"Sonic Dissected" Dissected: (LEGO) Sonic Dimensions As You Truly Imagined It

[The Deleter]

Everyone?

Spoke to soon. *shrugs*

 

Still, is it really necessary to hound a person with the same message repeatedly? I'm pretty sure she would have replied the second time if she was willing to oblige.

 

Even if it was, the Zeti aren't the same fundamental "thing" as Sonic and the rest. They look different because they are different, and that's not a bad thing or a betrayal of the series' design standards. You wouldn't say that Eggman is out of place because he's not 3 feet tall, furry, and with big bright eyes, because he's a human, not a Sonic-anthro. Likewise the Zeti are Zeti, not Sonic-anthros.

I'm not saying there isn't any such thing as "too far off", but not following Sonic's proportions and constructions to a T does not constitute "too far off".

And hell, no one question's Vector's place in the series, and he's a Sonic-anthro that's way off the "standard" body template.

That's somewhat true, but even if they are still a different "thing" compared to the common anthro or human, I still think that there are some set design principles that shouldn't be abandoned for any character. Case in point, Zomom's and Zor's anime lips.

 

 

No Sonic character has ever before had these types of lips, and to replace the standard muzzle design for these is just... ugh. It's just a very different design philosophy compared to how the series used to handle it, and personally, I don't see how it fits into the established style whatsoever. I'm fine with different builds and features, but this is really pushing it.

 

 

And dude, Vector's design is my all-time favorite. Ain't no one gonna diss him while I'm around. Plus, he pulled off the muzzle design with his natural mug.

 

 

Gotta give him props for that.

[Ash Cloud]

That's what Roger explained in his new dissected. Elise and Maria aren't important characters on their own but they are important to demonstrate the main character's ''humanity'' or emotionnal investement. And that honestly worked especially with Maria. People became involved with Shadow's past. No wonder why back in the '2000s so many topics were about this.

Yes, I agree. It definitely worked well with Shadow and Maria. But with Elise, I'm sort of missing the "humanity". Roger stated in one of his prior videos (forget which, I think it was the last one), that Elise came off as somewhat selfish, which I can see. I mean, she tried to commit suicide, and while I understand she wanted to get away from Eggman and didn't realize that Iblis was contained inside her, suicide is a pretty selfish act in itself since you only think of yourself and not the people who still care for you. She's the Princess of Soleanna, and she was about to leave her country princess-less and unleash Iblis' wrath upon her people. That's far from being "humane" in my book. 

[Diogenes]

That's somewhat true, but even if they are still a different "thing" compared to the common anthro or human, I still think that there are some set design principles that shouldn't be abandoned for any character. Case in point, Zomom's and Zor's anime lips.

 *snip*

No Sonic character has ever before had these types of lips, and to replace the standard muzzle design for these is just... ugh. It's just a very different design philosophy compared to how the series used to handle it, and personally, I don't see how it fits into the established style whatsoever. I'm fine with different builds and features, but this is really pushing it.

So, you don't like the lips. That's ok! You don't have to like the lips. But not liking the lips doesn't mean they don't fit. That no previous character has had them doesn't mean they don't fit. And muzzle muzzle muzzle doesn't mean they don't fit because animals have muzzles, and the Zeti are, again, not animals.

e: also about the only difference between Zomom's lips and Vector's muzzle is that Vector has nostrils on his.

[GuardianCaper]

I've watched these dissected videos for a few months now and he makes good points in his videos and one of the things and if you're a Sonic fan from the 90's and don't want it to envolve past the genesis titles then yeah that is a elist jerk.

[The Deleter]

So, you don't like the lips. That's ok! You don't have to like the lips. But not liking the lips doesn't mean they don't fit. That no previous character has had them doesn't mean they don't fit. And muzzle muzzle muzzle doesn't mean they don't fit because animals have muzzles, and the Zeti are, again, not animals.

e: also about the only difference between Zomom's lips and Vector's muzzle is that Vector has nostrils on his.

I'm not getting where the hostility is coming from.

 

If you want something more than that, though, I can state a bunch of other reasons why they don't fit the established style.

 

They have human hair

They don't wear gloves or shoes

The female doesn't wear any clothes

They have external eyebrows

They're from the same species, yet have no consistancy between them other than horns, going with basic cartoon designs rather than logic

 

There. Go ahead and tear that apart, if you want. I'm done.

[100Rings]

Yes, I agree. It definitely worked well with Shadow and Maria. But with Elise, I'm sort of missing the "humanity". Roger stated in one of his prior videos (forget which, I think it was the last one), that Elise came off as somewhat selfish, which I can see. I mean, she tried to commit suicide, and while I understand she wanted to get away from Eggman and didn't realize that Iblis was contained inside her, suicide is a pretty selfish act in itself since you only think of yourself and not the people who still care for you. She's the Princess of Soleanna, and she was about to leave her country princess-less and unleash Iblis' wrath upon her people. That's far from being "humane" in my book. 

huh....you are the only other person I have encountered in or outside of the internet, that can see suicide is a selfish act in itself *applauds* bravo.....

 

But yes....I wish SEGA would expand on the human characters more as well...I have a HOST of ideas for the humans and the role they can play (i'm always full of ideas...lol) If Elise had a childhood, some humorous moments, life goals, a few friends she had to part ways with, and PERHAPS a love interest that is NOT Sonic....she wouldn't have been half bad I say

[Ash Cloud]

huh....you are the only other person I have encountered in or outside of the internet, that can see suicide is a selfish act in itself *applauds* bravo.....

 

But yes....I wish SEGA would expand on the human characters more as well...I have a HOST of ideas for the humans and the role they can play (i'm always full of ideas...lol) If Elise had a childhood, some humorous moments, life goals, a few friends she had to part ways with, and PERHAPS a love interest that is NOT Sonic....she wouldn't have been half bad I say

Yes, I'd like to see Sega expand on the humans as well...as long as they're well written and either kept in the background or act as an extension of the characters. I don't want them to steal the spotlight, like Chris did in Sonic X. But I think humans can add to the story if they're well written....or they can take away from the story if they're not. In fact, Roger did a comparison between the humans from Unleashed versus the humans from SA2, which I agree with. In Unleashed, the humans fail to react to the catastrophe of the world splitting apart, which took away from what should have been a very serious situation. In SA2, the humans actually reacted to Eggman's threats, which added seriousness and weight to the threats. The humans can be great story props if they're used properly.

[Diogenes]

I'm not getting where the hostility is coming from.

...what hostility?

If you want something more than that, though, I can state a bunch of other reasons why they don't fit the established style.

And they're basically all an attempt to ram them into a very narrow Sonic-shaped hole, except for:

They're from the same species, yet have no consistancy between them other than horns, going with basic cartoon designs rather than logic

The horns, the yellow "whites" of their eyes, the two-toed feet, the black lower body...also this series is fully capable of supporting cats as different as Big and Blaze, so I don't see why a bunch of made-up demons need to have identical bodies.

[100Rings]

Yes, I'd like to see Sega expand on the humans as well...as long as they're well written and either kept in the background or act as an extension of the characters. I don't want them to steal the spotlight, like Chris did in Sonic X. But I think humans can add to the story if they're well written....or they can take away from the story if they're not. In fact, Roger did a comparison between the humans from Unleashed versus the humans from SA2, which I agree with. In Unleashed, the humans fail to react to the catastrophe of the world splitting apart, which took away from what should have been a very serious situation. In SA2, the humans actually reacted to Eggman's threats, which added seriousness and weight to the threats. The humans can be great story props if they're used properly.

Again a funny thing with me and Unleashed....I have no problem with a light hearted Sonic tale...just tond;t make it so light the stakes fall flat in their faces and make the game essentially a comedy routine.the opening of Unleashed is so spectacular and graphically stunning it really gets me hyped for the game...but all I have to look forward too are scenes with a bunch of walking, talking, food jokes, eggman fails and blips of Tails and Amy...and some pickle guy, Nothing really happens till the end where the excitement picks back up with the final battle for Dark Gaia. That was really exciting I will admit. But I would have made it so that some areas on earth were completely unaffected by the blast while some other areas were completely ravaged and some of the towns people have lost hope and are wishing for death to claim...that type of thing. Then Sonic saves them and gives them hope that the world will be ok. It keeps the game exciting and doesn't make it particularly intense game...just a light Sonic title you can jump into. that would have been a much better approach I say. Anything to kill off those boring middle cutscenes!

[Diogenes]

But I would have made it so that some areas on earth were completely unaffected by the blast while some other areas were completely ravaged and some of the towns people have lost hope and are wishing for death to claim...that type of thing.

Sonic games! Talking cartoon animals! Hammy mad scientist! People wishing for death!

Doesn't flow too well, I think.

[Ash Cloud]

Again a funny thing with me and Unleashed....I have no problem with a light hearted Sonic tale...just tond;t make it so light the stakes fall flat in their faces and make the game essentially a comedy routine.the opening of Unleashed is so spectacular and graphically stunning it really gets me hyped for the game...but all I have to look forward too are scenes with a bunch of walking, talking, food jokes, eggman fails and blips of Tails and Amy...and some pickle guy, Nothing really happens till the end where the excitement picks back up with the final battle for Dark Gaia. That was really exciting I will admit. But I would have made it so that some areas on earth were completely unaffected by the blast while some other areas were completely ravaged and some of the towns people have lost hope and are wishing for death to claim...that type of thing. Then Sonic saves them and gives them hope that the world will be ok. It keeps the game exciting and doesn't make it particularly intense game...just a light Sonic title you can jump into. that would have been a much better approach I say. Anything to kill off those boring middle cutscenes!

Wishing for death? I'm not sure I would call a story with people wishing for death "light", lol.

But I still see what you mean. Just making the humans aware of their situation and having them react in despair gives Sonic the chance to bring them hope, which better puts him in a hero role. The cutscenes would've been much better, and it would actually add a little drama to the story without anything major. 

 

[Kiah]

Okay, I'm not sure how this whole derailment occurred, but it needs to stop, and stop now.

Double A, 100 Rings, and Ash Cloud, this topic is not your personal chat room, Skype chat or whatever you want to call it. Have your conversations via PM, Skype or somewhere else and not in this thread as all it is doing is derailing the topic, especially with you getting other members caught up in it. If you are going to participate in this thread, do so without deliberately trying to cause a rise out of people because they disagree with you and keep it on topic.

As for everyone else, I'm going to ask you to get back on topic and stop taking jabs at one another. Too many of them have occurred in the past few pages among you all for me to bring them all up so I am just going to tell you all on a general basis to continue the discussion in a respectful manner from now on and keep the discussion from veering off-topic as well.

[100Rings]

Wishing for death? I'm not sure I would call a story with people wishing for death "light", lol.

But I still see what you mean. Just making the humans aware of their situation and having them react in despair gives Sonic the chance to bring them hope, which better puts him in a hero role. The cutscenes would've been much better, and it would actually add a little drama to the story without anything major. 

 

heh yeah you get the idea. Just the general idea that Eggman's decision indeed had an impact on the people of earth. The "dark" parts wouldn't last for long since Unleashed is by nature a light game. Not every single Sonic game needs ot have a pronounced dark tone.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

... So. About that whole "Deadly Six's designs making them 'bootleg Sonic characters'" talk. How does this apply to them versus, say, Biolizard, the Black Arms, Iblis or Solaris? No, seriously, I'm curious to see how does this apply exclusively to the Zeti.

It really doesn't. Nor should it, actually.

 

I can't say I'm keen on seeing the Zeti again if they're going to continue to have stereotypical characterization in general, but there's nothing about their designs that make them any worse than anything before them. This doesn't even extend to characters either, we have the more practical and grounded mech designs of SA2, aliens like the Wisps, Godzilla looking creatures like Chaos, Dark Gaia and Iblis, humans of different styles like Elise, Pickle, and Merlina/Shahra, and all sorts of different designs that go all over the place yet are still recognizable as belonging to Sonic, even if the fandom sees differently. The whole damn Sonic universe is all over the place, so saying the Zeti look like "bootleg Sonic characters" or otherwise don't fit is a massive and hypocritical double standard and there really is no justification towards entertaining that belief.

 

Now their characterization is another matter. Quite frankly, it might come of as the same lack of depth we've gotten in the past such as the recurring, and neglected, cast. Not that this is absolute, but we've been having inconsistent depth in the writing, which tends to affect a lot of things. To these people, they come off more like Black Doom in character that, while far more zany by comparison, fall short as to having more weight to them as they're portrayed rather stereotypically, to which Roger notes some better ways to go about with their character to give them more depth and make them less stereotypical.

[TearForFear]

I want to go back to my last statement.

 

I didn't criticized Roger himself, but the fact that he sees Sonic in Lost World as an a**hole and everything that comes out from the hedgehog's mouth is an insult. Which is not.

 

If you apply this example in real life, of course I will be pissed at someone who randomly pops up and tells me to go on a diet.

But in this context, Sonic is dealing with Eggman's enchmen of the day (he was introduced to them earlier in the game), he knows they're after him to kill him, so he treats them as villains and of course he goes approaching them like "I'm not afraid of you".

So, Sonic sees this fat blob who does nothing but eating a sandwich the size of a train, of course the first thing that comes to mind is his obesity.
But Sonic doesn't throws insults and puns about his obesity, he gives him advices. In a way that sounds like he's a jerk, but he's trying to be helpful.

I repeat, if you put Sonic "mascot with an attitude" in real life, of course he'll forever be in the wrong.

But in the context of the game Sonic is acting like he should act.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Again, I ask: what's so "un-Sonic" about the Deadly Six's designs that's not as blatant with, say, Biolizard, the Black Arms, Iblis or Solaris?

 

I think we've clearly established that Double A and Co. live on another plane of reality, and find mortal questions beneath them. Either that or really persistent random blackouts. Both are strong possibilities.

Hrmmm, makes we wonder about the supposed majority that is Roger's following supporters. Though best, not to make any assumptions yet, and based on just these three, or four people anyway.

Don't forget it was loved for being the anti-06 of the series

Oh great, more baseless assumptions on why people were attracted to a game, trying to de-merit it and its quality. Seriously? Can you people for once, actually back up these random suggestions?

[zlsuperluigi]

Statements such as 'I couldn't sit through any of them all the way' are irrelevent to the discussion of critiquing his points.

but sometimes he's just trying to be funny, and as such he's going to exaggerate. That original list of lessons learned Sonic Lost World was hilarious. It so ironic for someone to complain about him being serious then complain he has bad points since that person is taking him too literally and seriously.

Yeah, on the surface, the series is technically about Sonic, but past that it teaches very broad and widely applicable principles. Why overpowered characters are boring, the inner working of story telling and comedy, we even get a thorough segment on level design.

Seriously I've learned and have been able to apply what he talks about to many different areas. He establishes a lot of rules and common practices, and it really helps me analyze other shows, movies and games by giving my tools to work with. 

One comment I'll make though, is that I've observed that there are people who do enjoy exposition and details, myself included. It's just that it has to be interesting and establish some sort of rules for the world. He is right to say it should be exciting, efficienctly say, and well spaced out through the story. But I've talked to people who loved Birth by Sleep, and Dream Drop Distance, for all the exposition and details it had, again myself included. Although at least for me, I need the first game I play of a series, to have a very interesting beginning that gets me hooked and emotionally invested. Without that the exposition is painful, but with it, it's a joy and pure delight.

No hate or insults, please. I'm only interested in rational discussion, thank you.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Statements such as 'I couldn't sit through any of them all the way' are irrelevent to the discussion of critiquing his points.

No hate or insults, please. I'm only interested in rational discussion, thank you.

 

Can I just ask... because this is getting ridiculous. If people are going to get their friends or dare I suggest Roger himself stops trying to get his fans to join and back them up, are people actually going to focus on some of the criticism thrown at his points and not just constantly harp on about "Oh how dare you mock his voice/videos" 

 

Why are all of Rogers fans constantly harping on about this one comment and totally ignoring every other bit of criticism thrown at his points and arguments?

 

The way some people are going on about this including Roger's comments himself, anyone would think this is just a 'we hate roger' topic, yet pretty much the entirety of it has been really good criticism against his points with one or two comments at the 'I don't like his voice' remark.

[Ash Cloud]

Statements such as 'I couldn't sit through any of them all the way' are irrelevent to the discussion of critiquing his points.

but sometimes he's just trying to be funny, and as such he's going to exaggerate. That original list of lessons learned Sonic Lost World was hilarious. It so ironic for someone to complain about him being serious then complain he has bad points since that person is taking him too literally and seriously.

Yeah, on the surface, the series is technically about Sonic, but past that it teaches very broad and widely applicable principles. Why overpowered characters are boring, the inner working of story telling and comedy, we even get a thorough segment on level design.

Seriously I've learned and have been able to apply what he talks about to many different areas. He establishes a lot of rules and common practices, and it really helps me analyze other shows, movies and games by giving my tools to work with. 

One comment I'll make though, is that I've observed that there are people who do enjoy exposition and details, myself included. It's just that it has to be interesting and establish some sort of rules for the world. He is right to say it should be exciting, efficienctly say, and well spaced out through the story. But I've talked to people who loved Birth by Sleep, and Dream Drop Distance, for all the exposition and details it had, again myself included. Although at least for me, I need the first game I play of a series, to have a very interesting beginning that gets me hooked and emotionally invested. Without that the exposition is painful, but with it, it's a joy and pure delight.

No hate or insults, please. I'm only interested in rational discussion, thank you.

I find this series very eye-opening for the reasons in bold. Many of the topics in the Sonic Dissected series can be applied to many other stories/video games. I feel like I better understand how and why certain things do and don't work with writing.

As for exposition, I may have to take Roger's side. Exposition is great for describing the setting and explaining events that happen or have happened in the story, but I prefer to keep exposition at a minimum. Like in the Sonic Colors example, where Sonic and Tails explain how they took the elevator up to the theme park. I would have preferred to see them take the elevator. I find it is more entertaining to watch events unfold instead of listening to an explanation of what happened.

But with the examples you listed, I've never seen or heard of them so I can't really comment. However, if you say that exposition works well with these examples then perhaps I can give them a try and see how a great amount of exposition can work in a story.

As for your last statement, good luck with that. Some people have been jabbing at and making generalizations about others with interests different from theirs and then wonder why others refuse to reply to them. 

[Nepenthe]

As for your last statement, good luck with that. Some people have been jabbing at and making generalizations about others with interests different from theirs and then wonder why others refuse to reply to them. 

 

Good to have confirmation you haven't been reading the thread all that well, especially since a moderator just came in here and told you and everyone else to cut it out and respond to the topic in kind. This thread is a discussion intended to dissect Roger's videos. That means criticism is going to be thrown his way because not everyone will agree with him. And no, criticism is not a personal attack that begs for retaliatory white knighting and passive-aggressive bullshit.

 

Everyone needs to get back on track and discuss the videos, as well as the logic of the criticism and praise of the videos therein, instead of using this thread to start forming little factions, purposefully ignoring others, and acting like shitheels. Anymore of this from either side will ultimately just warrant a full-blown lock. We should be able to discuss this with some modicum of maturity.

[TearForFear]

Like in the Sonic Colors example, where Sonic and Tails explain how they took the elevator up to the theme park. I would have preferred to see them take the elevator. I find it is more entertaining to watch events unfold instead of listening to an explanation of what happened.

 

 

What are you talking about? The moment S&T are on the elevator is clearly shown.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

 

What are you talking about? The moment S&T are on the elevator is clearly shown.

I think he meant for Sonic and Tails to do it without it being a flashback.

[Diogenes]

What difference would there be, though? Riding the elevator is pretty trivial; it's only worth noting because they come back to it while escaping the park. I think the game does better by getting the characters into the park and the player into a level immediately, rather than the game opening with them riding an elevator.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Indeed, the scene with the elevator is explicitly shown one way or another.

[DBZHedgy]

What difference would there be, though? Riding the elevator is pretty trivial; it's only worth noting because they come back to it while escaping the park. I think the game does better by getting the characters into the park and the player into a level immediately, rather than the game opening with them riding an elevator.

I think it was just another attempt at making the talking scenes that come up way too often to be more interesting. Other than this cutscene and the cutscene where Tails is Mind-Controlled, there isn't really anything going on. Except you know.... them talking...