NPD: Sonic Lost World LTD on Wii U and 3DS leaked

[The Kid]

Project Diva and Kingdom Hearts have both been exclusive to Playstation for years, though. In the case of Kingdom Hearts, the only games that haven't been on Sony hardware are spin-offs. I'd understand if you were responding to someone's complaints about Ace Attorney not being on the Vita, but that's not really the case here.

 

Dream Drop Distance wasn't really a spin-off. And honestly there are the same number of games on Nintendo platforms as there are on Sony platforms so you can't discount that.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Last I checked, Chain of Memories was certainly NOT a spin-off. And 358/2 Days doesn't really scream spin-off either so much as it does, preqeul/midquel.

[Wraith]

Even if they're spinoffs the only game that doesn't have story significance is RE:coded.   

[SuperLink]

With KH it's very hard to say what's spinoff and what isn't haha, people usually assume the numbered ones are the only important ones but COM and 3D at least are essential to the plot.

 

I personally consider KHX[chi] to be the only spinoff.

[Wraith]

pfft KHX(chi) is confirmed to have the ingredients to the sandwich Sora will eat in KH3 in it's super secret ending silly. 

 

 

 

Anyways yeah basically with Kingdom Hearts if you don't play a game you probably missed SOMETHING, and they're spread across 5 or 6 different systems as of now?  

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

I called you selfish for wanting a game to fail just because you're admittedly too poor/too disinterested/too whatever towards the console it's on to buy it. You trying to "represent" other people who may be in your same situation doesn't make the sentiment you've stated any less selfish either.

I am getting a Wii U this year, so let me clear that out before you go on saying "I am too poor". But yes, right now I don't have one and so do many others. And I would like to play this game. And again, I am sure I am not the only one. Besides I am NOT just talking about Lost World here, because I can overlook LW easily. I am talking about the future of the franchise. If LW was a major success, don't kid yourself that Sega would think this exclusivity deal is the best thing in years. And that would push them even more to just making Sonic games for Nintendo. Nintendo fans celebrate, while others miss out. If LW fails, then it will GIVE Sega a rethink. It can even force them to rethink. No more long length exclusivity deals. If it was Sony or MS and anyone here pointed this out, I would have kudos them. In fact, what would happen to this fan base if Sega finishes their deal with Nintendo, then signs a 10 year with Sony. Would that be a good idea for us fans? Me hoping this game would fail isn't IMO a bad thing if you are not shortsighted. Sega will no question, not rethink if LW was a success. This is business. This is Sega, who is trying to squeeze money with IAPs on mobile apps for goodness sake. So I don't see how I'm selfish. Now Nintendo fans having Sonic games to themselves and loving the way it's going? THAT'S selfish. EDIT: Actually what do you WANT me to think? That I hope LW became a success and make the whole exclusive situation worse?!

[Sami]

Coming from someone who plays and enjoys Mario a lot, Lost World doesn't actually play much like it. I mean aesthetic wise I can see where people are going for with that argument but there is truly something trying to be it's own thing here and comparing it to Mario almost seems like undermining the actual GOOD things this game tried. 

 

I dunno, it looks kinda Marioish but it sure didn't feel like Mario when I was playing it. Going balls to the wall crazy and trying something new is just as ambitious as Unleashed was doing but in a different way. I can understand feeling like they phoned it in if you were expecting something like Unleashed but....y'know, to me, ambition generally means having the balls to shake it up a bit.

 

That certainly surprises me. I look at this game's new "features" and see a run button (Mario), gravity mechanics (Mario), tubular level design (Mario), and slower platforming (Mario). 

 

I mean, if despite those changes it still doesn't play like Mario, then I'll take your word for it. However, it's still extremely clear just from looking at the first trailer what their "inspiration" was and what they based the core design of the game on.

 

Shaking it up is great. Really. I agree with you there. But from the moment the game was announced I was just baffled as to why it looks so much like a bad Mario clone rather than something that fits Sonic. Obviously this is a matter of opinion as we all have different opinions on what Sonic should be, but the fact that this game has fractured the fanbase so harshly is rather telling in my opinion. 

 

 

There are multiple Miku games on 3DS too, plus Sonic has always had Nintendo exclusive phases and entire series (Advance/Rush) that were exclusive, the comparison is legit.

 

Also, I wouldn't complain if AA was on Vita, I'm far more worred about Capcom killing it than anything that petty.

 

That's not what I mean, haha. I own both a Vita and a 3DS, but I vastly prefer the Vita as far as tech goes. It's just a better machine in my opinion and I'd prefer to play all third party games on that rather than the 3DS. 

 

That being said, complaining about a game that's historically been exclusive to Nintendo handhelds since it was made over a decade ago continuing to be exclusive to Nintendo handhelds is just silly. Complaining about AA5 being a 3DS exclusive is silly. Complaining about Sakurai's newest game being to a Nintendo console is silly. Complaining about the next Gears of War being exclusive to Xbox One would be silly, and so on.

 

About the Miku games... eh, that's actually different haha. Project Diva and every subsequent game under that name (the original, Diva 2nd, Diva Extend, and Diva f) have all been exclusive to the PSP, PS3, and Vita. Project Mirai is the one that's exclusive to the 3DS, and that one plays radically differently and has an art style very distinct from the Diva games.

 

Just look at them - 

 

 

 

 

Dream Drop Distance wasn't really a spin-off. And honestly there are the same number of games on Nintendo platforms as there are on Sony platforms so you can't discount that.

 

Oh, right. Dream Drop Distance. I actually forgot about that one. Fair enough for that game, yeah.

 

But come on. The same number of games? That's the argument here? Just look at the titles.

 

Exclusive to (or available on) Playstation - Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts II, Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep, Re:Chain of Memories, HD 1.5 and 2.5, and Kingdom Hearts III.

 

Exclusive to (or available on) Nintendo - Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories, 358/2 Days, Re:Coded, and Dream Drop Distance.

 

Three of the four Nintendo games actually have any degree of plot significance. One of them got a remake on Playstation, and another is available in movie form on Playstation.

 

The point here is that not only was the entire franchise founded exclusively on Playstation and holds the biggest number of fans on the Playstation, but also that while an owner of only Playstation consoles can experience almost everything the mainline franchise has to offer (bar the gameplay in Days, and 3D in its entirety), Nintendo owners didn't get the first two games or Birth By Sleep in any form, arguably the most important games in the series. I can understand being upset at not getting the next big game in the series, but when there's a legitimate development reason for the lack of a port (the Wii U not being compatible with the tools they're building the game with), is it really all that surprising when the only games made available on Nintendo in the first place pale in importance when compared to the Playstation exclusive ones?

 

I'm digressing a lot here, but what I'm trying to say is that I don't believe those comparisons are particularly fair. When every mainline Sonic game in the past (bar maybe Colors but even that was still at least slightly less of a "big game" than Unleashed and Generations) has been available on multiple platforms, I don't think expressing disappointment at sudden exclusivity is unreasonable.

 

Especially when the only good excuse for it was "but sales", and the game went on to underperform.

[Nepenthe]

I won't argue your point of putting people's livelihood at stake, as it truly is unfortunate that it might come to that. I agree on that account.

 

However, couldn't it be said that SEGA is the one at fault for putting them at risk in the first place? Me, Ming Ming, and anyone else who was alienated by this game's exclusivity and design don't want these people to be put at risk. We want to give them our money (I do, anyway); we just don't have the funds to spend hundreds of dollars on a console we don't want. 

 

All anyone on either side wants is to buy the games and enjoy them as we always have. Nobody wants Sonic Team to see layoffs, and nobody wants SEGA to suffer financially. However, one of the most important things to remember with any industry is that money talks. A product that makes money will see some sequel or continuation, while a product that doesn't won't. I personally am happy that the sales may discourage them from trying this again, though I do hope the game made a meager enough profit to break even and not put anyone at risk. I'm sure Ming Ming feels the same.

 

Sega's risk in making the decision to make Lost World a Wii U exclusive is irrelevant to the argument being made. I don't own a Wii U either, thus I am directly contributing to the statistics in this thread whether I wish to or not. However, my own personal frustration from not owning the console is not reason enough to conclude that Sega actually deserved to fail on any moral or ethical grounds. It's basically saying "Their audacity in not catering to me all the time means that they deserve to lose money."

 

As I said before, Sega doesn't owe everyone anything. You do not have the right to enjoy every single Sonic game. If a few are exclusive to a console, that's merely a choice everyone- the company and the public- has to deal with, because gaming is a luxury. You can either scrimp and save to buy the console and game, or you can not buy it and miss out, or you can find a friend with a Wii U and buy the game; whatever. There is nothing inherently wrong in a scenario where every single man, woman, child, fetus, and dog lacks access to a game due solely to its console exclusivity. But there is something wrong with this "I can't play it so fuck them" sentiment. It's practically entitlement personified.

[SuperLink]

The gravity mechanics are nothing like Mario's, in Mario they affect gameplay but in Sonic they're purely aesthetic and have no real purpose beyond /looking/ like Mario. As for run button, it's not weird for a game to have them but it was suggested for 3D Sonic many times. Infact SLW did it before any 3D Mario did.. (not counting sm64ds which had a run button because there was no analogue)

 

And I think it's silly to complain about Nintendo exclusive Sonics when Nintendo has been getting exclusive Sonics since before Sonic was on PS or XB at all. 8 Sonics at least are /still/ Nintendo exclusive not including SLW, SLW was nothing new.

[Sami]

 

Sega's risk in making the decision to make Lost World a Wii U exclusive is irrelevant to the argument being made. I don't own a Wii U either, thus I am directly contributing to the statistics in this thread whether I wish to or not. However, my own personal frustration from not owning the console is not reason enough to conclude that Sega actually deserved to fail on any moral or ethical grounds. It's basically saying "Their audacity in not catering to me all the time means that they deserve to lose money."

 

As I said before, Sega doesn't owe everyone anything. You do not have the right to enjoy every single Sonic game. If a few are exclusive to a console, that's merely a choice everyone- the company and the public- has to deal with, because gaming is a luxury. You can either scrimp and save to buy the console and game, or you can not buy it and miss out, or you can find a friend with a Wii U and buy the game; whatever. There is nothing inherently wrong in a scenario where every single man, woman, child, fetus, and dog lacks access to a game due solely to its console exclusivity. But there is something wrong with this "I can't play it so fuck them" sentiment. It's practically entitlement personified.

 

I understand your point and agree to some extent, but I do still believe that taking a franchise that has had consistently multiplatform mainline releases and suddenly making the only big game for several years exclusive to a nearly negligible amount of consumers with the only excuse for that exclusivity being "but we'll surely make more money this way" at least a bit ungrateful to the extremely dedicated fanbase that made them what they were in the first place. The most bothersome thing about it, to me, is that they didn't go to a new console because of extra power allowing greater creative freedom, but because of reasoning as simple as "you are not important to our success, they are. Therefore you will be ignored." 

 

I don't want SEGA to be financially hurt by the game's sales, or for anyone to lose their job, I just don't want it to happen again because yes, I do selfishly want to play these games (this doesn't apply to Lost World in particular for me as I'm not fond of the game anyway, but my point stands regardless). 

 

And yes, while I may not want anyone's living to be in jeopardy, I do admittedly feel a tinge of vindication in finding out that my money and support of this franchise actually does have some importance after having the contrary statement flaunted in my face for months on end by both company officials and fans.

 

Neither I nor Ming Ming (I admit I'm assuming on her part but considering she liked my last post I think she'd agree) want anyone to be punished for daring not to make a game available to us, but in an industry that is run purely on money I don't see how expressing some happiness that the cards have actually turned in our favor is out of line and petty. We want to play the next games in the series and now there's a good chance of that. Hooray. I honestly hope all there is to it, and I have to emphasize yet again that I really do understand your point when it comes to people's livelihoods and the status of gaming as a luxury.

 

I don't believe exclusivity is an inherently wrong thing, and I don't think morals or ethics have anything to do with it anyway. You won't see me complaining about a lack of third party ports to play on my Vita, as I'm well aware that porting games to a practically dead system isn't financially feasible. Likewise, I wouldn't be complaining about Kingdom Hearts III being unavailable on Wii U if I didn't have a PS4, as the reasoning for that is simply an exponentially larger install base as well as greater creative freedom being granted by vastly more powerful hardware. 

 

Personally I view Lost World's reason for exclusivity differently, as not only did it go exclusively to a console with a miniscule install base to begin with (so the "more financially feasible" reasoning doesn't really apply), but the PR couldn't have said any more blatantly that their reasoning was simply that the Sonic franchise didn't need the fans playing on other consoles to succeed and thus moved away from them for that reason alone. I'm not suggesting that whether or not that's a "good excuse" is factual in any degree, but I will say that I don't personally believe it to be. 

 

Anyway, in most other cases I would agree with you. My main issues with the game are that I absolutely hate the direction they took with it and that I don't think their reason for exclusivity was particularly justified, but you're right that they don't owe us anything just like we don't owe them. I'm merely relieved that the likelihood of the next game appealing to me and suiting my own particular interests are now substantially higher, not that someone is being punished in any way.

[Nepenthe]

Sonic's had exclusivity to some extent throughout his entire career even after Sega went out of the console business, and most decisions they've made concerning where he's ended up in many of these titles hasn't been entirely out of the goodness of their hearts. I mean, Sonic's very reason for even being created in the first place was to be a money-making vehicle to keep Sega alive and relevant. You deciding to construe what they've always done to varying degrees into a completely cynical context that you're unimportant simply because you cannot easily obtain one or two games is entirely on you. Fair enough though that you feel vindicated by the lack of success of this business endeavor under the context that it may lead to aesthetic changes that will appeal more to you (I'm the say way, although I'm highly doubtful they'll be switching gears, so let's bring on more cheerleading friends!) I feel this is much more reasonable thing to say because it's not at all hinging the success of a company's endeavors on anything, much less whether or not you can experience them. Such a justification just seems counterproductive to what little competition we have left in this industry and just spiteful in general. 

[Sami]

I'm perfectly fine with admitting that my view on their reasoning I just my own cyclical and biased perspective showing through, as that's really just how I felt about the whole mess. It was just such a radical departure from what I've wanted from this franchise for years, and though I'll admit a fair degree of bias in this regard, I couldn't help but feel a bit snubbed by their dismissal of such a large portion of their audience. I can only assume Ming Ming felt the same way. In any case, I'm happy we agree on the content of the game itself. Lost World is an extremely experimental game for Sonic Team, and from the moment it was revealed veered radically from the direction they would go in after Generations. Seeing as how it was made by Sonic Team's "B team" and doesn't have even half the visual fidelity or design complexity of Unleashed and Generations, I'd imagine the game didn't cost very much money to develop, and can only hope that this failure will lead to a product that more of us will enjoy. Fair?

[Nepenthe]

Fair enough, although as I said I'm not banking on future games' content being particularly more towards our fancy because I don't think they're going to throw away the Parkour just yet, but will perhaps refine it for a bigger and better Lost World 2 or whatever. Time well tell of course, but until I see something interesting I can't be arsed to be optimistic. xP

[Dizcrybe]

So it is ambitious for Sonic to copy Mario and not even do that well, yet it is a travesty and cloning when every damn shooter on the planet copies Call of Duty/Halo?

 

...Huh.

 

...when the hell did I say that? If you're gonna argue my point, at least use stuff I've actually said instead of pulling arguments from thin air and stuffing them into m mouth.

 

And yes, I do think it's ambitious to change the entire foundation of how Sonic works. Forgive me if I don't see it your way.

[Tani Coyote]

Whenever I ask people here on campus (who game) what they think of Sonic, it usually isn't "Sonic is too childish for me and I grew out of it" (which is what I'd typically expect). Instead, it tends to run the gamut of "Sonic was ruined by SEGA", or similar. One guy even ranted at me about how Shadow the Hedgehog ruined the entire series for him from that point on.

 

I think this is why SEGA has increasingly thrown its fanbase under the bus. It reasons that while we stuck around, most older gamers didn't, and so it's decided to instead focus on getting as many new gamers as possible. I see lots of kids playing Mario, but not that much Sonic - I think SEGA wants to get a part of that market. As they should, as those kids will likely be customers for longer than the adults.

 

Everyone's throwing around "Sonic is the most popular in Europe" but outside of some funny popularity contest from 2008 that didn't have a considerable amount of voters, is there any real evidence that points towards this claim? Can I get something substantial and actually important like sales figures?

 

I'm not trying to be a downer I'm just genuinely curious.

Seconding this request.

He is popular in Europe, I know that, but other than the UK preferring him over Mario and the SEGA brand as a whole seeming to have more strength over there, I'm not sure. The United States is a monolingual market worth 14 trillion dollars; Europe is worth 16 trillion but is multi-lingual and divided into dozens of countries, with all the baggage that carries. Even if he was more popular in Europe as a whole, it's not unreasonable that the various costs of doing business there can kind of cut into profits.

I think a great deal of the apparent popularity increase is simply that everyone is more concentrated over in Europe. It stands to reason that if all the fans are closer, they're going to be able to make themselves more visible on a regular basis.

[Blue Wisp]

Actually whoa-ho there, these are just US sales?

Could've sold more in Europe, who knows. 

[Jolt_TH]

To be totally honest although the game is fun to play it isn't exactly great, I haven't finished it yet but it's ok to play, glad I got it for cheaper rather than full GAME price.

After this exclusivity is over I'm not expecting to play many New Sonic games aside from the odd spinoff that they will release for the Wii U, they will probably go onto multiplat except Wii U as it's nowhere near the other two in terms of power and we will have an 06/Unleashed/Generations era again, possibly with another UnleasHeD/Unwiished game

[Charmander]

Everyone's throwing around "Sonic is the most popular in Europe" but outside of some funny popularity contest from 2008 that didn't have a considerable amount of voters, is there any real evidence that points towards this claim? Can I get something substantial and actually important like sales figures?

 

I'm not trying to be a downer I'm just genuinely curious.

 

 

Actually... I don't remember any sales either.

 

Odd. I had thought that point would be brought up and had kind of accepted that statement as fact in the past, but now that you mention it I'm not so sure either. I'm genuinely curious where this comes from as well now.

 

 

The belief that Sonic is a strong seller in Europe is half right. Sonic was historically a strong seller in the regions that had predominately purchased the SEGA Master System and SEGA Mega Drive meaning he was popular in the 90s in the United Kingdom, France, Portugal and Spain but less so in Germany which was one of the few spots that preferred the Super Nintendo.

 

To this day however I'm not sure how much of a strong seller Sonic is in any region outside of the United Kingdom as it is harder to track down data on those markets (Incidentally Portugal and Spain are very strong Sony territories at the moment and have higher sales for the Vita than the 3DS) however if we are to track down the past 3 years and see how the franchise has coped, I'd say it has done extremely well. Thanks to MCVUK's yearly top 100;

 

2011

28: Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games

63: Sonic Generations

96: Sonic Colours

 

2012

15: Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games

42: Sonic Generations

79: Sonic & Allstars Racing Transformed

 

2013

45: Sonic & Allstars Racing Transformed

72. Sonic Generations

87. Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games

 

The United Kingdom is the biggest territory for video games in Europe (However Germany may have usurped the UK as their market continues to expand) so Sonic does relatively well here, what does help a lot is that Sonic can stay in the charts of a few years before falling out of the top 100. Now if the game's appeared only for a year you would argue that Sonic is a pretty poor seller but thanks to the longevity the franchise is known for the games final total is always undoubtedly more than what SEGA reports in their fiscal reports. Sonic Generations and Sonic & Allstars Racing Transformed was at 1.85 million and 1.36 million at the end of March 2012 respectively so I have no doubt they managed to add a million or two to their current total. An interesting tad bit I should add, the best selling version of Sonic & Allstars Racing Transformed by the end of March 2012 was either the Playstation 3 or Xbox 360 version (I believe it's more likely the latter)

 

However simply because Sonic has sold well on Nintendo platforms in recent times does not mean he is more endeared to Nintendo fans. Sonic's primary audience is children and whichever console supports that demograph will enjoy the strongest selling console Sonic title. In the sixth generation it was the Playstation 2 which is why Sonic Heroes sold over 4 million, the seventh generation it was the Wii. However moving onto the eighth generation it will be harder to predict, simply because most parents have switched from buying their children dedicated handhelds/consoles and opt instead for tablets which is where Sonic enjoys the longest reach; 8 million downloads for Sonic Jump and 20 million for Sonic Dash (With an average of 1 million daily users) so I think there is no doubt the series is still popular, the poor sales for Lost World are more to do with the low software sales of the 3DS in one of the franchise's biggest regions and the global struggle the Wii U is facing to stay relevant.

 

So going forward I honestly doubt SEGA will be bothering with future exclusivity for Nintendo unless they are going to be paid handsomely for their services or if its a 3DS title (As evident from a new IP they are launching in Japan, with an anime and manga to boot, called Hero Bank)

 

SOURCES;

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/the-uk-2011-video-game-charts/090333

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/revealed-2012-s-uktop100/0109259

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/the-100-best-selling-boxed-games-of-2013/0126802

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/07/11/sonic-dash-passes-20-million-mark-sonic-jump-up-to-8-million/

[MamboCat]

I just want to point out that there is a world of difference between saying "I'm disappointed this game is exclusive, and I hope in future I will be able to purchase any new games." and saying "This sucks, I hope it fails! That will show 'em!" and then gloating when we see a glimpse of the sales figures.

 

Saying things like that just makes one look petulant, and this is not focussed at any one individual but for all the times I have seen such comments and though "ugh".

[Badnik Mechanic]

...But the 3DS is outselling the Vita by a large margin.

 

And Sonic is most popular in Europe.

 

The hell you mean it won't make a difference to the figures?

 

The Wii U is dead in Europe.

 

That's what "The hell" I mean by it won't make a difference. 

 

It's not going to make a difference because barely anyone in Europe owns the system. So if nobody in Europe owns the system, nobody is going to buy the game.

[SuperLink]

It's not going to make a difference because barely anyone in Europe owns the system. So if nobody in Europe owns the system, nobody is going to buy the game.

..the game was on 3DS too, the system where Generations performed strongest.

 

The Wii U version and system are irrelevant to this point.

 

If SLW didn't sell well on 3DS, I doubt it would sell well on anything.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

After this exclusivity is over I'm not expecting to play many New Sonic games aside from the odd spinoff that they will release for the Wii U, they will probably go onto multiplat except Wii U as it's nowhere near the other two in terms of power and we will have an 06/Unleashed/Generations era again, possibly with another UnleasHeD/Unwiished game

And then watch as people who are so against exclusivity suddenly change their position and not dispute exclusivity when it comes to the Nintendo Wii U.

[Your Vest Friend]

Well the 3DS version was deemed by word of mouth to be shit, in most cases. If it was released on PS3/360/whatever other main consoles, it'd be more comparable to the Wii U version which doesn't have as much of an air of dislike around it. 

[SuperLink]

Alien: Colonial Marines was one of the best selling games of 2013 in UK, I don't think hearing a game isn't too good is enough to put people off buying something popular. Generations 3DS had no shortage of criticism compared to the HD version, didn't stop people buying it.

 

More than that, I think the reason it didn't sell was because it has negligible market presence given the time of year it came out and the fact that its systems don't dominate shelf-space compared to the new heavily promoted systems.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Alien: Colonial Marines was one of the best selling games of 2013 in UK, I don't think hearing a game isn't too good is enough to put people off buying something popular.

Colonial Marines was priced at £10 1 week after it's release on PS3 & Xbox 360. That's one huge reason why that game sold as much as it did.

Same reason Black Knight and Sonic WiiLeashed sold as much as it did, super massive discounts one week after it's release.