Speed Battle: Sonic vs the Flash (SEGA vs DC)

[Muscles Maximum]

The Flash is obviously faster. Like, he can not only run way faster than the speed of light, he can think at light speed, plus he can run so fast he can time travel. Like, run beyond time. He can punch over 1,000,000,000 times in a second. The Flash can outrun teleportation. It's ridiculous.

11 hours ago, FantasticMrRobb said:

No, it is a valid argument because I have yet to be proven otherwise. I know it's kind of a cheap shot, but I'm not wrong here whether you like it or not. Sonic hasn't shown he can run a million times light speed because he's never needed to, and I'm very well convinced of that. Just because I have a point, is no reason to go off making no sense.

Like, what's the point of even making this topic if whenever other people tell you Flash is faster, you just cover your ears and say "No no no Sonic has no limit". Were you thinking everyone would agree with you because this is a Sonic forum? Also, Sonic would have died in Colors had the wisps not saved him because he wasn't fast enough to outrun a giant expanding black hole, or whatever that thing was. Unless you think he was "holding back" and let himself get caught by that on purpose.

Your arguments basically come off as is this really childish "My superhero is better than yours" attitude. I mean, I get it you're a huge Sonic fan. We all are. Sonic has always been my number one favorite fictional character. He's the best. That doesn't mean he has to literally be unbeatable and be able to run circles around SSGSS4 Gogeta just because he's my favorite character. Trust me, I've been there before man. You should have seen my middle school self. I've brought up this very topic on the playground multiple times and it always ended up with me leaving frustrated because I couldn't listen to reason because I truly believed Sonic could destroy any fictional character because of his SONIC SPEED! I mean yeah it's fun to discuss these things, but be reasonable here. 

I haven't read the comics really but I'm vaguely familiar. I know Sonic's bitten off of a few Flash powers like the vibrating through walls. Even in the comic-verse I'm confident Flash is a much faster character.

[FantasticMrRobb]

Of course, it's unintentional for it to come off that way. In no way am I trying to say Sonic could whoop anybody just because of his speed. I honestly do believe Sonic has some massive hidden potential, but that's really about it. I have the idea that Sonic is a whole heck of a lot faster and way smarter than he leads on to be, he just never needs to be, I suppose, unless there's a "real" threat involved. Which usually at that point, he'll go Super Sonic. Anyways...

Just going by facts, it's debatable, I would think.

I mean, there's characters I think could take Sonic with a good fight, but I've never assumed Sonic to be invincible. Now Super Sonic would be a different story, but that's for another day.

I've always been hearing people say Sonic can only go at super and even hyper sonic speed. But I mean, hasn't he gone light speed many times before? What about his light speed shoes? Or his light speed attack? Or the comment he made in Colors about light speed being no problem? Sure, Sonic's cocky, but I don't think he would bite off more than he could chew.

Also, I do think about Colors where Sonic was running from the black hole explosion. I mean, I only assume it was a black hole because Sonic didn't just blaze away from it. We've seen Sonic outrun explosions many times, why would this be any different had it been an explosion? That, and it looked like a black hole. Also would be a good reason why Sonic wouldn't get away from it in time, maybe he didn't expect to have to go so fast so quickly, I dunno.

 

[Sega DogTagz]

Why does this conversation always need to pigeonhole Sonic into his video game abilities?

DC has rebooted its entire lineup so many times, that a single true representation of the Flash is blurry at best, but I never see anyone bat an eye at using previous-age shenanigans as proof of the Flash’s speed. Shoot, I can’t tell you how many times people seem to bring up the various justice league TV series in conversations like this, but balk when someone even mentions the sonic comics. It’s a wicked double standard.

 

Back in the old days, Archie Sonic could do some things that could make the speed of light look like childsplay. Need I remind you that he crossed a chunk of the cosmic interstate on foot that was at minimum 148,000 lightyears long.

[FantasticMrRobb]

On 4/23/2017 at 3:54 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

Back in the old days, Archie Sonic could do some things that could make the speed of light look like childsplay. Need I remind you that he crossed a chunk of the cosmic interstate on foot that was at minimum 148,000 lightyears long.

I would owe you not 1 but 2 cookies if you can show me just where he done that?

[Sparky]

I am both a Sonic fan and a Flash fan, and having accumulated a ton of information regarding their speed and how it works, I can say with the absolute certainty that Sonic the Hedgehog and The Flash are the EXACT. SAME. SPEED. 

From every piece of evidence I've seen for Sonic in the games, his speed works just like the Speed Force without all the lightning stuff. Sonic can not only reach and surpass lightspeed, but he can also manipulate movement/kinetic energy/speed in anything he touches, and he can manipulate the flow of time, and his speed can even get time moving again. In Sonic Battle, he vibrates his molecules. From these and other stuff, it's safe to say that Sonic is on the same level as the Flash. But, the Sonic Franchise isn't as "in your face" with it as the Flash franchise. The true nature of Sonic is rarely ever touched upon clearly, while the Speed Force is extremely well defined despite being a mysterious force. As a result, these specific debates always end up once sided because everyone knows the Flash's speed but they don't know Sonic's, and it's even true among Sonic fans. Everyone is more likely to think that Sonic only has strong legs and can barely break the sound barrier, and without the Chaos Emeralds he's done for. 

[Sega DogTagz]

18 hours ago, FantasticMrRobb said:

I would owe you not 1 but 2 cookies if you can show me just where he done that?

In issue 19, and possibly again in issue 11 depending on how you look at it.

 

In issue 19, (its the night of 1000 sonics issue) Sonic accesses the cosmic interstate. He runs halfway between dimensions to a space called the neutral zone and reaches a signpost reading "Cosmic Interstate I" and "Next exit in 140,000 Lightyears". At this point Sonic jumps off the interstate, returns to it a bit later, and runs back to mobius. It is logical to assume that Mobius prime is the obvious candidate for the start of the cosmic interstate I. So interstate I could begin there. If that were the case, Sonic would have had to travel about 140,000 lightyears to make it to the halfway point. Furthermore, Sonic ran the distance there and back to Mobius, making that a cool 280,000 lightyears.  That little titdbit isn't all to important because of what Sonic had done before.

Either way you look at it, we also know that Sonic accessed the cosmic interstate in issue 11, and in that issue, he ran all the way to moebius (anti-mobius). So if you assume that cosmic interstate I starts at mobius prime, then Sonic would have had to run AT LEAST 280,000 light years to reach moebius. (and thats another 280 for the return trip, so we are up to what... 560,000 light years) If you don't make that assumption, then Sonic would have had to run at least 148,000 light years to reach the point he made it to in issue 19, as he would have been coming from a further away starting point.

And that reeeeeeeeeally lowballing it. Moebius could be several exits away. It could be any infinite number of exits away. Even under the single exit mentality, A roundtrip to Moebious is 560,000 Lightyears. Sonic did that in seemingly a few moments.

But seeing as how Sonic completed that task and was back before you could shake a stick at his dust trail, thats a pretty clear indicator that the speed of light is little more than a shuffle to the bathroom in the middle of the night for that iteration of Archie Sonic. The old comics are littered with little things like stopwatch counts and distance markers that highlight how ridiculously fast we were supposed to perceive Sonic to be. There was much more of an acceptance of a suspension of disbelief back then so we got insane stuff like that, and the waterball, and turning himself invisible by spinning in place.

 

But on the note of the cosmic interstate, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people who ever donned the Flash mantle would be consumed by the speedforce and die if they even thought about trying to go half that fast.

 

 

 

[Kellan]

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

But on the note of the cosmic interstate, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people who ever donned the Flash mantle would be consumed by the speedforce and die if they even thought about trying to go half that fast.

The Flash once crossed the universe faster that instant teleportation. The size of the observable universe is 93 billion light-years in diameter. It's not even close.

Edit: I can't believe I got sucked back into this conversation.

[Sparky]

27 minutes ago, Kellan said:

The Flash once crossed the universe faster that instant teleportation. The size of the observable universe is 93 billion light-years in diameter. It's not even close.

Edit: I can't believe I got sucked back into this conversation.

He does have a point, though. When a Flash goes "too fast", they are in danger of being sucked into the Speed Force. Permanently. 

[Kellan]

3 hours ago, Sparky said:

He does have a point, though. When a Flash goes "too fast", they are in danger of being sucked into the Speed Force. Permanently. 

Ok. Well he went 93 billion light-years faster than an instant, and that didn't happen. Unless Sonic has went 94 billion light-years faster that an instant, I fail to see how that's relevant.

Edit: This isn't worth it, I'm done.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, Kellan said:

Ok. Well he went 93 billion light-years faster than an instant, and that didn't happen. Unless Sonic has went 94 billion light-years faster that an instant, I fail to see how that's relevant.

Its relevant because

 

a.) There is only 1 flash who can do that (Barry Allen I would assume)

and

b.) Flash's tend to die when they push themselves too hard.

 

Sonic shows no such limitations. Not only can Sonic prime cruise at those absurd levels of speeds and not even break a sweat and have no consequences for doing so (Although I do recall him getting stuck in a universal Slo-Mo in one issue lol) but even his notedly slower dimensional counterparts can do it as well. While we know lesser Flash's fizzle and die if they draw too much from the speedforce, Parallel Sonic's can go as beyond those limits as easily as Sonic Prime. Pirate Sonic, Cyborg Sonic and a gaggle of other misfit Sonic's traversed the cosmic interstate behind Prime Sonic no problem.

 

Wheras Flash has defined limits and consequences to his speed (even Barry has "died" and "risked death" by going "too fast") Sonic has never had that handicap.

[FantasticMrRobb]

I miss out on a lot not reading the comics, what a regret.

Oh, and I found this article where some dude done some Death Battle level research on Sonic's comic speed. (link)

Quote

Here are my calcs. for Archie Sonic. Proving why he'd destroy Flash in a fight.

First 

Sonic destroying a zone feat;
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124813/2475706-archie_sonic.jpg

Now to find the force needed to destroy the zone we first need the zone size.

As shown when Mammoth Mongul destroyed Mobius-Seventeen a zone is bigger than a galaxy.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/7/7c/798513-megaversal_sonic1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150611110349

How big specifically?
Here's a scan that tells us more;
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11111/111112784/3055124-30%5B1%5D.jpg

A zone is over 849,000 light years in diameter. 
Even with this low ball I can calc. a very high speed.

Now lets find the force generated in this feat

50,900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons of TNT to destroy the star system. = 5.09e+31 megatons 
(50,900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 mt)[50.9 nonillion mt]
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?style=4&f=2&t=4969
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-11/1004909251.As.r.html

There are an estimated 100 billion Solar Systems in the Milky way Galaxy.
http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-space/solar-systems-in-galaxy.html

Now since some Solar Systems are smaller than others I'll take the distance that the scans give us into account.

The Solar System is 1.6 light years in diameter. 
So we take the diameter of the zone and divide it by the diameter of our Solar System to get an estimate on how much bigger the zone is than our Solar System.
849,000/1.6 = 530,625
Now we average the size and number of Solar Systems to take both into account.
(530,625 + 100,000,000,000)/2 = 50,000,265,312.5

So now we take the force needed to destroy our Solar System and multiply it by our number to find out the force needed to destroy the zone.

(50,900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 mt)[50.9 nonillion mt] x 50,000,265,312.5 = 2.5450135e+42(2.5 tredecillion mt)

Now for the speed required in this feat.
Sonic's mass = 35 kgs
http://www.comicvine.com/sonic/4005-45343/

I'll use a physics calculator to find his acceleration here.
https://www.easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/force.php

Now we need the force in Newtons  so
2.5450135e+42(2.5 tredecillion mt) = 1.064833648e+58 N
http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/megatons-to-newton-meters-conversion.html

Now we have M= 35 kgs, F= 1.064833648e+58(10 648 336 480 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 just putting the number out there for the calculator) N, now we can find A(acceleration) using the physics calculator

We get A= 3.0423818514285714e+56 m/s/s the speed of light is 299 792 458 m / s
So 1.0148293e+48c(c=light speed) is Super Sonic's acceleration here.
Or 1.0148293 Quindecillion times the speed of light.

But since Knuckles also generated some of that force we'll take the force he likely generated into account.
His mass is 40 kgs
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Knuckles_the_Echidna

Now we take Knuckles and Sonic's kgs and see the percentage of what there mass is compared to their mass's combine.
Knuckles= 40kg/75kg = ~53%
Sonic=35kg/75kg = ~47%

So Sonic was moving at  1.0148293e+48c x .47(47%) = 4.7696977e+47c(476.96977 Quattuordecillion times light)

Now for Sonic's second feat.

Runs to alternate Universe:
http://i.imgur.com/IXB6nEh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hn29uLv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JcYvjxA.jpg

The first thing we need to do here is find out the amount of zones he probably crossed.

As the first and second scans imply, he crossed to a completely alternate zone to his.

From the Mammoth Mongul scan we know that there are millions of multi-verse zones.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111163804/4705859-alake.jpg

Since Sonic ran straight across the interstate we'll lowball the number to be 1 million.

Now as revealed in this scan 
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af289/lordlayer/speed%20feat%209_zps93puoaby.jpg

A small part of the road of the cosmic interstate between zones is 148,000. We'll just say 200,00 for simplicity and to be conservative and not make too many assumptions since like I said, only a small part is that big.

Now how many Zone's are in a multiverse zone. Well as shown here http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af289/lordlayer/speed%20feat%209_zps93puoaby.jpg 
there should be a bare minimum of 1,000.

So 1,000,000(the multiverse zones) x 1,000 (The zones in those multiverse zones) x 200,000 (A road of the cosmic interstate) = 2e+14 ly (200 trillion ly) 

Even if we low ball and say it took Sonic a whole minute to take his little "wrong turn" he'd move at 3.1535768241936e+28 m/s or 1.05192e+20c (105 quintillion times light)

This is impressive since Sonic was in base form and certain parts of the cosmic interstate have speed limits so Sonic would have to slow down on some parts..
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/sonic/images/9/9c/74000lightyearsperhour.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140722221300

His Super form makes him thousands of times faster.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/50262/935571-hypvsup2.jpg
I'd say it'd be at least 3,000.

So



Final tally:

Force Sonic and Knuckles generated: 2.5 tredecillion mt

Sonic moves at incalculable speeds: 4.7696977e+47c(476.96977 Quattuordecillion times light)

Sonic runs across the multiverses(W/O Super form): 1.05192e+20c (105 quintillion times light)

Sonic runs across the multiverses(W/ Super form): 3.15576e+23c(315.576 sextillion times light)

 

[Failinhearts]

The Flash. No questions asked.

Sonic's fast, but there's being quick... and then there's controlling the Speed Force that Flash has,. Even if say, Sonic goes super and remains invincible, the Flash's better reaction time, healing factor and outmatched speed among so many other aspects would definitely be able to have Sonic lose his form in time trying to even HIT the guy.

And after that, the Flash can just decimate Sonic thousands of times over.

[dbzfan7]

Flash. No contest. He's absolutely crazy. Especially Wally. Sonic is a super fast character, but Flash is a super speed powered character. By that I mean Sonic doesn't have nearly as much versatility while using speed. He's fast...but he only has a few super speed abilities maybe. Flash has many super speed abilities, like a super fast speed processing brain which would make Tails and Eggman dumbfounded. Phasing/explosion. Speed steal. Infinite Mass Punch. Just Barry and Wally running around the earth a bunch was causing untold havok on the planet. They busted through Hal Jordans Green lantern construct and almost killed him doing so. Superman himself can't keep up and tried to, but got left in the dust. And with the Strength Force, Still Force, and Sage Force storylines going on he may just end up adding those to his repertoire. Though he's still speed only, he has at least used the Strength Force for a while. Wally though did go against Hunter Zolomon who had control of ALL the forces I believe.

[SaturnWolf]

Flash. And it wouldn't even really be close. There's not really much I could add that Failin and dbz haven't already laid out already.

[Foxthefox1000]

As for the whole Archie debacle, that's not even canon and back then when he performed those feats, there waa a lot of gags and toonforce. Plus, the waterball feat is based entirely on a gaggy statement and his "light speed" statement in Colors can be explained as a cocky display, or how multiple guides contradict each other from the Sonic series yet we use them like Word of God?

I'm not saying Archie isn't FTL, but a lot of these big feats seem like exaggerations.

Let me show you some good examples: http://ulltraguy.blogspot.com/2016/07/?m=1

And then this thread: 

 

[Sega DogTagz]

If your going to blatantly ignore back issues of Sonic comics due to either its canon status or application via toonforce then you have to do the same for Flash.

The golden and silver age era DC comics are chock full of much of the same kind of nonsense, and the DC brand in of itself has been re-booted enough times to bring the canon status of almost every iteration of the flash into question. Where do you draw the line there?

 

And on top of that, Archie Sonic's highest speed feat wasn't even done back then - so its not like omitting them slows down his top speed any. It was done in the much more recent MegaMan Crossover - thus validating a lot of those old-school shenanigans as more than just boasts.

[Foxthefox1000]

But the Flash, no matter the form, has multiple instances of time travel being a basic set in his abilities due to spees, as well as him casually almost always being faster than light. Should we also forget the fact that Flash can initaite the Infinite Mass Punch which hits with the force of a White Dwarf star?

It doesn't matter the continuity, as Sonic almost always is labeled "supersonic" and/or "lightning speed" which is simply hypersonic. Current Game Sonic I guess has arguments for light speed, but that's it. And the comics are the only other place where Sonic can achieve those levels of speed.

Even in a TV Show, Flash can travel faat enough to go back in time, can outpace lightning and dodge it, and can vibrate through things. He was fast enough to enter a portal that closes in 3 picoseconds, if we want to take statements to heart.

Flash almost always has better hax amd abilities along with FTL speed to boost, making almost any version of the character massively above anything Sonic can do.

And pray tell, what feat is that? I'm legit curious.

[Sega DogTagz]

25 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

But the Flash, no matter the form, has multiple instances of time travel being a basic set in his abilities due to spees, as well as him casually almost always being faster than light. Should we also forget the fact that Flash can initaite the Infinite Mass Punch which hits with the force of a White Dwarf star?

It doesn't matter the continuity, as Sonic almost always is labeled "supersonic" and/or "lightning speed" which is simply hypersonic. Current Game Sonic I guess has arguments for light speed, but that's it. And the comics are the only other place where Sonic can achieve those levels of speed.

Even in a TV Show, Flash can travel faat enough to go back in time, can outpace lightning and dodge it, and can vibrate through things. He was fast enough to enter a portal that closes in 3 picoseconds, if we want to take statements to heart.

Flash almost always has better hax amd abilities along with FTL speed to boost, making almost any version of the character massively above anything Sonic can do.

If this discussion were limited to Game Sonic, then I'd be right there with you. However the term "The Flash" is an all encompassing term that contains so many sources that they can't all possibly be canon. In your response alone you've listed at least 2 eras of comics and a TV show. It only fair that the term "Sonic" be equally as encompassing.

Once you open the door to Archie Sonic, this becomes an entirely different argument. Most of the stuff Flash can do as a result of his speed are replicable by other speedsters. Archie Sonic has vibrated his molecules through things just like Flash (he even took Tails along for the ride in issue 119). The infinite mass punch is nothing special. Its just basic math. As the comics state, its the end result of getting punched by someone moving near the speed of light. Anyone who can run that fast would be able to do that. If Sonic was moving at light speed, his punches would hit like a dwarf star too. (he'd have to go a little bit faster since he weighs less, but you get the point).

speaking of....

 

25 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

And pray tell, what feat is that? I'm legit curious.

 

SonicMan continued to run circles around the opposition while under the effect of Time Man's "Time Slow" ability. The entire group was forced to come to realization that even under the effect of "Time Slow", SonicMan was too fast to hit.

Impressive as that is, we can't quantify that into a speed, without knowing how much of a slowdown "Time Slow" actually is.

We do however know how much of an impact Flash Man's "Time Stopper" ability does. Its been confirmed in several places (and is actually in the name of the move) that "Time Stopper" completely stops time around the target. As in absolute zero. And yet, by just in the nature of how fast SonicMan is, while under the effects of "Time Stopper" SonicMan got up, rushed FlashMan and punted him into low orbit.

Forget the speed of light. That is literally un-calculable speed. It transcends all known measurements of speed. In order to even move under the effect of a Time-Stop, SonicMan would be transcending all known physics.

The equation for speed is  (Rate = Distance/Time) In this scenario, the time elapsed for Sonic man to cover any distance, be it a single step, a short jog or across the universe is ZERO. No matter what number you plug into distance, you literally cannot measure how fast SonicMan was moving here because its faster than instantaneous travel.

Quite frankly, mathematically you can't go any faster than that.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

That's SonicMan, a different form he can't have access to again. He was under the effects of roboticization or whatever, so it's unknown whether without that form, he could even perform that feat.

Also, immunity to time manipulation isn't infinite speed. You're stopping time or inside a period of stopped time, but you, yourself, can only move as fast as you possibly could before such an instance, but to those effected, yeah, you'd be pretty much moving at infinite speeds in their perception. I guess Shadow has infinite apeeds due to moving in stopped time, which, by your standards makes his speed incalculable when performing that move and same for Jojo characters. 

Regardless, pretty sure resetting time and space and being able to enter the speed force which is kind of not weighed down by time is also equally as incalculable. And considering something as "broad" would still include the most known versions of said characters, and it's liklier that is what someone's talking about, we can then use the most common forms of abilities of said characters, in which Flash is always consistently above Sonic.

But even if we did accept that, that's exactly one instance of a version of Sonic having infinite speed and is a MASSIVE jump from massively faster than light like early Archie (albeit he has one feat, becauae picosecond seens like an extreme exaggeration and was played up as a gaggy action sequence that wouldn't even scale to his running speed anyways, and the Cosmic Interstate was him traveling to other zones of unknown sizes to collect other versions of himself while using portals to get back onto an unspecified portion of the interstate, as well as stopping inside those zones before traveling to the other zones, or in other words, unquantifiable or an outlier).

To put it bluntly, that's SonicMan Vs. Flash, not Sonic the Hedgehog, and his feats in that form have only ever been shown in that form and it's unknown whether they carried over to normal Sonic (albeit he wasn't massively outspeeding everything and Super Sonic wouldn't even be a boost to all stats at that point, so likely not). And again, early Archie suffers from exaggerations and two infamous MFTL feats that have conflicting contexts in the series or are instances of running speed and combat speed separately, so they can both technically classify as outliers if we take the very broad high-ends people try and make for them. And also again, most well-known versions or current versions have the Flash at a massive speed advantage, whether you like it or not.

[Sega DogTagz]

54 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

That's SonicMan, a different form he can't have access to again. He was under the effects of roboticization or whatever, so it's unknown whether without that form, he could even perform that feat.

You say that like DC characters don't constantly gain access to spontaneous power boosts.

 

Either way, SonicMan is still Sonic, and to that end, we can see that there is little if any power gain by the process via the other characters that went through the same process. Its worth noting that none of the other Robotisized Masters, Amy, Shadow, Tails, ect.  showed any degree of exponential growth in their abilities from pre-transformation to post. SilverMan was no more adept at ESP than Silver. BlazeWoman was no better at controlling Fire than Blaze. SonicMan was no faster than Sonic.

 

Quote

Also, immunity to time manipulation isn't infinite speed.

SonicMan was not immune. In fact, his processor was designed around QuickMan, the RobotMaster whom was actually weak to Time Stopper in MM2.

Furthermore, TimeMan flat out stated that he had been slowing SonicMan down with his ability. That he had been doing so for the entity of their fight. It just didn't matter because he was still too fast for them. After that, Flash Man, activated his Flash Stopper and sent SonicMan tumbling straight down and crashing. It clearly effected him before he got back up and turned on the speed.

SonicMan was not immune. He just outran it. That is infinite speed.

 

Quote

You're stopping time or inside a period of stopped time, but you, yourself, can only move as fast as you possibly could before such an instance, but to those effected, yeah, you'd be pretty much moving at infinite speeds in their perception. 

It would be the perception of those around you and the reality. Mathematically, the only way to move under a complete time stop scenario would be to be traveling at a speed that surpasses infinity.

 

Quote

I guess Shadow has infinite apeeds due to moving in stopped time, which, by your standards makes his speed incalculable when performing that move and same for Jojo characters. 

If Shadow were to completely stop time via chaos control or if Flash Man were to use his Flash Stopper on an opponent, he would only be moving at infinite speed relative to the people around him. It has more to do with them being stopped than Shadow or Flash Man speeding up.

SonicMan gains those speeds by speeding up. Complexly different scenario. End result looks the same, but only one is a result of pure speed. SonicMan is moving faster than time elapses.

 

Quote

Regardless, pretty sure resetting time and space and being able to enter the speed force which is kind of not weighed down by time is also equally as incalculable. And considering something as "broad" would still include the most known versions of said characters, and it's liklier that is what someone's talking about, we can then use the most common forms of abilities of said characters, in which Flash is always consistently above Sonic.

Pretty much all of those abilities are surpassed and then some by what Sonic can do when he is tapped into the Chaos Force. He rewrites reality which includes space and time.

And for all the times Flash is consistently above Sonic, he is also consistently faced with death when he pushes himself that hard. Sonic isnt.

 

Quote

But even if we did accept that, that's exactly one instance of a version of Sonic having infinite speed and is a MASSIVE jump from massively faster than light like early Archie (albeit he has one feat, becauae picosecond seens like an extreme exaggeration and was played up as a gaggy action sequence that wouldn't even scale to his running speed anyways, and the Cosmic Interstate was him traveling to other zones of unknown sizes to collect other versions of himself while using portals to get back onto an unspecified portion of the interstate, as well as stopping inside those zones before traveling to the other zones, or in other words, unquantifiable or an outlier).

You can't label something at outlier if he's constantly doing things that show it is within his feasible range.

 

Vibrating your molecules through solid objects requires MFTL speed. 

Traveling the cosmic interstate requires MFTL speed (and he's legged it through here more than once)

The waterball requires MFTL speed

Dodging lightning and running between raindrops is MFTL

Throwing sand getting traction and running along it before the physics sets in is MFTL

Being fast enough to "see" Shadow warp past him in SA2 is MFTL

SonicMan is .... Jesus

 

The list goes on. And thats even ignoring the blatantly stupid stuff like Punching his own shadow or spinning so fast he becomes invisible

 

At what point is this not an outlier and just what the character is capable of doing.

 

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To put it bluntly, that's SonicMan Vs. Flash, not Sonic the Hedgehog, and his feats in that form have only ever been shown in that form and it's unknown whether they carried over to normal Sonic (albeit he wasn't massively outspeeding everything and Super Sonic wouldn't even be a boost to all stats at that point, so likely not). And again, early Archie suffers from exaggerations and two infamous MFTL feats that have conflicting contexts in the series or are instances of running speed and combat speed separately, so they can both technically classify as outliers if we take the very broad high-ends people try and make for them. And also again, most well-known versions or current versions have the Flash at a massive speed advantage, whether you like it or not.

Most versions of Flash tend to die if they go at half the speeds we are talking about.

Sonic has feats that put him in the MFTL category and nothing from the previous set of robotmasters suggested a significant boost to capabilities. (if anything, its holding him back)

[Foxthefox1000]

Um, half of those things you listed aren't FTL. Vibrating molecules? Where's your math to support that? The raindrops and lightning? No. Not at all. That takes mach speeds.

Being infused with Quick Man's whatever IS an enhancement. It's conjecture at best to think he's able to do that in base form as Sonic Man is the ONLY instance of it happening. They added analytics of Sonic to one of the quickest robot's abilities or whatever. That's the explanation given, and that's what I'm going to believe unless stated otherwise or shown in his base form.

Chaos Force is completely situational and something ONLY SUPER Sonic can do WITH help, no less. You wanna be all specific about names, then I'll be specific too, as "Super" or "Ultra" aren't in the title.

And as for the others, I'm pretty sure they were enhanced in some way in terms of physical capabilities, and even if not, Sonic has the special case pf having another Robot Master's data and has that one specification on them, which is an explanation to an ability never displayed before.

The waterball is a combat speed/reaction feat, and as I've said, the Cosmic Interstate isn't given a timeframe for us to measure, is made of differently sized zones that aren't inhernetly universes, he STOPPED at each one, and entered PORTALS to get into and onto the roads. Those signs have been used for gags and jokes, and as such, It's unclear if we're to take the signs seriously as the length of distance he's traveled, and have you actually looked at the links? Perhaps then you wouldn't constantly keep pushing these instances instead of trying to provide counterarguments to those guy's points? Also, when in times of need, he's never displayed such impressive speeds like that before, so what? He's "constantly holding back" even in dire situations where his friend's lives depend on his speed? That'd be dumb. That very same issue with the 2x light speed has Robotnik up close and reacting to Sonic, of all people and it's a boast.

You can go ahead and consider Sonic MFTL and Immeasurable in speed, but apparently Wally West's Flash can just run through time and timelines as well as has similar speed, so then it's a draw. And reminder, this is a SPEED battle, not a full-on display of everything else. Based on pure running speed, Sonic has ONE instance where his running speed could be interpreted as moving at MFTL speeds to an absurd degree, and exactly one highly questionable instance of "immeasurable" speed in a form that's not in his base set as well as has specifically has been mentioned to have an additive of two character's data including his own, so by definition, no, it isn't what his base form is capable of. This isn't negotiable and it is stated. Interpret however you like, but that's all it is at that point: Speculation.

Heck, even in terms of combat, Flash with the speed force was also able to damage the Anti Monitor, a Multiversal entity that Superman and other JL member couldn't even dent, so it's not like he can't do damage, even if the multiversal stuff was literally situational hax and everyone ended up erased and effected anyways, even Sonic and Mega Man.

But whatever. You're clearly not gonna change your mind anytime soon and I'm losing patience. You do you, and I'll do me.

[Skull Leader]

Personally, I'd rather see Sonic compete with more fair choices like Road Runner or Speedy Gonzalez.

[Foxthefox1000]

Speaking of them, what even is their top speeds? I haven't seen one single person agree with how fast those two are. Has it ever been measured?

[Sega DogTagz]

19 hours ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

Um, half of those things you listed aren't FTL. Vibrating molecules? Where's your math to support that? The raindrops and lightning? No. Not at all. That takes mach speeds.

Are you seriously questioning the FTL status of moving so fast you become intangible? Does that sound like anything someone can do without obliterating the lightspeed wall? The Super Collider smashes atoms together at lightspeed and they haven't had any particles phase through each other yet.

But if you want math.... fine.

The only phenomenon I can think of where two solid objects are capable of moving through each other as a result of an impact is Quantum Tunneling. Super long story short, when you are dealing with Quantum Mechanics, there is a notable possibility that some particles, when smashed head-on into other particles have an unusual tendency to come out the other side. Not punch through, put phase or "tunnel" through another solid object. Something that would otherwise be impossible. This is probably most common in electrons and it happens often enough that it is the reason micro-transistors in computer chips can't be built below a certain size threshold.

Looking at the speed of which this phenomenon takes place, more than a few scientists of published reports that it appears to be an instantaneous model. Here is one take from 2015

https://phys.org/news/2015-05-physicists-quantum-tunneling-mystery.html#jCp

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"At that timescale the time an electron takes to quantum tunnel out of an atom was thought to be significant. But the mathematics says the time during tunneling is imaginary - a complex number which we realised meant it must be an instantaneous process," said Professor Kheifets.

 

Even through there is some variation around recent studies here and there, they all concur that at the slowest end of the spectrum this is AttoSecond level research. Which would place any form of Quantum Tunnel well WELL beyond light speed.

And if it is actually instantaneous as some of the reports seem to believe, that would make vibrating your molecules a feat on part with his SonicMan Stunt. Even if it falls in the attosecond range that's still in spitting distance of the smallest moment of time we are able to observe.

 

19 hours ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

Being infused with Quick Man's whatever IS an enhancement. It's conjecture at best to think he's able to do that in base form as Sonic Man is the ONLY instance of it happening. They added analytics of Sonic to one of the quickest robot's abilities or whatever. That's the explanation given, and that's what I'm going to believe unless stated otherwise or shown in his base form.

Base Sonic embarrassed QuickMan all over the battlefield in the previous crossover. His speed wasn't even comparable to Sonic. Calling any component from QuickMan added onto SonicMan an upgrade would be like taking the engine out of a prius and throwing it into an F1 speedster and calling that an upgrade.

 

19 hours ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

Chaos Force is completely situational and something ONLY SUPER Sonic can do WITH help, no less. You wanna be all specific about names, then I'll be specific too, as "Super" or "Ultra" aren't in the title.

Sonic didn't need any help in any of the instances he turned reality on its head. And seeing as how he can pull Chaos Energy from the environment, it isn't all too much different from what most of the Flash's do with the speed force.

 

 

19 hours ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

And as for the others, I'm pretty sure they were enhanced in some way in terms of physical capabilities, and even if not, Sonic has the special case pf having another Robot Master's data and has that one specification on them, which is an explanation to an ability never displayed before.

Prove that. I you feel confident that the previous Robot masters had enhanced physical capabilities then show me where they put it on display. From where I am sitting I didn't see ShadowMan do anything that would prove difficult for Shadow, or EspioMan do anything the original couldn't do just as well.

 

19 hours ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

The waterball is a combat speed/reaction feat, and as I've said, the Cosmic Interstate isn't given a timeframe for us to measure, is made of differently sized zones that aren't inhernetly universes, he STOPPED at each one, and entered PORTALS to get into and onto the roads. Those signs have been used for gags and jokes, and as such, It's unclear if we're to take the signs seriously as the length of distance he's traveled, and have you actually looked at the links? Perhaps then you wouldn't constantly keep pushing these instances instead of trying to provide counterarguments to those guy's points? Also, when in times of need, he's never displayed such impressive speeds like that before, so what? He's "constantly holding back" even in dire situations where his friend's lives depend on his speed? That'd be dumb. That very same issue with the 2x light speed has Robotnik up close and reacting to Sonic, of all people and it's a boast.

The links are irrelevant because the guy behind those arguments couldn't see the forest through the trees.

Take the cosmic interstate for example. Sure you can't use the entire feat as a precise measurement of speed because we are missing too much data. Without the precise time it took to make the round trip and the individual sizes of each universe, its impossible to get a realistic number. However that does not mean we can't extrapolate value from the feat from the information we do have. It specifically states that the entrance to the cosmic interstate is at the edge of the known universe. While we don't know the exact distance of the interstate between each dimension, we do know the size of our universe-at around 46 billion light years. Lets unrealistically lowball that and say the milkyway galaxy is on the edge of the known universe. The M W is at least 125,000 Light years across. For Sonic to run that far and return in any amount of time that did not see him age into dust makes him MFTL. It doesn't matter if it took him a second, an hour, a day or a year. To go that far and come back means he would have been traveling at a speed that makes thousands of lightyears child's play. And that's without getting into campy roadsigns, or what he did in each universe or whatever. We know he's MFTL just by has ability to reach the interstate at all.

 

 

[Diogenes]

34 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Are you seriously questioning the FTL status of moving so fast you become intangible? Does that sound like anything someone can do without obliterating the lightspeed wall?

I mean it sounds like complete nonsense, like most overanalyzed super powers. FTL or sub light speed, it's basically "really fast, therefore magic happens".