Why did Rouge become so mean?

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, RJDodger said:

Around the time Shadow became discount Vegeta, Knuckles became dumb, Tails became Inventor Mary Sue

Oh, the Adventure games, you mean?

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm kinda iffy on the Tails thing. I mean, his crafting skills did start getting kind of OP (Especially with the Tornado 2 being able to change into the Cyclone Mech in Adventure 2), but if I recall correctly I don't think his character started to revolve almost completely around inventing until after Sonic 06 caused the era of Sonic being almost always the only player character.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Blazey Firekitty
Minor grammar typo

[Diogenes]

By SA2, Tails had:

• Repaired and upgraded the original Tornado in the span of however long it took Sonic to get through Wing Fortress Zone
• Invented a chaos energy radar (Sonic 3's Japanese manual)
• Built a plane powered by a chaos emerald
• Built a transforming plane
• Built a plane that can transform into a walker mech
• Created a fake but functional chaos emerald

And that's just the obviously-canon games; Fighters had him build a spaceship and Tails Adventure had his remote controlled robot, the Sea Fox and its various upgrades, and several other gadgets. And it's not as if it stopped between SA2 and Unleashed either.

So yeah, Tails has pretty much always been a turbonerd pulling crazy inventions out of his ass, whether he's been playable or not.

[blade57331]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Oh, the Adventure games, you mean?

Knuckles wasn't idiot there, thought.

Also as someone who doesn't know much about Vegeta I must ask. Was Shadow really personality-wise as him in Adventure 2?

[Blazey Firekitty]

53 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

By SA2, Tails had:

• Repaired and upgraded the original Tornado in the span of however long it took Sonic to get through Wing Fortress Zone
• Invented a chaos energy radar (Sonic 3's Japanese manual)
• Built a plane powered by a chaos emerald
• Built a transforming plane
• Built a plane that can transform into a walker mech
• Created a fake but functional chaos emerald

And that's just the obviously-canon games; Fighters had him build a spaceship and Tails Adventure had his remote controlled robot, the Sea Fox and its various upgrades, and several other gadgets. And it's not as if it stopped between SA2 and Unleashed either.

So yeah, Tails has pretty much always been a turbonerd pulling crazy inventions out of his ass, whether he's been playable or not.

Oh no argument there, good points all around, it's just that back then he seemed like more of an athlete, too.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

Knuckles wasn't idiot there, thought.

SA had Knuckles get tricked by Eggman into fighting Sonic a second time, and SA2 had him break his own emerald and nearly kill everyone fighting over space shuttle controls. Knuckles has always been the "brawn over brains" type.

4 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

Also as someone who doesn't know much about Vegeta I must ask. Was Shadow really personality-wise as him in Adventure 2?

Grumpy dude with a big ego gets shown up by his more upbeat same-species rival, starts out evil but eventually turns good, yeah, he's pretty Vegeta-y. Not as much as Silver is Trunks, but I think it's in there.

3 minutes ago, Blazey Firekitty said:

Oh no argument there, good points all around, it's just that back then he seemed like more of an athlete, too.

"Athlete" isn't really a word I'd use to describe Tails at any point in the series. I mean, yeah, he contributed more physically when he was regularly playable, but I feel that's entirely because of the shift in how the series uses characters in gameplay rather than a change to his actual characterization. He started out mimicking Sonic but could never quite keep up, then in SA he learned it's better for him to nurture his own strengths rather than copy Sonic's, and that's pretty much where he is now; he could still bop some robots if necessary, but there's not much room to show that when he isn't playable.

[Blazey Firekitty]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

"Athlete" isn't really a word I'd use to describe Tails at any point in the series. I mean, yeah, he contributed more physically when he was regularly playable, but I feel that's entirely because of the shift in how the series uses characters in gameplay rather than a change to his actual characterization. He started out mimicking Sonic but could never quite keep up, then in SA he learned it's better for him to nurture his own strengths rather than copy Sonic's, and that's pretty much where he is now; he could still bop some robots if necessary, but there's not much room to show that when he isn't playable.

Basically gameplay and story segregation? Not being snarky, and apologies if it comes across that way, just curious to see if that's what you mean.

[blade57331]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

SA had Knuckles get tricked by Eggman into fighting Sonic a second time, and SA2 had him break his own emerald and nearly kill everyone fighting over space shuttle controls. Knuckles has always been the "brawn over brains" type.

Grumpy dude with a big ego gets shown up by his more upbeat same-species rival, starts out evil but eventually turns good, yeah, he's pretty Vegeta-y. Not as much as Silver is Trunks, but I think it's in there.

Yeah, but in SA what made Knuckles attack Sonic was misconception of what Sonic had in his hands(in Knuckles story you can see that from Knuckles' perspective it did looked like parts of M.E.) It was his too-quick judging that made him attack Sonic.

In SA2 it was actually smart to break M.E. So it woudn't got in Eggman's hands. And that moment in space shuttle wasn't act of stupidity but him taking his duty as priority over others.

So yeah, I disagree.

About Shadow I don't know. Vegeta(early Vegeta) seems like hothead that is a bit sadism and doesn't respect much his of friends. While everything that Shadow was doing was for a friend.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

Yeah, but in SA what made Knuckles attack Sonic was misconception of what Sonic had in his hands(in Knuckles story you can see that from Knuckles' perspective it did looked like parts of M.E.) It was his too-quick judging that made him attack Sonic.

Let's actually run this through, though: S3&K has already happened, Knuckles has seen that Eggman is a lying shit and that Sonic is a decent guy. Knuckles' goal in SA is restoring the Master Emerald, and while he doesn't know exactly why it broke, he knows that Chaos is involved. So he runs into Eggman, who sics Chaos on him, the monster that Knuckles already knows is involved with the ME shattering. And yet after the fight, even though Eggman dicked him over in 3&K, even though Sonic proved himself an ally in same, and even though Eggman is currently controlling the monster likely responsible for the ME shattering, he thinks Eggman might be telling the truth about Sonic based on nothing but his word.

On top of that, he attacks Sonic because he sees him holding a Chaos Emerald and mistakes it for a shard. Which is the exact same thing that happened with Eggman earlier.

Dude is not smart enough to learn from his mistakes.

4 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

In SA2 it was actually smart to break M.E. So it woudn't got in Eggman's hands.

It was effective enough for the moment but he could've saved himself an awful lot of trouble if he had smashed Eggman instead.

4 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

And that moment in space shuttle wasn't act of stupidity but him taking his duty as priority over others.

In a way that could've gotten everyone killed, including himself. Not smart.

4 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

About Shadow I don't know. Vegeta(early Vegeta) seems like hothead that is a bit sadism and doesn't respect much his of friends. While everything that Shadow was doing was for a friend.

Obviously the characters aren't one-to-one identical but that doesn't mean there aren't significant similarities between the two.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm kind of amused at how character consistency discussion always seems to wrap back to Knuckles for some reason. Not saying it's a bad thing, but it's an interesting pattern.

[Flyinpenguin117]

6 hours ago, Blazey Firekitty said:

I'm kinda iffy on the Tails thing. I mean, his crafting skills did start getting kind of OP (Especially with the Tornado 2 being able to change into the Cyclone Mech in Adventure 2), but if I recall correctly I don't think his character started to revolve almost completely around inventing until after Sonic 06 caused the era of Sonic being almost always the only player character.

I know Tails has always been pretty OP in his building capabilities. When I call him "Inventor Marry Sue," I'm mostly referring to Lost World, with things like "I hacked a supercomputer using laundry detergent and a couple toothpicks" and apparently knowing more about Eggman's machines than Eggman himself.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Just now, RJDodger said:

I know Tails has always been pretty OP in his building capabilities. When I call him "Inventor Marry Sue," I'm mostly referring to Lost World, with things like "I hacked a supercomputer using laundry detergent and a couple toothpicks" and apparently knowing more about Eggman's machines than Eggman himself.

Ha, the laundry detergent thing strikes me as especially weird. It kind of implies Tails is a reality warping god who doesn't follow normal physics at all, as if he's becoming less of a mechanic and more of a wizard. XD

[Salamander]

Tails's inventing methods are basically comedic under Pontac and Graff; I wouldn't take the process seriously, just the results.

[Diogenes]

9 hours ago, RJDodger said:

I know Tails has always been pretty OP in his building capabilities. When I call him "Inventor Marry Sue," I'm mostly referring to Lost World, with things like "I hacked a supercomputer using laundry detergent and a couple toothpicks" and apparently knowing more about Eggman's machines than Eggman himself.

You wanna talk about an "inventor Mary Sue", try to figure out when during SA2 Tails was able to make the fake emerald. And if you think he had made it before the game started, figure out why it was designed to explode. That thing came straight out of his ass when the plot needed it. And it's not that he knew more about Eggman's machines than Eggman, but that he was plenty capable of figuring them out, so there was no need to bring Eggman along.

[Meta77]

Yea that fake emerald thing always throws me off.why make it to begin

[Lucid Dream]

In all fairness, a lot of the plane stuff was Tails just adding upgrades to it. I wouldn't call him an inventor Mary Sue in SA2, since the worst he did was just obviously out of plot convenience. 

Really, Tails is the most ridiculous in Sonic Rush Adventure, when he's magically capable of producing a waterbike, a warship, a Submarine, a hovercraft and a giant drill in the span of a few days. None of this was even comedic, he literally just goes all out. I wouldn't be surprised if he made an egg carrier in a week. He gets so many compliments by Sonic and Blaze as well... 

[Salamander]

If Tails was working on those vehicles all the time we were gathering materials for him, he'd have had ages to get them done.

[Hyp3hat]

I do like the idea that Rush Adventure takes place over months and years because Tails is building things like a battleship in real time, though. 'Sure Sonic, you got the materials, and I got blueprints, but this thing is going to take at least 6 months to build by hand, and thats if these weirdo koalas are going to help out. Go race that weird shark guy, i guess'

[Meta77]

But the game did not occur over months tails is just some tech God seriously even since the old days via manuals he was a god.

[blade57331]

15 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Let's actually run this through, though: S3&K has already happened, Knuckles has seen that Eggman is a lying shit and that Sonic is a decent guy. Knuckles' goal in SA is restoring the Master Emerald, and while he doesn't know exactly why it broke, he knows that Chaos is involved. So he runs into Eggman, who sics Chaos on him, the monster that Knuckles already knows is involved with the ME shattering. And yet after the fight, even though Eggman dicked him over in 3&K, even though Sonic proved himself an ally in same, and even though Eggman is currently controlling the monster likely responsible for the ME shattering, he thinks Eggman might be telling the truth about Sonic based on nothing but his word.

On top of that, he attacks Sonic because he sees him holding a Chaos Emerald and mistakes it for a shard. Which is the exact same thing that happened with Eggman earlier.

Dude is not smart enough to learn from his mistakes.

Well, If anything, Sonic holding that emerald was much more similar to M.E.' parts from Knux's perspective, which make it more believable. While in Eggman's case it was just shiny thing. But I see your point.

15 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It was effective enough for the moment but he could've saved himself an awful lot of trouble if he had smashed Eggman instead.

Not really. Last time he jumped at Eggman he got taser in the face (S3&K). Which would imply he learned from the last time.

15 hours ago, Diogenes said:

In a way that could've gotten everyone killed, including himself. Not smart.

But he didn't. He got on a ark. It wasn't smart but it wasn't dumb either. It was more just, jerk move.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, blade57331 said:

Not really. Last time he jumped at Eggman he got taser in the face (S3&K). Which would imply he learned from the last time.

Because he just hung there for a minute instead of doing anything.

1 minute ago, blade57331 said:

But he didn't. He got on a ark. It wasn't smart but it wasn't dumb either. It was more just, jerk move.

Doing something stupid and surviving doesn't mean the thing wasn't stupid to start with.

[Lucid Dream]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Because he just hung there for a minute instead of doing anything.

What do you want him to do? Yank it out in 3 seconds flat? Eggman had a tight grip on the Emerald, how would Knuckles just yank it off? And Knuckles obviously wouldn't climb up his own Emerald the traditional way. 

And really, I don't see why Knuckles wouldn't give Eggman a second chance. He knows nothing about people, and I don't see how Eggman would have a hard time convincing him to give him a second chance. It's pretty easy to influence such naive people. It's not stupid at all, just naive.  

Knuckles actually never trusted Eggman. Don't know why people think this, when it was all obviously a misunderstanding due to Sonic not showing the Chaos Emerald. 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Sniper dreams said:

What do you want him to do? Yank it out in 3 seconds flat? Eggman had a tight grip on the Emerald, how would Knuckles just yank it off?

I dunno, try punching? I know it's a Genesis game with very limited cutscenes but he just hangs there and does nothing. No attempt to pull the emerald loose, no attempt to smash the claw or the eggpod, no attempt to dodge the tasers. We're talking about a guy with super strength here, he should be able to do something about it.

2 minutes ago, Sniper dreams said:

And Knuckles obviously wouldn't climb up his own Emerald the traditional way. 

???

2 minutes ago, Sniper dreams said:

And really, I don't see why Knuckles wouldn't give Eggman a second chance. He knows nothing about people, and I don't see how Eggman would have a hard time convincing him to give him a second chance. It's pretty easy to influence such naive people. It's not stupid at all, just naive.  

Oh come on, you can't spin Knuckles as just naively trusting when he clearly doesn't extend that same trust towards Sonic, an already proven ally. And by any rational measure Eggman had already revealed himself as untrustworthy by the end of S3&K, and what Knuckles sees of him in SA is still shady as all hell. Trusting him at that point goes beyond being merely naive.

[FriendBot]

9 minutes ago, Sniper dreams said:

And really, I don't see why Knuckles wouldn't give Eggman a second chance. He knows nothing about people, and I don't see how Eggman would have a hard time convincing him to give him a second chance. It's pretty easy to influence such naive people. It's not stupid at all, just naive.  

I'm sick of this excuse, really.

There is literally NO REASON Knuckles should trust Eggman in Adventure, at all!

When Knuckles first encountered Eggman, he saw that Chaos (the thing Knuckles assumed destroyed the ME) and Eggman told Chaos to attack Knuckles. And then Eggman "convinced" Knuckles that Sonic is the real bad guy, when it's blatantly obvious that's a load of bullshit.

And as Dio said, it makes no sense that he's willing to trust Eggman who has been proven time and time again that he's the bad guy but won't give Sonic the same treatment even though Sonic has been shown to be the good guy all the time.

This isn't being naive anymore, this is being downright stupid! Not even Boom Knuckles trusts Eggman in the their universe!

It was fine in 3&K since Knuckles has literally no idea who either of them are and Eggman met Knuckles first and took advantage of that. But pulling the same card in Adventure doesn't work at all! Because 3&K is canon so Knuckles should remember that the last he met Eggman, he played him for a fool; electrocuted the fuck out of him and sent his robots to pretty kill him yet you're telling me that it's totally reasonable for Knux to believe Eggman despite all that.

HELL FUCKING NAH!

[Lucid Dream]

35 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I dunno, try punching? I know it's a Genesis game with very limited cutscenes but he just hangs there and does nothing. No attempt to pull the emerald loose, no attempt to smash the claw or the eggpod, no attempt to dodge the tasers. We're talking about a guy with super strength here, he should be able to do something about it

Oh come on, you can't spin Knuckles as just naively trusting when he clearly doesn't extend that same trust towards Sonic, an already proven ally. And by any rational measure Eggman had already revealed himself as untrustworthy by the end of S3&K, and what Knuckles sees of him in SA is still shady as all hell. Trusting him at that point goes beyond being merely naive.

You expect him to destroy both claws so quickly? Not possible. He can't pull it loose because it's already secured and he has no foothold to help him. How do you expect him to get to the eggpod as well? He can't try to climb up M.E the way he normally does (the traditional way), or he'd break it. He just jumped on the M.E and probably tried to figure out how to get it back without destroying it, since it's not exactly an easy puzzle. 

Rewatching the scene, Knuckles never even really gave Eggman trust either. He didn't trust anyone at all really. He assumed Eggman had the Master Emerald shards and went to attack him, and only stopped because he saw the silver Chaos emerald. Then Eggman just said 'Oh, Sonic's after the M.E. shard, go figure it out yourself'. 

And since Sonic looked like he had the M.E and was reluctant to show it or give it to Knuckles, why wouldn't Knuckles fight Sonic? The first punch was just knuckles showing Sonic he was going to fight to get back what was rightfully his, and Sonic refused to give it back. 

Eggman is actually pretty unimportant. He never really tricked Knuckles into fighting Sonic, more like gave him the idea that Sonic might be collecting the M.E. shards, which there seemed to be proof of. No trickery, just a misunderstanding.