Dear Internet: Grow Up

[PSI Wind]

It's still saying "stop complaining about small problem because big problem is worse".  Which is not a proper argument.  Problems are problems.

Uhh, same difference? I assume you mean there are females among your crowd of heroes but that doesn't really count now does it.

Oh, I'm not saying you're point doesn't stand anymore. It still does. But you have over 100 characters to choose from that you can switch to in any level after you find them in a level, like Wonder Beer. Edited August 12, 2013 by PSI Tornado

[JezMM]

Oh, I'm not saying you're point doesn't stand anymore. It still does. But you have over 100 characters to choose from that you can switch to in any level after you find them in a level, like Wonder Beer.

Ahhh I see. Fair enough. I mean obviously I still think there should have been more female MAIN characters, but that is a better situation than I thought it was at least.

[Nepenthe]

I'm surprised anyone retorted to JezMM's insistence that people against gender equality are twats. The only reason I can think anyone would call this out- even if you don't agree with the tenets of Feminism- would be if the actual statement offended something you believe, so this raises the question: Are we really about to start defending the belief that people who believe in gender inequality aren't twats? I dunno; I thought that was weird to respond to.

Anyway, fighting biases that result in the exclusion of one set of people over another is not inherently exclusive towards the remaining group, unless you somehow believe that putting people on an even playing field does not inherently raise the collective health of society as a whole. When black people can own businesses, that's more money circulating in the economy which in turn helps whites by proxy. When gay couples are allowed to marry, this fosters an environment of separation of church and state which is good for heterosexuals by proxy. When women are seen as equal to men, that inevitably downplays the stigma associated with feminine qualities, which in turn will help the emotional health of men in really serious matters, such as reporting rape, by proxy.

You cannot possibly help a minority group without passing on the benefits to the majority. It is impossible by design. If Civil Rights was named Black Rights, you would still be foolish to assume it helped no one but blacks. We're all in this shit together, so when everyone is doing well, the people doing great will be that much better off.

[Celestia]

I don't think telling people to stop complaining about fake people is the same as telling real people to stop complaining about their depression. It's not even close.

I would say that, while video games are indeed fictional, they do have an effect on real people. Just like any other media, it can influence people (particularly younger individuals) in how they see the world. Which is why the representation of women in media, including video games, is considered an issue. Well, I think that's why it's an issue, anyway. I might be missing something.

 

Granted, Harlock does has a point there, in that the issues women face in other parts of the world can be a lot more immediate and even life threatening. But, in my opinion at least, it doesn't make the issues faced by women in the West and other countries not important. Especially with all the stuff in the U.S. lately regarding women, seriously...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I... really don't get it to be honest. Being a feminist isn't some special thing you choose to be or life changing decision. If you believe in equality between genders you just... are one. "Feminist" is the name for a person who does that thing.

Let me help you understand in simpler terms: I believe in gender equality (at its social and logical extreme and no less), but I couldn't care less about being called or being identified as a feminist, or even the term for that matter. I'm not saying it's something special life-changing decision.

Edit: Also, are you guys even aware that there are separate camps of Feminsim, not all of which agree with one another on how to achieve said gender equality?

Edited August 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Amomynous]

Seriously Captain Harlock.

Though I have no particular problem with you disregarding feminism as a term, I find your argument lacking.

 

Can you stop bringing 'complaining about video games' into this as some kind of proof of how irrational  feminists really are? Not only do some video games encourage violence against women but more importantly some gaming 'spheres' do.

I'm not necessarily saying I agree with all accusations of sexism in games,and most of the time no particular game or writer is at fault, it doesn't automatically matter that majority or even all of the hero characters in one game are male, it matters that the vast,vast majority of hero characters are male in games in general.

I'm also definitely not saying people work in a 'monkey see,monkey do." fashion, it's more nuanced than that and I don't pretend otherwise.

 

The intended demographics of videogames and the writing in them reflect the 'norms' that the writers see and also affirms the norm in the consumers, we are fed that men heroes are normal and women heroes aren't normal, because isn't normal for writers to care enough about those heroes to write them.

 

Protagonists are more likely to be not human than female as it happens.

The small things feed the big things.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Amomynous

[Red Cap]

Not only do some video games encourage violence against women

Okay, this has been bugging me for a while, but what the fuck constitutes as violence against women in video games? I legitimately don't understand what that means. Is it just simply female characters being hurt, or is it them being hurt while defenseless? Characters get hurt and die all the time in games, and particularly violent games like God of War also have stuff like this in it:

http://youtu.be/UH6T4bCyozs?t=13m44s

So it's just hard for me to tell what people mean by that.

[Nepenthe]

Also, are you guys even aware that there are separate camps of Feminsim, not all of which agree with one another on how to achieve said gender equality?

There's different camps of almost all ideologies whether they're sociological, political, religious, or whatever. But this doesn't mean people in different camps always inherently reject the entire label as a result. Protestants don't say they're not Christian because they don't agree in lockstep with Catholics. Fiscal conservatives don't say they're not conservatives because they may disagree vehemently with social conservatives. They take it upon themselves to recognize different factions as just that without rejecting the entire label outright on the basis of ideological differences apparent under the same umbrella.

But Feminism is apparently defined so much by its loonies that people seem to treat the movement is just that- looney- and assume that people like me actually aren't Feminists but simply "decent people."

[Tornado]

It probably would help if the loonies weren't the only ones that went out of their way to get attention.

 

 

Not only do some video games encourage violence against women but more importantly some gaming 'spheres' do.

Kinda curious what this means too.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:+feminism

Read it. That is what feminism means. There is NO discussion on this. It is cold hard fact that that is the meaning of the word.

Not sure if serious.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There's different camps of almost all ideologies whether they're sociological, political, religious, or whatever. But this doesn't mean people in different camps always inherently reject the entire label as a result.

And where exactly did I even remotely imply that they did?

Edited August 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Nepenthe]

And where exactly did I even remotely imply that they did?

I didn't say you did. I used your post as a springboard.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I didn't say you did. I used your post as a springboard.

Okay, good. Thought I was being misconstrued for a moment.

 

But I should add that it isn't just people defining feminism by just it's loonier parts either. Other people who choose to call themselves feminist do so towards the more positive parts and have only a shallow idea of what Feminism is beyond it's definition. People will look at Feminism as good and anything that doesn't choose to identify with it as bigotry, as if there is no middle ground or ignoring other people's indifference of the term. It's like identify every Christian as this backwards, anti-science, arrogant bigoty who thinks that anyone who isn't a Christian goes straight to hell when they die.

 

People group these things into a singlarity when there are differences between them. Hence JezMM discussing "Intelligent" Feminism. My question to that is, what is intelligent feminism? The Individualists? Equitists? Lip-stick? Pro-Sex? Anti-Sex? Socialists? Radicals? Which one? At what line do we draw over what is and isn't "intelligent" regarding these camps and their views over the ideology? It's easy to say common courtesy, but there are people, feminists included, who refuse to give such courtesy, hence the looneys  in the movement that lead people misunderstand feminism.

Edited August 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[SuperStingray]

So, I don't think most people in the first world are opposed to gender equality, but I do think that even people who are for it may be subconsciously afraid of the idea.  Gender inequality's worst enemy isn't the media, it's biology.  Sexism descended from nature making men and women different for a good reason.  A lot of what we call virtues, from tolerance to temperance, come from fighting against nature's current and gender equality is among them, fighting against the niches nature put in place to enable having and raising kids.  As far as nature is concerned, men and women are as equal as paper is to the pen or the lock is to the key.  Even if we believe neither is the more important one, we will never easily look at one like we do the other so long as the asymmetry exists.
 

Yes, I know that we are more than just animalistic cavemen that only listen to our genitals, but the instincts for gender roles are there and they are among the most influential we have because if they weren't, we'd have died out long ago.  The greatest fighters against traditional gender roles aren't people, they're technology and infrastructure.  The marketplace destroyed the hunter-gatherer and the vacuum, the dishwasher and the laundry machines all granted the homemaker time to do more ambitious things.  Based on that, I believe the path to true gender equality will come more from innovation than activism.

 

But on a more superficial level, I think one of the problems is the word "Feminism" itself.  Even beyond the stigma it carries, the name itself seems to acknowledge women over the cause of equality.  If I were a man that knew nothing about the idea, I'd look at it and say "how would this benefit me?"  I think it would do more for their cause if feminists started identifying themselves as egalitarians instead.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think it would do more for their cause if feminists started identifying themselves as egalitarians instead.

They do (somewhat): they call themselves either an Equity Feminist and/or Equality Feminist.

 

I don't think that's the only thing that would better feminist and their cause. They could identify themselves as egalitarians, in which they surrender their original term to the demonizations people apply to "feminism" but leave the crazies behind and gain more allies to their cause. Certainly isn't a bad thing to do.

 

Or they could simply fight the crazies in their movement as hard and as loud as the possible and show people that "no, we're not for that misandric bullshit", thereby keeping the "Feminist" label and hopefully gain as many allies that see their efforts as everyone sees them cleaning up whatever junk is harming their movement.

 

Neither is a bad path to take, and either way it goes, I would add that they make a larger effort towards men's liberation which would hopefully gain them further support, and in the best case make their strongest opposition into their strongest allies in the process. Though, I would recommend they first try and fight to keep the Feminist label, if only to keep it from being sucked into the bad parts of history and that they would be seen as giving up (which might cause other problems we're not aware of).

 

However, it should be said once again that not all feminists share the same ideas in the ideology. So who's to say that, despite whether they drop or keep the Feminist label, the crazies won't try to snake their way along with them and start the process over again? Or that, even with their non-crazies, with those feminists having different ideas that they won't have the same problems or new problems at best?

Edited August 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Candescence]

I think it would be best for me to eat crow on what I said earlier and revise my opinion - I stand by my point that not every female character has to be deliberately 'geared' towards feminists. But that doesn't give a creator free reign to do whatever, context and character variety are important, if a work's cast is too small to enable the latter, context is still important, a character should be designed in a way that actually makes sense for that context, though if this results in a certain character being blatantly 'sexist' (unless it's a setting where gender equality is a thing and you're going for something like historical accuracy), unless you're trying to make a point that isn't actually sexist, you should try to alter the context.

 

If all else fails, character depth helps - if you can properly explain why a character acts the way they do and/or why they dress how they do without the end result coming off as 'sexist', then you've done your job right.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Shirou Emiya

[JezMM]

See this is the thing, the reason my retorts back have been relatively so simple is because I am not an activist, I dunno half of these branches of feminism you guys are talking about.  I just believe men and women should be equal.  Dictionary says that makes me a feminist so identify as one.  To me, saying "I believe in equality for men and women, but I'm not a feminist" is like the same (yet opposite, of course) as someone saying "I don't believe in equality for men and women, but I'm not sexist".

 

 

I also think complaining that the word, "feminism" is female-focused is a bit silly too.  The reason it's called that is because it is about empowering women to reach the level that men are already at.  It's the same sort of thing as people complaining that there's no Straight Pride or White History month.  The only inequalities men have is being looked down upon for acting like women, which again is a problem with women being dis-empowered, not men.

 

Not sure if serious.

 

I uhh... dunno how else I could make it clear that that's what feminism means other than bringing up the dictionary definition.  If one argues "yes but what about all these people who identify as feminists but are extremists and want more than equality for women" I again refer to the definition of the word - such people clearly aren't feminists are they and don't know the meaning of the word.

Edited August 12, 2013 by JezMM

[Stacy]

What issues would be more pressing? The killing of all manhood? Christ, BW, I'd rather annoying but useless modern feminism if it stuck to games rather than going on about trying to tell other women from other countries how they shouldn't wear their burkas even if they want to. And sure, stop males from raping, but no-one says "from raping other males too" or even "stop females as well". And if you say "also, try to understand, while the blame is on the rapist, try not to dress provocatively in dangerous areas. Telling people to be careful of murderers is not victim blaming", try and gauge the response.

 

I didn't say that.   

 

I am merely pointing the irony of people say they are proud feminists but never bring up these issues and they do effect us in the 1st world what the raise of Human trafficking were Women are the main targets. Women across Europe are being kidnapped and drugged up to being slaves and work as prostitutes its becoming quite a big issue.

 

The lack of shelters that can protect women from abusive partners. Also there is young girls being groomed into being prostitutes that is becoming a big issue over here.

 

I would rather Feminists bring up these issues than constantly complain about Boobs in video games.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

To me, saying "I believe in equality for men and women, but I'm not a feminist" is like the same (yet opposite, of course) as someone saying "I don't believe in equality for men and women, but I'm not sexist".

Well first things first, it's not. It's downright insulting to those who believe in equality while choosing not to identify as feminists, is only further adding to it's negative portrayal when you compare it to those who don't believe in it as it polarizes and detracts those who don't call themselves "feminists" to your cause towards gender equality, and is downright paradoxical to compare those blatantly believe in such equality to those who don't believe in it. So stop it.

Nevermind that such a lack of belief in equality happens to find itself in the rhetoric and writings of some famous radical feminists like Valerie Solanas who wrote in her SCUM Manifesto over the elimination of the men.

You say you don't know half of these branches of feminism? Well you should be aware that the issue isn't as black and white over what someone chooses to believe in or identify themselves as. To put it simply, you are either for equality, against it, or completely indifferent to it; you shouldn't give a rat's ass whether someone chooses whether or not to call themselves a feminist. You should be giving a rat's ass towards those that are blatantly being sexist and discriminatory between the two genders irrespective of what they call themselves. But such a thing is rarely that simple when even feminists themselves can disagree with each other over what counts as sexist, hence why these many branches exist.

Secondly,

I also think complaining that the word, "feminism" is female-focused is a bit silly too. The reason it's called that is because it is about empowering women to reach the level that men are already at. It's the same sort of thing as people complaining that there's no Straight Pride or White History month. The only inequalities men have is being looked down upon for acting like women, which again is a problem with women being dis-empowered, not men.

It would still go a long way to get rid of that stigma that Feminism is female-centric if feminism reached out towards male liberation and made an effort towards dealing with men's issues without trying to offend them. Because otherwise, as far as your opposition is concerned, ignoring it or treating it as a non-issue is only serving to prove their beliefs that feminism is one-sided, thereby making your cause that much harder to fight for as those who could've been your allies towards the same goal identify your cause as an adversary to theirs instead.

I'm not the only person to believe this, because other feminists such as bell hooks advocate male liberation.

Edited August 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Tornado]

I uhh... dunno how else I could make it clear that that's what feminism means other than bringing up the dictionary definition.  If one argues "yes but what about all these people who identify as feminists but are extremists and want more than equality for women" I again refer to the definition of the word - such people clearly aren't feminists are they and don't know the meaning of the word.

Word definitions are one of the very few things where it is completely accurate to say that the facts are decided entirely by whatever the hell people commonly perceive them to be.

[JezMM]

Well first things first, it's not. It's downright insulting to those who believe in equality while choosing not to identify as feminists, is only further adding to it's negative portrayal when you compare it to those who don't believe in it as it polarizes and detracts those who don't call themselves "feminists" to your cause towards gender equality, and is downright paradoxical to compare those blatantly believe in such equality to those who don't believe in it. So stop it.

Ugh I fucking knew someone would take it this way.  Key words:  "is like the same (yet opposite, of course)".  I am simply talking semantics here and used the opposite thing as an example.

 

Fine, I'll change my example, it is the same to me as someone saying "yes I am a brightly coloured rubber sac, filled with air and then sealed at the neck, used as a children's toy or decoration... but I'm not a balloon."

 

You say you don't know half of these branches of feminism? Well you should be aware that the issue isn't as black and white over what someone chooses to believe in or identify themselves as. To put it simply, you are either for equality, against it, or completely indifferent to it; you shouldn't give a rat's ass whether someone chooses whether or not to call themselves a feminist. You should be giving a rat's ass towards those that are blatantly being sexist and discriminatory between the two genders irrespective of what they call themselves. But such a thing is rarely that simple when even feminists themselves can disagree with each other over what counts as sexist, hence why these many branches exist.

I've never cared whether you call yourself a feminist.  It is not my goal from this argument to get you all to say "alright Jez you were right I am a feminist", I am simply saying what my logic is for calling myself a feminist is.  If anything I'm just getting annoyed over the way people are abandoning the word because some extremists ruined it.  It's as sad as people who are afraid to admit they're Muslim because of the stigma against extremist terrorists.  It shouldn't be that way.

 

Word definitions are one of the very few things where it is completely accurate to say that the facts are decided entirely by whatever the hell people commonly perceive them to be.

Then people need to start thinking for themselves more instead of accepting the negativity of extremists.

Edited August 12, 2013 by JezMM

[Solkia]

I've never cared whether you call yourself a feminist.  It is not my goal from this argument to get you all to say "alright Jez you were right I am a feminist", I am simply saying what my logic is for calling myself a feminist is.  If anything I'm just getting annoyed over the way people are abandoning the word because some extremists ruined it.  It's as sad as people who are afraid to admit they're Muslim because of the stigma against extremist terrorists.  It shouldn't be that way.

 

 

 

 This is not even remotely the same thing. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, no...JezMM has a point as far as the Muslim angle goes. 

Ugh I fucking knew someone would take it this way.  Key words:  "is like the same (yet opposite, of course)".  I am simply talking semantics here and used the opposite thing as an example.

Would probably help that, if you knew that, then you would try to word it in away that someone wouldn't take your example as offensive. Because comparing something as like the same as what it's opposite is probably leads people to think your comparing them as such.

Fine, I'll change my example, it is the same to me as someone saying "yes I am a brightly coloured rubber sac, filled with air and then sealed at the neck, used as a children's toy or decoration... but I'm not a balloon."

A rubber ball then?

 

I've never cared whether you call yourself a feminist.  It is not my goal from this argument to get you all to say "alright Jez you were right I am a feminist", I am simply saying what my logic is for calling myself a feminist is.  If anything I'm just getting annoyed over the way people are abandoning the word because some extremists ruined it.  It's as sad as people who are afraid to admit they're Muslim because of the stigma against extremist terrorists.  It shouldn't be that way.

It's more than just people abandoning it because of extremism, sometimes people don't agree with the other factions or even the whole thing and divorce themselves of it. Sometimes it might be because, while it may not be extremist, it's being one-sided and not going anywhere or those within it refuse to adapt to the changing times.

 

Hell, people are abandoning religion for the same reasons.

Edited August 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Carbo]

I hate this insistence that "being for equal rights means you're a feminist". That just implies that there's no dividing line between it and Egalitarianism which, in my humble opinion, is a far less patronizing "movement" in it's most basic form.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I hate this insistence that "being for equal rights means you're a feminist". That just implies that there's no dividing line between it and Egalitarianism which, in my humble opinion, is a far less patronizing "movement" in it's most basic form.

Well there's that and it also ignores the different schools of thought of feminism, and it's people in said schools, some of which aren't for equal rights.

 

Though I'd say that Egalitarianism blends elements of Feminism as far as actual equality goes, which the implication kinda has somewhat of a point.

Edited August 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[JezMM]

This is not even remotely the same thing.

 

I just said it is as sad as, not that it is the same thing.  And of course, the fact that it is as sad as that is simply my opinion on it. To me Feminism is supposed to be a very positive word and I do not like that it's been stripped of it's positive core values.

 

Would probably help that, if you knew that, then you would try to word it in away that someone wouldn't take your example that as offensive. Because comparing something as like the same as what it's opposite is probably leads people to think your

I just genuinely didn't think people would read that far into it. Was just an example.

 

A rubber ball then?

 

8I

 

It's more than just people abandoning it because of extremism, sometimes people don't agree with the other factions or even the whole thing and divorce themselves of it. Sometimes it might be because, while it may not be extremist, it's being one-sided and not going anywhere or those within it refuse to adapt to the changing times.

 

Hell, people are abandoning religion for the same reasons.

Now there is some understandably put reasoning for me.

 

I hate this insistence that "being for equal rights means you're a feminist". That just implies that there's no dividing line between it and Egalitarianism which, in my humble opinion, is a far less patronizing "movement" in it's most basic form.

I guess the way I have been exposed to feminism has always been in the context where the positive parts are praised and the negative parts are not seen as the norm. But looking up Egalitarianism does sound a lot more unflappable, and it does pretty much include my idea of what feminism is within it, as well as covering race, sexuality, etc etc. Once I've learned how to spell it I am totally identifying as that lol.

Edited August 12, 2013 by JezMM