Combat/Enemies in Sonic

[Sega DogTagz]

One of the things the fan film definitely had a good idea about.

 

Its also one of the things 06 was on the right track about... before going horrifically askew.

 

Riding the bosses was a little bit of a thrill. It got you up close and personal and gave you more satisfaction than a simple homing attack to a weak spot. Of course, it overstayed its welcome in that game, but if you were to condense that to a micro minigame, it could be a fun little way to suicide badniks into walls or divebomb buzzbombers into their ground based comrades. All while having Sonic bounce around as he does in CG scenes and various cartoons.

 

best of all it keeps him moving.

 

You could even add a platforming element to it. Can't reach that ledge? Commandeer an EggSpinner and fly to it. Can't clear a gap? Stop on a spring shield toting EggFighter and bounce on across. Lacking a snowboard for that steep looking hill ahead? Use an EggPawn as a human toboggan.

[Tani Coyote]

if you were to condense that to a micro minigame, it could be a fun little way to suicide badniks into walls or divebomb buzzbombers into their ground based comrades. All while having Sonic bounce around as he does in CG scenes and various cartoons.

 

best of all it keeps him moving.

 

Ohhh yes, I am definitely liking where this idea is going! If implemented right I can see this being a very amusing little gimmick.

 

You could even add a platforming element to it. Can't reach that ledge? Commandeer an EggSpinner and fly to it. Can't clear a gap? Stop on a spring shield toting EggFighter and bounce on across. Lacking a snowboard for that steep looking hill ahead? Use an EggPawn as a human toboggan.

 

Yeah, this should definitely be made official. It was hilarious when Crash Twinsanity had Crash using Cortex as a snowboard, and I think it'd work just as well, if not even moreso, with Sonic and a Badnik. I mean, if he can rip off parts of a helicopter's wings to use for snowboarding purposes, why not robots?

 

As for using springed enemies to clear a gap... I'm seeing some serious Klonoa vibes here. It'd work very well.

[-blank-]

I would actually love to see Sonic be able to ride enemies. It would be a very cool way to add a bit of charm and personality to the gameplay.

[Tani Coyote]

I would actually love to see Sonic be able to ride enemies. It would be a very cool way to add a bit of charm and personality to the gameplay.

 

What could possibly work is they have very brief quicktime events in front of groups of enemies. Two or three buttons maximum, and when pulled off, a quick cutscene plays of him laying waste to the group in amusing fashion, such as jumping on a Motobug that charges at him only for him to flip it around and send it flying into another Motobug, with a third being destroyed by the shrapnel or being flat out kicked off the stage into the abyss below.

 

Most important is that as soon as the QTE is over he's back at the same speed he is when he entered it. A small amusing cutscene interrupted the play, destroyed the Badniks, and in the end didn't really interrupt the sense of speed at all. He just showed off his destruction of the robots in slow motion.

[Diogenes]

What could possibly work is they have very brief quicktime events in front of groups of enemies.

Ugh, no, that is the worst shit. Give me the tools to do it myself, let me decide when and where to use it. Don't break the flow for shitty Simon Says.

[Tani Coyote]

Ugh, no, that is the worst shit. Give me the tools to do it myself, let me decide when and where to use it. Don't break the flow for shitty Simon Says.

 

You're going to have practical QTE anyway given that you'd likely need to combine at least two buttons to pull off some special move, so it really isn't going to make a difference.

[Diogenes]

It makes all the difference. I don't want the game slowing down for me to put in some arbitrary sequence of buttons. I don't want the game flashing button prompts every time I come near an enemy...nor do I want those actions limited only to the enemies they want you to use. Why use one of the clumsiest, shittiest, most immersion-breaking inventions in gaming when you can integrate the ability properly into his moveset? Especially when they've already taken away so much.

[Tani Coyote]

It makes all the difference. I don't want the game slowing down for me to put in some arbitrary sequence of buttons. I don't want the game flashing button prompts every time I come near an enemy...nor do I want those actions limited only to the enemies they want you to use. Why use one of the clumsiest, shittiest, most immersion-breaking inventions in gaming when you can integrate the ability properly into his moveset? Especially when they've already taken away so much.

 

Fair points, but in some cases it makes sense. You can't press a button to do a quick kick into the water if there is no water, or hop on a Motobug if there is no Motobug.

 

I mean we can individually program the moves so they do something different for each particular enemy, granted... man that'd be fun to design. Both sarcastic and literal there.

[Diogenes]

 

If you need QTEs and mini-cutscenes to make your game interesting, then IMO you've failed as a game designer. The player should be directly involved with the action, they should be the one doing the cool things, not entering arbitrary button sequences to unlock cutscenes where a cool thing happens.

[Jolt_TH]

There doesn't need to be any QTE's or mini cutscenes. All you need is a button on the controller that is mapped to "ride" or "commandeer" or something, then you just get a little on screen prompt (like when near a light dash chain) that you CAN do it. That way you also get alternate paths nor do you HAVE to ride said enemy. No slow down QTE's and Sonic just does a cool little animation IN GAME jumps on and then gets on with the level. Dio is right, for TOO long we have seen Sonic do loads of cool stuff, and we haven't actually made him do it, it's all been cutscene or QTE or on rails gimmick

[Tani Coyote]

There doesn't need to be any QTE's or mini cutscenes. All you need is a button on the controller that is mapped to "ride" or "commandeer" or something, then you just get a little on screen prompt (like when near a light dash chain) that you CAN do it. That way you also get alternate paths nor do you HAVE to ride said enemy. No slow down QTE's and Sonic just does a cool little animation IN GAME jumps on and then gets on with the level. Dio is right, for TOO long we have seen Sonic do loads of cool stuff, and we haven't actually made him do it, it's all been cutscene or QTE or on rails gimmick

 

I suppose with some tweaking it could work, sort of like a slightly more complex homing attack. It'd basically be akin to Super Smash Bros. in requiring a mere combination of two buttons, or as proposed a quick response to a prompt.

 

I reasoned some sort of mini-cutscene could be cool but I guess this works too.

[-blank-]

Yeah, I'm of the mind that you really don't need QTE or mini-cutscenes for this. A simple button prompt that still keeps the gameplay running I'd be okay with though

[Jolt_TH]

Exactly, it would work like the light dash, where pressing the button without being close enough or without the screen prompt would do nothing, no need for multi button combo's. it'll just get too confusing in a speed based platformer

[Badnik Zero]

I wrote something on the last page. I said the homing should be able to do no damage, in which case Sonic grabs the enemy, leading to a number of moves from that point. Aside from combat moves one of those would be "ride".

 

Say we keep the regular homing, call this "homing grab", and it's activated by pressing any shoulder button during the homing attack. Sonic could combo off moves with a variety of awesome animations, or commandeer a Badnik.

Edited March 29, 2013 by American Ristar

[Tani Coyote]

I wrote something on the last page. I said the homing should be able to do no damage, in which case Sonic grabs the enemy, leading to a number of moves from that point. Aside from combat moves one of those would be "ride".

 

Say we keep the regular homing, call this "homing grab", and it's activated by pressing any shoulder button during the homing attack. Sonic could combo off moves with a variety of awesome animations, or commandeer a Badnik.

 

This sounds pretty fun, actually. Could lead to all sorts of nonstop hilarity as the poor thing tries to shake you off while you ride it through a death course quickstepping it out of the way. The sheer amount of panic it would be in...

 

Or make use of their weapons to terrorise the other Badniks, in a manner not seen since Sonic the Comic's days.

[Chaos Warp]

I've said it ever since Heroes came out with "spam homing attack to win" at the apex of the game's design: Z-Targeting.

But how would Z-targeting work at high speeds though? In Sonic, you approach an enemy and dispatch them quickly without breaking game flow, you don't strafe around them and spend time. How would the Z-targeting work in a high speed game like that?

[Tani Coyote]

But how would Z-targeting work at high speeds though? In Sonic, you approach an enemy and dispatch them quickly without breaking game flow, you don't strafe around them and spend time. How would the Z-targeting work in a high speed game like that?

 

As I've said before, ultimately Sonic's speed is his weakness as much as his strength; his levels yield less per square inch than a slower character's, and his combat system is likewise going to be burdened. The sad fact is the human eye can only register so much before it all becomes a blur... and this is ultimately what needs to be factored in. Dragon Ball Z isn't entirely full of it when they say characters are moving so fast you can't keep track of them.

 

So, the current automatic targeting we've got with the homing attack really is the best way to keep things without harming the speed of gameplay. Where we can definitely improve is the earlier suggestion we make the homing attack lose its attack power and instead make it a vehicle to break out a variety of combos of your choice.

[Potada]

You know, an example I just though of:

 

Sonic comes across an alternate path, possibly leading to a secret bonus stage or lots of ring containers. The problem? Spikes. An ocean of them on the floor and walls leading to said goodies. What's a hedgehog to do?

 

Oh, lookie! It's Mr. Buzz Bomber! Maybe he'll give us a ride... >: D

Edited April 2, 2013 by Potada

[Diogenes]

But how would Z-targeting work at high speeds though? In Sonic, you approach an enemy and dispatch them quickly without breaking game flow, you don't strafe around them and spend time. How would the Z-targeting work in a high speed game like that?

Well, I think the best solution is to not go so damn fast.

If Sonic is going to be more than Run Forward: The Game, he needs to do less Run Forward and more Other Things.

[MegasonicZX]

I just thought of an idea of how the riding gimmick can be played out in sonic, remember the second episode of sonic x where sonic is going to rescue cream and at one point he commandeers those security camera's to shoot at the other camera's. Well what if you apply this situation in a room of egg robo's where some have shields and other things hindering your homing attack or other moves. You can choose to take them all out individually but it will slow you down quite a bit or you could get on top of an open one tear its laser gun off and shoot at the surrounding ones while on top of its head ending with sonic jumping off of that robot while throwing the gun at it to destroy it (of course you don't have to destroy all the enemies, just clear a path so you can get through. But it will be worth more points).

 

Also, there could be a section in the game where you will want to be stealthy. For, instance there is a long path around you littered with eggman search bots and they will call out other egg robos if you stop them and close off the way to an alternate path that will get you through the level faster but if you fail you will have to take the normal route. You have to ride and destroy some of the search bots to get through but not all since some will probably not notice you.

[Chaos Warp]

Well, I think the best solution is to not go so damn fast.

If Sonic is going to be more than Run Forward: The Game, he needs to do less Run Forward and more Other Things.

Even so, even at like SA1 levels of speed I still believe Z-Targeting would be impractical. Even if Sonic is slowed down a bit, locking onto and strafing around enemies would just break the pace anyway.

[Jolt_TH]

Then drop the z-target and have your average auto-target from unleashed onward, then you could just ignore them, homing attack them or have a one button "ride" option

[Tani Coyote]

Really the homing attack can at most reliably be expected to lock onto one or two enemies at a time depending on which direction you're facing. Sonic can't really afford to slow down, so he doesn't get the luxury of locking on and switching to his heart's leisure; he has to make split-second choices of targets in midair, which limits him to two or three at the most as to where he's going next. Provided the homing attack target locks on quickly enough this won't present issues.

 

Though it really illustrates that for various enemies the homing attack should lose its one-hit kill capability and instead lead into a variety of techniques. It will if nothing else switch up the number of possibilities each playthrough, thus making it feel more fresh.

[Chaos Warp]

http://sonicfangameshq.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134186&postcount=13

 

I was reading through SFGHQ threads and I found this post, I thought it was relevant. 

 

No, you can have a combat system in a platformer. All it makes it is a platformer with a combat system. In the case of Sonic...well Mario is a platform-heavy game, but i think even it would benefit from a combat system better than Sonic would. Why? Well, because Sonic doesn't fight. He rolls into a ball and slams into things. Combat system? Not so much. If i was in charge of designing combat for a Sonic game, assuming I was required to anyway, i would do something a bit different. 

Think about it -- in what animated cutscene, drawn or CGI, have you ever seen sonic waste time continuously pounding enemies with homing attacks? He usually just either a) rolls into a ball and goes through the bastard, or quickly out maneuvers the robots, causing them to either kill themselves, their friends, or be killed by their friends. Well, since they are going for something new, it might as well be depicted in a way that suits sonic.I believe what would be better for them would be something along the lines of a "rock-paper-scissors" moveset. Something where doing the correct move on the correct enemy will quickly dispatch of the enemy and allow you to keep moving without the hindrance of health bars and pesky invincibility times to prevent homing attack spam. 

Imagine sonic having a moveset like such:
Spoiler:

Grounded

- Spindash (revs into a ball and goes in a direction rully fast)
- Sonic Movement (Evades gunfire and attacks. does an agile, quick movement in your direction, going under low hanging objects as he approaches them. Animation is dependent on whether or not you're colliding with a damaging attack. Cancels itself into his regular movement, and can allow quick changes in velocity. Amount of an angle you can change to is dependent on your current speed. (in other words, faster you go, the less direction you can get out of this move.

- Blur Attack **Homing attack button while during Sonic Movement ** (Sonic will do a short-range attack, resembling a short-range burst. Destroys lighter units, disarms heavier ones, disorients and confuses giant ones. Small Range, only lasts a short second.)

Aerial
- Insta Shield (sonic spins multiple times faster than he already is, creating local winds and force that both increase his attack range and deflect attacks. Hitting an enemy will cause sonic to bounce vertically. )

-Homing Attack (sonic bursts out, diagonally downwards, in the direction of an enemy. Upon hitting the enemy, holding down the button will let you go through the enemy.)

-Homing Perch (While doing a homing attack, let go of the button. When Sonic collides with an enemy, he will stop for a short second, and hop off again in the direction of your choosing. The kickoff from the jump will kill, stun, or not affect the enemy, depending on its weight class. The jump gives more horizontal distance than vertical.)

Thinking off the top of my head here. 

Here, sonic has 1) an attack that affects enemies around him, 2) an attack that quickly closes gaps between him and his enemy, and 3) a maneuver that gets him under and away things. Also, 4) a simple attack that both a) keeps you safe and makes simple head hoppers way easier to dispatch.


Now, note that all of these dont necessarily have to be attack techniques. They can very well be used to interact with gimmicks, pick up momentum, and maneuver the level, respectfully. However, if you really want to have a "battle system" withouthaving one, you can simply take these moves and give them meaning based on your enemy. 

Instead of enemies with huge, annoying health bars on multiple parts of their bodies, allow the combat to be more "platformer" based. Take sonic's abilities from being simple, predictable moves, and turn them into enemy specific attacks. When the correct move is used, Sonic triggers a different move and dispatches the enemy in a quick, pretty and stylish manner. You know, kind of like a QTE...but minus the button presses. The move itself is the trigger for the event. This way, you can take these 4 moves, and make them Sonic's offense, defense, and platforming tools all in one, as well as making killing badnicks (that aren't simple head hoppers) a bit more interesting.



Well, examples.
Spoiler:

Egg Pawn - usual bastard with a lance. Any damaging attack will finish him.

Egg Pawn w/Stone Shield - Frontal rolling without significant momentum wont kill him, but will break the shield. Any additive force will still OHKO, be it a spindash or Insta Shield. Any homing attack will kill. Blur Attack will strip enemy of shield.

Medium Egg Pawn w/Metal Shield - Heavier. Insta Shield and Homing Attacks are parried. Blur Attack causes sonic to run around the enemy creating a small tornado. This strips the enemy of its shield and tosses the pawn at other enemies in range, destroying them. In the case of stronger enemies, the projectile enemy has crushes defenses. Spindash still overpowers with impact and OHKO's. 

Large enemy with weakspot in back - all attacks other than weakspot exploits are repelled. Either attack from the back, or somersault under his legs to trigger an event that lands the enemy on it's back, allowing for an easy hop kill.

Heavy Armor enemy with sensor laser - Impenetrable. Homing Attacking the head will result in the enemy shielding itself. Uses a tracking laser to lock-on and blast sonic. Using the Blur on the enemy will make sonic run circles around it causing an overflow, and it's defenses will go down, allowing for a Homing Attack finish. 

Giant slow bastards with shields and laser guns - Always fights in pairs. Impenetrable. All offensive attacks are parried. Coordinates attacks with one another. Dodge during attacks, and Homing Perch one of their heads to force one to kill the other. Same tactic with solo one will cause a quick scene leading to a suicide.

Large groups of enemies with guns - Sonic Movement through the bursts of gunfire, and plow through the bastards.

Weak Enemy with plasma barrier- All attacks will result in you being stunned and losing your rings. Using an Insta Shield will burst the plasma barrier, allowing it to be attacked.

Stronger Enemy with plasma barrier - Same as other, except Insta Shielding the barrier will only briefly remove the barrier. Insta-Shield and then homing attack while in the air to kill.

A small hint icon system or something would make this way easier, that gives hints of what to do and when. Of course these examples aren't all that hot. Mix those in with some not so specific enemy types that encourage use of your other abilities.

But you get where im going with this? Basically, instead of a large list of moves that are used to overpower the enemy, you are given a small, moldable amount, and maneuvering around the enemy is the key aspect. With a hint system, the type of attack you're required to use will be obvious. This way, the game can still be a platformer at heart. You spend the whole game learning the physics and how to control sonic, and this is even reflected in some of the enemies you face as well as bosses. Your whole moveset is given to you at the beginning -- your playing skill helps you to get through stages with it, and it's function changes itself depending on what situation's you're dealing with. Afterall, Sonic stages were all about being immersed in the location.

Add in a "Stylish Ranking System" (similar to SA2), and finding the quickest, coolest looking ways of dispatching all the enemies in combos AND time attacking the stage could add a whole feel to the endgame content

One more thing -- I think that if something like this was to be done, there should be a button (im thinking a trigger button) that would trigger a "slower" sonic speed and "faster" sonic speed. It doesn't change Sonic's acceleration at all, but instead puts a cap on his speed to "regular" platforming movement speeds. It isn't needed, but i think the faster sonic gets, the easier it is for precise platforming segments to get annoying. (On inclines, the speed will normally accelerate, but outside the influence of slopes sonic should slowly begin to decelerate if the trigger isn't held down. Just something i was thinking about.)



well, all of this is just speculation. Not like the game needs a combat system anyway, its Sonic. I just think it'd look cool if they did it right though.

__________________

 

 

 

Thoughts?

Edited July 24, 2013 by Chaos Warp

[azoo]

I'd probably super-simplify this (going off of SLoW's control scheme (Wii U Pro Controller)).

 

General movement:

Left stick - Movement

B button - Jump

A / LZ button - Spin Dash / Roll

Y button - Homing Attack

X button - Ring Dash

RZ button - Parkour mode

Right stick - Camera

 

Aerial - specific movement:

B button - Double Jump

A / LZ button - Bounce Attack

RZ button - Jump Dash

 

Just have the homing attack be assigned to one button. Press the button to hit enemies on the ground and in air. Some enemies have crazier attack/movement patterns, or cannot be hit with a homing attack, so the best way to attack them is to normally jump into them, or roll.

 

Outside of that (and the normal SLoW setup), I can't really see any other idea as to how Sonic and combat work that well together without over-complicating it, or making it just /not/ fit a game like Sonic at all. 

Edited July 24, 2013 by New Age Retro Azoonky