Hey, Iizuka King! Why'd you take our Hedgehog Engine?

[Sega DogTagz]

 - the game is exclusive to WiiU meaning they have all time and manpower to work on the performance

 

I'm pretty sure its been said that development of this game did not start on the WiiU. They did not get access to a dev kit until some time later in production.

 

That means at some unknown point in time, that entire set of manpower and time had to sit down and adjust their creation onto a platform they were unfamiliar with. That cuts into the end result you know. How much time did they loose porting it over? How hard was it?

 

 

- the game is rather slow compared to previous games, so performance should not be such a problem

 

 

Preformance is a two tiered issue. Textures aside, lets not forget the Stage size would still be a problem if it ran as as as Unleashed/Generations did. A constant problem with the developments of those two games was the amount of effort that had to be put into designing a world for Sonic to blaze through at an unholy clip. This new artstyle ducks that problem with its highway in the sky mentality while at the same time allows the devs the freedom to focus entirely on building interactive stage assets rather than unaccessible scenery assets.

 

That's a pretty good trade-off.

 

 

 - the levels are even much smaller than those GIANT levels in Unleashed. That and with these blocky objects and simple textures there is little to render compare to Unleashed

 

 

And for seeing just some early stages, I'd say there seems to be quite a bit more to do. Windy hill has multiple paths running all around it - multiplying its length and replayability. How much of Green Hill Zone or Windmill Isle was even half as diverse? There is exploration to be had here. Stuff to discover. All the extra focus on platforming elements has actually lead to the implementation of more platforming elements. Go figure.

 

 

 - The WiiU itself is more powerful than Ps3/Xbox360.

 

Which isn't the end all be all this early into a consoles life span. Lost World was not built from the ground up for the WiiU and it is being made (as far as we know) by people with zero experience on the platform. Generations and Unleashed were made well into the lifespans of their respective consoles, so the devs knew the little tricks they needed to get more out of them.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Sega DogTagz

[ArtFenix]

I'm pretty sure its been said that development of this game did not start on the WiiU. They did not get access to a dev kit until some time later in production.

The development began before Generations, no? That's about 3 years. More than enough time to adjust everything to the new platform, which is, by the way, not so different from Wii. As far I as heard, WiiU and Wii are like Wii and GameCube. Like..each console is an upgraded version of the previous one. Even if they do differ much, there is enough time to do everything. Sonic Lost World doesn't seem to be a game packed with so much content that needs to be adjusted to the new console and require a lot of time for that.

 

Preformance is a two tiered issue. Textures aside, lets not forget the Stage size would still be a problem if it ran as as as Unleashed/Generations did. A constant problem with the developments of those two games was the amount of effort that had to be put into designing a world for Sonic to blaze through at an unholy clip. This new artstyle ducks that problem with its highway in the sky mentality while at the same time allows the devs the freedom to focus entirely on building interactive stage assets rather than unaccessible scenery assets.

 

That's a pretty good trade-off.

 

I am sorry but I didn't understand a thing from all this. Unleashed is much bigger, much faster, much more prettier to look at. What point are you trying to make? What "good trade-off" is there? I fail to see it.

 

 

And for seeing just some early stages, I'd say there seems to be quite a bit more to do. Windy hill has multiple paths running all around it - multiplying its length and replayability.

No. Most of those alternate paths are right at the same place as the others just on the other side of the tube-shaped level. That doesn't make the level any longer or bigger. That dessert candies level thing is the definition of 2D constand boring linearity and the third level is surely a watered down on-rails version of Unleashed style gameplay with little to do except run and dodge.

 

 

There is exploration to be had here. Stuff to discover. All the extra focus on platforming elements has actually lead to the implementation of more platforming elements.

I suspect that after finding all red star rings and animals it would just not be interesting to go those routes again that often. Replayability will likely last while you try to find the items that unlock stuff.

 

 

Which isn't the end all be all this early into a consoles life span. Lost World was not built from the ground up for the WiiU and it is being made (as far as we know) by people with zero experience on the platform.

That's not really a good point either. Same goes for Secret rings except that game had an amazing story, it was fast, the levels were huge and there were tons of minigames etc., etc., etc.

 

As of now, SLW just doesn't look impressive or anything near something that I'd expect a new generation Sonic game to look like. To me it's a huge step down and since we're talking graphics quality here, I made my points. Not gonna talk about other things.

Edited June 17, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Harley Quinn]

I'm not necessarily impressed by 60 fps, though I know it'll most likely help with performance as a whole. The graphics style appeals to me visually. I never enjoyed gritty realism, and while I did like the cartoony detail in Unleashed and Generations, this game looks bouncy and cute, which I love.

[Sega DogTagz]

The development began before Generations, no? That's about 3 years. More than enough time to adjust everything to the new platform, which is, by the way, not so different from Wii. As far I as heard, WiiU and Wii are like Wii and GameCube. Like..each console is an upgraded version of the previous one. Even if they do differ much, there is enough time to do everything. Sonic Lost World doesn't seem to be a game packed with so much content that needs to be adjusted to the new console and require a lot of time for that.

 

 

 

I wouldn’t know how the WiiU compares to the Wii from a development standpoint, so those are waters I will not tread. I will say with confidence that porting assets and game specific data from PC to console is not simply a drag and drop affair. Some amount of effort would have been required to make that conversion. Even if the team would have had a few years to work on this game, they would have had to lose some portion of their time to the porting process. Re-bulding their control scheme to fit a controller the industry has never seen before and doing what they can to make the game appropriate for the system (touch controls, ect). All that eats into those three years. They almost had to start over in a sense and it doesn’t help that the tech is foreign to them.

 

Its not about how content heavy Lost World appears to be, its about the development cycle. They were halfway done building a game, and along comes an exec telling them to pick up their progress, port it to another system and add all the system specific components to go with it. You can’t tell me that wouldn’t have an effect on the end result.

 

 

 

I am sorry but I didn't understand a thing from all this. Unleashed is much bigger, much faster, much more prettier to look at. What point are you trying to make? What "good trade-off" is there? I fail to see it.

 

 

 

That all those assets spent on making Unleashed look pretty essentially built Sonic a playground he couldn’t play in. It stressed the devs out (they constantly spoke to the amount of work that went into background stuff) and it really only added graphical flare to the end result. Lost World focuses its attention on the world Sonic CAN play in, which should lead to more creative platfroming, more sense of exploration and presumably, happier dev teams.

 

I'd also be willing to wager that Happy devs tend to make better games. Lets just keep that in mind too.

 

 

 

No. Most of those alternate paths are right at the same place as the others just on the other side of the tube-shaped level. That doesn't make the level any longer or bigger. That dessert candies level thing is the definition of 2D constand boring linearity and the third level is surely a watered down on-rails version of Unleashed style gameplay with little to do except run and dodge.

 

Maybe not longer, but bigger for sure. And lots not forget deeper. Much deeper. Generations got a bit better on the multiple path tree, but even for a first stage this makes that look like straight line zone.

 

And on the longer front – I’d have to get my hands on it for myself first, but I cruse through those so called “massive” early levels of Unleahsed, Windmill Isle and Savannah Citadel, in under 2 min. This looks at least comparable to those for a stage one kinda deal – and those lack half the multi-tiered structure this level has.

 

Also, if were going to compare them, I’d say we should compare those other two types of stages to Unleahsed’s mini acts or Gen’s missions. That is pretty much what they are anyway

 

I suspect that after finding all red star rings and animals it would just not be interesting to go those routes again that often. Replayability will likely last while you try to find the items that unlock stuff.

 

 

Why sell it short? Unleahsed’s replayability owes more to its speedrunning potential than any hidden items. Generations brought skills and 30 second trails to the table, and leaderboards are increasingly commonplace in Sonic games. Lost World has the potential to capitalize on all these things to boost its replayability (to say nothing of several multiplayer modes – including a competitive model) on top of collecting the red rings and animals.

 

Once the hidden items are all collected, you’ll still be encouraged to race up and down and all around a level to find the fastest route, bump up your saved animal count, beat your rivals, uncover new paths and the simple joy of exploration.

 

That’s more replayable factors than Unleashed and Gens had combined. God help our free time if the multiplayer mode returns to SA2 levels of kicking ass.

 

That's not really a good point either. Same goes for Secret rings except that game had an amazing story, it was fast, the levels were huge and there were tons of minigames etc., etc., etc.

 

First off, I’m pretty sure the entire minigames aspect of Secret Rings were handled by an entirely separate dev team. So unless Sonic Team devoted another set of guys or outsourced the project that is not a fair comparison.

 

Secondly, we’ve yet to experience LW story, so comparing them there is a mute point.

 

Finally, Secret Rings was no technical marvel for the Wii. Its graphics were not bleeding edge, it got away with stylized, but lazy cut scene’s for the most part and the on rails aspect of the game free’d the dev team from several technical hurdles such as implementing stuff like controllable cameras, tweaking Sonics mobility and other hallmarks of 3D sonic.

 

First effort vs. first effort, I think the LW team is well on their way to blowing that rail runner out of the water.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Sega DogTagz

[Scar]

I'm pretty sure its been said that development of this game did not start on the WiiU. They did not get access to a dev kit until some time later in production.

 

That means at some unknown point in time, that entire set of manpower and time had to sit down and adjust their creation onto a platform they were unfamiliar with. That cuts into the end result you know. How much time did they loose porting it over? How hard was it?

Where has this been said. Source?

 

Preformance is a two tiered issue. Textures aside, lets not forget the Stage size would still be a problem if it ran as as as Unleashed/Generations did. A constant problem with the developments of those two games was the amount of effort that had to be put into designing a world for Sonic to blaze through at an unholy clip. This new artstyle ducks that problem with its highway in the sky mentality while at the same time allows the devs the freedom to focus entirely on building interactive stage assets rather than unaccessible scenery assets.

Right, so they made the stages smaller and highway-in-the-sky levels. So, why use a much more basic lighting engine? Why use lower quality assets. Phos has already laid out the numerous technical shortcomings of the graphics of Lost World.

Instead of sacrificing either large, detailed levels or highly impressive graphics, they decided to get rid of both. Why? I don't see any reason, other than to reduce cost and increase the bottom line. They could quite easily have kept Unleashed's lighting, and used just as detailed models and textures in Lost World without sacrificing framerate or performance, simply because there is less geometry on screen.

 

That's a pretty good trade-off.

 

There is no "trade-off". They just downgraded everything. Less detailed texturing, less detailed environments, lower fidelity lighting, and less level geometry. You don't need to do all of that to increase performance, especially on a more powerful system like the Wii U. 

[Sega DogTagz]

Where has this been said. Source?

 

 

 

Guh, gimmie a sec…

 

*rummages through brain*

 

Its been said a handful of times in a different shape and form. I think Iizuka said it best in this interview with NintendoWorldRepot…

 

Development of Sonic Lost World started before the team knew about the Wii U. They decided to make it a Nintendo exclusive because of how a second screen "gave us extra options and advantages". He also stated it would be an exclusive because "Wii U is where fans of action platform games are going to. http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/34617

 

 

This is something we should be able to take at face value. They started development on Lost World before they even knew about the WiiU. And yet here we are at E3 with touch screen capabilities, Remote play capabilities, second screen intergration and the game up and running on the new console.

 

There is no question in my mind that at some point, the dev team would have had to tear down what they were working on, port it over, and then spend time adding in all this WiiU specific functionality. Its not just a switch you can hit. That takes time and effort.

 

 

Right, so they made the stages smaller and highway-in-the-sky levels. So, why use a much more basic lighting engine? Why use lower quality assets. Phos has already laid out the numerous technical shortcomings of the graphics of Lost World.

Instead of sacrificing either large, detailed levels or highly impressive graphics, they decided to get rid of both. Why? I don't see any reason, other than to reduce cost and increase the bottom line. They could quite easily have kept Unleashed's lighting, and used just as detailed models and textures in Lost World without sacrificing framerate or performance, simply because there is less geometry on screen.

 

There is no "trade-off". They just downgraded everything. Less detailed texturing, less detailed environments, lower fidelity lighting, and less level geometry. You don't need to do all of that to increase performance, especially on a more powerful system like the Wii U. 

 

I'd contest smaller. Its pretty comparable for a first level.

 

 

We can see the advantages to the trade-off in the increased prominence of interactive level geometry. Gone are those areas that were pretty to look at and nothing more and in their place is a living breathing playground that Sonic can use to traverse the main levels. It’d also contest some of those downgraded remarks. You can’t just compare whimsical touches to detailed variants heads up like that. Aestetics don’t work in such a manner. Motobugs were designed to look adorable in this game. So what. That has its own charms. The same is true for the grass and the special effects. Its just looking to set a different mood.

 

The only downgraded one I’d give you off the bat is the chomper. Those guys are hideously basic.

 

And lets take a gander at a finished product or an ice level or lava level before we make judgments on the lighting engine. I seem to recall Unleahsed making big leaps during its dev cycle on that front and from stage to stage in the end result.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Sega DogTagz

[ArtFenix]

Re-bulding their control scheme to fit a controller the industry has never seen before and doing what they can to make the game appropriate for the system

I think you overrate the controller's role in SLW. Nothing revolutionary there. Some simple as all hell touch screen wisp power activation and stuff like that.

Also, the game was developed ON PC, not FOR PC. I think it's pretty safe to assume the game was meant to come out for Wii.

 

They were halfway done building a game

Wow, wow, slow down a little! Who said they were halfway done by the time they decided to make it a WiiU game?

 

That all those assets spent on making Unleashed look pretty essentially built Sonic a playground he couldn’t play in. It stressed the devs out (they constantly spoke to the amount of work that went into background stuff) and it really only added graphical flare to the end result. Lost World focuses its attention on the world Sonic CAN play in, which should lead to more creative platfroming, more sense of exploration and presumably, happier dev teams.

 

I'd also be willing to wager that Happy devs tend to make better games. Lets just keep that in mind too.

And who told you the developers weren't happy with what amazing visuals they achieved in Unleashed/Colors/Generations? What made you think they were somehow unhappy with those games?

And Sonic definitely could play in those playgrounds.

 

Maybe not longer, but bigger for sure. And lots not forget deeper. Much deeper.

Bigger? Deeper? I'm sorry but what's so deep about the pipe level with pretty much 4 routes (upper path, left, right, bottom)? It's piss easy to make this kind of level. On the other hand, Generations had THE alternate routes. Sure, it was far from perfect but it was on the right path and Seaside Hill was truly an amazing and flawless level.

 

And on the longer front – I’d have to get my hands on it for myself first, but I cruse through those so called “massive” early levels of Unleahsed, Windmill Isle and Savannah Citadel, in under 2 min. This looks at least comparable to those for a stage one kinda deal – and those lack half the multi-tiered structure this level has.

No man. No. Try to make Sonic as fast as he was in Unleashed and speedrun a stage from SLW. Something tells me it will take even less than Apotos act 2. (because act 1 is basically a tutorial level, OK?)

 

Unleahsed’s mini acts or Gen’s missions. That is pretty much what they are anyway

Yeah, right. Let's call a spade a spade. Unleashed and Colors called those mini-stages, Generations called those missions. SLW calls these main stages, no?

 

As for replayability I will refrain from speaking more about it as I'm still not really sure about all that.

 

Secondly, we’ve yet to experience LW story, so comparing them there is a mute point.

I would bet my money on the story being not much better than Colors AT BEST. I expect Colors-level jokes, lots of slapstick humor and trash-talking in general. No character development and some missed opportunities. I may be wrong but we'll see about that.

 

Finally, Secret Rings was no technical marvel for the Wii. Its graphics were not bleeding edge

It was a better achievement than what SLW brings to the table in terms of graphics. I'd say Secret rings looks better than SLW and that's a game from 2007!

 

it got away with stylized, but lazy cut scene’s for the most part and the on rails aspect of the game free’d the dev team from several technical hurdles such as implementing stuff like controllable cameras, tweaking Sonics mobility and other hallmarks of 3D sonic.

You've goa a point here but SLW does the same, just with different things and it's much more noticeable this time.

 

First effort vs. first effort, I think the LW team is well on their way to blowing that rail runner out of the water.

Sorry, I'll disagree.

 

 

 

There is no question in my mind that at some point, the dev team would have had to tear down what they were working on, port it over, and then spend time adding in all this WiiU specific functionality

Thing is, there is absolutely nothing that impressive about WiiU features. Just basic stuff I mentioned above.

 

 

 

P.S. I also wanted to remind just how stupidly LINEAR the other two levels are in SLW. One is 2D definition of linearity, the other one is the same but in 3D and on top of that it's on rails! ...and the level is a STRAIGHT LINE. You don't even turn and the segments of the level just repeat again and again. Run, dodge that thing, kill bees holding a button, quick-step, fly down, repeat, land on some random ugly blocky face.

....revolutionary. Yeah... riiiight.

Edited June 17, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Nepenthe]

It's not the fact of it being super technically impressive, but rather the plain old fact that the assets would have to be ported from one piece of architecture (PC) to another (Wii U), which is going to require some effort during the conversion process and take time out of whatever production schedule they have on this thing.

[Sega DogTagz]

I think you overrate the controller's role in SLW. Nothing revolutionary there. Some simple as all hell touch screen wisp power activation and stuff like that.

 

Also, the game was developed ON PC, not FOR PC. I think it's pretty safe to assume the game was meant to come out for Wii.

 

Doesn’t really matter about how revolutionary the new features are. They would not have been integrated into a PC build, and they are now readily present on the WiiU model. It would have had to take the team some significant amount of time to add all this stuff in. Porting stuff and adding functionality like that without a doubt cuts into the development time.

 

I’m not overrating anything. Those are features somebody, somewhere had to sit down to develop, code and test for bugs. That’s less time devoted to everything else.

 

 

Wow, wow, slow down a little! Who said they were halfway done by the time they decided to make it a WiiU game?

 

 

Who knows how far along they were. But we do know that progress was made, and then must have came to a screeching halt for a little while so they could make the necessary port adjustments. Could have been a short halt, or an extended one.

 

The point is, this is a hurdle other games in the series almost always get to avoid.

 

 

And who told you the developers weren't happy with what amazing visuals they achieved in Unleashed/Colors/Generations? What made you think they were somehow unhappy with those games?

 

Its common knowledge the devs on the Unleahsed crew spilled their milk about how much effort went into crafting that games racetracks. The constantly spoke about the difficulty in balancing game length with that kind of speed and attention to detail – due to the need of laying out 8 miles of track.

 

Not speaking about the end result here, but from a pure stage building perspective, those same dev teams must be ecstatic that this new art direction goes a long way to alleviating one of their biggest and mort prominently vocal concerns over the last few games. In that regard, they must be pretty content.

 

I’m not talking about being happy with the end result, I’m talking about the enjoyment factor of building these stages. The boss man of Sonic Team has gone on record stating that the new style allots his team more freedom with what they can do within the levels. What dev wouldn’t be happier with that kind of change?

 

And Sonic definitely could play in those playgrounds.

 

 

No he couldn’t.

 

Shoot, there was usually more to what you couldn’t explore then what you could. I’m pretty sure linearity is a common complaint of Unleahsed.

 

 

 

Bigger? Deeper? I'm sorry but what's so deep about the pipe level with pretty much 4 routes (upper path, left, right, bottom)? It's piss easy to make this kind of level. On the other hand, Generations had THE alternate routes. Sure, it was far from perfect but it was on the right path and Seaside Hill was truly an amazing and flawless level.

 

And yet Lost World has both kinds of alternate paths. Sure it has those 4-ways pipes, but did you happen to miss THE alternate routes present in Windy Hill that take you away from the main level for a stretch? Gold Cannon’s anyone?

 

Cause from where I’m sitting, its looking like the best of both worlds. Somehow you managed to turn a blind eye to that.

 

 

 

No man. No. Try to make Sonic as fast as he was in Unleashed and speedrun a stage from SLW. Something tells me it will take even less than Apotos act 2. (because act 1 is basically a tutorial level, OK?)

 

Yeah, right. Let's call a spade a spade. Unleashed and Colors called those mini-stages, Generations called those missions. SLW calls these main stages, no?

 

 

We could wait to see a longer level before you start making wild claims like that. Furthermore, Stages like Windmill Isle didn’t have half as many platforming elements to slow you down. Even if you want to transplant all that speed over to LW, you have to account for that too.

 

On top of that, I’m pretty sure Unleashed and Colors called their mini stages Act’s which is a historically apt term for a level that takes place in the same “hub” as another level.

 

Seeing as how LW is using the word zone, in the same way that those games used the word act, I think this is less of a case of calling a spade a spade and more of a case of you being unreasonably resenting of a practice you seem to be accepting of in earlier titles.

 

If memory serves correctly (and I know it does in this case) both Unleahsed and Colors had a handful of pitifully short acts (like some 30 seconds short). If anything, LW’s mini-stages put those to shame in the length department.

 

 

 

I would bet my money on the story being not much better than Colors AT BEST. I expect Colors-level jokes, lots of slapstick humor and trash-talking in general. No character development and some missed opportunities. I may be wrong but we'll see about that.

 

But that is still no more than an assumption. Until proven otherwise, you can’t possibly leverage another games story against LW. That’s unfounded nonsense so don't even try it.

 

 

It was a better achievement than what SLW brings to the table in terms of graphics. I'd say Secret rings looks better than SLW and that's a game from 2007!

 

 

Lost me there buddy. I’m not even sure you could get a decent amount of people to follow you off that cliff. Maybe a few, but its hard for must of us to get past that washed out non-HD sheen Secret Rings was rocking back in the day.

 

Even the atmosphere is better in Lost World. Night Palace aside, SR was pretty muddy in that department too.

 

P.S. I also wanted to remind just how stupidly LINEAR the other two levels are in SLW. One is 2D definition of linearity, the other one is the same but in 3D and on top of that it's on rails! ...and the level is a STRAIGHT LINE. You don't even turn and the segments of the level just repeat again and again. Run, dodge that thing, kill bees holding a button, quick-step, fly down, repeat, land on some random ugly blocky face.

....revolutionary. Yeah... riiiight.

 

 

 

As Nep reiterated, the revolutionary status has nothing to do with this…

 

Also, on a side note, that linearity claim is a pretty funny defense from someone using Unleashed to hold up their end of the argument. I’m pretty sure a lot of people would consider that game a one trick pony in a similar vein

 

Run, slide, quickstep, hop, BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOST.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Sega DogTagz

[SilentDoom]

@Scar and ArtFenix:

 

http://www.sonicstadium.org/2013/06/tss-e3-takashi-iizuka-interview-pure-platforming-action/

 

TSS interview with Iizuka.  Answers a couple of the questions you guys were posing mainly here:

 

 

 

TSS – What was the reason for going exclusively with Nintendo on these three upcoming Sonic games?

 

Iizuka – When we were first developing Sonic Lost World, the Wii U was not even announced yet and we were developing it on PC. So, the Wii U was the right choice for a couple of reasons. First of all, the second screen gave us extra options and advantages also, we think the Wii U is where fans of action platform games are going to. Plus we’ve had much success with Nintendo in the past.

 

and here

 

 

 

TSS – What was the reason for going with more simple and whimsical visuals?

 

Iizuka – Basically, so Sonic Generations and Unleashed was very beautiful with detailed HD graphics. It was great, but it had disadvantages as well. The rings and enemies can be hard to see at times and could merge with the background a little. Also, since the visuals were so heavy, we were pretty much locked at 30 FPS. So this new style makes things pop visually, things such as rings and enemies are more more easier to track and gives us 60 fps and a lot more freedom in development on how we build the stages.

 

Note that in this instance I'm not arguing against either of your points, merely highlighting a couple of things I noticed you were questioning.

Edited June 17, 2013 by SiLeNtDo0m

[ArtFenix]

No he couldn’t.

I prefer to give better examples from Generations since it was the last game with Unleashed style. Like.. Seaside hill. You could explore A LOT. In SLW all you do is traverse some short levels placed over bottomless pit with really boring background.

 

We could wait to see a longer level before you start making wild claims like that. Furthermore, Stages like Windmill Isle didn’t have half as many platforming elements to slow you down. Even if you want to transplant all that speed over to LW, you have to account for that too.

 

On top of that, I’m pretty sure Unleashed and Colors called their mini stages Act’s which is a historically apt term for a level that takes place in the same “hub” as another level.

No matter how you look at that, Unleashed stages ARE much bigger. Give SLW Sonic Unleashed Sonic speed and imagine how short those levels from SLW would become.

 

If memory serves correctly (and I know it does in this case) both Unleahsed and Colors had a handful of pitifully short acts (like some 30 seconds short). If anything, LW’s mini-stages put those to shame in the length department.

Don't misinterpret things. Unleashed (and Colors) had that concept of main acts and filler acts/missions. SLW doesn't seem to have that since there were 3 levels shown (WiiU) and they are all different looking with different kinds of gameplay. Thing is, while Windy Hill is at least OK, the other two are the epitomes of narrow corridor linear gameplay style: one in 2D and the other - 3D.

 

Are you seriously comparing Unleashed mini levels to SLW main ones?

 

Also, on a side note, that linearity claim is a pretty funny defense from someone using Unleashed to hold up their end of the argument. I’m pretty sure a lot of people would consider that game a one trick pony in a similar vein

Yes, I'm doing that on purpose. It's because while being VERY linear, Unleashed is still not as linear and repetitive as that bee hive level. Seriously, not only is the gameplay incredibly linear, on-rails and repetitive but the very parts of the level constantly repeat themselves while in Unleashed the level changes as you progress and there is a lot more to do that in SLW level...which is so slow compared to Unleashed! (since it's so slow, why did they kill the beautiful graphics and details from Unleashed again?)

What? Is that not true?

It's just a STRAIGHT LINE!!! That's just shameful.

 

BTW take a look at these. I didn't even upload Night Palace screens. These DO look beautiful.

Sure, that's all thanks to the emulation but it's only fair because it's the game from 2007!!! And a 2007 game looks better than a 2013 1080p game. How is that even possible?

 

SilentDoom, I read that interview.

Edited June 17, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Soniman]

Comparing a full developed level to a rather short one with a specific gimmick.

 

Totally fair.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Soniman

[ArtFenix]

Comparing a full developed level to a rather short one with a specific gimmick.

 

Totally fair.

Actually we are comparing certain ASPECTS of games (which is, yes, totally fair, lol) rather than games as finished products. But you missed that because you didn't bother to actually read the discussion.

Edited June 17, 2013 by ArtFenix

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Art Feenix, I believe I missed the part where Secret Rings looked better than Lost World.

 

Just having more realistic textures or aspects does not make an artstyle good. If that were true, then Wind Waker is the ugliest game of all time.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Sixth-Rate Soma

[Jolt_TH]

Just want to give my two cents on a couple of points

No matter how you look at that, Unleashed stages ARE much bigger. Give SLW Sonic Unleashed Sonic speed and imagine how short those levels from SLW would become.

But that isn't the point, it's about feeling bigger and the speed is part of that feeling. if you put unleashed speed into any game everything is smaller than unleashed, from Sonic 1 even to Sonic 06. Imagine GHZ (a level that can be beaten in under 30 seconds and apply Unleashed speed, part of the feel of a sonic game is the speed. They had to render like 8 miles of track to give you 2-3 minutes of play, here they have to render less space to give you the same amount of playtime. So this "give SLW Unleashed speed" isn't a valid point.

Also what has a bigger surface area?

A 3 x 10 rectangle or a cylinder of a length of 10 and a diameter of 3?

It's just a STRAIGHT LINE!!! That's just shameful.

Someone on this forum who played the game actually revealed that there were alternate paths so...

[MegasonicZX]

I prefer to give better examples from Generations since it was the last game with Unleashed style. Like.. Seaside hill. You could explore A LOT. In SLW all you do is traverse some short levels placed over bottomless pit with really boring background.

 

No matter how you look at that, Unleashed stages ARE much bigger. Give SLW Sonic Unleashed Sonic speed and imagine how short those levels from SLW would become.

 

Don't misinterpret things. Unleashed (and Colors) had that concept of main acts and filler acts/missions. SLW doesn't seem to have that since there were 3 levels shown (WiiU) and they are all different looking with different kinds of gameplay. Thing is, while Windy Hill is at least OK, the other two are the epitomes of narrow corridor linear gameplay style: one in 2D and the other - 3D.

 

Are you seriously comparing Unleashed mini levels to SLW main ones?

 

Yes, I'm doing that on purpose. It's because while being VERY linear, Unleashed is still not as linear and repetitive as that bee hive level. Seriously, not only the gameplay is incredibly linear, on-rails and repetitive but the very parts of the level constantly repeat themselves while in Unleashed the level changes as you progress and there is a lot more to do that in SLW level...which is so slow compared to Unleashed! (since it's so slow, why did they kill the beautiful graphics and details from Unleashed again?)

What? Is that not true?

It's just a STRAIGHT LINE!!! That's just shameful.

 

BTW take a look at these. I didn't even upload Night Palace screens. These DO look beautiful.

Sure, that's all thanks to the emulation but it's only fair because it's the game from 2007!!! And a 2007 game looks better than a 2013 1080p game. How is that even possible?

 

SilentDoom, I read that interview.

My god 

 

I prefer to give better examples from Generations since it was the last game with Unleashed style. Like.. Seaside hill. You could explore A LOT. In SLW all you do is traverse some short levels placed over bottomless pit with really boring background.

 

No matter how you look at that, Unleashed stages ARE much bigger. Give SLW Sonic Unleashed Sonic speed and imagine how short those levels from SLW would become.

 

Don't misinterpret things. Unleashed (and Colors) had that concept of main acts and filler acts/missions. SLW doesn't seem to have that since there were 3 levels shown (WiiU) and they are all different looking with different kinds of gameplay. Thing is, while Windy Hill is at least OK, the other two are the epitomes of narrow corridor linear gameplay style: one in 2D and the other - 3D.

 

Are you seriously comparing Unleashed mini levels to SLW main ones?

 

Yes, I'm doing that on purpose. It's because while being VERY linear, Unleashed is still not as linear and repetitive as that bee hive level. Seriously, not only the gameplay is incredibly linear, on-rails and repetitive but the very parts of the level constantly repeat themselves while in Unleashed the level changes as you progress and there is a lot more to do that in SLW level...which is so slow compared to Unleashed! (since it's so slow, why did they kill the beautiful graphics and details from Unleashed again?)

What? Is that not true?

It's just a STRAIGHT LINE!!! That's just shameful.

 

BTW take a look at these. I didn't even upload Night Palace screens. These DO look beautiful.

Sure, that's all thanks to the emulation but it's only fair because it's the game from 2007!!! And a 2007 game looks better than a 2013 1080p game. How is that even possible?

 

SilentDoom, I read that interview.

My god I love unleashed *ahem* but in defense of lost world thats how that stage is supposed to be so your argument is kind of moot. Also, to correct you on the bee level, you don't sidestep all the movement is manual except for running automatically obviously.

[Alluusio]

The thing about Storybook and the Unleashed trilogy games is that there really aren't that many levels and you can blast through the game pretty quickly. This almost certainly has something to do with the insane amount of detail the stages have. If all that effort is instead put into level design and areas you can actually explore maybe there will also be more levels and clearing the game would take more than a couple of hours. I really hope this is the case here.

[ArtFenix]

But that isn't the point, it's about feeling bigger and the speed is part of that feeling. if you put unleashed speed into any game everything is smaller than unleashed, from Sonic 1 even to Sonic 06. Imagine GHZ (a level that can be beaten in under 30 seconds and apply Unleashed speed, part of the feel of a sonic game is the speed. They had to render like 8 miles of track to give you 2-3 minutes of play, here they have to render less space to give you the same amount of playtime. So this "give SLW Unleashed speed" isn't a valid point.

....which is the very reason I brought up all that comparison: THERE WAS NO NEED TO KILL THE VISUALS with an excuse of supposedly lower FPS!!! There is literally NOTHING that would kill the framerate even with Unleashed visuals. That's what I have been trying to say.

I wasn't trying to prove anything else beside that, because yeah, I can understand that different kinds of gameplay may require different length of levels.

 

Also, to correct you on the bee level, you don't sidestep all the movement is manual except for running automatically obviously.

I knew about that.

..still more repetitive than anything in Apotos act 2.

Edited June 17, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Diogenes]

They didn't "kill" the visuals, you're just mad that they aren't styled the way you want.

[ArtFenix]

They didn't "kill" the visuals, you're just mad that they aren't styled the way you want.

While that's kinda true, they DID kill most of things that were making Unleashed look GORGEOUS. And there was absolutely no need for that.

[Cyalume]

I'm sorta on the fence with this one. I really wish we could've had visuals on par with Unleashed, but I'm not willing to sacrifice 60 FPS for it. Hopefully they come out with something on the PS4 in the future that allows us to have both.

[Jolt_TH]

If this is all about the visuals why are you bringing up gameplay elements and gameplay itself?

I know you don't like the art style ArtFenix and I'm pretty sure everyone here knows it, i also know that not everyone likes them either, but I hardly call these visuals "killed" it's a different style from Unleashed/Generations realistic style, nothing wrong with a change of art style, same thing that happened between Sonic 1 and CD, CD and 2, 3&K and Adventure, Adventure 2 and Heroes, Heroes and 06, 06 and Unleashed and now this, not saying everyone loves the cartoony style but it isnt the ultimate sin that'll kill the franchise that you are making it out to be. Just seems like you keep popping in to start the EXACT same argument over and over when you have given your unchanged opinion multiple times.

[Cyalume]

If this is all about the visuals why are you bringing up gameplay elements and gameplay itself?

I know you don't like the art style ArtFenix and I'm pretty sure everyone here knows it, i also know that not everyone likes them either, but I hardly call these visuals "killed" it's a different style from Unleashed/Generations realistic style, nothing wrong with a change of art style, same thing that happened between Sonic 1 and CD, CD and 2, 3&K and Adventure, Adventure 2 and Heroes, Heroes and 06, 06 and Unleashed and now this, not saying everyone loves the cartoony style but it isnt the ultimate sin that'll kill the franchise that you are making it out to be. Just seems like you keep popping in to start the EXACT same argument over and over when you have given your unchanged opinion multiple times.

I wouldn't call the visuals killed, but I can somewhat see what he's saying. Each of the games you mention had an increase in graphical power (despite whatever tradeoffs may have been made to acheive that result), whereas this new game seems like a slight step backwards in favor of performance. Not a bad thing, especially if all this back and forth dissing of the Hedgehog Engine holds true. Killed, no, but it is inferior eye candy wise.

[Jolt_TH]

I wouldn't call the visuals killed, but I can somewhat see what he's saying. Each of the games you mention had an increase in graphical power (despite whatever tradeoffs may have been made to acheive that result), whereas this new game seems like a slight step backwards in favor of performance. Not a bad thing, especially if all this back and forth dissing of the Hedgehog Engine holds true. Killed, no, but it is inferior eye candy wise.

Oh I can see his point as well, it's not detail heavy like Unleashed and Gens no, but not everyone sees it as a bad thing and a few people quite like it, me included. I just don't think it should be seen as a sin of the highest degree, maybe Sonic Team are going for a different focus rather than the visuals, in this case they seem to be focusing on the level design and gameplay rather than really über detailed visuals and the cartoony style doesn't look bad by any count. Just because its a Next Gen system I don't see why things have to get more and more realistic and more graphically "impressive" there will be a point that video games are going to be more realistic than real life, I'm sick of this expectation that next gen has to mean amazingly detailed graphics, the visuals are simple yes, but they look high quality, look good, they look impressive and they look different to most other games, and I like that they aren't trying to "fit in" with your super realistic games.

This whole Next Gen = über realistic and detailed so far you can see the individual soil particles is along the same lines of cartoony = kiddy or mature = dark/serious

[sonfan1984]

This is the first time I see people calling Generations realistic. I'd thought it's cartoony but more detailed. :/

Edited June 17, 2013 by sonfan1984