The General American Politics Thread

[Tornado]

Hitler was a fascist. A rather big difference.

 

 

 

There's also a bit of an elephant in the room here. Bernie Sanders presumably wants most of those things in America, but I don't think (for example) his solution to "eliminate class inequality" is "eliminate most of the people in the unequal classes" or his gun control policies are idealized on the basis of "so the Schutzstaffel can do their job more easily."

 

 

33 minutes ago, Sonikku Mikyeong said:

I do have a question; how long would I have to be live/be a citizen of the US before I could vote? 

And also, I do wonder if leaning to the right in Japan equates to leaning in the right in the US, as they seem similar but I am not sure. Being right wing in Japan is pretty much a more conservaitive approach though other conservatives are different such as not having a sense of nationalism etc 

The main difference between the US and most countries is that the conservative element of the government rarely is so religiously related outside of the US. The closest analog would probably be Israel.

[Nepenthe]

13 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

It would have to be a year at least, I think.

I hate the left and right dichotomy though. It's so nebulous and vague, so you have people trying to argue that Hitler was right wing despite the fact that he was a Socialist, wanted to remove class inequality, implemented gun control and socialized health care and welfare programs, etc.

You can't argue that political terms are ambiguous and then go on to try to argue Hitler's idealogy was non-right wing through outright false claims and equating positions through vague equivalences of supposed end goals.

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

You can't argue that political terms are ambiguous and then go on to try to argue Hitler's idealogy was non-right wing through outright false claims and equating positions through vague equivalences of supposed end goals.

I'm actually trying to argue that people use its vagueness to create false associations with today's conservatives. You know, like with Trump. <3

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

OK thanks. 

Also, I am for socialism in America. I know its an unpopular opinion but I really do think it will solve some of America's economy problems. In most socialist countries, there is no homeless and no body trying to apply for government assistance. Even in Japan there are homeless but again capitalism (? yeah I don't pay much attention to the economy. Heck I am not fore sure what america has either). I just dislike the idea that if you don't got it, our left to rot out there and that's no way to treat people. Especially for countries are are considered the richest. Places in Europe have good economies yet they have universal health care etc etc. 

I just don't see that in this eletection being addressed except from Sanders and Trump - heck Trump wants the rich to be taxed more and I agree. 

[Nepenthe]

10 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I'm actually trying to argue that people use its vagueness to create false associations with today's conservatives. You know, like with Trump. <3

Not a false assertion to say modern GOP has been actively courting racist whites since the 60s and 70s and Trump has jumped on the xenophobic fears of this branch of party regardless whether or not he actually believes it. Your personal ignorance of political positions and what politicians have been saying and advocating for through speech and policy isn't a rebuttal.

[Hyp3hat]

4 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I'm actually trying to argue that people use its vagueness to create false associations with today's conservatives. You know, like with Trump. <3

Fascism isn't a vague term, it's a definite political ideology - as stated above. It has a long and really, really shitty history. Trump isn't a fascist in the 'Trump Uber Alles' sense, but his border policy, rhetoric, and courting to white nationalists certainly is reminiscent of it, so that's why people bring it up.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

He's more a socialist in my opinion. Nowhere neat a fascist. 

[shdowhunt60]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Not a false assertion to say modern GOP has been actively courting racist whites since the 60s and 70s and Trump has jumped on the xenophobic fears of this branch of party regardless whether or not he actually believes it. Your personal ignorance of political positions and what politicians have been saying and advocating for through speech and policy isn't a rebuttal.

Actually it's more that I don't care. The GOP has little to no power, and they lack the teeth or the wit to do anything. If it's racists I'm afraid of, it's the democrats.

[Hyp3hat]

8 minutes ago, Sonikku Mikyeong said:

OK thanks. 

Also, I am for socialism in America. I know its an unpopular opinion but I really do think it will solve some of America's economy problems. In most socialist countries, there is no homeless and no body trying to apply for government assistance. Even in Japan there are homeless but again capitalism (? yeah I don't pay much attention to the economy. Heck I am not fore sure what america has either). I just dislike the idea that if you don't got it, our left to rot out there and that's no way to treat people. Especially for countries are are considered the richest. Places in Europe have good economies yet they have universal health care etc etc. 

I just don't see that in this eletection being addressed except from Sanders and Trump - heck Trump wants the rich to be taxed more and I agree. 

This is the most scary thing about living in America, personally - I had always wanted to until I realised I could bankrupt myself due to medical bills quite easily. The vehemence America has towards a national health service is also baffling, following the hubbub around the Obamacare act was quite an eye opener. I, for one, was surprised to know that the UK had government run death camps! And to think my experiences with the NHS had been nothing but pleasant, when I was a mere bureaucracy away from certain death!

[shdowhunt60]

3 minutes ago, Sonikku Mikyeong said:

He's more a socialist in my opinion. Nowhere neat a fascist. 

Trump is highly protectionist, so I have no idea how he's a socialist. Unless we're talking about in the ironic sense of how socialists policies end up propping up corporations.

[Nepenthe]

2 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Actually it's more that I don't care. The GOP has little to no power, and they lack the teeth or the wit to do anything. If it's racists I'm afraid of, it's the democrats.

You clearly do care considering you had an issue with me arguing this same thing last night ( as well as in the past) and asked for proof of racist statements from Trump on top of that.

[shdowhunt60]

1 minute ago, Hyp3hat said:

This is the most scary thing about living in America, personally - I had always wanted to until I realised I could bankrupt myself due to medical bills quite easily. The vehemence America has towards a national health service is also baffling, following the hubbub around the Obamacare act was quite an eye opener. I, for one, was surprised to know that the UK had government run death camps! And to think my experiences with the NHS had been nothing but pleasant, when I was a mere bureaucracy away from certain death!

Our vehemence towards national health care isn't unfounded. Have you actually tried getting medical care in any of these countries with socialized healthcare? Like in Canada or the UK? The service is awful and you can wait for hours just waiting for the cues. That's what happens when the medical system is heavily unionized and their jobs are basically guaranteed: good doctors fuck off, and all your left is a bunch of mediocrity.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

4 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Trump is highly protectionist, so I have no idea how he's a socialist. Unless we're talking about in the ironic sense of how socialists policies end up propping up corporations.

Him saying in a debate how the rich needed to be taxed more is more a socialist thing, even the other candidates got upset with him for that and called it socialism. Taxing the highest  % higher taxes goes against capitalist statements.... actually higher taxes on anyone isn't a capitalist thing at all. 

[shdowhunt60]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You clearly do care considering you had an issue with me arguing this same thing last night ( as well as in the past) and asked for proof of racist statements from Trump on top of that.

I actually missed that, but all you proved there was that Trump is a slimeball and tacky as hell, which given the competition isn't something I see particularly outstanding.  I don't see him actually DOING anything that's racist.

You want to know why it is that Trump is getting so much support? It's really quite simple. You guys are so keen on calling him a racist, even to the hilarious extent of spreading misinformation, and he does not care. Being called a racist has no meaning to him. Guys like you keep using racism as a tool to bludgeon and shut people up, and they're tired of it. That doesn't work with Trump.

Are there ACTUAL racists that support Trump? Absolutely. But there are also racists that support the establishment GOP and Democrats. They're just better at hiding it.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

To be honest, I don't think Trump is a racist. I do think he's trying too hard to be edgy and appeal to the loudmouthed minority though which is what I do not like about him.

[Nepenthe]

57 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I actually missed that, but all you proved there was that Trump is a slimeball and tacky as hell, which given the competition isn't something I see particularly outstanding.  I don't see him actually DOING anything that's racist.

You don't have to actually physically do anything to say racist things.

Quote

You want to know why it is that Trump is getting so much support? It's really quite simple. You guys are so keen on calling him a racist, even to the hilarious extent of spreading misinformation, and he does not care. Being called a racist has no meaning to him. Guys like you keep using racism as a tool to bludgeon and shut people up, and they're tired of it. That doesn't work with Trump.

On the contrary, minorities call the GOP and American culture racist because it continues to either deliberately or systemically perpetuate racist outcomes for ethnic minorities even when differences and variables between the demographics of individuals are taken into account. If people are in denial about this or personally offended over the use of the word "racist" because it ironically hurts their feelings to the point that they they don't want to engage in the issues that have plagued this country since before its inception, and they want to take people calling out the existence of these issues as being told to "shut up," then that's their problem they need to sort out. But it doesn't make the reality of what it means to be a non-white person in America any less true. It also doesn't matter to the prevalence of these issues that Trump is reveling in it, beyond the fact that he's simply emboldening a lot of these people to be more outwardly vocal about their shitty beliefs.

Quote

Are there ACTUAL racists that support Trump? Absolutely. But there are also racists that support the establishment GOP and Democrats. They're just better at hiding it.

Stop deflecting everything onto Dems and establishment Republicans for once, especially since it's not even the argument I'm making. No one remotely aware of how racism works actually thinks the Democrats are free of people with prejudiced tendencies or even actual conscious racists. People are instead arguing that there's only one candidate in the race right now actively stroking the nipples of those who think everyone with Latin American features is an illegal immigrant or that Muslims need to be surveilled anymore than white males and right-wing nationalists. People are also arguing that this candidate is running on the Republican ticket because the party has a decades' long history of basically passing policies and advocating measures that align the most with what he's saying already.

[Tani Coyote]

7 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Not a false assertion to say modern GOP has been actively courting racist whites since the 60s and 70s and Trump has jumped on the xenophobic fears of this branch of party regardless whether or not he actually believes it. Your personal ignorance of political positions and what politicians have been saying and advocating for through speech and policy isn't a rebuttal.

Allow me to back this up a little bit more with a crash course in history for those who are unaware.

1930s. Awful time in the USA. FDR gets elected on all these big promises. Oh crap, how's he going to carry them out?

By building one of the most awesome political coalitions ever seen, combining northern, southern and western elites in a way that modern politicans can only envy. How does he do this? Quite simple. He tells more than a few racist politicians - particularly ones from the South - that he won't fight them eliminating non-whites from his government programs. All they have to do is be careful about it and instead of saying "no blacks," they just exclude occupations like farm labor and domestic servants from government benefits. Voila, racialized New Deal.

We see the same thing after the War with the GI Bill. The language allows for state management of benefits... and as anyone who knows history knows, "states' rights" is pretty much another way of saying "I don't like non-whites so I want to discriminate against them without federal interference." The GI Bill is racialized too. Then you have the Federal Housing Administration drawing up "residential security maps" that downgrade neighborhoods the darker they get in skin complexion; they require all banks to use these maps in order to receive federal funding. Pretty much any financial institution that wasn't engaging in redlining was forced to by the state.

Then along comes Lyndon B. Johnson after several decades of economic prosperity (that was largely monopolized by whites). Johnson came from a humble background. He had deep religious beliefs that made him believe he should take care of the poor. He felt the reason he survived a heart attack was precisely so he could do something great for the United States and mankind. That great thing?

The Civil Rights Act. In its aftermath, Johnson lamented that he probably just surrendered the whole South to the Republican Party. Sure enough, Nixon appealed to racist whites to transform the South from a Democrat stronghold to a Republican one.

This was the 1960s and 1970s. Even if the overt segregationists are gone (though as late as 2000 you had Southern populations supporting miscegenation law by margins of 30-40%), their children and grandchildren have most likely picked up more than a few microaggressive behaviors towards non-whites. The data's all there, furthermore, that white Americans quite frankly do not trust large amounts of people of color. They'll admit a few into their social circle, but prefer to wall them out.

That's to say nothing about the fact that right-wing economic policy inevitably falls hardest on non-whites. It is objectively racist at best and subjectively racist at worst.

Regarding libertarianism: it sounds great, until you realize there's no such thing as being fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Fiscally conservative policies inherently will worsen the situation of more than a few minority groups in the United States. At the end of the day, starving someone is no different than beating them in terms of causing another harm.

[TailsTellsTales]

I feel sometimes people concentrate on the racist things that Trump says that they ignore his policies which is what people like in his candidacy. Sanders knows that to defeat Trump you have to talk about the policies and not his Trumpiness and if Clinton attacks him on non policy issues it could make him stronger.

I

[Tani Coyote]

2 hours ago, TailsTellsTales said:

I feel sometimes people concentrate on the racist things that Trump says that they ignore his policies which is what people like in his candidacy. Sanders knows that to defeat Trump you have to talk about the policies and not his Trumpiness and if Clinton attacks him on non policy issues it could make him stronger.

I

If you say racist things, you will probably have fairly racist policies.

Sure, there's the idea of setting one's beliefs aside when it comes to governance, as many Christian politicians have done on issues like gay marriage, but Trump doesn't strike me as that kind of guy.

It seems odd to value character the same as policies, but the idea is character can influence policies. Nixon and Bill Clinton both have reputations as liars that mar them, even though the latter is much more warmly remembered.

[Tails spin]

11 hours ago, TailsTellsTales said:

I feel sometimes people concentrate on the racist things that Trump says that they ignore his policies which is what people like in his candidacy. Sanders knows that to defeat Trump you have to talk about the policies and not his Trumpiness and if Clinton attacks him on non policy issues it could make him stronger.

I

Mind telling me what his policies are cuz all I hear is

- it's going to be amazing you won't believe it.

 

[shdowhunt60]

On 5/7/2016 at 7:56 PM, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

1930s. Awful time in the USA. FDR gets elected on all these big promises. Oh crap, how's he going to carry them out?

By building one of the most awesome political coalitions ever seen, combining northern, southern and western elites in a way that modern politicans can only envy. How does he do this? Quite simple. He tells more than a few racist politicians - particularly ones from the South - that he won't fight them eliminating non-whites from his government programs. All they have to do is be careful about it and instead of saying "no blacks," they just exclude occupations like farm labor and domestic servants from government benefits. Voila, racialized New Deal.

Oh please, The New Deal was an unmitigated disaster that served to prolong one of the worst economic downturns that plagued American history. The tax hikes, forced dependency on welfare through raising minimum wage and making workers unemployable, fixed prices which killed the ability to for corporations to be competitive, and ugh... God. The New Deal was awful, and America was only able to recover after World War II when all the excess assets created to fuel the war machine were liquidated to finally allow competition again.

FDR was quite possibly the worst president we ever had. A lot of his social policies, like Social Security, has had disastrous ramifications that plague us to this very day.

[TailsTellsTales]

12 hours ago, Tails spin said:

Mind telling me what his policies are cuz all I hear is

- it's going to be amazing you won't believe it.

 

I know he wants to stop the bad trade deals to prevent more jobs being shipped overseas by greedy corporations and that about it besides the wall he wants to build. Most of the other stuff is what you say above there.

[Tani Coyote]

14 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Oh please, The New Deal was an unmitigated disaster that served to prolong one of the worst economic downturns that plagued American history. The tax hikes, forced dependency on welfare through raising minimum wage and making workers unemployable, fixed prices which killed the ability to for corporations to be competitive, and ugh... God. The New Deal was awful, and America was only able to recover after World War II when all the excess assets created to fuel the war machine were liquidated to finally allow competition again.

FDR was quite possibly the worst president we ever had. A lot of his social policies, like Social Security, has had disastrous ramifications that plague us to this very day.

Austerity measures tended to result in the collapse of governments at best and the establishment of dictatorships at worst in the same time period. It is true that GDP does not return to pre-Depression strength until 1943, two years into the War. However, it's pretty reasonable to assume that in absence of such a program, things would have gotten much worse. We kicked Hoover's ass out for a reason. 

1. Tax hikes. Unwise in a downturn, yes, but there's a fetishism for balanced budgets on the part of a certain political demographic. Sadly these same types continue to argue against tax hikes in an economic boom despite what the vast majority of economists have to say about the issue.

2. Forced dependency on welfare. Citation needed on being rendered unemployable; the data's clear (barring Forbes and Mises, but no surprise there given the demographics they pander to) that a higher minimum wage does not create mass unemployment. I see quite a few people argue the higher minimum wage made the Depression worse, but there's a key detail: like all New Deal policies, occupations that were minority-heavy like farm labor were excluded. Farming composed the livelihoods of 25% of the population, so you can see why the lack of a minimum wage for a lot of them (i.e. no money to buy anything) would cause problems. Of course the minimum wage in the 1930s isn't going to help things, because a huge chunk of the population was excluded by design! A complete contrast to the broader minimum wage laws we have today that don't show any signs of negative impact at all.

The idea of welfare dependency is also complete bull, because prior to welfare reform (i.e. when there was virtually no incentive to get off welfare as it paid for pretty much everything), most people were off welfare within 5 years. There was never widespread welfare dependency and abuse, and in fact welfare doesn't become a hot button issue until a huge number of black people (no longer effectively barred courtesy of LBJ) sign up for it. Hence this hilarious idea that welfare is a "black" thing, even though there's just as many white recipients today and historically the vast majority were white.

3. Fixed prices. Not entirely unjust given certain sectors like agriculture experienced market failure. If the contemporary financial sector's stupidity didn't run it home already, the New Deal era's events established a key point: the free market can't be allowed to be completely free. It's irresponsible to argue otherwise.

4. World War II. America recovers during World War II, as a result of massive government spending pulling huge numbers of people into the workforce. After the War, the GI Bill and the fact Europe is a steaming hellhole combine to create a solid middle class and well-paid blue collar workers.

Either way, this is missing the original point. The modern Republican Party has a hard time shaking racism because racism is the sole reason it is relevant in modern American politics. Outside the Presidency, the GOP was at the mercy of the Democrats from the 1930s to the 70s and 80s. Black Americans didn't just coincidentally mass evacuate from the GOP (which you will remember had historically been more liberal on race, dating back to its origins in abolitionism) at the same time period; they understood quite clearly which Party would better serve their desire to be seen as human beings.

[shdowhunt60]

1 minute ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

Either way, this is missing the original point. The modern Republican Party has a hard time shaking racism because racism is the sole reason it is relevant in modern American politics. Outside the Presidency, the GOP was at the mercy of the Democrats from the 1930s to the 70s and 80s.

You're aware of what you're implying then, aren't you? That the whole Republican party is racist? I mean, do you have ANY idea of how absurd that sounds?

[Hyp3hat]

14 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Oh please, The New Deal was an unmitigated disaster that served to prolong one of the worst economic downturns that plagued American history. The tax hikes, forced dependency on welfare through raising minimum wage and making workers unemployable, fixed prices which killed the ability to for corporations to be competitive, and ugh... God. The New Deal was awful, and America was only able to recover after World War II when all the excess assets created to fuel the war machine were liquidated to finally allow competition again.

FDR was quite possibly the worst president we ever had. A lot of his social policies, like Social Security, has had disastrous ramifications that plague us to this very day.

Gee, if only we knew why the Great Depression happened... I mean, it would be so helpful if we could find a systemic trend in American economics that caused this. What if there was an exact date that we could pinpoint where everything went wrong with this particular model... Hmmm.... it's a mystery alright.