Classic and Modern - More than just a Stylistic Choice

[Nepenthe]

3 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Yes it is, because those games are simply sets of "sagas", like a two-parter special of a cartoon. Even Mario has this, it's nothing to say the franchise has some sort of big lore

These sagas still connect with one another. Only Unleashed, about three quarters into the series' lifespan, deliberately decides to not continue from any past events, and even then this doesn't actually serve to contradict previous canon.

3 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

And you failed to do that because like I demonstrated, there isn't a solid enough lore for lore to be a compelling argument for why Classic Sonic shouldn't have a little series of his own.

You haven't actually demonstrated this. You've just been disagreeing by pointing out arbitrary differences within the games without actually making a larger point of how these differences refute narrative, which I've already equated to disproving canon by way of a character's looks in any given franchise that goes on for a long time.

Furthermore, my argument about Classic Sonic having a series or not has nothing to do with lore because I don't believe making more Classic titles inherently splits canon anyway. My problem is strictly that it's not beneficial from a financial or even an artistic perspective.

3 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Look at any reaction to Sonic Generations' reveal trailer. People were hyped for Classic Sonic and the nostalgic nature of the game.

Look at how excited people were for Rayman Origins or Bayonetta 2 or Epic Mickey or any other game in the universe that has a lot of hype despite niche interest. Excitement =/= high sales.

3 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

I highly doubt Taxman could make Mania how it is now without SEGA specifically choosing to enlist him and funding the project and putting it up for sale so he gets some monetary gain out of it. And Taxman wouldn't make a Classic-styled game with Modern because he knows that Classic Sonic is important to the identity of that gameplay.

Taxman is not necessary to make a good Classic game because he is certainly not the only individual on Earth to be able to do what Mania is doing. Furthermore, Classic Sonic's look matters not to the function of the gameplay considering he plays far worse in Gens in terms of being a classic-playing character than Modern Sonic did in Sonic N-Gage.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

Ironically, I find it very easy to argue that Gens isn't canon because bad application of time travel rules either means Sonic's past self now lives in a split timeline- which might have ugly ramifications on 2017- or that we have two Shadows running around our present universe, and it's not good juju either way.

Eh, this franchise has never used time travel particularly logically.

Sonic CD plays fast and loose with the concept of time travel, doing things that honestly don't make a lot sense causally (destroying the Badnik-making machine in the past stops the robots from being there in the future, but not in the present). And let's not even get started on 2K6's time-travel shenanigans.

You kinda just have to ignore the plotholes sometimes.

[ChikoLad]

18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

These sagas still connect with one another. Only Unleashed, about three quarters into the series' lifespan, deliberately decides to not continue from any past events, and even then this doesn't actually serve to contradict previous canon.

You didn't read my Eggman Nega example, did you? And there's plenty more inconsistencies too.

This has been going on long enough. Sonic lore just really isn't that important in any way, all that's important is that the individual game's stories. There's too many problems with the lore for it to matter. I'm kinda tired of discussing it.

18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You haven't actually demonstrated this. You've just been disagreeing by pointing out arbitrary differences within the games without actually making a larger point of how these differences refute narrative, which I've already equated to disproving canon by way of a character's looks in any given franchise that goes on for a long time.

They're not arbitrary differences, they are fundamental.

Eggman Nega's backstories in Rush and Rivals are completely different.

The locations of past games can't all feasibly exist in a game like Unleashed.

Lost Hex comes out of bloody nowhere and is given no elaboration.

Sonic Team just don't care about the overarching lore of the franchise.

18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Look at how excited people were for Rayman Origins or Bayonetta 2 or Epic Mickey or any other game in the universe that has a lot of hype despite niche interest. Excitement =/= high sales.

Those are also all much more niche franchises (Mickey Mouse is niche in the context of video games).

Sonic Generations sold well enough, broke pre-order records, and it was the very game that brought back Classic Sonic after people had been demanding for him to come back. I'm pretty sure that was the thing people were most excited for. I even personally know many people who normally don't touch Sonic, get it for Classic Sonic. And I see so many other Sonic fans say the same. I think you are really grasping at straws to claim Classic Sonic didn't factor into Generations breaking pre-order records or it's sales.

18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Taxman is not necessary to make a good Classic game because he is certainly not the only individual on Earth to be able to do what Mania is doing. Furthermore, Classic Sonic's look matters not to the function of the gameplay considering he plays far worse in Gens in terms of being a classic-playing character than Modern Sonic did in Sonic N-Gage.

I know that, that's why I said "Taxman and co.", because there's more than one person working on the game, like Stealth, and ex-Sonic 2 HD developers, and composer Tee Lopes. These people all have a history together, so I think they are the only team that could have feasibly come together for something like this and I can't think of another existing team that can achieve what the Classics did. Sonic Advance had a different feel to it, especially it's sequels, so it's not a good comparison.

And Classic Sonic is not important to the gameplay, but he is important to the game's image. Classic Sonic is associated with that Classic gameplay, so it makes sense to use him for it. I don't see why that's hard to understand. Gameplay isn't the only thing people refer to when they say "Classic Sonic styled game".

[Nepenthe]

Literally no one is saying that people weren't excited for Sonic Generations on the basis of Classic Sonic. I'm saying it didn't sell well enough on any one platform to actually justify saying that splitting the franchise into styles will lead to a notable increase sales as your original argument claimed. Hype literally does not matter; numbers do, and the numbers say people cared more about Sonic on Dreamcast and when he first went multiplatform than they have any one version of Sonic in today's climate, thus the financial benefit of this isn't adequately supported by anything you've brought to the table. The only unarguable thing we're getting out of this is goodwill and trust earned back, but that isn't a goal that's exclusive to Classic Sonic's presence anyway. So again, why is he here???

Basically, we don't need three different designs running around with their own mutually-exclusive gameplay styles to help the franchise reattain more trust and potentially gain more sales, especially since it has at most not made an actual considerable difference and at worst been a case of several steps back.

[TCB]

The way I see it, Mania and Project Sonic 2017 have their own different choices due to the marketing for each one rather than trying to split the continuity in two. Like,if SEGA wants to actually do this then that's just bizarre, even for them. The former is handled by a team that SEGA and Sonic Team trusted to bring back that classic 2D platformer mechanics of the classics and revitalize it because apparently they can't do it themselves anymore. The latter is the next hit Sonic Team title that was expected to get for fans of that side of the coin. Actually splitting the already wobbly continuity more can very well alienate the fanbase even further. Basically having a split in gameplay style for marketing purposes from this point on isn't the problem from my viewpoint, is how to apply it well,which Mario and Zelda done. 

By the way I never saw Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic two separate different entities and always thought it was silly to think so. If certain fans want to think so due their own perception and pinpoint expectations not being reached then hey that's on them. Like I said with Mania at least they have a game marketed toward them to enjoy. 

 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

8 hours ago, Lady Knuxchao said:

I personally find the old gameplay boring as sticks but I don't see why Modern Sonic couldn't emulate the classic gameplay in 3D.

I don't know, I think she's kinda fun to have around sometimes.

6 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

.Dunno what you're talking about since he got into Smash Bros, just had a new release this year that came with a Gold amiibo, is getting a new TV show, and is rumoured to get a new game with said TV show. There's also the Archie Comics, which are ongoing (including crossovers with Sonic!). And there's been plenty of cool Mega Man merchandise as of late.

 

The Archie comics which are currently on hiatus/cancelled?

4 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

If you want to go further, since Generations practically threw 06 back into the canon, despite being non-canon by the end of the game, and on top of that, all of the other games that show Shadow as a agent of G.U.N, Shadow is the only game that provides an explanation as to why, after Shadow proved himself a hero by saving the world in Shadow, and decided he was putting his past behind him, he decided to join up with G.U.N after proving that he wasn't a threat to the G.U.N commander. 

Sonic 06 wasn't ever really non-canon, though. That's like saying Biff Tannen's Pleasure Paradise Casino & Hotel wasn't canon because Marty managed to steal the sports almanac back. Canon is more of a meta concept that doesn't apply in world; by the end of Sonic 06, 99% of Sonic 06 no longer happened in their timeline (Generations shenanigans notwithstanding, because time travel-- go figure), but Sonic 06 is still a part of the series' canon.

I mean, if nothing else happened, Sonic at least buzzed by Soleanna and gave Elise a funny feeling. That was never written out that I've seen.

4 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

It kind of is, because Westopolis was shown to have a specific location on that map. If you assume Shadow is canon to Unleashed, there is no reason why the world should be completely different all of a sudden, especially since that would mean Westopolis would suddenly be in a different location in relation to everything else.

That's one of the things that makes me opt to view Sonic games as their own thing unless they have explicit ties to each other.

What if Sonic Team was working with-- bear with me on this-- the idea that there were two worlds?

That would explain two different world maps, maybe.

[ChikoLad]

Just now, KingScoopaKoopa said:

The Archie comics which are currently on hiatus/cancelled?

They still happened quite recently. And there's a bunch of other Mega Man things happening. Saying the franchise is dead just sounds like fan entitlement because "it's not exactly what I want from it". It's still putting out products, and it still has a presence. I've seen people getting excited for Mega Man products over the past year. That's not a dead franchise. Was Sonic dead for the past two years, just because he was only putting out bad games and comics and a TV show and some toys? Are good, core games a requirement for a living franchise, and every other product is irrelevant?

2 minutes ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

What if Sonic Team was working with-- bear with me on this-- the idea that there were two worlds?

That would explain two different world maps, maybe.

Sonic does have two worlds - "Sonic's world" (mostly for the Classics) and Earth (mostly for Modern).

The problem is that the one in Shadow and the one in Unleashed are both referred to as Earth. And they have a completely different layout. There is no in-universe explanation for that. So it's a plothole in the "ongoing epic chronology of Sonic the Hedgehog".

[Dr. Mechano]

2 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

Sonic does have two worlds - "Sonic's world" (mostly for the Classics) and Earth (mostly for Modern).

Sonic's world is Earth. In Japan, it always has been. It's a funky, cartoonish, ridiculous Earth, but it's Earth.

Again, I remind you. These locations are from modern games:

 

And of course, the classic games occasionally had fairly normal, down-to-earth locations. Like:

Modern cities

 

Fairly ordinary jungles

 

 

My point here is that both the classic and modern games have a veritable mix of somewhat-realistic and totally zany zone aesthetics. Sonic's world has always been an incredibly diverse place, with locations that could feasibly exist on Earth and others that absolutely could not. But it's always been the same world, and the jump to Sonic Adventure did not change that.

[ChikoLad]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Sonic's world is Earth. In Japan, it always has been. It's a funky, cartoonish, ridiculous Earth, but it's Earth.

Again, I remind you. These locations are from modern games:

 

And of course, the classic games occasionally had fairly normal, down-to-earth locations. Like:

Modern cities

 

Fairly ordinary jungles

 

 

My point here is that both the classic and modern games have a veritable mix of somewhat-realistic and totally zany zone aesthetics. Sonic's world has always been an incredibly diverse place, with locations that could feasibly exist on Earth and others that absolutely could not. But it's always been the same world, and the jump to Sonic Adventure did not change that.

Except the official, internal Sonic bible distinctly says that "Sonic's World" and Earth are two distinctly different places that Sonic jumps between. Games like Advance and Heroes take place in it, though there is no explanation for how they jump between the two worlds. This is an official internal document that SEGA and collaborating companies have to abide by. Aaron Webber even recently referenced this specific point from it quite recently in an interview. This holds way more water than a region specific manual for the first game. That has been well retconned by now.

EDIT: Apparently there is actually a "gate" of sorts connecting the two worlds.

 

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, ChikoLad said:

Except the official, internal Sonic bible distinctly says that "Sonic's World" and Earth are two distinctly different places that Sonic jumps between. Games like Advance and Heroes take place in it, though there is no explanation for how they jump between the two worlds. This is an official internal document that SEGA and collaborating companies have to abide by. Aaron Webber even recently referenced this specific point from it quite recently in an interview. This holds way more water than a region specific manual for the first game. That has been well retconned by now.

 

The problem is that the actual in-game evidence does not support this.

In Sonic Adventure, Angel Island - a location that debuted in the classic series - falls right next to the modern Earth locations of Station Square and the Mystic Ruins. It didn't fall into another dimension or anything. It just fell straight down. 

Then of course, we have Sonic Battle:

Look at this place. It's a modern, human-populated city with buildings and roads. But it's also got checkered hills and ground, and those classic jagged palm-trees. It's a location that decidedly takes design aesthetics from both sides, which is further support for all the games taking place in a shared world.

 

I almost hate to bring this up, but... well, Shadow the Hedgehog. The game has normal cities like Westopolis, but it also has crazy, over-the-top zones like Circus Park. Again, all in the same world, in the same game.

 

The writer's bible may very well say they're two different worlds, but I'd probably call that an unobserved, unfollowed rule. In the actual games themselves, there's plenty of evidence that this isn't the case.

[ChikoLad]

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

The problem is that the actual in-game evidence does not support this.

In Sonic Adventure, Angel Island - a location that debuted in the classic series - falls right next to the modern Earth locations of Station Square and the Mystic Ruins. It didn't fall into another dimension or anything. It just fell straight down. 

Then of course, we have Sonic Battle:

Look at this place. It's a modern, human-populated city with buildings and roads. But it's also got checkered hills and ground, and those classic jagged palm-trees. It's a location that decidedly takes design aesthetics from both sides, which is further support for all the games taking place in a shared world.

 

I almost hate to bring this up, but... well, Shadow the Hedgehog. The game has normal cities like Westopolis, but it also has crazy, over-the-top zones like Circus Park. Again, all in the same world, in the same game.

 

The writer's bible may very well say they're two different worlds, but I'd probably call that an unobserved, unfollowed rule. In the actual games themselves, there's plenty of evidence that this isn't the case.

You literally can't argue with an internal bible.

It may have contradictions with some games (keep in mind it gets updated over time). But it's still the official bible. It's Word of God. You don't get to argue with it no matter how little sense it makes, and use your arguments of how little sense it makes against people who cite it.

But this is precisely the reason why I don't really care about the overarching lore much. Even after Word of God, things don't really make sense. This is why I don't think lore is a compelling argument against Classic Sonic having his own sub-franchise. This why, if SEGA suddenly came out tomorrow and said "Classic Sonic is Modern Sonic's long lost little brother, not his past self", my reaction would be:

[Sean]

16 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

You literally can't argue with an internal bible.

It may have contradictions with some games (keep in mind it gets updated over time). But it's still the official bible. It's Word of God. You don't get to argue with it no matter how little sense it makes, and use your arguments of how little sense it makes against people who cite it.

You don't get to dictate what we can and can't debate in discussions. This is such a nihilistic, defeatist attitude that doesn't answer anything and actively discourages healthy discussion and analysis of the franchise.

Also, it's funny how you say that we can't argue against Sega's bible when we're not using our own fanon to counter them, but rather evidence present in the games themselves. It's Sega's fucking word against their own. I honestly don't understand your problem and why you are acting like we're crazy for taking issue with the way Sega is handling Sonic's continuity, just because we're not bending over and taking every single word they say as gospel, regardless of whether or not they blatantly contradict themselves.

[Nepenthe]

Arguing that the lore in all of its contradictions is irrefutable fact while previously insisting that there is no lore because Sega doesn't care as obviously proven by said inconsistencies makes absolutely zero sense, and when shit stops making sense I find it best to just steer the topic back to the original point. No more about this, at least in this thread.

[ChikoLad]

29 minutes ago, Sean said:

You don't get to dictate what we can and can't debate in discussions. This is such a nihilistic, defeatist attitude that doesn't answer anything and actively discourages healthy discussion and analysis of the franchise.

Also, it's funny how you say that we can't argue against Sega's bible when we're not using our own fanon to counter them, but rather evidence present in the games themselves. It's Sega's fucking word against their own. I honestly don't understand your problem and why you are acting like we're crazy for taking issue with the way Sega is handling Sonic's continuity, just because we're not bending over and taking every single word they say as gospel, regardless of whether or not they blatantly contradict themselves.

I'm not saying your points aren't interesting or putting them down.

But trying to say your points and theories, however much more sense you or anyone else thinks they make compared to Word of God, can't be used to argue against it. You can say "the official explanation for this doesn't make sense with what we've seen". But you can't outright defy it and say "Word of God is wrong". Otherwise, yes, you are making fanon. Older games and material get retconned all of the time, even if the company doesn't explicitly state it. Just look at the Super Emeralds situation - SEGA simply never used them for years, so naturally, people assumed the concept was on a hiatus. Then Iizuka came out and said "lol nope, that shit was always just a bonus feature for the sake of it". You can use your points to criticise the direction the lore has taken and how it's handled, but you can't outright say "I'm right, and SEGA is wrong about their franchise that they made and hold the internal documents for".

I take issue with the way SEGA handles Sonic's continuity too. It's also the entire reason why I said continuity was a flimsy angle to use for "why Classic Sonic can't have his own sub series" in the first place.

21 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Arguing that the lore in all of its contradictions is irrefutable fact while previously insisting that there is no lore because Sega doesn't care as obviously proven by said inconsistencies makes absolutely zero sense, and when shit stops making sense I find it best to just steer the topic back to the original point. No more about this, at least in this thread.

Except I never insisted there was no lore. Again with the not reading my posts properly.

I said that lore was a poor angle to use as an argument for "Classic Sonic shouldn't have his own sub series". This is my umpteenth time having to repeat this to you people. What's so hard to understand about the difference between that and "Sonic has no lore"?

You might be misinterpreting my statement of "I personally look at each Sonic game as it's own thing unless it's an explicit sequel", but that was not me insisting the franchise has no lore. Some games have no real defined links to each other and at times directly contradict each other. Shadow and Unleashed being the example I brought up. If I try to look at Unleashed's story and lore as "a part of a grander lore that connects to games like Shadow", Unleashed's story is immediately terrible in that context, as it contradicts past games. So I separate Unleashed from a game like Shadow, as the story makes more sense that way - and for all intents and purposes, the game itself DOES detach itself from past games, so it's a valid approach.

And for the record, Aaron Webber actually views the franchise the same way as I do, so it's not like I'm the only one. Essentially, as he says, I do it because "it's easier on my brain". And in my case, it makes certain stories more charming. I'm aware that officially, Shadow and Unleashed are part of the same timeline, but since it's not clearly shown how they fit on this timeline with each other (unlike the Classic series, the two Adventure games, and Colours and Generations), especially since Earth looks different, it's easier on my brain for Unleashed to just be a unique, self-contained story, and I enjoy it's story more from that angle. Viewed as fitting into the larger Sonic lore, Unleashed has a terrible story. But as it's own thing, it's easily one of the best Sonic game stories.

 

[Sean]

Enough. Nepenthe has already said it and this will be your final warning: we're done derailing the thread with this unrelated, and nonsensical argument about what constitutes official lore. Find another appropriate thread, or make one yourself, if you want to continue this line of discussion, but I sure as heck ain't gonna join you.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

7 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

They still happened quite recently. And there's a bunch of other Mega Man things happening. Saying the franchise is dead just sounds like fan entitlement because "it's not exactly what I want from it". It's still putting out products, and it still has a presence. I've seen people getting excited for Mega Man products over the past year. That's not a dead franchise. Was Sonic dead for the past two years, just because he was only putting out bad games and comics and a TV show and some toys? Are good, core games a requirement for a living franchise, and every other product is irrelevant?

Not saying that. I'm just saying that the comic book that no longer runs and whose reprints (Worlds crossovers aside) have been cancelled isn't a great example of the franchise thriving in your argument.

[Mel]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the game series are completely different, but they are very independent beasts. I'd call it engine 'DNA'.

Case in point, Knuckles Chaotix is a bad game. It's badly structured, the level design is a mess, and it is just a bit weird conceptually. However, it plays very similarly to  the Classic games. It has the same DNA as the Classics.

Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog play very similar, because they are using the same DNA. However, Sonic Heroes, despite having the same gameplay concept , plays very differently to Adventure 1 and 2 because the DNA is so radically different. The controls, level design and feel are very different to Adventure.

And this isn't to say all the games are bad. They aren't. I'm actually a defender of Heroes. But I would also say that the games are easy to categorise.

Sonic 1 - Knuckles

Sonic Adventure - Sonic Adventure 2

Sonic Heroes -

Sonic 06

Sonic Colors - Gens

Lost World.

It's like the way you can argue that FF4-FF6 are very different to FF7-8. If you get my drift!

[Green Eyes]

Since the "SA Sonic is modern Sonic" thread got shifted to classic Sonic, I'm continuing this here.

1 hour ago, Green Eyes said:

I don't really like the idea of classic Sonic and modern Sonic as "different Sonic's" to be honest, either. I believed that the monikers were for convenience only, and very much on the same level as "SA Sonic". I never really considered it a thing with Generations because I assumed "classic Sonic" wouldn't be back.

If we're really going to do the separation thing then arguably "neoclassic" Sonic isn't classic Sonic.

I can't help but feel Modern Sonic's a more believable evolution of Classic Sonic than the "neoclassic Sonic" seen in Generations. I may not be able to canonically prove my point, but at the very least, out-universe, neoclassic Sonic acts as an extension of Sonic, while modern Sonic acts AS Sonic, and this isn't how classic Sonic should function, especially if you want me to believe neoclassic Sonic is classic Sonic but modern Sonic isn't. Classic Sonic went to all that trouble just to be nostalgia bait and modern Sonic's cute mini-me, and modern Sonic loses his history, great.

I suppose at the very least, if classic Sonic keeps getting his own games, he will be the default Sonic in that setting and I wont have to deal with demoted-to-sidekick/fanservice nonsense anymore.

 

 

[VolatileMike]

On July 23, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Diogenes said:

15 minutes ago, Green Eyes said: