The General American Politics Thread

[Mad Convoy]

I have a lot of respect for Sanders. He seems very genuine and caring, not to mention that he's handled the idea of a Trump presidency very maturely. I believe Sanders when he says he's going to try to vouch for minorities, though how successful he will be at that is still to be determined. Partially because Trump and Pence, but also because his support base isn't as united as it was when he started campaigning. His endorsement of Clinton, as reasonable as it is for somebody who wants people to unite behind progressivism and not treat this like a "vote for me or torch everything else" scenario, really upset a lot of his fans who now considered his condemnations of Clinton in the past to have been just lies or considering that the moment when he sold out instead of sticking to his promises of change. He's going to have to do quite a bit to earn their trust and respect again or to gain enough followers to compensate for the ones who have left-- not impossible, especially for a guy like Bernie, but really hard.

I am worried about voter suppression, but unless the government starts endorsing programs to, say, kill non-Republicans or force them to leave the polling places against their will, it can still be fought by large turnout, protests, and education on common voter suppression tactics so that people can identify attempts and be prepared to do something about it. Something like 48% of the people who could have voted this year didn't-- while I'm sure there are some silent Trumpers, hopeless third party supporters, etc. in there, I'm willing to bet the majority of them are progressives. We need to change that. This has snapped a lot of progressives out of their complacency and motivated them to do something big about Trump and Pence, but there are still a lot out there that remain apathetic or feel too hopeless to try to do something about this. That as well needs to change, especially in areas like North Carolina where violence and overt expressions of bigotry have spiked, which absolutely does need to be addressed and not just because it happens to be a great thing for progressives to unite against. If we don't make changes quick enough or put up enough of a fight, however, we could be facing a rise of extreme conservatives like alt right supporters across the West on the same level as the extreme liberals like the Communists rose in the 20th century-- as a strong believer in the horseshoe theory, I feel that this would cause a throwback to some of the worst things the 20th century had to offer.

I'm hoping that this triggers DNC to change. I haven't bought the equivalency narrative between the RNC and the DNC for years, but there are some serious issues regarding hypocrisy in the DNC in terms of how it handles sexism, racism, etc. and criticizes Republican gaffes. Not to mention that much like the RNC, its dominated by rich establishment males -- and while they are well meaning, it demonstrates that for all their attempts to help the poor and marginalized and strides to incorporate as many kinds of people as possible, the systemic sexism, classism, and complacency has yet to vanish in the so-called "party of progress". While this election has shown that while rich men are still preferred to women in politics overall, progressives have not only realized that sexism and classism still rule the day in both parties but have concluded that, like the Trump supporters, they simply don't want complacency in the establishment anymore. The effect should be interesting as the DNC rebuilds itself.

[Tornado]

Even if the DNC decides for god knows what reason that they want to keep the leadership in place, they need to act fast to get the rumors out about a 2020 candidate to build up momentum for the midterms. Even before the Wikileaks stuff basically codified it, they clearly had spent the last 4 (if not 8) years with their thumbs up their asses until it was "Hillary's turn" so they could throw the full weight behind her.  It's deeply telling that the DNC basically cleared the table for her this time even though she was obviously deeply unpopular in 2008; and because they didn't even fucking bother to poll their other options its impossible to know if any other candidate could have gone the distance as much as she did.

9 hours ago, Noelgilvie said:

All the money,

Jesus, she didn't even spend a cent in Michigan.

[Candescence]

Unfortunately, it seems Hilary's aides are blaming everyone else but their own campaign for Trump's victory. Idiots.

Hopefully this shock result lights a fire under the DNC's asses. Fortunately, one of the good signs is that both Bernie and Senator Charles Schumer (the new leader of the Senate Democrats) are backing Keith Ellison (the first Muslim elected to congress) to get the DNC chair. Warren has also basically endorsed Ellison. The DNC definitely needs new blood, and someone like Ellison is something the DNC needs to get its ass in gear.

[Hyp3hat]

3 hours ago, Mad Convoy said:

I am worried about voter suppression, but unless the government starts endorsing programs to, say, kill non-Republicans or force them to leave the polling places against their will, it can still be fought by large turnout, protests, and education on common voter suppression tactics so that people can identify attempts and be prepared to do something about it. Something like 48% of the people who could have voted this year didn't-- while I'm sure there are some silent Trumpers, hopeless third party supporters, etc. in there, I'm willing to bet the majority of them are progressives. We need to change that. This has snapped a lot of progressives out of their complacency and motivated them to do something big about Trump and Pence, but there are still a lot out there that remain apathetic or feel too hopeless to try to do something about this. That as well needs to change, especially in areas like North Carolina where violence and overt expressions of bigotry have spiked, which absolutely does need to be addressed and not just because it happens to be a great thing for progressives to unite against. If we don't make changes quick enough or put up enough of a fight, however, we could be facing a rise of extreme conservatives like alt right supporters across the West on the same level as the extreme liberals like the Communists rose in the 20th century-- as a strong believer in the horseshoe theory, I feel that this would cause a throwback to some of the worst things the 20th century had to offer.

As an Englishman abroad, I cannot stress this enough - this event should be a catalyst for you Americans to mobilise, if even in a small way. Go ask your local Democratic office what you can do, go ask your local Planned Parenthood clinics how you can volunteer or assist, turn up and speak up at town hall meetings in your community, just go and do something. There's a lot of these places that could make a difference in your local community but for boots on the ground, and you could be those boots. This stuff beats apathy or misinformation, you have to get out there and help and educate these people. It doesn't have to be a big change, but you can do valuable work within your communities. 

I am personally gutted by the fact I cannot be that change back home - my career has taken me to China, so I cannot fight the tide of right-wing Brexit fuckery back in England even though I wish to, as I hate it with a sublime passion. I fled, I guess, although I was planning to go anyway. Now I catch myself wondering whether I want to go back and nothing makes me feel quite as sad. You have a duty to the Americans that Trump has left behind or demonised in his candidacy to stand by them during his presidency, and any small way you contribute can help.

I welled up tonight thinking about the fact that I kept a copy of the paper from the day Barack Obama got elected, and how at the time I thought that moment finally put a lot of America's dark history straight into the dustbin. As I grew up, there was a lot I learnt that changed the naive picture I had, but I still hold onto that moment as a lovely vision of a future. You are still the country that elected Barack Obama twice, and you can make that change.

 

I'm very sentimental tonight, I guess.

[MadmanRB]

So here is a good logical question I am unsure anyone can answer.
If you say met a latino man, or a lesbian, or a fresh off the boat African man who came here legally and they all decided to vote for Donald Trump what will you ask them?

[Indigo Rush]

I would ask them out for a beer or ask if they watched the game last night because we eventually need to move on from the 'what happened' and start talking about the 'what we'll do for the future,' and in the meantime we need to connect and unify because that's really what America needs right now.

[KHCast]

I personally don't understand the people getting pissy about trump protests as if it's pointless. It's a form of freedom of expression. It makes clear to trump that they won't take oppression laying down and are willing to defy him. And people replying to #notmypresident with "if that's how you feel, leave" seriously don't seem to want to understand the point of that message, and instead take it seriously and go the basic "if you don't like it, get out" route. And again, quite telling that it's usually white men replying angrily to the responses to trumps presidency.

 

I mean where's this anger and frustration with the trump supporters and people feeling entitled to tell slurs, threaten and beat people? 

[Nepenthe]

It's funny because Trump told people to protest Obama's elections.

[Agie]

They do sound entitled. I do hope they work.

So what do I say? Please keep protesting. But beware of those who mean to bring harm.

[Nepenthe]

Even Obama is like "I wanna see the receipts" -- he's signed an executive order demanding a recount on Dec. 19th.

[KHCast]

I'm having this discussion with my white optimistic friend about trumps "support" for minorities. Apparently Trump hasn't given me anything I should be worried about as a black or gay man, and his policies have simply been misunderstood. He's not discriminating. And he'll help blacks! Let's ignore the blanket assumptions he's made about blacks and Hispanics, the supporters that encourage slurs towards those groups at his rallies and he doesn't say anything,etc. he's not a discriminatory man

[Conando]

23 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Even Obama is like "I wanna see the receipts" -- he's signed an executive order demanding a recount on Dec. 19th.

That's fake.

[nintega137]

1 minute ago, Conando said:

That's fake.

I had a feeling

And no offense dude but i hope you're wrong lmao

[Nepenthe]

Well darn, I just feel right silly.

[nintega137]

10 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Well darn, I just feel right silly.

DAMN IT NEP! YOU GOT MY HOPES UP FOR NOTHING! you ruin everything.              Anyway anybody notice how people say we should just shut up and resepect our president because hes the president yet they didnt do the same for obama?

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

I personally don't understand the people getting pissy about trump protests as if it's pointless. It's a form of freedom of expression. It makes clear to trump that they won't take oppression laying down and are willing to defy him. And people replying to #notmypresident with "if that's how you feel, leave" seriously don't seem to want to understand the point of that message, and instead take it seriously and go the basic "if you don't like it, get out" route. And again, quite telling that it's usually white men replying angrily to the responses to trumps presidency.

 

I mean where's this anger and frustration with the trump supporters and people feeling entitled to tell slurs, threaten and beat people? 

I am going to one day protest about candy and wanting them banned.

I understand about freedom of expression, like a billion times already. And you want to "tell" Trump "He's not your president", even though you are an American citizen.

What I'm saying is, it's NOT helping. It is not going to solve anything. Protest all you like, but Donald Trump will still be the next president of the United States. Trump went all this far to become president, got abused, mocked by half of America and the world...and you think he's going to start listening now?

Ohhhhh! I see! You want Trump to step down. Okay. Then Mike Pence will become the new president. Is that what you want?

[Patticus]

Trump's filling his transition team with establishment figures (corporate consultants, lobbyists, DC insiders) in a swift and brutal betrayal of his anti-establishment, forgotten-feeling base of support.

Quote

An organizational chart of Trump’s transition team shows it to be crawling with corporate lobbyists, representing such clients as Altria, Visa, Coca-Cola, General Electric, Verizon, HSBC, Pfizer, Dow Chemical, and Duke Energy. And K Street is positively salivating over all the new opportunities they’ll have to deliver goodies to their clients in the Trump era. Who could possibly have predicted such a thing?

The answer is, anyone who was paying attention. Look at the people Trump is considering for his Cabinet, and you won’t find any outside-the-box thinkers burning to work for the little guy. It’s a collection of Republican politicians and corporate plutocrats — not much different from who you’d find in any Republican administration.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/11/11/if-you-voted-for-trump-because-hes-anti-establishment-guess-what-you-got-conned/

If the trend holds, and there's little to suggest it won't, we're looking at the greatest salesman in the history of mankind; a wealthy businessman, who saw tens of millions of gullible suckers crying out for a champion, and conned the lot. A super-state fell to his salesmanship.

It's as impressive as it is agonizing.

[Tani Coyote]

https://www.rt.com/usa/366499-sanders-2020-presidential-election/

I do think Bernie plans on living forever. He hasn't ruled out 2020.

I think he'd be better served backing a Warren candidacy though.

Hopefully Trump's 4 years of Hell will serve to strengthen support for liberalism a la the perceived failure of Hoover did FDR.

On the other hand, FDR was a master pragmatist and was able to make non-whites and Southern racists work together.

8 hours ago, Mad Convoy said:

He's going to have to do quite a bit to earn their trust and respect again or to gain enough followers to compensate for the ones who have left-- not impossible, especially for a guy like Bernie, but really hard.

When they see the GOP running this country off a cliff straight into the abyss, I do believe the Bernie Bros will realize he was only making the best of a bad situation.

Disenchanted Bernie supporters, third party voters, voter suppression, Clinton's arrogance, the DNC's favoritism, Clinton's verbal gaffe and its apparent coldness to an emotional electorate all combined with the unsavory elements in Trump's camp to give him the White House.

6 hours ago, Tornado said:

Jesus, she didn't even spend a cent in Michigan.

Yeah that was... wow.

It's amazing how arrogant the campaign was.

One positive of this election is never again will a winner be "obvious."

Then again memories are short.

5 hours ago, Candescence said:

Unfortunately, it seems Hilary's aides are blaming everyone else but their own campaign for Trump's victory. Idiots.

Hopefully this shock result lights a fire under the DNC's asses. Fortunately, one of the good signs is that both Bernie and Senator Charles Schumer (the new leader of the Senate Democrats) are backing Keith Ellison (the first Muslim elected to congress) to get the DNC chair. Warren has also basically endorsed Ellison. The DNC definitely needs new blood, and someone like Ellison is something the DNC needs to get its ass in gear.

https://go.berniesanders.com/page/s/keith-ellison-dnc?source=tw161110

Bernie's also asking all his supporters to sign a petition supporting Ellison as the DNC chair. He's going to present the signatures to make his case.

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

I personally don't understand the people getting pissy about trump protests as if it's pointless.

Admittedly, my gut reaction when I first saw them, given he's the winner.

Though now I can see the positives of it: it shows there's a huge, active number of people who will oppose the moGOPoly on power. It shows a lot aren't alone in this.

I'm just hoping they're all networking. This initial surge of emotion will run out, and they need to be in contact with each other to turn out in 2018 and 2020. Even moreso given I imagine a lot of protesters won't have their right to vote in those, so every vote counts.

The energy in the protests is good, but it needs to be channeled to be of future use. Consider this: BLM has concrete goals, and it has seen success. Protests by themselves aren't going to make Trump step down, but they can serve as a launchpad for future activism and reform.

16 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Well darn, I just feel right silly.

In fairness it does look pretty convincing at first glance.

They're buttholes for making a joke like that right now though.

[Patticus]

1 hour ago, Noelgilvie said:

https://www.rt.com/usa/366499-sanders-2020-presidential-election/

I do think Bernie plans on living forever. He hasn't ruled out 2020.

I think he'd be better served backing a Warren candidacy though.

A Warren/Bernie ticket would be a fine thing to see. First, however, the Warren/Sanders progressive wing of the party needs to win the upcoming battle for the chairmanship of the DNC. Even then, though, I have my doubts that the Democrats should be fielding such elderly candidates - young blood is a necessity, handing over the reigns of power to the younger generations is a must.

Maybe Ellison should run in 2020, with Warren as the VP pic, or vice versa?

Edit: Trump might make a complete or partial u-turn on repealing the Affordable Care Act, which would mark another betrayal of his supporters.

Quote

Donald Trump has said that he might not repeal Obamacare, perhaps his biggest campaign promise.

The President-elect performed the apparent U-turn after his meeting with Barack Obama at the White House this week, he has said.

Mr Trump is going to look at "amending" the Affordable Care Act, rather than completely repealing it, he told the Wall Street Journal.

"Either Obamacare will be amended, or repealed and replaced," Trump told the newspaper. "I told him I will look at his suggestions, and out of respect, I will do that."

...

Speaking to the Wall Street Journal, Mr Trump said that he may well keep at least two of the main provisions of the healthcare bill. He said that he is favouring retaining a key part of Obamacare that stops insurers from refusing to cover people because they have existing conditions, and another that lets parents add coverage for their children to their own policies.

“I like those very much,” he told the paper.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-obamacare-repeals-latest-policies-quote-replacement-president-elect-a7412621.html

Imagine the alt-right's salty tears when the whole damn thing turns out to just be a gigantic bait-and-switch, and Trump is actually a socialist plant.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Out of curiosity, what is the likelihood of one political party attempting to assassinate members of the other party to keep control in the USA?

[Patticus]

4 minutes ago, SenEDtor Missile said:

Out of curiosity, what is the likelihood of one political party attempting to assassinate members of the other party to keep control in the USA?

Low, as I'd think that most party members are too respectful of the democratic process (as flawed and weird as it is) to interfere with it that way.

A military coup might take place under certain extreme circumstances, but I'd like to hope that Trump won't stray anywhere near them.

[Indigo Rush]

2 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Well darn, I just feel right silly.

Spoiler

((( not rubbing your nose in it at all, just thought this description was bloody hilarious, I love you 'penthe pls dont ban )))

 

[Tornado]

 

[Mad Convoy]

Oh god, could you imagine if the entire time, Trump was just trying to uphold the establishment because it benefitted him? I always knew this was a scam but I didn't suspect that kind of scam. I'm pretty sure the alt right would be the ones protesting in the streets instead-- and it would probably get less derision because of white privilege (that and I suspect less people would show up). It would be one of those things that hurt support for both his extremists and some of his moderates-- but if he doesn't, that will also hurt his poorer audience's support of him as they tend to to like Obamacare.

Its more fuel for progressives, but I really wish people didn't have to suffer to get progressives motivated to do something and make changes. Ugh, this going to suck and I only have a basic idea of how.

I'm just not sure how to fight it. It seems like so many people have already decided and are assuming that Trump won't really implement his policies or be able to implement them well. And fine, there is reason to believe that he won't be nearly as successful as he and supporters would like him to be-- but he only has to try a few things to set a bad precedent for racism, sexism, etc., to land the country in hot water, or to cause long term damage. Remember Bush? He never reached dictator status, true, but he got us entangled in the Iraq War just when the US was starting to distance ourself from Arabian conflicts, ballooned the deficit, and generally proved to be enough of an embarrassment that in many ways, America's reputation has not recovered from. He also paved the way for Obama to be elected-- but Obama's impact is going to be heavily stymied by Trump in ways we can't even begin to imagine. This demonstrates that the DNC absolutely cannot be comfortable that its won the war when its really only won one or two battles at best, and needs to know how to maintain its appeal long term and not just assume that the Obama coalition will carry over to the next Democrat all the time (because clearly, it didn't, and while I don't believe for a second that Trump stands for all of the forgotten voters, he brought up a valid point about the Democrats not being nearly as open to everybody as they make claims to).

On the other hand, I'm worried that the progressives are going about the wrong way in fighting him. Many are turning to violence and symbolic hate gestures like effigy and flag burning. Others are encouraging people to panic and be as angry as possible. Those are not good ways to band together and fight oppression-- they make the protesters' cause look really bad and confirm what Trump supporters thought about Clinton supporters being whiny babies all along. We need peaceful protest, we need to stick to legal measures of prevention like obstruction and lawsuits, we need to keep the dialogue going, and we need to resist the urge to make ridiculous, catastrophic claims and insults, and do ridiculous actions that only discredit the genuine worries and civil protests.

I might write up a personal expectations in the PD, because I happen to live in a small, rich conservative town that's facing a similar issue as small towns across the country in terms of trying to balance the beliefs they're exposed to from the cities (where most people work) with the traditional conservatism that defines small town culture. I already went a fair bit into it in a status update reply, but I would be willing to elaborate on what I already said and make some more points if I were to post in the PD.

[Tani Coyote]

 

1 hour ago, Patticus said:

A Warren/Bernie ticket would be a fine thing to see. First, however, the Warren/Sanders progressive wing of the party needs to win the upcoming battle for the chairmanship of the DNC. Even then, though, I have my doubts that the Democrats should be fielding such elderly candidates - young blood is a necessity, handing over the reigns of power to the younger generations is a must.

I'd especially be wary of a Bernie/Warren ticket, because there's a realistic chance of both passing away in office and giving the Presidency to the Speaker of the House, who will quite likely end up being Republican.

1 hour ago, Patticus said:

Maybe Ellison should run in 2020, with Warren as the VP pic, or vice versa?

Edit: Trump might make a complete or partial u-turn on repealing the Affordable Care Act, which would mark another betrayal of his supporters.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-obamacare-repeals-latest-policies-quote-replacement-president-elect-a7412621.html

Imagine the alt-right's salty tears when the whole damn thing turns out to just be a gigantic bait-and-switch, and Trump is actually a socialist plant.

My God.

Was Obama actually able to sit down with him and persuade him of its merits?

The way this is going, Obama's making one last good overture while in office.

The problem is, how will Trump respond to the inevitable uproar in the GOP establishment, who will block his own programs?

...unless Trump puts on his act again, and manages to vilify Ryan and McConnell for standing in the way of the Great Wall of America.

I don't know who to root for in this case. I can just hope they check each other.

2 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Oh god, could you imagine if the entire time, Trump was just trying to uphold the establishment because it benefitted him? I always knew this was a scam but I didn't suspect that kind of scam. 

I'm surprised this is taking anybody by surprise. Trump is a capitalist. The same class who enslaved an entire race of people for their personal enrichment in the South. The same class that sent jobs overseas and left countless people unemployed or with sour economic prospects in the Rust Belt. The same class that spearheaded marijuana prohibition and the War on Drugs for personal gain. The South and North should absolutely form a political coalition, as they did this election, but they made it for the wrong reasons.

Consider the fact very few wealthy people say "I have what I need, I'll give the rest to charity!" It speaks automatically to their values.

The day a rich man gives a damn about anybody but the rich is miraculous.

2 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

I'm just not sure how to fight it. It seems like so many people have already decided and are assuming that Trump won't really implement his policies or be able to implement them well.

Really?

Vote in 2018, maybe even 2017 if there's any off-year elections. Remind people to vote as Election Day nears.

Make sure everyone has their voter IDs to comply with voter ID laws if necessary.

We don't need to necessarily become huge activists, but spreading the word via social media and with our close friends is a way to make a difference. If we all do it, we can have maximum reward with minimal effort.