Sonic Forces Impressions

[Wraith]

I believe that this is the only game there is. I've suspected that there might have been another game at some point, but I think whatever it was was scrapped and this is the result of their work. There's no secret project in the background. Otherwise it would make more sense to just put all your resources on that. 

Either way, I don't really believe this is a 4 year effort anymore. Something must have gone down.

[Bobnik]

9 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I believe this is a Colours/Generations situation, maybe next year we'll have a new big release that doesn't suck this bad. Or at least I hope.

When you use London Symphonic Orchestra, make an OC creator, a new engine (which was apparently done from scratch if Otakumode interview is to be believed), vocalists from Hoobastank and Dangerkids and try to sell it as a "big" game with a story premise that wouldn't fit a low-budget Sonic game at all... Yeah, I doubt this is considered a low-budget/small title by SEGA.

[rosedust]

i just wanna see me gorl amyyyy

[Shadowlax]

10 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

I definitely remember that and I've been pointing it out for a while now.

I think there are two possible outcomes here.

In 2013 a member on Retro, as you said, mentioned a new working prototype unlike anything done before, neither LW or Boost stuff.

In the meantime they were already working on the Hedgehog Engine 2, which would take some time from development.

If you guys remember, Hunnid P said he was working for a Sonic project during ~2014, and Crush 40 teased a vocal theme for the next big Sonic game in ~2015 iirc. 

Now, if you take in consideration that Forces is evidently a low budget effort, with its low pricepoint, reused assets and scarcity of content all around, there is probably an undisclosed project on which they're working on behind the curtains.

I believe this is a Colours/Generations situation, maybe next year we'll have a new big release that doesn't suck this bad. Or at least I hope.

OR that game has been scrapped in the end and we're stuck with Forces for the next two years ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I feel like if this is the case

 

why the shit didn't sonic team just abstain from making a sonic game. Sonic mania could have legit been this years sonic game and they could have just said " new 3d sonic game is coming" and shit would have been fine

[Sonikko]

No idea, I was just spitballing to be quite honest. The low price point has given me the impression of a low budget effort since the very beginning.

No big budget game sits at 40€/$ nowadays, even Nintendo is selling games at 60€/$ now, so it feels weird that Sonic got its price lowered to 40. No Sonic game had a price point that low since Colours, and it was a Wii game, so it was basically a generation behind.

Even Lost World was 50 bucks at launch.

[Wraith]

Colors was 50 bucks too. The 40 dollar price point is usually for handheld games.

[Dr. Detective]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Yes; why does Sonic Team hate gameplay, fun, and also their audience?

You know, it's very strange. I feel like their issue is more that so many people are running about the place with their own ideas and shit that gets tossed in and out at random that they, as a company, and by extension their games, have this really glaring and obvious problem with consistency to the point where it's becoming a cosmic, self-fulfilling prophecy.

Because they do a lot of cool stuff for us that I don't see often enough in the gaming industry, like pricing the game at 40 bucks, giving away a free story based DLC where you can play as a new character with new levels (where in any other game just the character would be like 2.99 or something. Or worse, fucking Horse Armour) and all the cool stuff they're doing with their twitter and what not. Even an example like Sonic Lost World, where they released a free patch that got rid of the forceful aspects of the stupid motion controls and made it so that collecting rings gave you lives again. I could actually see them doing something like that again with Forces if this new ring system is hated enough. And I could see it being completely free. Not like Warner Brothers, who think paid DLC is more important to work on then fixing an actual broken game like Arkham Origins with actual serious issues like intense slow-down and glitches, stuff that not even Lost World had to worry about, whatever you think of how it played.

But then they do really dumb, "Holy Shit, what the fuck is wrong with you?" nonsense on top of all that.

There's the current thing with Denuvo that everyone hates, the admittedly very limited marketing for Forces (that I've personally been okay with because I want to discover everything myself but keeping everything close to your chest doesn't help with sales so I totally get wanting more), and even just a few years back, doing the opposite with Sonic Boom where they heavily marketed the fuck out of it in a manner that scared the fanbase half to death to the point where talks of the Modern Sonic series being replaced kept cropping up. I never really believed that and nowadays, especially, the idea that it could have happened is extraordinarily laughable considering just how much that push failed. I mean, go figure, having the world forcefully re-worked and presented to us in a manner that was so bafflingly alien for an extremely pointless non-reason that didn't in anyway benefit the TV Show that would have had no problem standing on it's own, a broken video game and a comic that got cancelled after 11 issues didn't pan out well. At least the reasons behind changing things up when transitioning from 2D to 3D made more sense. 

The television show would have been fine just being a TV show. Worry about working up to getting toys, games, and comics for it later. They went and blew their load early and made it so that the only thing people really wanted to see were just episodes of the show (if you're someone who likes the show. Thankfully I do) instead of the other way around because the initial marketing push was so disgusting and in your face and yielded terrible results.  Considering how well it was doing being shown once a week at 7 Am the only way Cartoon Network felt they HAD to make sure it couldn't do well at all was by kicking it to fucking Boomerang. Because we only want Teen Titans Go to be a success now. We can't have more than one success on our channel. Both SEGA and CN don't seem to understand that people are gonna come just because it's Sonic. We don't need this bullshit going on about "Well we gotta make Knuckles buff and huge, otherwise the kids will be confused by the fact that he's the strong one" nevermind the fact that he's never had that problem before in the 20+ years he's been around by that point. His name is literally "Knuckles" for God's sake.

And I haven't even gone into the shit they do with the games. Bringing back things they heard people like only to lazily shove them into the next game without consideration for why they were liked it in the first place. They make a game that surprises everyone with it's gameplay but disappoints when it comes to it's lackluster narrative. They then follow-up with one that has a better narrative but has supremely unimpressive gameplay and level design. It's the strangest thing ever because clearly they can do both. Looking at Forces, it doesn't look technically terrible. I can clearly see that it's just a bout of laziness in comparison to what happened before. You can do both. I know you can. I'm not letting you get away with that excuse the weird thespian motherfucker on those terrible SEGA Forums keeps shouting about; saying dumb shit like they can only focus on one of the other or else the whole thing will be bad. Clearly you can. There's probably different people shown to be working on different aspects of the game. 

There must be some sort of throne war for supremacy going on over there.

To me they don't come off as though they hate the audience. It feels more like the company as a whole (not so much individually) is just really stupid. 

They have an idea of what the right things to do are but in practice they either fuck it up, do it the wrong way, or actually manage to hit the bullseye.I'm reminded of what Iizuka said about the Avatar character and why he exists. It was amazing seeing him acknowledge that we want characters that play like Sonic with their own abilities but at the same time didn't think that it might have been more rewarding to let us play as someone we care about. He had the right idea but for some reason he didn't think it made more sense to do the more obvious thing. Especially considering Mania was coming out and it DID do the obvious thing. And it's not like they can't do it because they're GOING to release DLC where you can play as Shadow so... what?

I don't understand.

I don't know what they are.

[Fletch]

Good impression article, Mayor D. Very detailed. I pretty much figured this was how things would be like, and my overall faith in the final product being any better is quite low. It's not a game that for me I see as absolutely terrible and will go down as one of the worse Sonic games ever. I know I'll get some enjoyment out of it, but I feel it may become like Lost World where I enjoyed my playthrough of it, but overall it ranks low on my favorite 3D Sonic list and isn't something I revisit while hoping for much better.

It's pretty baffling seeing Forces be a step back as a boost game. Like, what happened? Each boost game from Unleashed to Colors to Generations managed to improve upon each other in the gameplay department to certain degrees. I know Colors was smaller than Unleashed and Generations, hence why its full levels are cut into 6 Acts, but it still managed to do certain things that Generations would later continue and become the peak of the boost trilogy in terms of gameplay and design. Yet, Forces just... looks like a massive step back and it's like what exactly happened? Despite still getting the game, I find myself being more into the actual story than the gameplay experience, and that's kinda sad. Yeah, I'm probably going to get some enjoyment out of it, but I know it won't be the type of enjoyment I got with Unleashed, Colors, or Generations.

 

Honestly, if Sonic Team just can't get it right, then can they just retire the boost gameplay? Go back to the days when we had more control over Sonic in 3D and not so much automation? It was a gameplay style I was pretty happy with at one point, but nowadays I just feel tired of it. It overall feels as if it has run its course with Generations being the peak of it and I want more control back over Sonic like I had in the Adventure era. Lost World had something going but didn't quite get it, but of course its been thrown away and is now the black sheep among the Modern Sonic era from 2008 to 2017 among Sonic Team games created.

[Strickerx5]

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

Colors was 50 bucks too. The 40 dollar price point is usually for handheld games.

Games like Yooka-Laylee, Ratchet and Clank, and Crash all had the price of $40. This is new to Sonic but not to platformers as a whole these days.

[Sonikko]

Just now, Strickerx5 said:

Games like Yooka-Laylee, Ratchet and Clank, and Crash all had the price of $40. This is new to Sonic but not to platformers as a whole these days.

Indie, Remake, 1:1 Remake, Sonic Forces is a "totally new" product. The price is low!

[Blue Blood]

I'm not going to pretend to have any sort of insight into the reason behind Forces' price point. But I agree that it's definitely not the product of four-years' labour. This game continues to feel like a mess, almost like different projects or ideas were all lumped into one large project below any of them managed to take shape. I don't that that happened, it's just what Forces feels like. They aren't committing to a mature or darker Sonic game, they aren't committing to Generations 2, they aren't committing to Classic Sonic, they aren't committing 3D (but that's nothing new), they aren't committing to anything. They're just dipping their toes into all of these aspects.

Still kinda hoping that this game bombs in such a way that SEGA and Sonic Team and forced to rethink what they're doing with Sonic. But you know, monkey paw and all that...

[Strickerx5]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

Indie, Remake, 1:1 Remake, Sonic Forces is a "totally new" product. The price is low!

Knack 2

So, not at all really. Platformers these days just aren't priced like the Cods or Destinys. The general public just isn't considering them as as big of a value as them (not saying that's a good thing though mind you).

[Ratcicle King]

6 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

Knack 2

So, not at all really. Platformers these days just aren't priced like the Cods or Destinys. The general public just isn't considering them as as big of a value as them (not saying that's a good thing though mind you).

Basically this, only Nintendo can get away with the full price because of brand recognition and the likes.

[LongcrierCat]

What saddens me most about the whole Endri situation is that when they posted that they play tested a new Sonic game that was neither Boost nor Parkour that it also doesn't fit the development schedule of Sonic Mania, which took a year of development which is ridiculously amazing. I want to think that the ending of Forces ties directly into the game and that Forces is the final (and much needed hurrah) of the Boost games before we try a new 3D Sonic that may or may not be closer to what we see out of fangames like Green Hill Paradise Act 2 and Sonic Utopia? 

I think the only point drawing me in is the implications of Genesis Wave Portals being a thing in the Sonic Games now and the story being something that reflects what I appreciate more in Sonic's storytelling. I always liked the comics and enjoy the B movie approach the Adventure games took on. I like good fully invested stories. I don't mind if they're silly. I mind if they're involved and are genuine  and earnest in their approach. This is what Ian Flynn got so right about Sonic. I like the inherent goofiness of Sonic and I love being completely side winded by an unexpectedly genuine and emotional story turn in my cartoon anime mascot franchise. Look around you. All of the best stories in cartoons today do this same thing. Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Wander Over Yonder, Duck Tales, Adventure Time, etc. etc. At this point,  I think Sega should admit defeat to the comic creators who made their franchise worth reading into for so long and make it canon but I digress.

But all the same, I'd like a game that's fun to play as it is to watch. This is what I loved about Undertale. It could have been like Earthbound/Mother 2 but it was more like Mother 3. Mother 2, like Mother 1, is your rote RPG of the time but it has a story element in battles but otherwise is your typical Nintendo RPG of the time. But the story was so good that you didn't mind the game being a bit of a chore. Mother 3 sought to make it interesting via a rhythm based hit system should you hit the beats just right with the music. Undertale did the same via combining the turn based RPG with genre bending mechanics that made it a schmup, an almost DDR like segment, a time based golf game mechanic driven combat game and even bringing in some of the visual novel into a more typical RPG set up. It was so exciting to see where it would go next and how it would play. 

I don't get that from Sonic anymore. It's using what foundation it has and just sticking to it instead of building off of it. How is that fun? The best new Sonic game is fan made and it even ties into this mess. It even managed to push old ideas into new territory for a good lot of the game and new comers are even starting to realize what Sonic was about because of that game. It's a real crowd pleaser and eye opening game. But then there's 3D Sonic. It's not doing much of anything with itself. Why? 

I want to see Sonic Utopia but Official and maybe not afraid to veer off into more post-Dreamcast ideas. I'd like to see actual momentum based parkour in a 3D Sonic like that. 

At this moment now I'm feeling like Freedom Planet and a maybe 3D Branch of it or some other Sonic fan made spiritual successor would rather do that now instead of Sonic Team. 

Man, like I'm feeling kind of defeated. I don't know what else to say. 

[Blue Blood]

8 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

Knack 2

So, not at all really. Platformers these days just aren't priced like the Cods or Destinys. The general public just isn't considering them as as big of a value as them (not saying that's a good thing though mind you).

Gotta be honest here; this is the most compelling argument I've heard that tries to explain why Forces is so cheap. Platformers, with the exception of digital 2D and indie titles, are few and far between now. The past few Sonic releases did not sell well, with the exception of Mania. Many other factors come in to it (like the Wii U having an active userbase of about 12 people, or nobody wanting one crappy Boom game yet alone three), but a a more palatable price makes sense to me at least. 

[Sonikko]

20 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

Knack 2

So, not at all really. Platformers these days just aren't priced like the Cods or Destinys. The general public just isn't considering them as as big of a value as them (not saying that's a good thing though mind you).

I agree, it does make sense. I guess we'll see how things pan out. 

I sure hope you're wrong and there's something cool waiting right around the corner lol.

[Soniman]

Honestly I think the saddest part of all this was how much peole were waiting and anticipating the new Sonic game after 4 long years, after SLW not being very good (I liked it but thats in the vast minority), Boom comming and gooing and being just a terrible buisness venture all around, and all that for what? Another half baked experience that cant even build on the game that came before? Sonic Generations was a good game but its not at all hard to top and improve on, but based on what ive seen, bassed on all the impressions, based on everything, Forces just seems to have taken a step back in ever way imaginable, in control, in level design, the only thing it has going for it right now is the story and..lets be honest, thats not gonna rock our world either.

So where do we go from here? Waiting another 4 years for another mediocre or bad game from Sonic Team? Shit's fucked, I myself, as ive said countless times in the past, am content with waiting however long it takes for a good Sonic game to accidently be made because I have various other things to keep me interested in the meantime. And hey, its not all bad, we got Mania, the best Sonic game in over 20 years, lets not devalue that victory. 

So, let teh game come out let it catch that 59% on metacritic, let it be another feather in the cap of reviewers who get more ammo to shit on Sonic in their articles, the Franchise brought it on themsleves and its the wake up call Sega/Sonic Team needs to get their shit together because they dont know what they're doing. lool

[Multikaris]

It feels like the developers genuinely want to leave the series behind, and yet they HAVE to make it. On their wits end, they end up pandering to everyone in spite of not paying mind to the code. No wonder the likes of Solkia haven't returned!

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

I hope in future that I don't say that Knack 2 is better than Sonic Forces...

I hope it doesn't come to that...

[Graystripe2000]

Are people seriously sending sending hate mail to @Mayor D over his preview? Because I'm hearing that's happening.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I think people are reading a bit too much into the price point. Let's consider that the following games were also released at 40 bucks: Ratchet & Clank 2016 and Knack 2. Both long, gorgeous, triple-A titles. This is a common theme for non-Nintendo platformers in general. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

5 minutes ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Are people seriously sending sending hate mail to @Mayor D over his preview? Because I'm hearing that's happening.

They are?

*checks my inboxes?*

Nope.

 

Unless they're sending it to my TSS email account? Not checked that in about 4 years so lol!

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

I'm not going to pretend to have any sort of insight into the reason behind Forces' price point. But I agree that it's definitely not the product of four-years' labour. This game continues to feel like a mess, almost like different projects or ideas were all lumped into one large project below any of them managed to take shape. I don't that that happened, it's just what Forces feels like. They aren't committing to a mature or darker Sonic game, they aren't committing to Generations 2, they aren't committing to Classic Sonic, they aren't committing 3D (but that's nothing new), they aren't committing to anything. They're just dipping their toes into all of these aspects.

Still kinda hoping that this game bombs in such a way that SEGA and Sonic Team and forced to rethink what they're doing with Sonic. But you know, monkey paw and all that...

SEGA and Sonic Team can't even react well to the positive reception they get.

If it bombs the people in charge might short-circuit from confusion as the focus-tested charts told them that Classic Sonic, 2D, Boost, and Deviantart all equal positive reception. 

And then they'll wheel in new generic corporate shills from the warehouse and we'll be doing this dance for the next 25 years.

 

 

[Sonicka]

So, I also got to sit down with Sonic Forces at EGX multiple times this weekend... and for me personally, I really enjoyed it. The levels themselves were quite short, tight and simple, but then these are the opening stages of the game, so I'd expect nothing less.

Now first off I'll start with Sonic's level - controlling Sonic felt like it leant a bit more towards the Colours type of control than Generations - for that to be a positive or negative depends on your preference, but I damn well welcome the return of the double jump as this really helps with precision platforming and made my time graceful one. I'm not a huge fan of them going back to 'wisps = boost' instead of 'rings = boost' for the gameplay as this means you can only boost when the game sees fit to supply you with wisp capsules... but I'm sensing this may be Sonic Team's attempt to nip the "boost to win" bugbear that is bemoaned about by some. Based on the stages on offer I harbour a guess that they'll continue to be short and sweet so maybe they won't require of a lot of the boost mechanic anyway - so to me it agains seems like they're formulating back to a Sonic Colours approach here. Im a way this would makes sense considering we know so far of 4/5 varying types of gameplay on offer and that Modern Sonic himself has 10 stages, so when you do the math it's realistic to consider each level will likely be short and snappy than of Sonic Generations Classic/Modern length. 

I played Classic Sonic after and the Boss was pretty simple and fun if nothing special, but I loved the call backs to the past regardless and controlling Classic Sonic was fluent and tight to take him down easily. I couldn't get the drop dash to work no matter how hard I tried however - I don't know if I was doing this incorrectly or maybe Sonic Team implemented this as an additional feature after this build? I'm just not sure. I am also slightly puzzled why Eggman referred to classic sonic as from another dimension... does he not mean the past... surely? Or is Sonic Forces non-canon and set in another Dimension to where Mania throws Sonic out at... I mean, Silver is in this game somehow... **shrugs**  

I also did enjoy the Avatar level ONCE I had a handle on how the Avatar (let's just call 'em 'Avie' for now) controls. Initially Avie felt a little slippery and the momentum seemed a tad ropey (I could stop completely dead in midair after running and jumping right/left) - it's not Sonic 4 terrible to be fair, but I jumped and slid into a few pits which I felt were out of my control, not to mention I completely forgot the lock on was for the grapple hook and not a homing attack, stupid! But once that was down and I'd adjusted everything was fine - using Wispon power-ups are actually great fun and I gave them all a tryout (although yes the cube one was pretty lame... well, for the 2D sections at least). I did actually appreciate that each wispon powered weapon doesn't run out so I can flamethrower or lighting whip relentlessly, it's not only fun to do as it's destructive, but this makes up for the fact your character has no real basic way to attack like Sonic would so this at least leaves him with a defensive/offensive move-set. The additional wisp power you collect in the level adds some more joy to mess around - burst allows additional airtime to explore or progress through alternate paths and the light speed dash was a welcome return... even through lines of enemies as well if timed just right. The only letdown was the final crab chase, and with this it's only because I just wish it either went on for longer or added some more things to do - even additional QTE's would've been lovely rather than 1 button press because the set-pieces in this game feel epic.

Lastly was the Tag-Team level which I think was my favourite. Having control of both Sonic's and Avie's abilities at will made traversing the level a breeze between the speed and combat (thankfully not combat in a Sonic Heroes kind of way though), so boosting, blasting and grapple hooking your way through was pretty much the game here! I wish a had a bit more control of how and when I could use the grapple hook though, as traversing corners were fun as you could extend and retract yourself but I would have liked more input with a feature that makes me feel like a quasi-spiderman. Also, although the double boost seems pretty pointless (and shows off more evidently that really this was likely Boom Sonic's role before he got booted and re-suited as Avie) I'd be lying if I damn well didn't enjoy it alongside to Fist Bump playing as I smashed though hundreds of enemies to make it to the top of the Pyramid. Fight the power! 

So yeah, overall I came away feeling very positive about Sonic Forces. Graphically it looks gorgeous (on the PS4/ONE I played it one anyway - I never made it to the Switch version so I can't comment) - and the soundtrack is just wonderfully memorable. I had 5 other friends I went round EGX with whom tried this game out too, only a few of them were Sonic Fans, but they all enjoyed what this game had to offer. 

Roll on release!

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Son-icka said:

 I am also slightly puzzled why Eggman referred to classic sonic as from another dimension... does he not mean the past... surely? Or is Sonic Forces non-canon and set in another Dimension to where Mania throws Sonic out at... I mean, Silver is in this game somehow... **shrugs**  

Haven't you heard? Iizuka says that Classic Sonic is officially from another dimension now. If anythings going to be non-canon, it'd be Generations (which is fine by me considering the nothing that happened in it). 

Or better yet, you could just replace all the times they refer to Classic Sonic being from the past in Generations with him being from another dimension. It wouldn't take long to do considering, again, the large amount of nothing that happened.

It'd be a great way to get rid of that embarrassing "Enjoy your future, it's gonna be great" line too.