Women don't hate Elise?

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I don't know what to say about Elise myself since I've neither played nor watched the cutscenes for Sonic 06, but I just want to say that I find the notion that Elise is hated mostly by men and not very much by women to be extremely dubious. The Sonic fandom has a large enough proportion of females that, if this was true, Elise wouldn't be nearly as universally despised as she is.

[J&/MA/MC]

21 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

I don't know what to say about Elise myself since I've neither played nor watched the cutscenes for Sonic 06, but I just want to say that I find the notion that Elise is hated mostly by men and not very much by women to be extremely dubious. The Sonic fandom has a large enough proportion of females that, if this was true, Elise wouldn't be nearly as universally despised as she is.

I think she became a meme that got snowballed mostly by people in the gaming community outside the Sonic fandom to acquire that reputation. I can guarantee you that outside of Sanik, Elise in her entirety is not that far behind on sites such as Memebase and 9gag. And again, women in gaming in general are less vocal about they like and don't like because they're shit scared (directs to the Gamergate thread in PD for further discussions). They're still fans though, just in the dark.   

 

[CottonCandy]

Eh, I don't hate the character. Hate is such a strong emotion. 

Elise, to me, is a forgettable character.  Alot people only remember her as the one that kissed sonic, that's it. The only reason I would put Elise above Chris is that she has a reason to exist in the plot. Chris is just there.

I think she has alot of potential of being a pretty likable character. I think her interaction with sonic would be interesting if the game didn't try to shoehorned awkward romance in there.

 

[WakanoBaka]

Maybe cause Elise was written by a woman...maybe.
 IDEK

She was written...humanish I guess....

 

I mean, I don't hate her...

 

J-just watch this..

 

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDby2hq_5iY[/media]

[Badnik Mechanic]

What was the range and number of people he asked? 

Doesn't mean much if we don't know those numbers. I know some people preach these videos as if they're some kind of gospel of truth, but yeah this claim is very dubious, especially since we don't know the scope of the research.

Personally my opinion of the character is 'Yes that's a character' I don't particularly have feelings for or against her.

[shdowhunt60]

I doubt there was any formal research, as so much as a casual observation. And I think people are misconstruing what Roger is trying to say (once again), he's stating that men seem to be the ones that are more offended by Elise's portrayal than women themselves, not that women don't hate Elise

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

5 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

 And I think people are misconstruing what Roger is trying to say (once again),

What's up with the mentality that people are out to get Roger and never factoring the possibility that their notes of issue might actually be legit?

[Badnik Mechanic]

5 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I doubt there was any formal research, as so much as a casual observation. And I think people are misconstruing what Roger is trying to say (once again), he's stating that men seem to be the ones that are more offended by Elise's portrayal than women themselves, not that women don't hate Elise

I understand that perfectly because I have a mind, what I'm saying is, it's a misguided conclusion/statement if we don't know the pool of people asked or how he did the observations and who/how people were asked. 

Even if you just asked people on SSMB and everybody contributed, it's still a misguided statement because this is one Sonic fansite which probably has one chain of thought/consensus with the odd one or two being anomalous. 

[shdowhunt60]

Just now, IniMeenieMiney-Jo-Vahexeon said:

What's up with the mentality that people are out to get Roger and never factoring the possibility that their notes of issue might actually be legit?

Because it frankly comes off that way. It seems like whenever that Roger says a thing that people don't like, that they spin it in such a way to make it look like the most terrible thing ever and how stupid and wrong Roger is for saying it.

[FriendBot]

Just now, IniMeenieMiney-Jo-Vahexeon said:

What's up with the mentality that people are out to get Roger and never factoring the possibility that their notes of issue might actually be legit?

Especially since Roger actually encourages people to question his views so it helps mature his thoughts and stuff, if I recall correctly?

[shdowhunt60]

1 minute ago, sansy said:

Especially since Roger actually encourages people to question his views so it helps mature his thoughts and stuff, if I recall correctly?

There's a difference between challenging and question someone's views, and taking things out of context and twisting the meaning and intent behind what someone says.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

7 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Because it frankly comes off that way. It seems like whenever that Roger says a thing that people don't like, that they spin it in such a way to make it look like the most terrible thing ever and how stupid and wrong Roger is for saying it.

You're going about it all wrong if that's the only thing you're picking up from the situation. Making it sound like a hive-mind when anyone dares criticize him no matter what is terribly shady to do. And it's really unfair when you don;t even properly back up such an accusation either.

And like @sansy said, Roger welcomes criticism and the questions/debates vs and over his own views on stuff. So getting all self-righteously defensive over it ruins that process.

4 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

There's a difference between challenging and question someone's views, and taking things out of context and twisting the meaning and intent behind what someone says.

But dude, that's kinda what you seem to be doing lately with anyone who has an opposing view of Roger's. Especially when you incorrectly indicted the majority of the forum on the matter when Roger actually starting interacting with the SSMB.

[Badnik Mechanic]

11 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

There's a difference between challenging and question someone's views, and taking things out of context and twisting the meaning and intent behind what someone says.

Oh here we go. Who is doing that?

[shdowhunt60]

1 minute ago, IniMeenieMiney-Jo-Vahexeon said:

You're going about it all wrong if that's the only thing you're picking up from the situation. Making it sound like a hive-mind when anyone dares criticize him no matter what is terribly shady to do. And it's really unfair when you don;t even properly back up such an accusation either.

And like @sansy said, Roger welcomes criticism and the questions/debates vs and over his own views on stuff. So getting all defensive over it.

Right, and I could make the same accusation. Why do you feel the need to be pedantic and correct whatever it is that I say? I've noticed this coming from you rather frequently lately, and it does get incredibly annoying.

And once again, there's a difference between CRITICISM and MISCONSTRUING. I'll agree that Roger should have elaborated more when he was making that claim (which I still maintain comes off as more of a casual observation than anything). What I don't like is when people are changing the meaning of what's being said, because once again he says something that people don't like. Part of that comes from Roger's poor communication skills, but it also comes off as people ARE after him and are desperate to prove him wrong whatever the costs.

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 hour ago, shdowhunt60 said:

but it also comes off as people ARE after him and are desperate to prove him wrong whatever the costs.

And who in this topic is doing that?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

12 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Right, and I could make the same accusation. Why do you feel the need to be pedantic and correct whatever it is that I say?

Because it's annoying, generalizing and unfair to the people who have legitimate points, and who you seem content to just leave in the mix unaccounted for.

It's a weak absolute of an argument that tries to simplify the majority here and there all in the negative for the sake of white-knighting, without even bothering to solidify your point by even giving a clear idea on who's actually even at fault here. It's a shoddy trick to just pint the finger at a mass and accuse them of wrongdoing, especially when you haven't even really presented evidence to legitimize such rudeness.

Roger himself actually handles this criticism without resorting to blacklisting an alleged foe he can't point. And inthe thread more applicable, since this debate with you is getting off-topic, for example's sake, he actually dissects and gives an elucidation of reasons why ceertain Adventure fans aren't regarded in the best of lights.

 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I can understand why someone who is a fan of Roger's videos might feel annoyed by what he perceives as everyone criticizing them unduly, but there's definitely been an overreaction which is getting this thread off-topic and derailed into a way-too-personal argument. shdowhunt60, you seem to be assuming the worst of people. I can understand why you're frustrated, but even if you suspect people are getting on Roger's case too much, bringing up your suspicions in the thread, even though it was just a tiny parenthetical comment at first, is a very bad idea and comes across as generalizing and accusing people without sufficient evidence, and that a healthy conversation does not make.

And at any rate, whether or not people are "going after" Roger is not exactly the point of this thread and not a tangent that's profitable at all to pursue, so please, everyone drop this now.

[shdowhunt60]

Right. Fair enough. None of this is constructive. Sometimes I let my cynacism get the better of me. I'll drop the issue, I don't want to start fights.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Well, ignoring this off topic, I find it funny how very few people dislike Elise here (I know, we're not representing whole fandom, but what page does? I came here because I thought this is biggest forum about Sonic). It looks like most people just grew tired and numb to whole 06 thing.

[Salamander]

I'd also add another point of consideration here, which is: Do you hate the character, or the people who made her that way?  The writers, the modellers, the voice actor, the director, the localisers?  "Elise" doesn't really exist; she's a product of the flawed efforts of multiple real people.  To me, it's a bit strange to hate her because it seems to me that a lot of her problems don't exist within the fiction of the universe, and are more clearly attributable to her creators.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Sigh, I regret calling my show Dissected rather then "random brain farts" or something. I sell myself too much as a "Scientific" source then i really am.
Sadly it took too long for me to figure out what exactly I was doing.

But yeah, as mentioned by someone before, it's a casual observation I had.
Observed it around me, talking a whopping 2 girls about it. (actually, one of them had brought it up to begin with) Had a brainfart fo a possible explanation I found amusing.
I'd win a gold medal in the Kicked out of a university Olympics if I turned this in as actual research, of course.
But in my full capacity of Internetclown, I found it an amusing/ interesting thought to share.

Other then that, I think I agree with Hogfather, too small a pool of people to try from, not to mention all very specific minded (having to give a damn about a Sonic the hedgehog story to begin with). In hindsight I'm a little embarresed by the big Men versus Women things in the video, slippery slope.

For what it's worth, I think there were at least 2 women strongly disagreeing with the Elise statement, so. Yeah.

[shdowhunt60]

12 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Sigh, I regret calling my show Dissected rather then "random brain farts" or something. I sell myself too much as a "Scientific" source then i really am.
Sadly it took too long for me to figure out what exactly I was doing.

I think Dissected is still a fitting name. At it's core, it's about you picking apart the narrative of Sonic games and figuring out how it all works. I think the big mistake was initially presenting it as all being factual rather than being simply being your own observations and conclusions. I think that's what really is coming back to bite you, you came off as authoritative, and people hate when someone presents an opinion with authority.

[Singapore Sling]

3 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

 I sell myself too much as a "Scientific" source then i really am.

 

It doesn't help that, in the videos I've seen linked on boards I've gone to or videos linked to me by friends, you've misused the word science several times and it seems like you don't actually know what it means.

Props for owning up, but yeah. Your videos are insufferable largely because you prop yourself up as some cocky expert when you're regularly employing near constant logical fallacies. At your best, you oversimplify things and sound like you have a 12 year old fanfic's writer's grasp on how narrative works. That's you at your best.

[J&/MA/MC]

1 hour ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Sigh, I regret calling my show Dissected rather then "random brain farts" or something. I sell myself too much as a "Scientific" source then i really am.
Sadly it took too long for me to figure out what exactly I was doing.

You're an excellent fandom SOCIOLOGIST. and Sociology is a science. It's indeed scientific, just not on the level someone would approach this on. We're still operating on pre-Metroid: Other M levels of video game criticism here, which may explain the communication problems here. Your criticism derives from the Frankfurt School, which only places like Kotaku, Polygon and The Mary Sue operates on flawlessly nowadays.

It is scientific, so don't pull yourself down. You're not worth it.  

[Roger_van_der_weide]

1 hour ago, Singapore Sling said:

you have a 12 year old fanfic's writer's grasp on how narrative works. That's you at your best.

I hear you sir, but watch please the tone. There's 12 year old fanfic writers out there who do not wish to be associated with me.

33 minutes ago, H&/MA/MC said:

You're an excellent fandom SOCIOLOGIST.

Phew, for a moment I read that as Scientology... Amateur screwy low level Sociologist, I'll take with great pride.
Hm, did I really mention science in my video's? Either that was a spectacular bad day I wrote that in the script, or you missed that as the tongue-in-cheek self depricating humor tone I'm shooting for, because I can't imagine I'd throw myself up that high.
Heck, the entire "Old timey men in top hat on a bench" theme is deliberatly to discredit ourselves and giving the whole thing a loose "we're just a couple of idiots talking" vibe.


Anyway, apologies for going off topic here.