Super Emeralds Deconfirmed for Mania

[Alienrun]

To anyone who wants to suggest that this is a spoiler...

Spoiler

Saying that something doesn't exist is not a spoiler because you aren't actually saying anything about the thing in question. It's been scientifically proven to be the case. I'll give an example just to be fair though...

I saw on my twitter feed one day someone poking fun at the fact that someone was crying "SPOILER" when someone said that the Hookshot was deconfirmed for Breath Of The Wild. The response was something along the lines of "How is that a spoiler? Did you really want to wander around the map for hours on end, just to scratch your head and spontaneously come to the conclusion that there is no hookshot? Were you looking forward to get to the final part of the game, only for ganon to say "There is no hookshot"?"

From that I figured the same thing would apply here, albeit to a lesser extent since Mania isn't as big. But I'm certain people would beat Mania only for them to wonder "Wait, what about the Super Emeralds?". The reality is is that we were never told OR hinted at the fact that they were Super Emeralds in the game. That feeling your feeling right now is not "Darn I got spoiled!" It's just flat out disapointment...I didn't spoil s**t! We wanted them in, but they aren't in. You could argue its a spoiler because now that means that we know there are exactly 7 emeralds in the game...but the thing is we already knew that too! "Chaos Emeralds" and "Super Emeralds" in Sega's mind are not the same thing!

Lastly...I'm pretty sure there was a mandate somewhere in the "Sonic Bible" that deconfirms Super Emeralds anyways...so...

Anyways...

I'm not sure how to feel about this, mainly cause I was really hoping (practically expected) for them to be in. Some might say they aren't nessesary, but given that this game will be "bigger than Generations" I'm wondering if only having 7 emeralds would make collecting them a bit thin, as in you could get them half-way through the game without trying too much. (Granted there could not be that many special stage rings) But even then it doesn't hurt to have more Special Stages.

What's worse however is the reasoning behind this, at least according to Izuika is "We don't want there to be a power creep."...Excuse me?! This very much feels like "Sega influence" more than anything if you ask me, if it were up to the Mania team I bet they would put Super Emeralds in! And Power Creep? Like, noone is forcing Sega to make Hyper Emeralds or anything, I don't see what the problem is, did anyone in their right mind think the Super Emeralds were a bad idea?!

sigh Eh...Again I'm not sure how big of a deal this is. (Nevermind the fact this pretty much deconfirms Super Emeralds from the series entirely until Izuika gets fired for some reason) I'm curious to know what you guys think though!  

[Pawn]

If anything, I'm glad. Super Emeralds were only added because S3&K were split into two. Simply doubling the amount of emeralds to collect just feels unimaginative and essentially halves the value of earning each one. I'm sure they can come with a better reward for clearing more Special Stages or another objective entirely. CD had extras to find during the levels - perhaps we'll see the same in this game.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Alienrun said:

I don't see what the problem is, did anyone in their right mind think the Super Emeralds were a bad idea?!

Yes, hello, it's me, I think that.

It made a degree of sense in 3&K because of how it was a game broken in two, but it's completely unnecessary and detrimental outside of it. There's no benefit to having two levels of "super", anything they want a Hyper form to do can simply be given to a Super form, keeping the whole thing much cleaner.

It is a good thing that the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms are gone.

[molul]

14 minutes ago, Pawn said:

If anything, I'm glad. Super Emeralds were only added because S3&K were split into two. Simply doubling the amount of emeralds to collect just feels unimaginative and essentially halves the value of earning each one. I'm sure they can come with a better reward for clearing more Special Stages or another objective entirely.

My 2 cents: super emeralds could have been avoided in S3&K. How? Well, in S&K you start with no emeralds and you collect them and go super. In S3&K you loose the emeralds in Mushroom Hill, and can't go super until you get all super emeralds, except you go hyper this time.

They could have made us collect the normal emeralds again and go super again, but they added super emeralds just because. 

I hope this new unrevealed item makes us go through other special stages for some other reward (true ending?). 7 special stages for nearly 24 acts feels short.

Still, being super sonic a blatant copy of dragon Ball, why not more transformations as in dragon Ball? How are more transformations wrong? 

[Alienrun]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, hello, it's me, I think that.

It made a degree of sense in 3&K because of how it was a game broken in two, but it's completely unnecessary and detrimental outside of it. There's no benefit to having two levels of "super", anything they want a Hyper form to do can simply be given to a Super form, keeping the whole thing much cleaner.

It is a good thing that the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms are gone.

Could you elaborate on this? You say they are unnecessary but in what regard are they bad?

Regarding the "anything they want a Hyper form to do can simply be given to a Super form", that kinda defeats the point of Super Emeralds. There's no reason why we should have to settle for one big upgrade instead of 2, especially if the game is big enough that there would be a feasible benefit to having. Granted I think the best compromise in this situation would be to simply NOT restrict your Super Form once you start getting the Super Emeralds, that way there is no foreseeable consequence to having more emeralds. (Any compromise would work, that's just the most easy one I could think of off of the top of my head. They don't have to work EXACTLY like in S3&K. I just personally think its a bit off putting to have like 14+ zones and only 7 emeralds to collect.)

Also "There is no benefit to having two levels of "super"" ...

That in of itself is a benefit PLUS you have more emeralds to collect. (Which once again are optional...)

TL;DR Explain cause I am confuse!

[Diogenes]

15 minutes ago, molul said:

Still, being super sonic a blatant copy of dragon Ball, why not more transformations as in dragon Ball? How are more transformations wrong? 

Transformations are, for the most part, really dumb. Especially when they're just DBZ-style "better" than the last form.

Like, what's the narrative purpose of a transformation? For Super forms in Sonic, it's mostly something along the lines of "shit's gotten real, and the heroes need to give everything they've got to win". Hyper forms don't add anything to that, you can't pull a "shit's gotten even realer, and the heroes need to give even more than everything they've got" when it's already been raised to the level of needing magic rocks that make you invincible.

1 minute ago, Alienrun said:

Could you elaborate on this? You say they are unnecessary but in what regard are they bad?

Cluttering a game with something unnecessary and with no meaningful benefit is a bad thing. "More" is not inherently better.

[Alienrun]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Transformations are, for the most part, really dumb. Especially when they're just DBZ-style "better" than the last form.

Like, what's the narrative purpose of a transformation? For Super forms in Sonic, it's mostly something along the lines of "shit's gotten real, and the heroes need to give everything they've got to win". Hyper forms don't add anything to that, you can't pull a "shit's gotten even realer, and the heroes need to give even more than everything they've got" when it's already been raised to the level of needing magic rocks that make you invincible.

Yeah I know this isn't targeted towards me, but I'm kinda 50/50 on this one. You CAN add a transformation on a transformation and make it work, but it really depends on the context at the end of the day. If anything the second Trans just makes the first one feel like an upgrade rather than an ultimatum, whether or not that's bad is dependant on the person really.

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Cluttering a game with something unnecessary and with no meaningful benefit is a bad thing. "More" is not inherently better.

See normally I'd agree with you here, but in the case of an "optional" feature, I don't see the harm.

That's like if I said Tails and Knuckles shouldn't be in the game because Tails is just a flying sonic who can't use E-Sheilds and Knuckles is a lower hopping glidding climbing Sonic without an insta-shield! (This is coming from someone who never plays Tails or Knuckles in S3 for these very reasons, but because they are optional I can't really be mad at there inclusion.)

Alt Characters are simply that, an Alt option...Super Emeralds are an Upgrade that is Optional. In that very specific context I don't see how they "clutter" the game...its like saying Achievements in any game clutters the game cause they make you do unnessesary crap that you don't care about! Like sure you might not care about it but...does it really get in the way if its optional AND beneficial to people who want that feature?

[Mark1]

41 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, hello, it's me, I think that.

It made a degree of sense in 3&K because of how it was a game broken in two, but it's completely unnecessary and detrimental outside of it. There's no benefit to having two levels of "super", anything they want a Hyper form to do can simply be given to a Super form, keeping the whole thing much cleaner.

It is a good thing that the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms are gone.

Pretty much all this. The Super Emeralds only felt like an extra reward for playing through both Sonic 3 + Knuckles in one playthrough, since it was considerably bigger than previous games.

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Alienrun said:

If anything the second Trans just makes the first one feel like an upgrade rather than an ultimatum, whether or not that's bad is dependant on the person really.

I would say that is pretty definitively bad when the second transformation is just more of the same. If a second transformation is going to work it'd have to actually change  the situation, not be the equivalent of "Goku yelled even louder and now his hair is even spikier and his laser is even bigger".

Quote

That's like if I said Tails and Knuckles shouldn't be in the game because Tails is just a flying sonic who can't use E-Sheilds and Knuckles is a lower hopping glidding climbing Sonic without an insta-shield! (This is coming from someone who never plays Tails or Knuckles in S3 for these very reasons, but because they are optional I can't really be mad at there inclusion.)

Strictly speaking there's no need for Tails or Knuckles, but they aren't just clutter because their abilities change how you approach the game. The difference between Super and Hyper forms aren't nearly enough to meaningfully change how you play.

Quote

Alt Characters are simply that, an Alt option...Super Emeralds are an Upgrade that is Optional. In that very specific context I don't see how they "clutter" the game...

"Optional" is not a shield from criticism. And how the two function is completely different...with characters, you pick one and stick with them through the playthrough. With forms, they're progressive, you start at base form and have to work to earn Super and then Hyper over the course of a playthrough. You can't just draw a straight equivalence simply because they're both optional.

 

[Salamander]

Super Emeralds and Hyper Sonic exist purely to give you an incentive to play the second set of special stages in lock-on S3&K.  If you haven't made double the necessary number of special stages for some reason, they're not necessary.  That's all.

Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there were only going to be two special rings per act in Mania.  Even if you're really on the ball it'll take you until the fourth zone to get Super Sonic - and on early playthroughs, much longer, I'm sure.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

I hope the special rings aren't insanely hard to find like in sonic time twisted.

[MegasonicZX]

To add to the "hyper emeralds are useless" argument i'd rather you got something better than just a new invincibility mode when you collect a second set of emeralds since super sonic does the job well enough already, not to mention invincibility modes don't really do anything for me in a platformer especially in this series since they just take all of the challenge out of the stages which was cool back when I was younger but I prefer these games to challenge me so using super sonic/hyper sonic just doesn't feel like a solid deal anymore and i'd rather a reward that radically changes the game and makes another playthrough more fun, not easier.

[Dannymax440]

Not seeing a big deal since the super emeralds were just added for the lock-on 3 & K. As for getting Super Sonic early, Sonic 2 did that as early as Emerald Hill if you knew all the rings and checkpoint placement.

[Alienrun]

23 minutes ago, Dannymax440 said:

Not seeing a big deal since the super emeralds were just added for the lock-on 3 & K. As for getting Super Sonic early, Sonic 2 did that as early as Emerald Hill if you knew all the rings and checkpoint placement.

In Sonic 2's defense it required a lot of backtracking and was annoying to do, its not perfect but it wasn't busted either...

...actually it kind of was, Sonic 2 is closest to this exact problem due to the way its designed, but that's neither here nor there.

[TailsTellsTales]

I do not really mind Super Emeralds. If such a thing ever came to be again, I would hope all characters would be able to turn hyper. Otherwise the Super forms are good enough. I feel the Super Emeralds is something special that should be kept to Sonic 3K.

[Azure P]

They were in one game. Granted it was a good game. But still one game and oh so long ago.

 

Though if you look at the emeralds in their current form in the series lately. They look exactly like the super emeralds.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

What if sonic has been hyper all along?

He just toned his colors down so he won't give his fans epilepsy. He sure looks out for his fans.

[KHCast]

The idea of them just reusing the chaos emeralds again and simply having them scattered at the beginning of Sonic & knuckles I still never understand why it wasn't used to avoid the needless inclusion of a extra form that would never be touched on again. 

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, KHCast said:

The idea of them just reusing the chaos emeralds again and simply having them scattered at the beginning of Sonic & knuckles I still never understand why it wasn't used to avoid the needless inclusion of a extra form that would never be touched on again. 

Because it would feel like a dick move if you got stripped of something you worked to earn and then had to do a bunch of work just to get it back.

[KHCast]

Feels like either way it would kinda be a shot in the foot. I guess it was a better alternative long run, as they can just simply retcon them 

[Chris Knopps]

I have an idea... Hear me out, especially you @Diogenes.

Since the Chaos Emeralds retained their Super Emerald design after S3&K and essentially just shrunk back down to the size of regular stones...

Why not have the Chaos Emeralds in the game, with one round of Special Stages to collect the stones themselves, then after you get them all, you unlock a SECOND, harder series of Special Stages to "power up" the Chaos Emeralds.

Every time you complete one of the second round of Special Stages, it causes the correlating Chaos Emerald to obtain a bright glow. And if you beat them all, then you get the "Hyper" forms of the characters.

This way, you get to keep all of the Chaos Emeralds WHILE you power them up AND can keep your Super Form during the process, giving you the basics, eliminating the whole "Super Emerald" thing, and basically just tapping into their "Inner Juice" a little more for some extra, optional shabang.

Nothing plot related, just an additional, optional feature for those with the skills to go above and beyond to unlock it.

Think...

Powering up the Master Sword in breath of the Wild via the DLC.

You have it already, nothing is stopping you from using it while you work on increasing its power, and once the task is complete, you have the Master Sword x2.

Essentially how this idea works.

Keep your Chaos Emeralds, keep your Super Form, and if you can beat the extra Special Stages, you get a little more bang for your skill.

Win-Win?

Picture a message like this...

"Sonic/Tails/Knuckles collected all Chaos Emeralds!"

"Now you can tackle the Hyper Stages!"

"Conquer them all to boost the Chaos Emeralds!"

Sound good folks?

[Diogenes]

That solves literally none of my problems with Super Emeralds/Hyper forms.

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That solves literally none of my problems with Super Emeralds/Hyper forms.

I mean...

I can't do anything about a "Screw that" attitude. I tried here. You've got to look at these things more openly instead of so personally.

You're not losing your Chaos Emeralds nor' your Super Form while you work on the second round of Special Stages, they're not connected to the plot and it's just an additional challenge for the skillful to get something not everybody can obtain without, well, skill.

Kind of a nice "Nice try NOOB!" thing to throw in. Get gud is an incentive to replay as well.

[Diogenes]

Your idea of looking at it openly seems to mean I should ignore my actual thoughts on the matter and just give you what you want.

So I'm gonna say, nah, I don't got to do that.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Your idea of looking at it openly seems to mean I should ignore my actual thoughts on the matter and just give you what you want.

So I'm gonna say, nah, I don't got to do that.

My post was to cater to those seeking the return of a Hyper concept while also catering to your ideals of avoiding a lot of the baggage that had to come with them.

It's no longer a forced mechanic using the concept I put out. You don't get anything stripped and you decide to go for it or not.

It's hard for me to see a feature like that a bad thing when it incentivizes challenge seekers and is something those a little too tame can simply avoid.