Does Shadow hold back when he fights Sonic?

[Diogenes]

11 minutes ago, Sparky said:

If the canon itself is such a vague, debatable topic, then how can any sort of discussion involving what the characters can do take place? Is it to the point where we know absolutely nothing about what they're capable of, because all the evidence is debatably canon? 

It's just fuzzy at the edges, man. We all know that Sonic is fast, but it's up for debate as to exactly how fast.

[Sparky]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's just fuzzy at the edges, man. We all know that Sonic is fast, but it's up for debate as to exactly how fast.

Then no one can say "Sonic can't run faster than light" as if it's a fact because evidence exists that says he can.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

No one can't say cannot run faster than the of sound because gotta go fast

[Green Eyes]

Sparky where?

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Then no one can say "Sonic can't run faster than light" as if it's a fact because evidence exists that says he can.

A character saying it is not proof. And the evidence against it is that it is nonsensical.

[Sparky]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

A character saying it is not proof. And the evidence against it is that it is nonsensical.

How is "it's nonsensical" evidence? 

This isn't the only evidence, there's also this:

[Osmium]

I know the conversation has moved on a bit but if we are talking about all sorts of crazy abilities Sonic has in other continuities then don't forget about Sonic The Comic: 

Such as where Sonic runs around half the bloody planet in 5 seconds: 

then creates a mirror out of sand by moving so fast: 

Does the W-spin attack by vibrating the molecules in front of his face 

Can break out of things by vibrating them so fast 

and moving so bleeding fast he creates a pocket dimension 

Just saying. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

There are multiple canons for Sonic's speed. So how fast he runs is always up for debate.

[Green Eyes]

A character stating something doesn't neccisarily make it so, plus if we're still talknig about Colours DS, it's kind of eclipsed by a definitive version.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Sparky said:

How is "it's nonsensical" evidence? 

Even setting aside that, by known physics, it's impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, Sonic has never been shown to move at a speed anywhere even close to the speed of light. We're talking about a speed that is hundreds of thousands of times the speed of sound, here, fast enough to go around the planet seven and a half times per second. Just about any distance that's meaningful at a human scale is meaningless at a light speed scale, there'd need to be interplanetary distances involved to even begin to question if he could get somewhere in time.

[Sparky]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Even setting aside that, by known physics, it's impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, Sonic has never been shown to move at a speed anywhere even close to the speed of light. We're talking about a speed that is hundreds of thousands of times the speed of sound, here, fast enough to go around the planet seven and a half times per second. Just about any distance that's meaningful at a human scale is meaningless at a light speed scale, there'd need to be interplanetary distances involved to even begin to question if he could get somewhere in time.

None of that matters for EVERY OTHER FASTER-THAN-LIGHT SPEEDSTER.

And the Lightspeed Dash and Lightspeed Attack exists, which were specficially stated to be the speed of light, so you can't say Sonic has never been shown moving that fast.

[Diogenes]

So a bunch of other characters are written nonsensically, so what?

[Nepenthe]

18 minutes ago, Sparky said:

How is "it's nonsensical" evidence? 

He's simply condensing the explanation of the physical impossibilities of faster-than-light travel down into "it's nonsensical." Because it is.

However, it's already physically impossible for Sonic to run at the speed of sound. So realistic physical limits should be taken out of the equation in terms of character abilities unless Sega opts in to using them to explain things or tell the story better (ex. "Sonic cannot breathe underwater," "He will die from being caught in an explosion," etc.) Like, I can buy that a completely fictional character can run faster than light.

But the kicker is still that anecdotes and claims are not hard evidence. Just because I can say I can conjure unicorns doesn't mean I can (and for my sake, do not argue that you believe I can now that I've said it.) Which leads into the bigger point that not all evidence is created equal. Some evidence is either not to be taken as absolute truth, or sometimes evidence can be equally applicable to other explanations. Saying "There's evidence for X, therefore X is true" is little more than an excuse to grasp onto whatever you believe versus an honest effort to discern reasonable truth.

Same with other speedy characters. What other characters in completely alternate universes do has absolutely no bearing on what the characters of the Sonic series can do.

[Green Eyes]

Sonic isn't every other speed-of-light speedster. And he's kind of shown to at least take SOME time to get somewhere.

[Sparky]

3 minutes ago, Green Eyes said:

Sonic isn't every other speed-of-light speedster. And he's kind of shown to at least take SOME time to get somewhere.

That's also true for the Flash.

[Green Eyes]

Edit: Screw this I'm not gonna do this anymore.

[Sega DogTagz]

Sonic has eclipsed light speed in the comic a few times. Say nothing of that "waterball" trick he pulled in my last post, he has been known to outrun videofeeds enough to see himself on the screen and he dodges laserfire just as easily as he does gunfire (assuming lasers travel at the speed of light, which most of them do - unless this is Star Wars).

 

It sounds absurd to say Sonic can move at lightspeed, but if someone wanted to be the guy to make that argument, there is a bit of "harder" evidence to back up that kind of claim. In the comics anyway.

[Zaysho]

...are we REALLY back on this? I had to re-read the last page (including what we've had to clean up already) and I can't help but feel this thread is quickly going off the rails again, already. This is a topic in itself. I'm not sure this is even about Shadow anymore or how they match up, and Nepenthe was pretty clear about moving the discussion about how Sonic's abilities are portrayed in canon/across various canons to a new topic, so please, just move on.

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

So you are completely wrong on some things about shadow and I kind of need to adress this in order

Quote

Its not hard to see why Sonic gives Shadow fits in combat. On paper, Shadow should win in a landslide, but with a deeper look we see that he lacks Sonic's raw talent. He lacks Sonic's imagination. He lacks Sonic's risk management (or lack there-of). He lacks Sonic's street wise cunning and most of all, he does not posses Sonic's sheer dumb luck.

I think Eggy hits the nail on the head here.

Spoiler

 

Sonic's raw talent? That's bullshit? Shadow has done some incredible shit in his time in this franchise to say that he lacks any type of talent is insane. Especially if you wish to use the comics as you have done earlier in your response, because shadow in shadow falls kills the equivalent of a final boss with no chaos emeralds with one chaos blast not only is the guy talented in multiple facets, and was unstoppable that the people who tried to kill him had to give him regular employment its talented in a myriad ways, he's strong enough to hand with knuckles he's smart enough in sonic 06 to be able to repair omega who we assuredly had been destroyed for a good long time before shadow found him . He's a talented fighter that multiple descriptions of the character has described other charcters to be scared of him, sonic has this weird reverence for him that even knuckles doesn't get. To say he lacks anything regarding sonic in terms a talent is bullshit. He just isn't playful and being playful isn't being talented its getting the point and getting the job done, which is he known for. Doing anything to get the job done, and that , that is a constant in almost all of his damn character descriptions to this day. 

Also risk management? You mean that guy who will regularly sacrifice his life for the cause, the guy who put knowing about where he came from aside to murder his entire family to save the world. The guy in sonic 06 who was the only one actually getting the plot done?

What in the world are you talking about street wise cunning?like he's a hedgehog who grew up in a world that has checkerboard grass dude, he isn't cody travers, sonic is about as battle weary as in anyone. Hell if someone should be more battle weary ,it should be shadow. Considering in the normal game continuity sonic is... kind of just chilling all the time and then shit goes down, shadow works for a government organization and his job is to fuck shit up. That's literally his job, they hired him because he was fucking their shit up so hard they was like " could you please fuck shit up for us " .

And dumb luck, can I point to shadow's entire existence? Shadow is the kenny of sonic. " Oh is shadow dea.... oh oh nevermind" 

 

Quote

That's the crux here. Just when you think you've got him figured out, Sonic can and will do something that will make you re-think what you know about him. Maybe he'll run faster than you've ever seen him go. Maybe he'll take a suicide dive that will uncover a gap in your defenses. Maybe he'll throw an infinity punch -- the point is when you push, he'll push back with something you'll never see coming. and it will be devastating. Enough to drive a man mad.

Spoiler

 

You mean like shadow, you mean like shadow description in like every game he has been and the things he's done. 

By the way, that's interesting you use that as an example, one because I like that arc but two because it plays against your argument. Simply put, despite all this eggman still messes with sonic. He think's he can win, he thinks that even after all that his plans will win the day.

You know who eggman really doesn't mess with anymore, even in the comic? Shadow, shadow can fight creatively and pull something out. He very much has on multiple occasions, but that isn't shadow's strength. That isn't what puts the fear into eggman, what puts the fear into eggman is  two things.

The first, is a more speculative one, egg man with assumedly more modern technology has never been able to replicate shadow even after having him in captivity, nothing. He's tried multiple times, Like a lot. Shadow the hedgehog the game reveals he's been throwing shit at the wall for so long he had whole squads of shadow robots. He doesn't functionally understand what the hell shadow is or what, and that on a scientific levels scares him. If he could make it, he could understand it, but he can't. And best believe he had plenty of opportunity to analyze all those black arm corpses shadow would have hypothetically left in his wake. but... nothing. ( Part me believes that shadow was less of a New house and more of a renevated one , but that's another thread for another time ) 

The 2nd reason which is more important is simple, shadow will do... anything to get the job done. That, include things that aren't so savory, sacrificing himself, which he has done on multiple occasions. And the most frightening thing, sacrificing you. Or a less elaborate way of saying it, murder. Sonic is shown to be a great many things , but one thing he is definitely is is compassionate and empathetic. The guy is a guy who understands, there might be some snark but he gets it, he isn't one to judge he doesn't think he should be, he lives on the free and easy, that is reflective in his actions and deeds. 

Shadow is more... i'll give you a chance,  remember the needs of many outweigh the needs of the some kind of guy. And this is reflective in everything he does, the world needs saving and he can sacrifice himself to save it? Done, guess i'm dead. Have to give any chance of having a direct line to my potential because my entire family is freaky xenomorph aliens who wanna eat people? Done they dead. Oh the master emerald shares the space with an alien that could jumpstart the depopulation of his race, move the master emerald drop the whole fucking island. (BTW I don't like how they try to play that as something serious when that island has fallen so many times and it was fine, but whatever ). He isn't compassionless , in the final ending of his game, it assumes the good path so hypothetically shadow spent his whole day helping his friends and occasioning going into hallucinogenic alien endued comas with ptsd dreams. That game was weird.He joined an orginization that tried to kill him and in the comic , who's members still kind of want to so he might make the world a better place. In the comic and in sonic rivals, he tried to convince metal sonic to join the squad fighting in foreign dimensions almost giving up his chance to come back home to convince one guy to be a cool guy for once. 

But all that said his murderous tendencies still very much exist, and his sacrifice part of the pie for the whole mentality is a part of it. " If the world tuns against me i'll fight like I always have" , if push comes to shove he'll do what he has to, and thats more than a lot of reoccurring characters in this franchise,

 

Quote

Shadow knows better than anyone what Sonic is all about. He's been impressed by his tenacity and creativity more than once. The harder you push Sonic, the bigger the counterpunch is going to be. Perhaps Shadow keeps it in reserve not wanting to push Sonic to a level he himself can't contend with? If you don't pull on a rubber band, it'll stay limp. If you don't taunt the bull, you won't catch the horns. That sort of deal.

The spoiled parts are kind of long, but this is basic summery 

Sonic isn't a threat, even if they are fighting like they have, he has never found it necessary to take of the inhibitors or to teleport sonic to someone he can function like the ocean. Or turn on the full murder version of chaos blast, because he knows whatever happens sonic is probably going to end up on the good guy side of it. I think that's kind of the reason in game...and in comic they don't really fight anymore. 

Shadow knows whats up , sonic knows whats up. 

Shadow doesn't kill him because he thinks he's a cool dude. 

Sonic trusts him because he think's shadow is a cool dude. 

I know that isn't the sexy answer, but I think that's it. 

 

[Sega DogTagz]

2 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

...are we REALLY back on this? I had to re-read the last page (including what we've had to clean up already) and I can't help but feel this thread is quickly going off the rails again, already. This is a topic in itself. I'm not sure this is even about Shadow anymore or how they match up, and Nepenthe was pretty clear about moving the discussion about how Sonic's abilities are portrayed in canon/across various canons to a new topic, so please, just move on.

Maximum apologies (Not to poke the tiger), but how do we discuss this topic without establishing these guidelines? In order to know how Shadow stacks up against Sonic, don't we need to identify what assets Sonic is working with?

I mean, for Shadow, its pretty easy. All we gotta do is say Chaos Powerz11!!1, but doesn't defining Sonic's moveset require this kind of discussion? If you guys want me to move on -- then so be it. It just feels like this is less of a derail and more of supporting conversation is all...

[Zaysho]

18 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Maximum apologies (Not to poke the tiger), but how do we discuss this topic without establishing these guidelines? In order to know how Shadow stacks up against Sonic, don't we need to identify what assets Sonic is working with?

I mean, for Shadow, its pretty easy. All we gotta do is say Chaos Powerz11!!1, but doesn't defining Sonic's moveset require this kind of discussion? If you guys want me to move on -- then so be it. It just feels like this is less of a derail and more of supporting conversation is all...

I have less of a problem with defining Sonic's moveset or power levels, but we're at a point where Sonic's powers are inconsistent that we're lifting from a variety of sources that define his abilities differently or using gameplay which is another source of confusion because of the inconsistency. And I think that (the portrayal of his abilities) does warrant a topic in itself, and it's what we initially had a problem with. And, you're right, Shadow doesn't have this issue.

To get things back on track, I think we need to maybe limit the focus a bit. Much as I love the comics, for example, I noticed a lot of pre-reboot material being referenced, and back then, Sonic's abilities were more or less up to the whims of the writer (this is somewhat alleviated by Flynn being the main/only writer, though), so I'm not sure I'd use that as a benchmark to define his abilities. At least not stuff like Sonic making a dirt trail from his shoes or the obvious lift from the Flash about vibrating his molecules, if that makes sense (especially because these were one-off things, as opposed to regular occurrences).

I'd personally reference things that we see in games' cutscenes and related reference material (mostly because we don't see gameplay specific things like Light Dash or the equipment upgrades factored into any actions Sonic takes), and if the comics had to be used, I'd go with the reboot and late Flynn stuff from the original era because I feel that's where we can start hitting Sonic's limits (even the famous moment from #175) to find a better match up.

 

[Osmium]

Just now, Zaysho said:

I have less of a problem with defining Sonic's moveset or power levels, but we're at a point where Sonic's powers are inconsistent that we're lifting from a variety of sources that define his abilities differently or using gameplay which is another source of confusion because of the inconsistency. And, you're right, Shadow doesn't have this issue.

To get things back on track, I think we need to maybe limit the focus a bit. Much as I love the comics, for example, I noticed a lot of pre-reboot material being referenced, and back then, Sonic's abilities were more or less up to the whims of the writer (this is somewhat alleviated by Flynn being the main/only writer, though), so I'm not sure I'd use that as a benchmark to define his abilities. At least not stuff like Sonic making a dirt trail from his shoes or the obvious lift from the Flash about vibrating his molecules, if that makes sense (especially because these were one-off things, as opposed to regular occurrences).

I'd personally reference things that we see in games' cutscenes and related reference material (mostly because we don't see gameplay specific things like Light Dash or the equipment upgrades factored into any actions Sonic takes), and if the comics had to be used, I'd go with the reboot and late Flynn stuff from the original era because I feel that's where we can start hitting Sonic's limits (even the famous moment from #175) to find a better match up.

 

Sorry if I was causing confusion myself, I just thought since Indigo was referencing Archie stuff, you might as well show Sonic The Comic's guns as well. 

[StaticMania]

Just now, Zaysho said:

I'd personally reference things that we see in games' cutscenes...

We can't really use anything from the game's cutscenes, there's never really any action going on that displays characters abilities. Not enough dynamic-ness...not enough showcasing. Besides that one Unleashed cutscene of course, where I'd assume Sonic was at peak condition.

[Sparky]

 What I understand, Shadow doesn't hold back and neither does Sonic. But... Shadow has inhibitors that old his power back for him, and he goes all out as much as he can. Sonic doesn't hold back, but he doesn't put max effort either. Sonic only seems to use as much effort as he needs to. Somehow, this causes both of them to be using roughly the same amount of power, as we see in the games. 

[Shadowlax]

37 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I have less of a problem with defining Sonic's moveset or power levels, but we're at a point where Sonic's powers are inconsistent that we're lifting from a variety of sources that define his abilities differently or using gameplay which is another source of confusion because of the inconsistency. And I think that (the portrayal of his abilities) does warrant a topic in itself, and it's what we initially had a problem with. And, you're right, Shadow doesn't have this issue.

To get things back on track, I think we need to maybe limit the focus a bit. Much as I love the comics, for example, I noticed a lot of pre-reboot material being referenced, and back then, Sonic's abilities were more or less up to the whims of the writer (this is somewhat alleviated by Flynn being the main/only writer, though), so I'm not sure I'd use that as a benchmark to define his abilities. At least not stuff like Sonic making a dirt trail from his shoes or the obvious lift from the Flash about vibrating his molecules, if that makes sense (especially because these were one-off things, as opposed to regular occurrences).

I'd personally reference things that we see in games' cutscenes and related reference material (mostly because we don't see gameplay specific things like Light Dash or the equipment upgrades factored into any actions Sonic takes), and if the comics had to be used, I'd go with the reboot and late Flynn stuff from the original era because I feel that's where we can start hitting Sonic's limits (even the famous moment from #175) to find a better match up.

 

I think post reboot has been a atleast pretty good barometer foor some character based stuff tbqg