Can character inclusions (besides Sonic) now work with SLW's gameplay?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd rather we not limit them to 3 categories like that...

[Kuzu]

There are so many characters, that I'd say its almost pointless for all of them to varying different gameplay styles.

 

Unless we're just going to limit ourselves to Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, with the possible additions being Amy and Shadow because I really don't think every single character should be playable because then things get bloated.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[azoo]

If this type of thing proves anything to me, its that if we bring multiple characters back then I'd rather we just cut it to Sonic, Tails and Knuckles or something in the beginning, ala S3K.

 

..Yes, I know, character seniority and all, but let's face it, their gameplay has already been established to fit within the confinements of a Sonic template. Plus, blue-orange-red color trifecta looks really nice beside each other, and the characters are iconic, you know how it is.

 

And no I don't think it should be "Speed, Flight and Power" categories. It'd be a bit less held in to a specific category than that.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Azookara

[Kuzu]

 

 

And no I don't think it should be "Speed, Flight and Power" categories. It'd be a bit less held in to a specific category than that.

 

I only said it under the impression that we are trying to account for every single supporting cast member, because I do not feel each and everyone one of them needs their own unique style just because of the sheer quantity of the cast.

[Indigo Rush]

I don't think we're trying to account for every cast member. It's not feasible to expect to come up with a unique gameplay formula for each character without risking either repetition or complete deviation. 

 

It is best to stick to the core cast for main-entry Sonic games, so when we talk about finding control methods for these guys, we shouldn't feel the need to include, say, the Chaotix or the Babylon Rogues. I'd even wager that there's no need to use Rouge or Omega. 

 

It's much easier to manage, say; Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Blaze and Silver and cap it at those characters, rather than include the entire friend squad. And even with those characters I listed, there's no need for more than 3 or 4 of them to show up in a single game. We don't want to pad things out too much. 

 

When you use less than 4 characters in one game, you have a greater ability to work on each character's differences without feeling the need to totally deviate their controls from your standard Sonic fare (as the Adventure games and 06 did), and it also avoids the "Heroes complex" where there are so many characters that it's necessary to group them off into 3 categories. No. None of that is needed.

 

Focusing on a handful of characters and developing them is what should be done. And before we focus on a handful, we need to establish how another character should even function aside from Sonic. Before we even think about adding three characters, we need to see how one can contrast and compliment Sonic alone. Having a game with Sonic and Tails or Sonic and Knuckles will do wonders. If the game does well, then it'll be easier to move outside of the "Solo-Sonica" habit with steady character and gameplay development. Next game, make it Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. After that, Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Shadow. Or maybe Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy. Or Sonic, Shadow, Blaze and Knuckles, etc.

 

Mix it up. But most importantly, focus on how you can contrast and compliment the core gameplay (Sonic) without totally copying it or totally deviating from it.

 

Having less characters to work with is a very important standard to keep if we want to see that happen. 

[Kuzu]

So to go off what Rush just said, let's start with the dynamic duo and the only character who even has a chance at being playable at this point, Tails.

 

Now how can we differentiate Tails from Sonic within the context of this style.

[VGamer]

I think we should actually go off Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, Amy, Rouge and Silver being the main cast, since in they were the ones featured in the "Character Select" page in that article published last week on this site. I think Sega wants them to be the main focus, so I think it would be more appropriate for us to focus on them as opposed to making up our own roster.

 

Sorry about that, on to Tails. I think most people have the same general idea as Tails if we're gonna make him playable at all. I won't speak for everyone else, but I will say what I think is best for him:

 

I think Tails should have the same speed as Sonic, but maybe a bit slower? Not too slow to the extent where you can tell he is slower, but maybe just a bit so that Sonic would always be the go-to guy for speed running, or faster stages and whatnot (to shave off that extra second or two from your time).

 

Another one that's obvious is that he should be able to fly, but I think they should take what they had in SA1 and tone it down a bit here. He shouldn't be going that fast in the air at all, since it's proven to completely break levels. Maybe slow him down a bit in the air, and add some weight to him too? I don't mean too much weight to where it's a chore to fly as Tails, but I felt in SA1 he felt too "light" when flying, if I can put it like that.

Tails would have the same general control as Sonic though, spin-dashing and the run button would be a given.

 

As for parkour, homing attack and the kick attack, I'll stand by what I said previously. Tails should have some sort of Tails swipe to where maybe it takes out the stronger enemies, but doesn't knock them into smaller ones like the kick attack? That would be cool.

 

I think that with the Lost World design, the homing attack could be replaced with rolling and jumping, like in SA1. Perhaps if you tap the kick/tails swipe button while running, he rolls into a ball and can take out the enemies that Sonic defeats with a homing attack?

 

Finally for parkour, I still think he should have it, but not to the extent to where he can wall run and spin-dash up walls like Sonic. The flying can handle that. It should also lead him to areas only he can get to, but that's level design talk and I don't think we're talking about that now (unless we are?). He should only have parkour so if you ever run into a tree with Tails, he'll still fly over it or whatever. If you run into a rock with him, he'll swerve around it, like Sonic. Again, nothing too fancy like jumping from wall to wall, but enough to keep the flow going.

Edited September 30, 2013 by TheVGamer

[Kuzu]

I think we should actually go off Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, Amy, Rouge and Silver being the main cast, since in they were the ones featured in the "Character Select" page in that article published last week on this site. I think Sega wants them to be the main focus, so I think it would be more appropriate for us to focus on them as opposed to making up our own roster.

 

Isn't that what you're doing right now when assuming who the main cast should be :\

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There are so many characters, that I'd say its almost pointless for all of them to varying different gameplay styles.

 

Unless we're just going to limit ourselves to Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, with the possible additions being Amy and Shadow because I really don't think every single character should be playable because then things get bloated.

 

I don't think we're trying to account for every cast member. It's not feasible to expect to come up with a unique gameplay formula for each character without risking either repetition or complete deviation. 

>=/

 

 

That game has over 100 freaking characters in it, all of which are categorized in at least one of six roles: Carry/Marksman, Tank, Assassin, Fighter, Support, Mage.  And despite the similarities they have in their role, with carries being the key targets assigned deal high damage to assassins assigned to kill enemies quickly to tanks assigned to protecting teammates, they all play differently from one another that no two champions in the same role are the exact (and I mean the exact) same. It even has a little girl who uses a pet for a weapon, akin to Cream the Rabbit (tho far darker) and she's one of 3 champions with that ability.

 

I even bet you can find any other champion to parallel a Sonic character. In fact, we can even play a game of "Find the Parallel" right now: name me a Sonic game character (one at a time, you can even throw in Fang if you want), and I'll find a LoL parallel that can match them. Who's game? Cuz I am. 

 

Yes, I know LoL is a MOBA game, and Sonic is a platformer, but it's meant to be a thinking exercise nonetheless: we have 16 Sonic characters to LoLs 100+, if it's possible for one game to achieve this level of variety, I don't think it's impossible for another to find it's own path to emulate similar results that benefit it. The main thing as far as characters go is that the basic control is the same as far as navigating and accessing abilities for the characters, while it's the abilities you give them that change the way the character differs from another. Translating that for Sonic as a platformer, while it might have it's own niggles to work out,  you want to be able to navigate the level in your own unique way based on the character you selected, essentially S3&K combined with Sonic Advance 1 on steroids. I doubt it's unfeasible to come up with a unique playstyle for each and every character.

 

And for those that are harder to work on, we might need to do a revamp of their abilities. Some characters like Sonic, Shadow, Tails, and Blaze are easier to work with. Others like Rouge, Silver, Omega, and Cream might have difficulties to implement, but I don't think it's impossible for them to make them work.

 

The real problem, I believe, is implementing too many of them at once. Now, honestly, I really don't give a rat's ass if there's 1 playable character or 10 of them, but considering that not every character can be easily implemented, the level design needing to be more complex the more characters you try to work with to accommodate their differences, and the fact that Sonic 06 tried this with poor success, I wouldn't take issue to limiting the playable cast to 5 at max.

 

But as far as balance goes regarding the number of playables, I think that's less of a problem than the level design that goes with them. While the point of LoL is to work as a team to kill enemy champions and destroy the enemy nexus, Sonic is about speedy platforming and navigating from the beginning to the end (and what counts as an "end" can be subjective if you want to retool things from scratch); so for us to keep speedy platforming, we can't allow any of the characters to go below a certain speed while giving them a unique way of navigating the level.

 

Now the fun part is conceptualizing this.

Edited September 30, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

...league of legends is a multiplayer game, it has to be unique to avoid repitition, Sonic is a platformer and more based around movement so once again, its not a necessity for every character to be unique.

 

 

And how is the six class setup of that game any different from the Speed, Flight, Power setup I explained? 

[Indigo Rush]

It's one way to say that it's possible in theory, and another thing entirely to attempt to create a style for each and every character on your own.

 

I've seriously rattled my brain over the possibility of making every character playable (even before Silver was around, for pete's sake!) and I can tell you that it is not feasible.

 

Not even necessarily from a gameplay mindset, but... like. Really. Take a step back and think about it.

 

You want every character (or nearly every character, let's be fair) to have their time in the spotlight, yah? And we don't want them to all appear all at once? Well, how does that work out, then?

 

Sonic & Vector's Electric Boogaloo? Sonic & Rouge's Greatest Heist? Sonic & Omega go to Sylvania Castle? Sonic & Big's Bogus Journey?!

 

There are some characters, no matter how well thought out they are, that are impossible to bill alongside Sonic. You could make a gameplay style for every character and you would still never find an opportunity to use even half of them! Even incorporating 4 at a time is a bit of a stretch to begin with.

 

See, even if you were to incorporate those other characters into their own spin-offs, (which at this point is the only hope for folks like Omega and the Chaotix at this point), there's no particular reason to even conform them to a Sonic-esque gameplay formula at all. Why even go through that trouble when some characters, as they were designed, do not have a speedy platforming mindset involved? You can make changes, but at some point in time you need to step back and think about how much your design changes makes sense. SEGA is terribly guilty of this.

 

Big in Sonic Heroes. Remember that.

 

My point is that designing a workable gameplay mechanic for over 15 characters is not going to see results. Are you proud of Cream the Rabbit's parkour mechanic?

 

Good luck selling "Sonic & Team Rose's Candy Adventure" to SEGA.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Nepenthe]

Your argument that every character needs to be billable for them to appear, or at least get a little gameplay stint, seems flawed under the pretense that the ones that aren't as popular have absolutely no existing connections to the ones that are. It's the same vein that allows Tails to accompany Sonic everywhere, even in games where his roles are pretty much meaningless such as in Unleashed and The Black Knight. Shadow, for example, is extremely billable next to Sonic due to his popularity, and by proxy Rouge and Omega can very well enter into the fray. Amy is a classic character so she gets easy dibs as well, and by proxy so can Cream.

 

If you're concerned for the less popular folks, you don't have to wrack your brain around how in the world you make a Sonic and Cream game work by mere design, because the fact is you don't even need to make a Sonic and Cream for her to get some just dues at least, yanno, once in her post-modern career. And this is especially true since even Cream of all characters has seen more Sonic-esque gameplay appearances more often than she's seen genre roulette anyway. In fact, I can't recall Cream ever being a genre roulette character in the first place (no- Heroes isn't genre roulette. It's a platformer, everyone in it platforms, stop saying it is genre roulette, what is wrong with you people?) The same goes for pretty much everyone else.

 

Frankly, I don't think the public would be critical that Omega isn't the bulky mess he was in Sonic 06 because that's more "true to his design," because most people don't really look at the Sonic series with any noticeable nuance anyway to find dissonance in this, much less would complain that he's actually a better character to play as.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Indigo Rush]

First off, Shadow was one of the characters I said that were easily billable. As controversial as the character is, he still has a strong following in the fanbase.

 

Cream the Rabbit? Big the Cat? Not so much.

 

I see what you're getting at, but I didn't say 'just gameplay,' I am also talking about what will be marketable to begin with. My usage of Cream wasn't due to her being a "genre-roulette" character, but due to her overall unpopularity.

 

Again, I don't care how well the characters fit into the gameplay or story, a game where Cream the Rabbit or Big the Cat is a playable top billing character will not jive. 

 

Not for a long time, anyway. Ya gotta ease into it, and even then it's under the presupposition that every character needs to be playable to begin with. 

 

This is why I suggested spin-offs in the first place. It's the best way to utilize other characters without having to feel pressured to fitting into the "Sonic-standard" gameplay precedent.

 

And for the record, Genre Roulette refers to a character deviating from the "Sonic" norm, not the "platforming" norm. Yes, Gamma, Amy and Knuckles are "platformers," but then again, so is Mario.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Nepenthe]

First off, Shadow was one of the characters I said that were easily billable. As controversial as the character is, he still has a strong following in the fanbase. Cream the Rabbit? Big the Cat? Not so much.

I never claimed you said otherwise. Shadow- and Amy- were used as examples to show how less popular characters- Rouge and Cream respectively- can feasibly be relevant within a game's design by their association with the former characters, similar to how Tails is everywhere by mere fact of being Sonic's bestie, even if he's not doing anything major in the games anyway.

 

I see what you're getting at, but I didn't say 'just gameplay,' I am also talking about what will be marketable to begin with. My usage of Cream wasn't due to her being a "genre-roulette" character, but due to her overall unpopularity.

If I'm making a Sonic and Shadow game, and Rouge appears in it because she's Shadow's BFF, I wouldn't market Rouge all that much anyway because Shadow is the more important figure. I would say she's in the game if the question was asked, or maybe put on a bullet point in a press release, but that's it. I mean, notice how Sega isn't marketing Amy and Knuckles out of the bunghole for Lost World, even though they exist in the game and are actually popular characters? Heck, even Tails has barely been mentioned and he seems like he'll at least be more integral to both the gameplay and the plot than those two. You don't have to shine a blinding spotlight on every single feature in your product for said feature to have reason for existing.

 

Ya gotta ease into it, and even then it's under the presupposition that every character needs to be playable to begin with.

 

Not really. You wouldn't have to. You could just make a really amazing game and allow people to see things that they weren't as fond of before in a different light. We didn't ease into Adventure gameplay, we didn't ease into Boost gameplay, we didn't ease into Parkour, we didn't ease into each associated music and art styles for each of these eras. And I don't know why we need to ease into something that was once a notable feature of the classic games. Like, the idea of a timetable or similar plan of action for characters of all things- making Tails a co-op buddy again at least- is completely foreign to my mind in light of what Sega- and every other company on Earth- actually does when pinned to the wall and attempting to accrue consumer trust again, and that is immediate shifts in their products.

 

And of course every character doesn't need to be playable. But what does that matter any? Sonic doesn't need to be blue for the games to work, but details like this that are completely unnecessary to the clinical functioning of the games on a programming level still have intrinsic entertainment and association value, hence why Sonic is still blue when he could fuggin', I don't know, change colors every game or something. xP

 

And for the record, Genre Roulette refers to a character deviating from the "Sonic" norm, not the "platforming" norm. Yes, Gamma, Amy and Knuckles are "platformers," but then again, so is Mario.

Then the term is kind of nonsensical. We've had several different Sonic "norms," so what the "norm" is isn't even consistent, and the word genre has a specific meaning in the first place, and I'd go so far as to wager that Sonic gameplay isn't even a genre because he's the only one who does it. He's an interesting deviation of the platforming genre, at the end of the day.

[Salamander]

Why does a character need to be central to the marketing of a game before they can be playable?  If there's just one optional mission, say, in which you can play as them, does anyone need to make a huge deal about this or can it be a quiet little bonus?

 

Obviously, you can't have a situation where a minor character is suddenly playable over a whole bunch of others - you wouldn't get away with making a game with playable Sonic and Cream and nobody else.  But they wouldn't make that game in the first place.  They'd make a game where you can play as Sonic and Tails and Knuckles and Amy and then maybe Cream, e.g. Sonic Advance 2/3.  The characters that they would make playable first and foremost are the ones who would be a shoo-in due to their history as playable characters - Tails, Knuckles - or due to a combination of that history and the fact that they'd play nearly identically to Sonic anyway - Shadow, Blaze.  They don't need to justify those characters.  And by the time they get round to playable Cream and Big then it would only be because the game had a huge roster anyway, and the advertising wouldn't be "Play as Cream and Big!", it'd be "Play as over ten different characters!"

 

It's all kind of a moot point as a gameplay discussion, though.  We all know the real reason other characters haven't been playable for a long time has been due to lack of interest in them on the parts of Sonic Team and the reviewers.  (Also because the handheld versions have been downgrades of the main series games since Rush Adventure, which did have another playable character.)  If people had really wanted them in, they'd be in, whether under boost or parkour.  The best thing Sonic Team could do would be to put them in quietly and as optional bonuses and gauge the reaction from there.  (Or let Dimps make, say, Rush 3DS with playable Blaze and see how that goes.)

[Indigo Rush]

I know this seems like a sissy cop-out but I'm really not feeling my best right now, and I can't address all of what you said at once, but I'll just say a few things here:

When I am talking about marketing the characters, I'm talking about them being playable. Not simply appearing in the story, not making a cameo, not even in a mini-game, I'm talking about folks like Rouge and Omega being part of the main playable cast. That is what I'm talking about. You could argue for Knuckles, Shadow and Blaze in the Black Knight, but they were, for the large part, optional and unneeded.

 

Of course SEGA isn't talking about Amy and Knuckles, it's the same reason they didn't talk about Prof Pickle or Chip - they are not playable characters. I'm not talking about story, I'm talking about the playable cast.

 

And when I said "easing into," I'm also not talking about easing into gameplay mechanics, I'm talking about going from one character being playable to anything beyond that. Easing into different gameplay styles is a different issue altogether; it is not what I was addressing. Sonic being the lone player has been a standard, for better or worse, for the past half-decade, and most of the press and critics like it that way. The fact that anyone other than Sonic shows up on a box, even if it's Tails or Knuckles, runs the risk of hurting sales. It's the most asinine thing, but that's a reality. We couldn't even sit through a game review of Sonic Generations without the reviewer talking about Sonic's "dumb friends."

 

And as for "Sonic norm," I believe it to be a game that is at the very least "fast," has the spin-attack and focuses on a goal of getting from point A to point B. Rouge, post-classic Knuckles, Big the Cat, Gamma, Eggman, Tails in SA2, Omega and a host of other characters barely even had that, not counting Sonic Heroes, where even Big could be seen running through giant loops. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's one way to say that it's possible in theory, and another thing entirely to attempt to create a style for each and every character on your own.

 

I've seriously rattled my brain over the possibility of making every character playable (even before Silver was around, for pete's sake!) and I can tell you that it is not feasible.

Well I on the other hand, beg to differ.

 

As far as the characters are concerned, they should be very mobile and not go under a certain speed. With that in mind, while some characters have their difficulties as I've noted, I'm not convinced it's impossible to do. You've got characters like Cream who can actually work well with the gameplay, her problem is that she's a gamebreaker if playable since Cheese can destroy enemies while keeping Cream out of harms way.

 

You got characters like Big who've been centered around fishing, but had some major differences when he came back in Heroes. Why not take that shift and build from their; Big can be a wrecking ball that moves like a juggernaut when he gets rolling, while being capable of bouncing around enemies.

 

Anyone wanna give me a challenge?

...league of legends is a multiplayer game, it has to be unique to avoid repitition, Sonic is a platformer and more based around movement so once again, its not a necessity for every character to be unique.

 

 

And how is the six class setup of that game any different from the Speed, Flight, Power setup I explained? 

So you're going to tell me the exact same disclaimer I just said in that post to refute what I said? And not even bother to use this as a thinking exercise like I mentioned? =/

 

LoL being a multiplayer game is completely besides the point of what I'm saying: it has 100 characters that are different from each other, and if it can have that many characters with their own unique play style, it shouldn't be impossible to find a similiar way to do so for Sonic as a platformer with a fraction of that many characters.

 

And if the six class set up being greater than having 3 classes isn't enough of an indicator of how limited the latter is, six classes allows more variety than a three class set up, not to mention that characters hybridize those classes with secondary classes. Some characters can double as a mage and tank, others as an assassin and fighter, and so forth. And how exactly are you going to classify abilities like Pyrokinesis, Chaos Powers, or Telekinesis when they either fall outside of those categories, or in the case of Telekinesis can theoretically make three classes irrelevant by being able to do all three at once?

Edited September 30, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

So you're going to tell me the exact same disclaimer I just said in that post to refute what I said? And not even bother to use this as a thinking exercise like I mentioned? =/

 

LoL being a multiplayer game is completely besides the point of what I'm saying: it has 100 characters that are different from each other, and if it can have that many characters with their own unique play style, it shouldn't be impossible to find a similiar way to do so for Sonic as a platformer with a fraction of that many characters.

 

And if the six class set up being greater than having 3 classes isn't enough of an indicator of how limited the latter is, six classes allows more variety than a three class set up, not to mention that characters hybridize those classes with secondary classes. Some characters can double as a mage and tank, others as an assassin and fighter, and so forth. And how exactly are you going to classify abilities like Pyrokinesis, Chaos Powers, or Telekinesis when they either fall outside of those categories, or in the case of Telekinesis can theoretically make three classes irrelevant by being able to do all three at once?

 

I have a cold right now so I'll make this quick;

 

What you're suggesting is based on the idea of a multiplayer game, those types of games have to be varied because the very idea behind them is competition between a network of players to keep things varied among them.

 

Sonic is not a series about multiplayer, so I'd say its almost counterproductive to make every single character as unique as possible using that as an example. This is why people want the characters to play similar to Sonic, because that is the gameplay they are playing the game for.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I have a cold right now so I'll make this quick;

What you're suggesting is based on the idea of a multiplayer game, those types of games have to be varied because the very idea behind them is competition between a network of players to keep things varied among them.

Sonic is not a series about multiplayer, so I'd say its almost counterproductive to make every single character as unique as possible using that as an example. This is why people want the characters to play similar to Sonic, because that is the gameplay they are playing the game for.

Yes, LoL is a multiplayer game. I actually made that clear right at the beginning before you started calling it out in repetition, and then again at the end of my first post, and this is the third time I'm saying this.

I also said, this is a thinking exercise, something we should keep in mind while trying to achieve a similar level of variety in said platformer that I'm comparing it too in order to make each and everyone one of them unique while still being controlled similar to Sonic; in other words, use LoL as an example to find variety for Sonic, not "Make Sonic like LoL" like you keep thinking the point was.

Edited September 30, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[VGamer]

Isn't that what you're doing right now when assuming who the main cast should be :\

 

Eh... Touche.

[Splash the Otter]

That and each of the characters was given a moment to shine in Generations.

What, you mean a cutscene where they unfreeze and say something completely irrelevant to the story? Sorry, but that just isn't enough for me.

[Mr Useful]

What, you mean a cutscene where they unfreeze and say something completely irrelevant to the story? Sorry, but that just isn't enough for me.

Only Vector says something relevant.(He says that the Time Eater might be controlled by someone) Also, take in mind that Sonic doesn't even reply to any of his friends.

[Doc]

I don't know if it's me, but I don't think any other character that isn't sonic or doesn't play like sonic should be in 3D. I can't really imagine Tails playing in a 3D area without it being enjoyable as sonic in 3d compared to tails in 2d and sonic in 2d. Like unless if they give tails the ability to home attack, boost or whatever, it'll just be weird. I don't know what I'm saying but I can't see it working. That might be the reason why we have only sonic for now. They might need to do some perfecting.

[Sonic 1]

Collecting all the red rings should unlock classic sonic then maybe I might buy the console version till then I am sticking with 3ds version because of online play.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Sonic 1

[FriendBot]

Collecting all the red rings should unlock classic sonic then maybe I might buy the console version till then I am sticking with 3ds version because of online play.

I think the red rings are going to unlock those bonus stages and possibly Super Sonic. I don't think it's going to unlock something so unneeded.