*(Sonic the Hedgehog - Were The Tone/Atmosphere/Demographic Changes Necessary?)*

[PandoloFox]

And that's a fair reading from Sonic's point of view. It's why Sonic doesn't deserve to be demonized for trusting Eggman. He genuinely didn't mean any harm to Tails, and genuinely tried to do the right thing.

But let me make up an analogy.

Say you know two guys, Dave and Phil. They both work as car mechanics for a living, and they're both pretty great at it. Dave, he's been your friend practically forever. You grew up together, he was the best man at your wedding, you've both slurred "I love you man!!!" at each other while drunk more times than you could count. You'd take a bullet for him, and he for you. Phil, on the other hand, is an asshole, and everyone knows it. He stole your and Dave's lunch money all throughout grade school. He egged your house and TP'd Dave's last Halloween. He grabbed your wife's ass at the Christmas party. Anytime someone brings up Phil, the first words out of your mouth are "Fuck Phil, he's an asshole" and Dave follows with an "amen!".

And then you're driving to work one day and the "check engine" light comes on, and that clanking noise you've been ignoring gets worse, and is that smoke coming from under the hood? So you fucked up and drove it too hard and now you need to get it repaired. And so you're talking to Dave, and he's like "hey man don't worry, I've got your back, hell I won't even charge you for it".

And then you say to him "well I want to be sure it gets fixed, so I'm gonna call Phil and have him take a look at it".

...so does Dave not have grounds to say "what the fuck man, why are you bothering with that asshole? I told you I'd take care of it!"

I guess I'm stepping out of the discussion at this point. If this doesn't change anyone's minds (and at this point I doubt it), I can't imagine anything I could say will.

Well, in this particular case there is nothing at stake by choosing either of them and this phil person doesnt seem to have built your car from scratch so there is no benefit to actualy call him. In this scenario i would get angry if i were dave. There is litterly no reason why he would call phil.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

And that's a fair reading from Sonic's point of view. It's why Sonic doesn't deserve to be demonized for trusting Eggman. He genuinely didn't mean any harm to Tails, and genuinely tried to do the right thing.

But let me make up an analogy.

Say you know two guys, Dave and Phil. They both work as car mechanics for a living, and they're both pretty great at it. Dave, he's been your friend practically forever. You grew up together, he was the best man at your wedding, you've both slurred "I love you man!!!" at each other while drunk more times than you could count. You'd take a bullet for him, and he for you. Phil, on the other hand, is an asshole, and everyone knows it. He stole your and Dave's lunch money all throughout grade school. He egged your house and TP'd Dave's last Halloween. He grabbed your wife's ass at the Christmas party. Anytime someone brings up Phil, the first words out of your mouth are "Fuck Phil, he's an asshole" and Dave follows with an "amen!".

And then you're driving to work one day and the "check engine" light comes on, and that clanking noise you've been ignoring gets worse, and is that smoke coming from under the hood? So you fucked up and drove it too hard and now you need to get it repaired. And so you're talking to Dave, and he's like "hey man don't worry, I've got your back, hell I won't even charge you for it".

And then you say to him "well I want to be sure it gets fixed, so I'm gonna call Phil and have him take a look at it".

...so does Dave not have grounds to say "what the fuck man, why are you bothering with that asshole? I told you I'd take care of it!"

I guess I'm stepping out of the discussion at this point. If this doesn't change anyone's minds (and at this point I doubt it), I can't imagine anything I could say will.

Except one problem with that analogy. That goes on the logic that both Dave and Phil have equal amount of knowledge and skill on how to fix cars. Lost World's story works on the stated fact that Eggman has much more knowledge on the machine than Tails, because he created it. Therefore, he knows the parts and inner workings of how the machine works and can get straight to work on fixing the machine, where Tails would need to study the machine to learn what makes it tick, and what makes it work, and figure out what he would need to not only stop the process, but to reverse it.

So the only way this analogy could work is if Phil had more knowledge of the car you have, and therefore would be able to fix it quicker, and more effectively, and even then, the analogy still doesn't work because they aren't in a time sensitive situation, meaning there's no reason why he would get Phil to fix it. Sonic had an excuse, they were already on borrowed time as is, so they didn't have time for Tails to study out the machine.

[Briraka]

Why don't we all just agree everyone was out of character and going through the male equivalent of menopause in Lost World...?

Because I don't believe he was entirely out of character. Tails, having gained some form of confidence in the past, could have that confidence turned into an ego. Therefor, when he interprets Eggman stepping into his territory as Sonic's tech guy, so he fusses about the situation because as a child, he lacks the maturity to be able to tell his friend why trusting Eggman might be a bad idea other than "you don't trust me!".

[PandoloFox]

Also in the car scenario described, dave is offering to fix it "free of charge" to boot. i would be an idiot to call phil when there is only benefits to choose dave and nothing gained by calling phil.

[Vertekins]

Because I don't believe he was entirely out of character. Tails, having gained some form of confidence in the past, could have that confidence turned into an ego. Therefor, when he interprets Eggman stepping into his territory as Sonic's tech guy, so he fusses about the situation because as a child, he lacks the maturity to be able to tell his friend why trusting Eggman might be a bad idea other than "you don't trust me!".

...But something like this would be far easier to swallow if actual development had been afforded to it.

No such thing has occured. Which is why it's hard to stomach.

Charaters don't just change from humble to demanding praise and boasting about what they've done. Especially when they've already been estabished as acknowledging the value the person closest to them places in them. The way Tails has been since Pontac and Graff have been characterizing him isn't all that great partly because of this and I fail to see personally why his current portrayals garner the praise that they don't deserve IMO.

[Ratcicle King]

Except one problem with that analogy. That goes on the logic that both Dave and Phil have equal amount of knowledge and skill on how to fix cars. Lost World's story works on the stated fact that Eggman has much more knowledge on the machine than Tails, because he created it. Therefore, he knows the parts and inner workings of how the machine works and can get straight to work on fixing the machine, where Tails would need to study the machine to learn what makes it tick, and what makes it work, and figure out what he would need to not only stop the process, but to reverse it.

So the only way this analogy could work is if Phil had more knowledge of the car you have, and therefore would be able to fix it quicker, and more effectively, and even then, the analogy still doesn't work because they aren't in a time sensitive situation, meaning there's no reason why he would get Phil to fix it. Sonic had an excuse, they were already on borrowed time as is, so they didn't have time for Tails to study out the machine.

Problem is, Tails ALSO makes the point that Sonic is trusting Eggman, the same guy who five minutes ago was enslaving a race of super powered lizard people to kill Sonic and make an army of robots, while also making the life stealing machine that got them all into this mess on the first place. Eggman should NOT be trusted no matter the situation because he will try to turn it around into his favor, and that's what bites for Tails, Sonic is literally trusting the guy who tried to kill him and everyone else more times than they can remember instead of him because he knows more of the machine even tho' Tails is on an equal level of skill in technology with Eggman. Heck, they shouldn't trust him BECAUSE he knows the machine better than them, for all they knew it had a ''Use all the energy to blow up'' feature or heck, even a direct way of stealing the life force from people so he'd set up a trap for them while pretending to fix it.

Not just that, I'm pretty sure Eggman doesn't know how to revert the process, I think he outright states that, instead the plan was to stop the machine before it does more damage, so trusting Eggman would not fix things, just stop them from getting worse, which honestly Sonic could do it himself by just ripping the machine apart. If It's clear Eggman can't do anything to fix it, why not let Tails try? He probably knows a few things Eggman doesn't.

And what happens at the end of the game? Oh yeah, Eggman doesn't stop the machine, instead uses the power it collected to betray and try to kill Sonic, reasoning that he can rule whatever's left of the world. Toootally cool to trust him over Tails, it's not like this was completely predictable, cept literally everyone involved should've seen it coming.

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Problem is, Tails ALSO makes the point that Sonic is trusting Eggman, the same guy who five minutes ago was enslaving a race of super powered lizard people to kill Sonic and make an army of robots, while also making the life stealing machine that got them all into this mess on the first place. Eggman should NOT be trusted no matter the situation because he will try to turn it around into his favor, and that's what bites for Tails, Sonic is literally trusting the guy who tried to kill him and everyone else more times than they can remember instead of him because he knows more of the machine even tho' Tails is on an equal level of skill in technology with Eggman. Heck, they shouldn't trust him BECAUSE he knows the machine better than them, for all they knew it had a ''Use all the energy to blow up'' feature or heck, even a direct way of stealing the life force from people so he'd set up a trap for them while pretending to fix it.

Not just that, I'm pretty sure Eggman doesn't know how to revert the process, I think he outright states that, instead the plan was to stop the machine before it does more damage, so trusting Eggman would not fix things, just stop them from getting worse, which honestly Sonic could do it himself by just ripping the machine apart. If It's clear Eggman can't do anything to fix it, why not let Tails try? He probably knows a few things Eggman doesn't.

And what happens at the end of the game? Oh yeah, Eggman doesn't stop the machine, instead uses the power it collected to betray and try to kill Sonic, reasoning that he can rule whatever's left of the world. Toootally cool to trust him over Tails, it's not like this was completely predictable, cept literally everyone involved should've seen it coming.

EXCEPT, the problem with that is they trusted them to not backstab them in the past before (I.E: SA 1, SA 2, Shadow, 06). In the main series, I'm pretty sure this is the first time he's actually betrayed them when working together.

Sonic isn't trusting him either. He mocks Eggman, and shows disgust at the entire situation several different times, but gritted his teeth to get through it. On top of that, keep in mind that Eggman did save Tails' life as well. Tails might be on a equal level on tech like Eggman, but that still doesn't change the fact Tails doesn't know how it was built, what was used to build it. On top of that, if there was a more direct way to steal the life force, I'm pretty sure Eggman would have just done that to begin with, rather than letting it slowly steal it.

And I'm pretty sure as well that the second Eggman tried to come up with that plan, Sonic flat out told him it wasn't going to happen. Eggman likely came up with that plan because he had no regard for the lives, and just wanted a quick fix until Sonic stopped him from doing that.

[Briraka]

...But something like this would be far easier to swallow if actual development had been afforded to it.

No such thing has occured. Which is why it's hard to stomach.

Charaters don't just change from humble to demanding praise and boasting about what they've done. Especially when they've already been estabished as acknowledging the value the person closest to them places in them. The way Tails has been since Pontac and Graff have been characterizing him isn't all that great partly because of this and I fail to see personally why his current portrayals garner praise that I feel they don't really deserve.

I like the idea of Tails being a brat here because it allows the audience to see an unseen part of him. Also, because I find perfectly sweet child characters to be both unrealistic and fucking boring. I will however, agree with you about how they didn't really take the time to develop this trait of his.

And I didn't give this portrayal absolute praise, seeing as I just criticized how badly handled his character arc was. All I said was that the idea wasn't completely garbage, which, come to think of it, is something Adventure-Unleashed fans do all the time for their favored ideas from those games, but when someone brings up anything from Colours onward, they just get a big ol' "no, that's terrible and here's a five page essay why."

[PandoloFox]

Problem is, Tails ALSO makes the point that Sonic is trusting Eggman, the same guy who five minutes ago was enslaving a race of super powered lizard people to kill Sonic and make an army of robots, while also making the life stealing machine that got them all into this mess on the first place. Eggman should NOT be trusted no matter the situation because he will try to turn it around into his favor, and that's what bites for Tails, Sonic is literally trusting the guy who tried to kill him and everyone else more times than they can remember instead of him because he knows more of the machine even tho' Tails is on an equal level of skill in technology with Eggman. Heck, they shouldn't trust him BECAUSE he knows the machine better than them, for all they knew it had a ''Use all the energy to blow up'' feature or heck, even a direct way of stealing the life force from people so he'd set up a trap for them while pretending to fix it.

Not just that, I'm pretty sure Eggman doesn't know how to revert the process, I think he outright states that, instead the plan was to stop the machine before it does more damage, so trusting Eggman would not fix things, just stop them from getting worse, which honestly Sonic could do it himself by just ripping the machine apart. If It's clear Eggman can't do anything to fix it, why not let Tails try? He probably knows a few things Eggman doesn't.

And what happens at the end of the game? Oh yeah, Eggman doesn't stop the machine, instead uses the power it collected to betray and try to kill Sonic, reasoning that he can rule whatever's left of the world. Toootally cool to trust him over Tails, it's not like this was completely predictable, cept literally everyone involved should've seen it coming.

 

This had been perfectly fine if tails had spun it from that angle. Debating sonic about going through with that plan since making deals with the bad guys isnt exactly a wise choice. Instead he made it about himself and that Sonic had no faith in him when again, this was never actualy displayed by sonic.

And Sonic never even says that he trusts eggman, he is saying that they need eggman because it was he who built the machine. sonic is being hasty ( with every right i might add ) since there is a machine sucking the life out of a planet. He wants to save people as fast as possible, tails who knows that sonic always makes hasty decisions ( even displayed in a previous cutscene when sonic kicks the conk out of eggmans hand ) Should have read into the situation better and reasoned with sonic. And even at that, tails would also understand the situation they were in. Simply going " dont make deals with the devil "  is not an easy decisions in times like these.

and as previously mentioned, they have teamed up with eggman before. this would put some suspicion aside.

[Ratcicle King]

EXCEPT, the problem with that is they trusted them to not backstab them in the past before (I.E: SA 1, SA 2, Shadow, 06). In the main series, I'm pretty sure this is the first time he's actually betrayed them when working together.

Sonic isn't trusting him either. He mocks Eggman, and shows disgust at the entire situation several different times, but gritted his teeth to get through it. On top of that, keep in mind that Eggman did save Tails' life as well. Tails might be on a equal level on tech like Eggman, but that still doesn't change the fact Tails doesn't know how it was built, what was used to build it. On top of that, if there was a more direct way to steal the life force, I'm pretty sure Eggman would have just done that to begin with, rather than letting it slowly steal it.

And I'm pretty sure as well that the second Eggman tried to come up with that plan, Sonic flat out told him it wasn't going to happen. Eggman likely came up with that plan because he had no regard for the lives, and just wanted a quick fix until Sonic stopped him from doing that.

During all the other cases, Eggman had no resources, SA1 his last weapon was destroyed, SA2, he was betting everything on the ARK, and now he had just his mech to count on and in the end he seems too lost in his thoughts because of the whole thing to even consider a betrayal, Heroes, his entire Fleet was wrecked and what was left of it used to make the now destroyed Metal Overlord and he still tries to get away from all this mess, Shadow, it's implied the fight with the Aliens and GUN took all his remaining resources as they were fighting his fleet and invading his bases and in the end he tries to escape to get the Chaos Emeralds, 06 he had literally nothing to help him there and once time is reset we don't even see him again. Here, he still has an entire army around the planet and bases all over the place, he could very well try something.

Eggman saved Tails, yes, but that doesn't change the fact one game ago he had him kidnapped just to set a trap for Sonic and two games ago he was mindraping him and ready to force Sonic to fight him, even if he did one nice thing, doesn't remove all the other stuff he did in the past, heck, he could've saved Tails just to gain Sonic's trust, as he knows how Sonic and him are close.

I think the problem is just that too, Sonic shows his disgust on having to trust Eggman, but he STILL DOES IT ANYWAYS over trusting Tails' skill, and every time he mocks Eggman he might as well have said ''Well you're a genocidal prick, but still better than trusting Tails''. And in the end Tails was right all along, he could've fixed the machine and Eggman did betray them, yes, Sonic had no way of knowing the first and probably thought he could predict the second, but it's the same thing as Tails saying ''Oh I don't trust Sonic to beat the Zetti, maybe we should leave him on the sidelines and get Eggman to kill them, he seems pretty pissed about them.'' it's not just not trusting a friend for the sake of making sure the job gets done, it's completely doubting of his skills in the first place, Tails always placed his trust on Sonic for saving the world, why can't he do the same for once? Nope, gotta trust the madman who built the machine, yes that just places our mission at an even bigger risk because now I gotta look out for him betraying us along with dealing with all this other shit, but it's better doing that than trusting the guy who never lets me down when it comes to tech.

The same logic of ''Eggman built it he can fix it'' could be applied to any other adventure honestly. Eggman studied Perfect Chaos, lets let him save Station Square, Sonic sit quiet there, here Eggman, take the Chaos Emeralds. Eggman knows the ARK better than any of us, Sonic sit down and let him and his team fix everything, they don't need us here. Eggman built Metal Sonic, let's let him fix this mess because he knows him better than us all.

Honestly, Tails did overreact a bit, but it wasn't without any reason. They could have set it up a little bit better, but it still works, Sonic prefers trusting Eggman over Tails because Eggman had a better chance of fixing it than Tails, while Tails placed his trust on Sonic every single time the chances of him winning were close to zero.

 

...But something like this would be far easier to swallow if actual development had been afforded to it.

No such thing has occured. Which is why it's hard to stomach.

Charaters don't just change from humble to demanding praise and boasting about what they've done. Especially when they've already been estabished as acknowledging the value the person closest to them places in them. The way Tails has been since Pontac and Graff have been characterizing him isn't all that great partly because of this and I fail to see personally why his current portrayals garner the praise that they don't deserve IMO.

The development is still there but we're looking at the wrong angle here.

Tails is standing up to Sonic and berating him for making a stupid choice on his eyes, he's not impressed by Sonic's actions, he's on the same level as him, something the Adventure games were setting up, compare the Tails from the beginning of Adventure to the one here, he'd probably just follow Sonic's plan without voicing his problems with it and would be scared of the Deadly Six kidnapping him, here he literally treats the entire situation like an inconvinience and easily turns the tables to his favor when it looks like they've won.

[PandoloFox]

During all the other cases, Eggman had no resources, SA1 his last weapon was destroyed, SA2, he was betting everything on the ARK, and now he had just his mech to count on and in the end he seems too lost in his thoughts because of the whole thing to even consider a betrayal, Heroes, his entire Fleet was wrecked and what was left of it used to make the now destroyed Metal Overlord and he still tries to get away from all this mess, Shadow, it's implied the fight with the Aliens and GUN took all his remaining resources as they were fighting his fleet and invading his bases and in the end he tries to escape to get the Chaos Emeralds, 06 he had literally nothing to help him there and once time is reset we don't even see him again. Here, he still has an entire army around the planet and bases all over the place, he could very well try something.

Eggman saved Tails, yes, but that doesn't change the fact one game ago he had him kidnapped just to set a trap for Sonic and two games ago he was mindraping him and ready to force Sonic to fight him, even if he did one nice thing, doesn't remove all the other stuff he did in the past, heck, he could've saved Tails just to gain Sonic's trust, as he knows how Sonic and him are close.

I think the problem is just that too, Sonic shows his disgust on having to trust Eggman, but he STILL DOES IT ANYWAYS over trusting Tails' skill, and every time he mocks Eggman he might as well have said ''Well you're a genocidal prick, but still better than trusting Tails''. And in the end Tails was right all along, he could've fixed the machine and Eggman did betray them, yes, Sonic had no way of knowing the first and probably thought he could predict the second, but it's the same thing as Tails saying ''Oh I don't trust Sonic to beat the Zetti, maybe we should leave him on the sidelines and get Eggman to kill them, he seems pretty pissed about them.'' it's not just not trusting a friend for the sake of making sure the job gets done, it's completely doubting of his skills in the first place, Tails always placed his trust on Sonic for saving the world, why can't he do the same for once? Nope, gotta trust the madman who built the machine, yes that just places our mission at an even bigger risk because now I gotta look out for him betraying us along with dealing with all this other shit, but it's better doing that than trusting the guy who never lets me down when it comes to tech.

The same logic of ''Eggman built it he can fix it'' could be applied to any other adventure honestly. Eggman studied Perfect Chaos, lets let him save Station Square, Sonic sit quiet there, here Eggman, take the Chaos Emeralds. Eggman knows the ARK better than any of us, Sonic sit down and let him and his team fix everything, they don't need us here. Eggman built Metal Sonic, let's let him fix this mess because he knows him better than us all.

Honestly, Tails did overreact a bit, but it wasn't without any reason. They could have set it up a little bit better, but it still works, Sonic prefers trusting Eggman over Tails because Eggman had a better chance of fixing it than Tails, while Tails placed his trust on Sonic every single time the chances of him winning were close to zero.

 

The development is still there but we're looking at the wrong angle here.

Tails is standing up to Sonic and berating him for making a stupid choice on his eyes, he's not impressed by Sonic's actions, he's on the same level as him, something the Adventure games were setting up, compare the Tails from the beginning of Adventure to the one here, he'd probably just follow Sonic's plan without voicing his problems with it and would be scared of the Deadly Six kidnapping him, here he literally treats the entire situation like an inconvinience and easily turns the tables to his favor when it looks like they've won.

How? the deadly six just took controll of all his mechs and he would need to actualy go to another planet to get more resorces. I dont think sonic would let that fly. not to mention that he is constantly being watched by sonic. its not before he fakes his death that he has time to get the equipment he needs to actualy fight anyone.

Recognising that eggman can fix the machine faster than tails because of the fact that he built it is not the same as doubting tails skills. there is an obvious knowledge gap about this machine, its not something tails can exactly deny. And that scenario with the zetti is not nearly the same thing, Eggman has no tech to defeat the zetti. his conk was kicked away ( the only tool he had to subdue them ) and his bots are under zetti controll. Had eggman actualy had a great and effective plan to defeat the zetti then there would be a difference. Best course of actions taken in order to get results. And this argument is based on the premise that sonic wouldnt let tails try to fix the machine which is again never stated. im pretty sure that if tails comes up with a solution quicker than eggman sonic would trust him. He just brings "insurance". 

Sonic adventure, eggmans egg carrier meant to stop chaos got shot down, he then leaves it up to sonic. Sonic adventure 2, im pretty sure that eggman mentions that they need someone that is realy fast in order for everything to work in which sonic replies " no worries, im the world fastest hedgehog " So its not like eggman can actualy do this without them. sonic heroes, metal sonic has litterly transformed into a being that only super sonic can handle, what do you want eggman to do?

except that sonic isnt trusting eggman over tails, he is bringing eggman along since eggman has the obvious advantage at fixing the machine, but if tails figures it out faster then why would he deny him to fix it? Its not like both eggman and tails offered a solution and sonic chose eggman. he is just bringing him along just in case. A plan B scenario.



 

[Ratcicle King]

How? the deadly six just took controll of all his mechs and he would need to actualy go to another planet to get more resorces. I dont think sonic would let that fly. not to mention that he is constantly being watched by sonic. its not before he fakes his death that he has time to get the equipment he needs to actualy fight anyone.
Recognising that eggman can fix the machine faster than tails because of the fact that he built it is not the same as doubting tails skills. there is an obvious knowledge gap about this machine, its not something tails can exactly deny. And that scenario with the zetti is not nearly the same thing, Eggman has no tech to defeat the zetti. his conk was kicked away ( the only tool he had to subdue them ) and his bots are under zetti controll. Had eggman actualy had a great and effective plan to defeat the zetti then there would be a difference. Best course of actions taken in order to get results. And this argument is based on the premise that sonic wouldnt let tails try to fix the machine which is again never stated. im pretty sure that if tails comes up with a solution quicker than eggman sonic would trust him. He just brings "insurance". 

Sonic adventure, eggmans egg carrier meant to stop chaos got shot down, he then leaves it up to sonic. Sonic adventure 2, im pretty sure that eggman mentions that they need someone that is realy fast in order for everything to work in which sonic replies " no worries, im the world fastest hedgehog " So its not like eggman can actualy do this without them. sonic heroes, metal sonic has litterly transformed into a being that only super sonic can handle, what do you want eggman to do?

except that sonic isnt trusting eggman over tails, he is bringing eggman along since eggman has the obvious advantage at fixing the machine, but if tails figures it out faster then why would he deny him to fix it? Its not like both eggman and tails offered a solution and sonic chose eggman. he is just bringing him along just in case. A plan B scenario.



 

Except Eggman wasn't the plan B, he was the plan A and Tails was never considered a plan, Sonic literally stated he's counting on Eggman because he feels he has a lesser chance of fucking up than Tails, how is that not considered lack of trust?

[PandoloFox]

Except Eggman wasn't the plan B, he was the plan A and Tails was never considered a plan, Sonic literally stated he's counting on Eggman because he feels he has a lesser chance of fucking up than Tails, how is that not considered lack of trust?

Again, operating from the fact that there is an actual knowledge gap about this machine. But sonic is never pushed into a scenario where he has to chose between tails or eggman. counting on someone to get it right doesnt mean that you distrust the other person. when confronted sonic says that he trusts tails but that it is eggmans machine thus they should bring him with them which again is very on point. And tails isnt exactly offering a solution, he is just stating that he can do it. while eggman is already comming up with ideas to how to shut it down.

[Ratcicle King]

Again, operating from the fact that there is an actual knowledge gap about this machine. But sonic is never pushed into a scenario where he has to chose between tails or eggman. counting on someone to get it right doesnt mean that you distrust the other person. when confronted sonic says that he trusts tails but that it is eggmans machine thus they should bring him with them which again is very on point. And tails isnt exactly offering a solution, he is just stating that he can do it. while eggman is already comming up with ideas to how to shut it down.

Not really that depends on the person, yes Eggman has knowledge of the machine, but even considering his skills over Tails' is already a kick in the nuts, because it means he's not sure Tails can do it and prefers risking everything by teaming up with the very threat they came here to defeat just to make sure instead of placing his trust in Tails and just locking Eggman up somewhere until this is all over. No, we have to bring Eggman too, as a constant reminder that deep down, Sonic thinks Tails can fuck this up and prefers bringing this asshole with them because he can get the job done.

[PandoloFox]

Not really that depends on the person, yes Eggman has knowledge of the machine, but even considering his skills over Tails' is already a kick in the nuts, because it means he's not sure Tails can do it and prefers risking everything by teaming up with the very threat they came here to defeat just to make sure instead of placing his trust in Tails and just locking Eggman up somewhere until this is all over. No, we have to bring Eggman too, as a constant reminder that deep down, Sonic thinks Tails can fuck this up and prefers bringing this asshole with them because he can get the job done.

I give up, i dont know why you think its him doubting tails skills when the situation calls for the best soultion at the fastest time and eggman has all the cards. And its not about if tails can do it, its about that eggman can do it faster. But at the same time its not like sonic would stop tails from fixing the machine if he came up with a great fast solution on the spot.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Not really that depends on the person, yes Eggman has knowledge of the machine, but even considering his skills over Tails' is already a kick in the nuts, because it means he's not sure Tails can do it and prefers risking everything by teaming up with the very threat they came here to defeat just to make sure instead of placing his trust in Tails and just locking Eggman up somewhere until this is all over. No, we have to bring Eggman too, as a constant reminder that deep down, Sonic thinks Tails can fuck this up and prefers bringing this asshole with them because he can get the job done.

Being fair, assuming every game is canon, Eggman has outsmarted Tails in the past (SA2 especially). Maybe Sonic does think Tails will fuck up, or maybe he just thinks Tails won't be able to learn how the machine works in time. Every second Sonic wastes is a liability at this point. The longer he waits, the longer the Zeti, and the machine has to kill his friends and steal their life force. It doesn't change the fact at that very moment, Eggman had the best chance of stopping the machine quickly. It isn't a case of if Tails can do it, it's a case of how long will it take Tails to do it.

[shdowhunt60]

I like the idea of Tails being a brat here because it allows the audience to see an unseen part of him. Also, because I find perfectly sweet child characters to be both unrealistic and fucking boring. I will however, agree with you about how they didn't really take the time to develop this trait of his.

And I didn't give this portrayal absolute praise, seeing as I just criticized how badly handled his character arc was. All I said was that the idea wasn't completely garbage, which, come to think of it, is something Adventure-Unleashed fans do all the time for their favored ideas from those games, but when someone brings up anything from Colours onward, they just get a big ol' "no, that's terrible and here's a five page essay why."

Nobody wants a perfect Tails. It's just the ridiculous amount of ego that seems way out of line.

I'm not opposed to Tails behaving like a brat either. But the way Pontac and Graff went about it is just wrong. I've seen plenty of fanfic writers make Tails behave like a brat without it breaking character. Hell, Ian Flynn did a good job of it without breaking character. Even Sonic Boom manages to do well in this regard.

The thing is, is that ultimately, Lost World doesn't do anything for me. Like, absolutely nothing. A conflict between Sonic and Tails? I've seen it before, and done I've seen it done better. Eggman being a complex individual that's more than the role that he's been assigned to? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better. Sonic's impulsiveness and rashness doing him in? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better. New and darker villians that challenge Sonic in a way that he's never experience before? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better.

And you know what? The Archie comics have an adapt of Sonic Lost World coming up. I'll bet zenni that Ian Flynn will do he entire thing, and do it better.

So what leaves Lost World for me? An absolute fucking mess of a jumbled and incoherent narrative, that gets everything from its characters to its thematics horribly wrong. A disappointing pile of mediocrity of the likes of which I haven't seen since Sonic 06. And unlike 06, which mostly just amuses me because of how obviously terrible it is, Lost World infuriates me, because it's an obvious waste of talent. The animators and the voice actors did a damn good job considering what they were given, and that's a damn shame. I haven't seen such a spectacular waste of talent since Prometheus.

[Chris Knopps]

It's like I said, Lost World is all of the characters on some sort of menopause. End of story, because that is the story.

And Ryannumber1gamer, there is no canon anymore. Generations created an eternal loop of the canon we had then we were thrown into whatever the bleep Lost World was after that which was like the aftermath of Generations, the world completely clucked up.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Chris Knopps

[Sparky]

Nobody wants a perfect Tails. It's just the ridiculous amount of ego that seems way out of line.

I'm not opposed to Tails behaving like a brat either. But the way Pontac and Graff went about it is just wrong. I've seen plenty of fanfic writers make Tails behave like a brat without it breaking character. Hell, Ian Flynn did a good job of it without breaking character. Even Sonic Boom manages to do well in this regard.

The thing is, is that ultimately, Lost World doesn't do anything for me. Like, absolutely nothing. A conflict between Sonic and Tails? I've seen it before, and done I've seen it done better. Eggman being a complex individual that's more than the role that he's been assigned to? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better. Sonic's impulsiveness and rashness doing him in? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better. New and darker villians that challenge Sonic in a way that he's never experience before? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better.

And you know what? The Archie comics have an adapt of Sonic Lost World coming up. I'll bet zenni that Ian Flynn will do he entire thing, and do it better.

So what leaves Lost World for me? An absolute fucking mess of a jumbled and incoherent narrative, that gets everything from its characters to its thematics horribly wrong. A disappointing pile of mediocrity of the likes of which I haven't seen since Sonic 06. And unlike 06, which mostly just amuses me because of how obviously terrible it is, Lost World infuriates me, because it's an obvious waste of talent. The animators and the voice actors did a damn good job considering what they were given, and that's a damn shame. I haven't seen such a spectacular waste of talent since Prometheus.

I can't wait until the Lost World arc in the comics. I just can't wait to see how Ian Flynn fixes the Tails subplot.

[RappedinBlacX]

Nobody wants a perfect Tails. It's just the ridiculous amount of ego that seems way out of line.

I'm not opposed to Tails behaving like a brat either. But the way Pontac and Graff went about it is just wrong. I've seen plenty of fanfic writers make Tails behave like a brat without it breaking character. Hell, Ian Flynn did a good job of it without breaking character. Even Sonic Boom manages to do well in this regard.

The thing is, is that ultimately, Lost World doesn't do anything for me. Like, absolutely nothing. A conflict between Sonic and Tails? I've seen it before, and done I've seen it done better. Eggman being a complex individual that's more than the role that he's been assigned to? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better. Sonic's impulsiveness and rashness doing him in? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better. New and darker villians that challenge Sonic in a way that he's never experience before? I've seen it before, and I've seen it done better.

And you know what? The Archie comics have an adapt of Sonic Lost World coming up. I'll bet zenni that Ian Flynn will do he entire thing, and do it better.

So what leaves Lost World for me? An absolute fucking mess of a jumbled and incoherent narrative, that gets everything from its characters to its thematics horribly wrong. A disappointing pile of mediocrity of the likes of which I haven't seen since Sonic 06. And unlike 06, which mostly just amuses me because of how obviously terrible it is, Lost World infuriates me, because it's an obvious waste of talent. The animators and the voice actors did a damn good job considering what they were given, and that's a damn shame. I haven't seen such a spectacular waste of talent since Prometheus.

There is a bit of a difference between a comic and a game, the difference being that comic gets to focus  solely on story/Narrative while a game is balancing many different elements that depending on the game/genre may end up being more important than the writing. LW character plots end up being nothing more than throwaway because of the abrupt way they begin and then end/settled. A comic writer can build tension throughout many issues while LW only has one game. This is why Arcs need to return to the series so that way each can build upon one the previous.  

Edited December 29, 2015 by RappedinBlacX

[Multikaris]

I agree that the tone shift should not have been permanent. I liked Colors very much under the impression it was a one-off thing. It still looked and sounded like Sonic. It sometimes played like Sonic. I accepted Generations as nigh-plotless; it was just a best-of album. But Sonic Lost World was the third strike and the final straw. From there, I was put off the main series of Sonic.

[Shadowlax]

I have a question; are you talking about if Sonic has changed its target audience to young kids instead? 

to me personally it seems like less for kids and more nostalgic adults. 

 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

There is a bit of a difference between a comic and a game, the difference being that comic gets to focus  solely on story/Narrative while a game is balancing many different elements that depending on the game/genre may end up being more important than the writing. LW character plots end up being nothing more than throwaway because of the abrupt way they begin and then end/settled. A comic writer can build tension throughout many issues while LW only has one game. This is why Arcs need to return to the series so that way each can build upon one the previous.  

It's not impossible to build up the tension and story that you mention in a game, the problem with Lost World is that it doesn't even do that. It feels like a bunch of disconnected cutscenes vaguely strung together into a somewhat coherent narrative. I think more than anything that the people who created the overall arc of the story are simply too scared of backlash from the "no story/lighthearted story-only" crowd to the point that they think removing all tension and cohesion from the narrative would somehow appease them and also give what the story fans want.

...which it didn't since neither wants such a half-assed attempt.

Edited December 29, 2015 by SenEDtor Missile

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There is a bit of a difference between a comic and a game, the difference being that comic gets to focus  solely on story/Narrative while a game is balancing many different elements that depending on the game/genre may end up being more important than the writing. LW character plots end up being nothing more than throwaway because of the abrupt way they begin and then end/settled. A comic writer can build tension throughout many issues while LW only has one game. This is why Arcs need to return to the series so that way each can build upon one the previous.  

But games can have just as much tension in just one entry than a comic can in multiple issues, thanks to it's interactive nature. Sonic has proven capable of just that in SA1, SA2, and Unleashed, primary examples being Boss fights that carry even more risk/reward since it's the player actually taking action in the work rather than just watching the characters do it in a comic, so I don't see how this difference in storytelling favors that of the comics.

And really, stories in games are generally cutscenes that flow and connect to each other no different from a comic, the only difference being that it's a lot more interactive as the audience controls the character to get from one place to another in transition to those scenes. And while there are more elements at play in a game than there are in a comic, that's doesn't exactly make the storytelling that difficult to keep from being disjointed. That last part being the problem people have with games like LW.

[shdowhunt60]

Here's something to bear in mind also, most Sonic games have anywhere between 45 minutes to an hour and a half worth of cutscenes. That's basically anywhere from an hour long special to feature length film. So I can't buy that somehow, there can't be a half decent storyline in there between that and the time with the gameplay.

And it's not like Sonic games haven't succeeded in scenes with tense moments.

This scene, to this day, remains fucking awesome in my eyes. I mean, if there's a Sonic game, which could be flawlessly to film, it's SA2. Which is why I'm astonished that Sonic X fucked up the Adventure adapts as bad as it did.