Is there any merit to a "mature" Sonic story?

[Jhreamer]

3 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

But who's to say that genetics even work the same way with Mobians at all? Perhaps they defy our conventional thinking of how biology works, and maybe some of how our thinking in regards to how things like evolution are not really compatible with them. It's interesting world-building stuff to think about, but I doubt we'll ever see elaboration on how it all works sadly.

Exactly. I'm at that point where I'm debating whether or not I should broach this topic in my story. Is it necessary? Does artistic license excuse it?

[Nepenthe]

50 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

But who's to say that genetics even work the same way with Mobians at all? Perhaps they defy our conventional thinking of how biology works, and maybe some of how our thinking in regards to how things like evolution are not really compatible with them. It's interesting world-building stuff to think about, but I doubt we'll ever see elaboration on how it all works sadly.

The definitely defy genetics and evolution because, again, Fang is a wolf- weasel hybrid. So there's  precedent for the idea that interspecies relationships are both normal and healthy. But when we're talking about the use of a word like "trans" that has a specific, real life meaning and context, especially as it's attached to a minority group and their respective oppression, you're not going to be able to use it divorced from that context, nor can your defense be "well it's fantasy." And I personally would stay away from ideas like "transpecies" without doing a shitload of homework.

Write what you want, but understand the subtext of what you're writing and your audience.

[shdowhunt60]

That's the thing though, "species" doesn't really fit in the context of Mobians, does it? It's more like what we would consider "race". As far as I can tell, that's  generally how the comics have treated the issue. It's more like inter-racial relationships than it is inter-species.

[RaceProUK]

2 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

That's the thing though, "species" doesn't really fit in the context of Mobians, does it? It's more like what we would consider "race". As far as I can tell, that's  generally how the comics have treated the issue. It's more like inter-racial relationships than it is inter-species.

I'd go with 'breed' rather than 'race', in the way that dogs of wildly different breeds can have viable offspring; a chihuahua and a Great Dane are both Canis lupus familiaris, so they can breed. Also avoids the negative overtones that 'race' is unfortunately saddled with.

[shdowhunt60]

I wouldn't use the term race directly. But that's conceptually what it's like, really. I also think "breed" kind of dehumanizes them a little. I know that's a little weird in the context of anthropomorphic animals, but... Eh.

[RaceProUK]

To me, the concept of 'race' carries with it not just the genetic variance, but also the social and cultural aspects of civilisation too. 'Breed', on the other hand, is purely genetic variation. So Sonic, Tails, Amy, et al are three* 'breeds' in one 'race'.

*Amy is a different type of hedgehog (African pygmy) to Sonic (European)

[shdowhunt60]

I suppose? Like I said, not a fan of the term "breed". It's one of those things, like I hate it when their hands are referred to "paws".

[Nepenthe]

13 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

That's the thing though, "species" doesn't really fit in the context of Mobians, does it? It's more like what we would consider "race". As far as I can tell, that's  generally how the comics have treated the issue. It's more like inter-racial relationships than it is inter-species.

In the context of just having a relationship, yes it would be more akin to race. However, John specifically made a note about an idea for "transpecies" and I began discussing why that's not a thing, even in the context of the series. Similarly, transrace wouldn't be a thing.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, Azoo said:

Making Sonic and Amy work would require Sonic to suddenly realize he was in love with her this whole time or something dumb like that and letting Amy slow him down for the sake of romance, or Amy being more mobile and changing herself some to where it works better for Sonic. It doesn't really work that well and feels more like trying to shove a round peg into a square hole because "blue boy + pink girl = romance".

Plus, to me it seems kind of obvious what with Amy's given age that (despite everyone being coded as slightly older than their canon ages) Amy's love for Sonic is equivalent to a prepubescent / young teenaged schoolgirl crush, a kind of crush without much thought put into how it realistically works.

Usually in media that use a trope like that, it ends up being where it doesn't work out because the girl's passion is one-sided and based off of infatuation and not off of compatibility. Making it where she wins in the end despite all of that is kind of.. bad writing, I'd say?

If we were to take character arcs and writing more seriously, I'd like it better if Amy were to realize how they wouldn't work out, and then whilst still liking him that way she at least matures enough to see why it's incompatible, and then grows closer to Sonic as a friend in the process. I'd like that way better than them ever becoming a thing, ever ever ever.

But once again, because "blue boy + pink girl = romance" it'd probably be the first thing they force into the games if they became more liberal with usage of romance in the plots. Blegh.

See, but you're just looking at it like that because you're actively against it lol (And you ship Sonic/Blaze, I see you :V).

Look, Sonic & Amy ain't exactly my OTP either, but I'm not going to discredit it on the basis of that alone. You could make it work, and I have read opinions from other people about (some...worse than others.) 

The way you're describing it is how a really shitty writer would do it and I like to assume a pairing like that wouldn't require morphing either characters into something they aren't. Hell, the games themselves aren't afraid to throw potential hints here and there and you can literally move on from that. 

 

[shdowhunt60]

14 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

In the context of just having a relationship, yes it would be more akin to race. However, John specifically made a note about an idea for "transpecies" and I began discussing why that's not a thing, even in the context of the series. Similarly, transrace wouldn't be a thing.

Mmm? Oh, so I was just nerding for unwarranted reasons? I tend to do that.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yeah, Sonic/Amy isnt my OTP either and also if they were made into a actual relationship it would not only ruin the magic of it but it would also be against both characters and what they stand for. Its really suppose to be, Sonic runs and Amy chases and there is a theory which I agree with that Sonic actually secretly enjoys the chase because he wants to see if Amy can keep up. And I do want to say that out of all the relationships people come up for Sonic, I have to admit, this one would tie him down the least. 

All and all, they are close friends and they should stay that way. If they can even treat them like friends again sense all who Sonic cares about nowadays is Tails.

[Nepenthe]

37 minutes ago, RaceProUK said:

To me, the concept of 'race' carries with it not just the genetic variance, but also the social and cultural aspects of civilisation too. 'Breed', on the other hand, is purely genetic variation. So Sonic, Tails, Amy, et al are three* 'breeds' in one 'race'.

*Amy is a different type of hedgehog (African pygmy) to Sonic (European)

A race is the closest thing humans have to the equivalent of breed, which are groups within a single species differentiated by phenotypes. So a breed of a race is clunky-sounding. It'd be more accurate to simply call them different species. Hybridization can occur between different species that are close enough genetically to make viable offspring, aka dogs and wolves, horses and donkeys, lions and tigers, etc.

[Jhreamer]

16 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

A race is the closest thing humans have to the equivalent of breed, which are groups within a single species differentiated by phenotypes. So a breed of a race is clunky-sounding. It'd be more accurate to simply call them different species. Hybridization can occur between different species that are close enough genetically to make viable offspring, aka dogs and wolves, horses and donkeys, lions and tigers, etc.

This is what I agree with. It's just that, in that world, the meaning of "species" is altered due to the characteristics of "Mobians". So there might need to be a new word that attributes the differences between a Mobian anthropomorphic dove to an unaltered dove, assuming they exist in that world. A biological classification even broader than species.

[azoo]

58 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

See, but you're just looking at it like that because you're actively against it lol (And you ship Sonic/Blaze, I see you :V).

Look, Sonic & Amy ain't exactly my OTP either, but I'm not going to discredit it on the basis of that alone. You could make it work, and I have read opinions from other people about (some...worse than others.) 

The way you're describing it is how a really shitty writer would do it and I like to assume a pairing like that wouldn't require morphing either characters into something they aren't. Hell, the games themselves aren't afraid to throw potential hints here and there and you can literally move on from that. 

 

No matter where I see it and if I prefer Sonic/Blaze or not, I don't like Sonic/Amy because I don't find the two to have compatible personalities or situations, and for a series that tries to keep it's characters in a generally sameish status quo, I can't see any way it would make sense without major amounts of writing altering that, which I just about know for a fact they won't do whether that's a good thing or not.

In fact, one of the biggest reasons I am a fan of Sonic/Blaze is because their personalities and life situations work together well, and I don't vibe with Sonic and Amy because they don't. :v And whatever hints given for Sonic and Amy being anything more have often had underlying elements that Sonic isn't all too interested or reluctantly gets pulled into it, with Amy being extra pushy and one-sided with the affection.

I just can't see it.

[Jhreamer]

So as far as the games go, we appear to agree: inconclusive potential for romance at best. Probably preferred it were left alone in the story of a game.

[shdowhunt60]

Call me a rebel, I prefer platonic Sonamy. I like the dynamic they have in the comics right now. Amy has a crush on Sonic, but the two are clearly friends.

[D.H]

51 minutes ago, Azoo said:

No matter where I see it and if I prefer Sonic/Blaze or not, I don't like Sonic/Amy because I don't find the two to have compatible personalities or situations, and for a series that tries to keep it's characters in a generally sameish status quo, I can't see any way it would make sense without major amounts of writing altering that, which I just about know for a fact they won't do whether that's a good thing or not.

In fact, one of the biggest reasons I am a fan of Sonic/Blaze is because their personalities and life situations work together well, and I don't vibe with Sonic and Amy because they don't. :v And whatever hints given for Sonic and Amy being anything more have often had underlying elements that Sonic isn't all too interested or reluctantly gets pulled into it, with Amy being extra pushy and one-sided with the affection.

I just can't see it.

For the sake of discussion, let me ask this question: how do Sonic & Amy's personalities & life situations fit less than Sonic & Blaze's? I mean, in Sonic games, we've seen Amy desire the same life that Sonic has, even stating in Sonic Shuffle that she wishes to be like Sonic (and yeah I know, it's Shuffle, but it's still a Sonic game). I don't really see anything about Blaze's & Sonic's life & personalities that makes it mesh better than Sonic & Amy's. I mean it's just my opinion and all, but if you could show me a few examples of how they do, that'd be great.

Now with that being said, I agree with Mikyeong, in that I don't want to see Sonic & Amy get together in the games. Not only would it ruin the dynamic those two have, but Sonic's character in general isn't in love with anybody in the games.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yeah Sonic flirts here and there but hes just not meant to be with anyone, period. I do not support any Sonic couples, especially ones involving Sonic. They even changed this with post reboot Archie where Sonic isnt really with anyone yet they can still hold a great dynamic. Also, I do want to also say that Sonic having a girlfriend will also kinda ruin Amys character in a way, mostly by attempting to "mature" her by thinking she will get Sonic but forcing the ship on to the audience or by taking away her love for Sonic all together and making her a bland "role-modely" character. 

[Azul]

First of all, HI JOHN.

Second, I'm a firm believer that Sonic has almost never been used to it's full potential in terms of story/character development, world building, etc. Due to the vast amounts of rich fictional elements, characters, settings, ambiguity of the past of the characters, the Emeralds, and the general history of the world, Sonic has a lot of untapped potential for stories. Saying the sky's the limit is an understatement. There are so many different directions the series can go. But for whatever reason, stuff like that has barely touched the tip of the ice berg.

On 1/3/2016 at 1:50 PM, JohnTheDreamer said:

Regarding the more serious takes on stories in Sonic games, I see a word being thrown around with gusto: "edgy". Perhaps only due to the inadequacy of the stories themselves, darker-toned plots with detailed and serious events tend to be berated and lamented by many fans (truly; they have all been quite inadequate).

Well after a quick Google, they're not wrong for calling Sonic edgy. For a time, that's pretty much what defined the franchise: Bandwagoning on the next big thing just to stay with the times. Elements have ranged from cursing, guns, stealing vehicles that slow you down in a game that's all about speed, and a whole bunch of gimmicks that are only seemingly set up for failure.

The difference between edgy writing and good writing is that good writing is meant to bend over backwards to constantly win over the audience with what it thinks is cool. For a very long time, we've had all these different ideas and it's great to experiment but when was the last time SEGA just had Sonic be Sonic? A care free hero with a strong sense of justice who on the surface seems like your average hypersonic hedgehog but can spout some surprinlgy profound things when you least expect it, saves the world from giant killer robots and Baldy McNosehairs and doesn't afraid of anything? Yes, it is important to think about the audience but think of it this way: What SEGA's done for the last few kids is like what moms do to show that they're "with it." In front of all of your friends. 

And Sonic can be profound or take itself seriously. Sonic Battle has without a doubt, or at least IMO, some of the best characterization in any Sonic game. My absolute favorite scene in the entire game is when Shadow goes to Emerald Beach to confront Sonic about Emerl. Sonic and Shadow are basically on two opposite ends of the spectrum. Shadow laments that he's a weapon and even goes up to the point of saying that if the world ever wants to truly find peace, they'll have to destroy them, much to Sonic's surprise. Sonic pretty much tells Shadow that they were both created with hearts and don't have it in them to kill. Never mind that Sonic forsaw that Shadow and Emerl would eventually get along due to how similar they are.It's basically a robot Anti-Christ version of Old Yeller in some cases too. I could go on nut I'm not trying to write a novel here.

Also, I don't think it matter that they're a bunch of cartoon animals. Dreamworks Studios should be an indicator that pretty much any story, cartoon or not, can pull on the old heart strings.

[Writer's Blah]

Romance is an area within the Sonic franchise that hasn't really been tread on by the games, but I personally feel is for the best. Even being a huge storytelling guy, I think I have enough sanity to recognize that trying to tackle any kind of relatable, or at the very least, believable romance is beyond the scope of what a Sonic game can offer. The structure of such a game would have to be radically different from anything we've seen thus far to accommodate this sort of narrative, and to be completely honest, I'm not even that sure if it'd be totally worth it in the end. Several years ago, I had a concept for a game focusing on Amy and her growth as a character, trying to develop her past high school crush on Sonic, to create an arc where she realizes how her efforts focused on wooing Sonic are misguided once she experiences a situation where she is placed in a role reversal, with some new character developing an unrequited crush on Amy who she's legitimately not interested in. This would, in as humble a brag can be, create a really interesting dynamic for romance that furthers character development while simultaneously not creating any major changes to the status quo. The trouble is, the gameplay style required to use such a story arc would be decidedly more RPG-like in nature, with the best case scenario basically amounting to a speedy Kingdom Hearts. It's highly experimental, and something the franchise honestly can't afford to try, especially right now. I'm sure there's some way you could sneak in some ship teases with Blaze and either Sonic or Silver, but nothing beyond that within a realistic scenario.

It's kind of sad too, because the possibility for romance within the Sonic universe could be really interesting outside the confines of a video game. As much as everybody loves to harp on the really forced and frankly, kind of icky romance subplot '06 had with Sonic and Elise, the concept of an anthro-human relationship is something that simply wouldn't be within the confines of any other fictional universe I can think of. If Sonic were a more adult series, it'd be interesting to treat this sort of thing in a similar way to how the fandom saw it, a kind of gross taboo that no sane person should support, but exists nonetheless. I remember a very similar concept being covered in the Flash-animated "There She Is!!" series of shorts, presenting a taboo romance between an anthropomorphic cat and rabbit, without using any dialogue at all. Given Sonic is a series where dialogue is commonplace, were this concept to be retried with better tact, it could potentially get young people talking more about taboo relationships, which is a very hot topic in the world right now. Steven Universe kind of does this as well, but the difference there is that anybody that actively is against relationships is painted as an obvious villain. If say, Knuckles or Rouge were outspoken against these sorts of relationships, while Tails and Amy were for them, that might present a better discussion platform via not drawing a concrete good or bad side to the argument. Then again though, with the state that nobody really takes Sonic seriously nowadays, this would probably just draw more fire for including controversial elements at all, similar to how Twilight tried to talk about the abortion argument and got absolutely burned for it. I think I've harped on this subject too long as well, so I think this is where I should bow out.

tl;dr, Sonic romances could potentially be really interesting thanks to the characters and setting of the franchise, but would probably just end up being a huge trainweck.

[Azul]

OH WAIT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT ROMANCE CUZ I LOVE ME SOME ROMANCE.

I'm not againist the idea of romance in Sonic. I'm fine that there isn't presently but I think it'd be super neat if there was. I get that some people don't want it out of preference but if you're going to argue that it has no place in Sonic because of how Archie handled it before the reboot, lemme stop you right there. If making a mistake, or a series of mistakes, was a reason for SEGA to stop trying then by that logic, they should have gave up on Sonic a long time ago. To which I zealously respond: fuck that. As some people who I am too lazy to quote but will acknowledge (y'all know who you are, y'all the real MVPs) it's about how they handle it. Anything introduced has potential to be accepted generally good or bad. It's all about that execution baby.

Besides, it's not like there aren't any potential sources for relationship sauce already present. Particularly, I'm interested in seeing how Shadow/Rouge would play out. I get that, apparently, there's a thing going on between Knux and Rouge but I'm againist that because Rouge's primary motive, stealing shiney rocks, clashes with Knuckles responsibility that he takes very seriously, protecting the biggest and shiniest of rocks. Can you honestly tell me that Rouge would give up stealing shiney rocks for some tender echidna lovin'? I mean, it's possible, because love's one hell of a drug, but the probability is extremely low.

Back on Shadouge (lolwut), it's apparent in the games, most notably in Sonic Battle where she goes out of her way to help Shadow discover what Gerald's purpose for creating him was amount other things, Rouge serves as a sort of, sitter for lack of better words and that I really wanted to say that. I'm not saying these are hints, BUT THEY COULD BE THO, HOLD ON TO WHAT IF, rather that it's apparent that Rouge has a great deal of affection or at least respect. Also, big point, write this down, they're opposites in many ways, and you know what they say about opposites. One's a socialete and the other likes scowling at the horizon, lost in thought as opposed to you know, actually talking to people. And while Rouge isn't a saint I'd reckon she's a hell of a lot nicer, you know generally speaking, than Shadow who's just kind of a dick most of the time. One's a grown independant woman who don't need no man and has experienced what the world has to offer while the other was fresh out of stasis, got amnesia, and fresh out of stasis. TWICE MAN, THAT'S ROUGH. Is it wrong to propose to the idea that Rouge could serve as a guide, one who could help Shadow find his way around the world or something along those lines? Besides, why is Shadow scowly all of the time? He seemed like a pretty chill dude on The ARK, which is saying something if he considered someone like Maria his best friend. But he's made peace with his past, there were like 3 games dedicated to him getting over it. Why is it that he still finds it necessary to go out of his way to avoid social contact as much as possible? And why is it that Rouge seems to be the only one that has broken his shell? Mind you, I'm not saying that any of these prepositions are absolute justifications for la romancia, rather I'm saying that these occurances are a possible venue for a budding romance, ya feel me?

In regards towards SonAmy, well I could argue why it's the most sound ship in the entire franchise, both from the perspective of their role in the type of fiction they're in and on a psychological level but pardon me for being a lil' bitch for being scared of possibly starting a great debate about "why my ship is better than yours, damn right it's better than yours," and that's just bad for everyone. However, if anyone is interested in reading what I have to say and as long as you folks double super special pinkey promise me that you will be civil, and I do frankly apologize if it's begining to sound like I'm mini-moding because that's the last thing I want to do, I'll share my thoughts.

In all honesty, I'm extremely doubtful that we'll ever see any focus on relationships in Sonic. But there are ENDLESS POSIBILITES. IT DOESN'T MATTER how they implement it into the series as long as it's not done half-assed. It should lead to development for both of the characters involved and it should be developed slowly because having Tails suddenly say "YO CREAM, CALL ME ASH KETCHUM 'CAUSE I CHOOSE YOU, WANNA BE MY GIRL?" because nothing screams bad writing like putting two people together without any sort of allusion before hand.

On 1/9/2016 at 5:51 PM, Mikyeong said:

Yeah, Sonic/Amy isnt my OTP either and also if they were made into a actual relationship it would not only ruin the magic of it but it would also be against both characters and what they stand for. Its really suppose to be, Sonic runs and Amy chases and there is a theory which I agree with that Sonic actually secretly enjoys the chase because he wants to see if Amy can keep up. And I do want to say that out of all the relationships people come up for Sonic, I have to admit, this one would tie him down the least. 

All and all, they are close friends and they should stay that way. If they can even treat them like friends again sense all who Sonic cares about nowadays is Tails.

Now don't take this the wrong way because I support SonAmy. I respect your opinion and in no way intend to insult or belittle you or it, nor do I intend to start a heated debate. But somethings you said are raising a few question mark in the ol' thinking box. Like what do you mean by "ruin the magic?" More specifically, what does "magic" even mean in the context of Sonic and Amy's relationship? Because typically, magic is used to refer to people who actually are in a relationship. And how could a relationship between the two ruin everything they stand for or go againist their individual characters when 1) there's nothing in Sonic's character that would force Amy to abandon her personal philosophy, especially considering that she's not afraid to stand up to Sonic when she thinks he's wrong, and 2) Amy being in love with Sonic for a time has been the very definition of her character?

[Jhreamer]

I love you, Azul.

At this point, I am quite against the detailed pursuit of romance in Sonic games. I think it could be very interesting to see in other Sonic-related media, though.

[NintendoSoul]

In general, something being lighthearted and for kids doesn't mean it can't be written maturely. The issue I think some fans have with the concept is the pop-cultural conflation of "mature" with "dark and edgy", which makes them think of crap like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 2006. 

 

No, Sonic can work with more mature writing in a lighthearted game. You'd just have to find someone that knows what they're doing, which is never easy.

[RaceProUK]

1 hour ago, NintendoSoul said:

In general, something being lighthearted and for kids doesn't mean it can't be written maturely.

Case in point: every Disney-Pixar movie

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Except Disney-Pixar can get pretty dark in itself.