your honest opinion on me im all ears)

Early levels being more simple in structure is something that pretty much everyone expects, but they don't have to be so banal. The third and fourth stages in Generations--those being Classic Chemical Plant and Modern Chemical plant--are much more complex and interesting than anything we've seen from Forces, and those aren't even the best Generations has to offer (hell, arguably the best level in the whole game--Modern Sky Sanctuary-- takes  place in the next zone).

Nobody is under any illusion that Forces won't have more complex levels as the game goes on. What is in question lies with the extent of complexity and quality of those levels.

Edit: I want to emphasize the fact that Generations' third and fourth stages are much better because four is exactly the number of stages we've seen from Forces.

[Blue Blood]

16 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

Face it mania stage ordering is whack and mirage saloon might as well've been the 4th level.

anyway: Thank you.

Do you also find it concerning that modern sonic and classic have only 1 full stage shown off? while the avatar has 3?(& knuckles)

I do find it strange that SEGA has shown off so little of the game. But I'm not concerned about it - we know it's tosh and they probably do too.

EDIT: ffs can't type today 

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

we know it's tosh and they probably do too.

none of that please. no exaggerated hatred

What do you think, i want to see your viewpoint. 

[Blue Blood]

2 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

none of that please. no exaggerated hatred

What do you think, i want to see your viewpoint. 

its tosh

[sonicdudeatdawn]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

it's tosh

i really wanted to see where this hatred came from but if that's all you'll give me. i can't say anything further than: Okay then.

 

[Blue Blood]

What do you want to know? Nothing that hasn't already already said by myself and others countless times, I'm sure. I do not think the gameplay looks good. The level design holds your hand and plays itself. Nothing about it is engaging, creative or dependant on the player using an ounce of initiative.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I'm slowly starting to wonder if this game will even go with a "Zone- Act" structure, since the level themes really seem to transition into each other smoothly here.
The OC character's city levels ends in what practically looks like Green hill Zone already, not to mention Green Hill zone going trough a whole transition from Green Hill to construction wasteland to pyramid bomb factory.
It might just go with a Sonic adventure 2 structure that there aren't really zones you're going trough, just story dictated levels that occasionaly share habitats.
And even more smoothly now with the levels actually morphing into each other.


...Altough I still hope Sonic Forces has something like having the San Fransisco golden gate bridge lead into Egypt or New York having a train connection with a jungle ruin expidition site in the middle of the Amazon. Please tell me the gang taking a wrong turn in Forces' Amsterdam leads them directly into walking into the Antartic or something.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

13 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

What do you want to know? Nothing that hasn't already already said by myself and others countless times, I'm sure. I do not think the gameplay looks good.

1. The level design holds your hand and plays itself. Nothing about it is engaging, creative or dependant on the player using an ounce of initiative.

Can I ask you to rewatch the avatar GHZ and PA please.

13 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

I'm slowly starting to wonder if this game will even go with a "Zone- Act" structure, since the level themes really seem to transition into each other smoothly here.
The OC character's city levels ends in what practically looks like Green hill Zone already, not to mention Green Hill zone going trough a whole transition from Green Hill to construction wasteland to pyramid bomb factory.

1. It might just go with a Sonic adventure 2 structure that there aren't really zones you're going trough, just story dictated levels that occasionaly share habitats.

And even more smoothly now with the levels actually morphing into each other.
 

         2. ...Altough I still hope Sonic Forces has something like having the San Fransisco golden gate bridge lead into Egypt or New York having a train connection with a jungle ruin expedition site in the middle of the Amazon. Please tell me the gang taking a wrong turn in Forces' Amsterdam leads them directly into walking into the Antartic or something.

1. if only sonic mania had that (how the fuck did i go from

Spoiler

oil ocean to lava reef

)

2.I'll admit this: I am now confused

Edited August 27, 2017 by Celestia
Mania spoilers!

[Meta77]

33 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

i really wanted to see where this hatred came from but if that's all you'll give me. i can't say anything further than: Okay then.

 

you have to understand there are a handful of memebers here that hate the 3d games. time and time again their main gripes are its uninteresting, Why isnt it like 2D mania, or the we simply hate 3d games. do not get us wrong we dont want to hate it but since its not the vision we have for the game in our heads we hate it. Do not try to understand it.

But for me the game looks good, it runs like most 3d sonic games and the graphics look beautiful. hell id love for some 60 fps lol. Only gripe i have is i want to hear more music tracks.

[Diogenes]

Alright, here's what I think:

Classic Sonic (GHZ):
A level that is almost entirely about holding right. Mostly flat ground, springs and dash pads to do most of the work for you, a few bits of level design plucked from the original without any understanding of why they worked in the first place.

0/10, inexcusable.

Modern Sonic (City Heights):
Boost down a hallway and do some homing attacks. That's literally all the "3D" "gameplay" this stage offers. The 2D section isn't much better, more homing attacks and some awkward jumps that don't really suit the game's controls.

0/10, inexcusable.

Avatar (Park Avenue):
Jog down a hallway, either slowly homing attack enemies or blast them with your room-clearing weapon. Most of this is basically the same as Modern's level but a bit slower and with more enemies. Burst wisp mostly just amounts to flying over the stage.

0/10, inexcusable.

Avatar (GHZ):
More boring platforming, more enemy spam, level design that's basically just one flat path from left to right, the only 3D section is a 20-30 second long quick step section and a QTE finisher.

0/10, inexcusable.

Tag Team (GHZ):
Boost down a hallway, then double boost down a hallway, then skydive down a hallway. Then either abuse wisps to fly over the level or deal with more enemy spam. Technically exists in 3 dimensions but feels more like one dimension.

0/10, inexcusable.

Final verdict: 0/10, inexcusable.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Alright, here's what I think:

Classic Sonic (GHZ):
A level that is almost entirely about holding right. Mostly flat ground, springs and dash pads to do most of the work for you, a few bits of level design plucked from the original without any understanding of why they worked in the first place.

0/10, inexcusable.

Modern Sonic (City Heights):
Boost down a hallway and do some homing attacks. That's literally all the "3D" "gameplay" this stage offers. The 2D section isn't much better, more homing attacks and some awkward jumps that don't really suit the game's controls.

0/10, inexcusable.

Avatar (Park Avenue):
Jog down a hallway, either slowly homing attack enemies or blast them with your room-clearing weapon. Most of this is basically the same as Modern's level but a bit slower and with more enemies. Burst wisp mostly just amounts to flying over the stage.

0/10, inexcusable.

Avatar (GHZ):
More boring platforming, more enemy spam, level design that's basically just one flat path from left to right, the only 3D section is a 20-30 second long quick step section and a QTE finisher.

0/10, inexcusable.

Tag Team (GHZ):
Boost down a hallway, then double boost down a hallway, then skydive down a hallway. Then either abuse wisps to fly over the level or deal with more enemy spam. Technically exists in 3 dimensions but feels more like one dimension.

0/10, inexcusable.

Final verdict: 0/10, inexcusable.

Not one pro in there, just cons with a laughable ending.

0/legible argument

Spoiler

also nice way to be disrespectful of my opinion. thanks i hope the thumbs ups are worth it

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by sonicdudeatdawn

[Dr. Mechano]

These stages don't look good at all. 

Mindlessly boosting forward and occasionally stopping to do some trivially-easy "combat" by twirling the control stick in a circle is not good game design.