What was the problem with Heroes?

[Sean]

I like my Sonic characters like I like my men: silent and obedient!

...The latter which kinda is a problem in Heroes because the controls aren't the most responsive.

The characters' constant babbling was one of my worst problems with the game. I don't think it would have been so bad if they had been making snarky, sarcastic, or generally humorous comments along the way to keep me entertained... but uh, this is Sonic we're talking about, so I guess I'm expecting too much out of Sega when I want witty dialogue for a change.

At the very least, they could have kept them only in story mode...

[SuperStingray]

Yeah having to complete the game four freaking times was overkill. It was nothing new in the series though, SA had you playing with Sonic,Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Gamma and worst of all BIG. SA2 had only two teams but the traditional Sonic gameplay was diluted with the indulgence of 2/3's of the game being composed of alternative game-play styles. I don't why fans often forget this...

What do you mean "nothing new?" Forget what? Heroes and the Adventure titles don't have that in common at all. You only had to play through each Adventure game once for each character. In Heroes, you play through the game four times with what may as well be the same three characters.

[jonathan]

Superstingray I was addressing Legendary Emerald and others who often make claims along the lines, "that you had to complete the game four times before you could access the final level" [quote from Legendary Emerald, I don't know how to quote properly ]

I assume we were useing the word complete if different ways, I in the sense of achieving an ending, you in the sense of completing it with vasts amounts of similarity (Same levels, near identical gamplay among teams).Yes in fact you did have to complete the game four times, not SIX like in SA1.

By nothing new I meant that since SA multiple stories had to be completed to unlock the "true" ending.Whether or not the gameplay was virtually identical was irrelevant to my point/criticism.

Now that you raise the issue about the gameplay being so similar, I concur it was, although the Chaotix gameplay style was a sort of fusion with Knuckles gameplay style. Heroes JUST LIKE SA2 "what may as well be the same three characters" (quote from SuperStingray). One advantage SA2 had over heroes however was different levels. Sega could have at lest arranged the levels differently for different teams. The lack of level differentiation for the teams was indeed a minus for the game.

I will say this, I would rather play the generally speedy levels of Sonic Heroes over again with the same levels with slight modifications then play the complete alien, speed deprived sections of SA. Big the cat, Amy and mechs completely defeated the purpose of speedy platforming to me. Although Heroes is at times slowed down by the teamwork aspect of the game, it is still collectively alot faster paced than Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are from a collective standpoint.

[Semi-colon e]

It's even more embarrassing than Shadow to play, because the characters don't shut up (while this is true in either game, Heroes is slightly more cringeworthy). People say Shadow is broken, but at least his controls are relatively tight, though the levels in that are even more thin but nonetheless better length and generally better designed.

Heroes isn't bad imo, but it's not great and Team Sonic is the only team with any sort of decent flow. Mystic Mansion was pretty awesome and Grand Metropolis is better still, but it just got much more linear and inconsistent towards the end for the most part. It's like they put most effort into the first levels. Seems to be a common thing in Sonic games, earlier levels or even the very first one being one of the best as you can just have fun without worrying about dying all the time e_e

I also hated how all the characters played almost entirely the same. The music was quite good, but not as good as Adventure/06/Unleashed/hell most of the games.

[Tornado]

Yeah having to complete the game four freaking times was overkill. It was nothing new in the series though, SA had you playing with Sonic,Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Gamma and worst of all BIG. SA2 had only two teams but the traditional Sonic gameplay was diluted with the indulgence of 2/3's of the game being composed of alternative game-play styles. I don't why fans often forget this...

The difference was that playing the same game multiple times in those games resulted in completely different gameplay styles. In Heroes it was the exact same game with the exact same problems 3.5 times. Whether or not Heroes was better because of it is up to interpretation, but it was an extremely cheap way to add longevity regardless.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Tornado

[Badnik Zero]

SA2 had the most variety, since each level was a unique one even when they shared a similar theme (Mad Space, Meteor Herd). And since the treasure stages were on foot, it wasn't such a radical change of gameplay. Heroes is more like playing the Advance games through with each available character. Levels and movesets barely change.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Stretchy Werewolf

[jonathan]

"People say Shadow is broken, but at least his controls are relatively tight, though the levels in that are even more thin but nonetheless better length and generally better designed." -Semi-colon

From my experience shadow is much more slipper than Heroes.

"The difference was that playing the same game multiple times in those games resulted in completely different gameplay styles. In Heroes it was the exact same game with the exact same problems 3.5 times. Whether or not Heroes was better because of it is up to interpretation, but it was an extremely cheap way to add longevity regardless." -Tornado

Indeed, it really does boil down to opinion. Mine follows:

Yeah it was a cheap way to extended the games final story, I just see Heroes levels which are virtually the speed levels from SA1 and 2 albeit slowed down a bit by the teamwork gimmick as superior than being forced to play admittedly different yet slower, nontraditional Sonic gameplay styles. If I recall Shadow only has a sparse four levels in SA2 while Eggman and Rouge both have five. On a better note Sonic has six levels while Knuckles has five and Tails have five. In total only 33% of SA2's levels are speed levels and unlike the levels in Heroes which are lengthy, SA2's are very short and are even shorter in comparison to the treasure hunting and Shooting levels (see Metal harbor for extreme case). I believe that the core traditional Sonic gameplay which composed a mere fraction of the Adventure games being usurped and outweighed by slower, more time-consuming, typically boring gameplay styles is just as much a way of artificially extending a Sonic game as Heroes.Unleashed is a testament to Sega's continuance of this cheap way of extending Sonic games; if future Sonic games are to be blamed (and rightly so) for their bogus ways of extending Sonic games, SA deserves the most blame, the game which started this trend.I remember reading about how somebody from IGN asked SEGA why they have extra gameplay styles and how a SEGA spokesperson said that a pure Sonic game would be to long to create. Its a shame it really is.

I just wanna state that my favorite 3-D Sonic game is as a matter of fact Sonic Adventure 2; gameplay-wise its not on par with Heroes but the music, plot, 2-Player mode, City escape, Crazy Gadget and nostalgia make for a more enjoyable experience.

[Octarine]

It’s odd; I’m not really sure why I dislike Heroes as much as I do. I love its style and its environments, I love that it brought back the Chaotix (overcrowded cast be damned), I love that it was mostly speed-oriented, I didn’t have much of a problem with the repetition... and yet I still prefer even Shadow to it, even though that’s definitely a worse game.

I think it's mostly those damned health bars and the combat in general. As much as the platforming emphasized speed, it slowed to a crawl whenever enemies appeared, and I dreaded seeing those gigantic hammer-wielding buggers. That was when the slippery controls were the worst, too: any prolonged combat as often as not sent me flying off the edge of the stage. Say what you will about Shadow, but at least the enemies died pretty quickly, even the bigger ones. Also, this was the game where collision damage really became a problem. When you're fighting a humongous enemy with erratic controls, the last thing you need is to lose all of your rings when you brush up against it.

I also hated, hated, hated the story and the dialogue, and I'm usually pretty lenient. It was trying to be simple like the classic games, and I appreciate that, but in trying to explain the presence of all four teams, why they were fighting each other and why Shadow was still alive, it really fell apart. Its major twist was given away in the middle of every team's story, Eggman was reduced to a pathetic joke, Amy became a complete psychopath... this has been covered to death, but for the most part it was wretched.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Octarine

[jonathan]

Hey octarine.

Yeah Heroes did have bad collision detection and the game was rather slippery but even more so with certain characters, like Omega. The health bars, meh, I thought they were alright. I thought it made the differences between Sonic and Knuckles more apparent, Sonic is faster but Knuckles is stronger.The bigger enemies involved more strategy to defeat which was a plus. The last couple of levels however is when they became a nuisance.I really didn't like how you would often times fight a huge robot over a bottomless pit,grrr i would get PISSED because I would always get knocked off.

Again, from my experience, Shadow The Hedgehog was far more slippery to the point where you couldn't even really hold him remotely steady, you couldn't really aim the guns and the graphics just seemed... I don't know, downgraded...perhaps is how I could describe them.

Heroes story certainly did have an identity crisis. It started off simple with the whole letter bit then come to find out Eggmans NOT really Eggman, it's Metal Sonic who has a vendetta against sonic and has copied everybodies data and Shadows back and there are a million clones of him, etc. etc. ETC.

Still I thought the story was moderately enjoyable. I liked how Metal Sonic was reintroduced and was developed as a character. Also, even though I didn't like how they brought back Shadow, I thought his quest to understand who he was rather captivating. It just sucked not getting all the answers in this game...

The dialogue was OK. I didn't have as problem with the whole "SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK" line and what not. I just hated the grammar mistakes. I think for the most part the VA's really did well in this game, I applaud them. I was pleasantly surprised to see the lip syncing problems which plagued the Adventures was fixed. Kudos.

[Octarine]

Heroes story certainly did have an identity crisis. It started off simple with the whole letter bit then come to find out Eggmans NOT really Eggman, it's Metal Sonic who has a vendetta against sonic and has copied everybodies data and Shadows back and there are a million clones of him, etc. etc. ETC.

Still I thought the story was moderately enjoyable. I liked how Metal Sonic was reintroduced and was developed as a character. Also, even though I didn't like how they brought back Shadow, I thought his quest to understand who he was rather captivating. It just sucked not getting all the answers in this game...

That was really the biggest problem. It wasn't that the ideas were bad, just that they didn't belong in Heroes. A game that aims to be simple shouldn't also have to introduce a new character, reintroduce and reinvent three classic characters and ressurrect another, never mind the man-behind-the-man twist. Any of those ideas could have been good on their own, and all of them at once might have fit into something with the scope of an Adventure game, but the streamlined nature of Heroes' story just couldn't handle it all.

...I don't hate Heroes so much as I find it vastly unsatisfactory. I do appreciate that it brought back Metal Sonic and the Chaotix, like I said, and the levels are wonderfully bright and colourful (and checkered!). It just turned out okay when it could've been great.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Octarine

[psikeout]

I think Octarine pretty much hit the nail on the head, at least for me. There's so much in the game that really should be good, but it just... isn't satisfying. Sometimes I forget that game is the only reason the Chaotix cast returned, and it's owed some credit for that, if nothing else (even though they haven't done a whole lot of good since then). Well said, +rep, wholehearted agreement here.

[Dark Qiviut]

I remember reading about how somebody from IGN asked SEGA why they have extra gameplay styles and how a SEGA spokesperson said that a pure Sonic game would be to long to create. Its a shame it really is.

Actually, there is a rather good reason for this. The pure Sonic levels in Unleashed would take a long time to create, and it'd cost a LOT of money. Each Sonic level may last only a few minutes to play. Yet, because the day levels are so massive, they take hours, days, and even WEEKS to design, complete, and debug. The game barely fits in the 360 DVD as it is.

And I really don't mind the extra gameplay styles. Sonic games don't have to be stuck to one gameplay style, and I sure hope Sonic Team maintains a different variety of gameplay styles per game in the future.

[Marcello]

I didn't like the graphics in the game. It was nice idea to try to make the level look like the classics, but in my opninion it did'nt work so good. I would have rather had them look like Sonic Adventure (2). Also I hated the shiny models. The story was also too childish. I don't want it too serious and mature but like Sonic Adventure. That had some funny things ( "Hey, look! Its a giant talking egg!"), but felt more mature. The character potrayals were also better in SA. I think since SEGA stopped making consoles, Sonic's gotten worse. I'd be sooo happy if SEGA would bring out a new console, but that isn't going to happen...

[batson]

I loved Sonic Heroes when it first came out, and i still do. On one hand, i can certainly understand the criticism of the game (controls, story, ect) but for some reason, none of these problems bothers me in this game, despite the fact that thing such as bad controls and level design bothers me in certain other Sonic games (such as Shadow and, of course, 06) and so does poor storylines (such as in Unleashed).

I dunno, maybe i didnt get annyyed by its flaws when i first played it back in 2003 because i didnt understand video game design well enough back then to truly be able to tell a well-made game from a poorly-made game, and maybe im not annoyed by its flaws these days because at this point the game has become nostalgic for me

[jonathan]

I think heroes had quite a bit of good in it: Music, overall gameplay, Level themes, voice acting,beautiful frame rate, return of Chaotix and Metal Sonic. It also fixed things in previous Sonic games like lip syncing, cut scenes are smoother, more speed levels (although team "gimmick" incorporated) and removal of sub-par game play styles.

Heroes story was more childish but nothing beyond the kid-targeted franchise. Unleashed and Heroes really resemble each other to me in this respect.