Sonic character's Hidden Depths

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But what are the dimensions is what I was asking. Not just character traits.

 

Whenever people say a character is one or two dimensional, I question that they actually know what those dimensions are.

Edited February 8, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

But what are the dimensions is what I was asking. Not just character traits.

 

Whenever people say a character is one or two dimensional, I question that they actually know what those dimensions are.

 

What do you mean by "dimensions"? Dimensions in this case are essentially character traits so I don't really know what you're referring to.

[Anti Alias]

What do you mean by "dimensions"? Dimensions in this case are essentially character traits so I don't really know what you're referring to.

 

Dimensions would be in the case, justifications for the character's behavior and values, most of these justifications come from back-story and past event's.

 

The reader doesn't always need to agree with the character morals or decisions but the most important thing is that the character should believe themselves, that they are doing the thing that are justified for them (or rather, makes sense for them based in their backstory and past experiences)

 

a deep character has his behavior and values justified to itself by it's past events and back-story.

 

I mean, why is Sonic good? why he hates injustice? why he hates seeing people crying? did he lost something or someone important in his past that molded his character? what would be Sonic's justifications for his values?

 

another source of "depth" would be internal conflicts of values.

 

values are anything that the characters believe themselves to be the truth, for example, one kind of value would be "what's the most important thing in the world to you?" if a character like Sonic, for example would say that two things he values the most (eg. his love for freedom vs the love for his friends) conflict with each other then he has an internal conflict and he will not act predictably, but rather will struggle between the two things that he values the most and oppose each other.

 

the ambition of the characters comes from their values, values that oppose each other makes their ambitions change, changing what's important for the character altogether.

 

this is just a small part of what makes characters interesting...

Edited February 8, 2013 by Anti Alias

[Kuzu]

Dimensions would be in the case, justifications for the character's behavior and values, most of these justifications come from back-story and past event's.

 

The reader doesn't always need to agree with the character morals or decisions but the most important thing is that the character should believe themselves, that they are doing the thing that are justified for them (or rather, makes sense for them based in their backstory and past experiences)

 

a deep character has his behavior and values justified to itself by it's past events and back-story.

 

I mean, why is Sonic good? why he hates injustice? why he hates seeing people crying? did he lost something or someone important in his past that molded his character? what would be Sonic's justifications for his values?

 

another source of "depth" would be internal conflicts of values.

 

values are anything that the characters believe themselves to be the truth, for example, one kind of value would be "what's the most important thing in the world to you?" if a character like Sonic, for example would say that two things he values the most (eg. his love for freedom vs the love for his friends) conflict with each other then he has an internal conflict and he will not act predictably, but rather will struggle between the two things that he values the most and oppose each other.

 

the ambition of the characters comes from their values, values that oppose each other makes their ambitions change, changing what's important for the character altogether.

 

this is just a small part of what makes characters interesting...

 

 

Ok, if that's the case then, then I still stand by my statement that Sonic is mostly two dimensional as far as character motivations and character depth is concerned.

 

 

I mean, we have no idea about his past, why he hates injustice so much, what motivates him to stop the bad guys other than the fact that they're bad. He has no ambitions other than just running around and going on adventures, and he never doubts his beliefs or values as far an internal conflict is concerned. Not that I think Sonic is a bad character because he lacks these traits, but if we truly want to see how much depth he has, then I think those are questions we should try to answer.

[Jolt_TH]

I had an interesting thought while reading this, make of it what you will.

Because sonic is so obsessed with freedom and can be quite self obsessed I imagined in my head that sonic took over the world in order for everyone to "be free"

A bit like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan when Simon is forcing everyone to leave their underground cities because he thinks that's what they want, it takes someone else to fight him and explain to him that people might not want to leave, and that in fact it makes him as bad as the guy they overthrew.

Like I said make of it what you will, just a random thought. Pr maybe something like this could happen in game, some people are what sonic would call "trapped" and he tries to save them only to realise that they actually chose to live like that?

[Spin Attaxx]

Doesn't Sonic fight injustice and try to stop the bad guys because he thinks it'll be fun?

 

In fact, doesn't "It Doesn't Matter" say "it doesn't matter who's wrong or who's right"? And doesn't he say in Sonic Adventure 2 that he's a guy who loves adventure?

 

Sounds like Sonic's main motivation for stopping villains is not because they're bad, but because he'd have fun doing so.

[Semi-colon e]

Doesn't Sonic fight injustice and try to stop the bad guys because he thinks it'll be fun?

 

In fact, doesn't "It Doesn't Matter" say "it doesn't matter who's wrong or who's right"? And doesn't he say in Sonic Adventure 2 that he's a guy who loves adventure?

 

Sounds like Sonic's main motivation for stopping villains is not because they're bad, but because he'd have fun doing so.

 

He does also hate injustice, like in Colours where he says he's gonna mess Eggman up because he's messing others up. In Generations he's also pretty concerned with finding his friends so he has heroic intentions there too. Even in the original games, his motivation is to save his animal friends from being trapped in badniks or the cages at the end of the bosses, he's always been a very heroic character, even if he finds it fun anyway.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Semi-colon e

[Amomynous]

@diogenes

Here are a few off the dome:

 

He has smugly self-entitled himself as 'the worlds fastest hedgehog', he openly professes how cool he thinks himself:"The planet as cool and blue as me" (SA2)! 

 

He cockily expects Chip to agree that he is pleasant on the eyes. At the end of Sonic Heroes (and colors) Sonic has to be persuaded to offer praise for the assistance of his comrades. 

 

Im sure there are more.

 

Heck, since the classics Sonic can properly be said to be overweening:

(1.)Adorning a self-satisfied smile:  

(2.) wagging his flippant finger

(3.) sarcastically mocking the player while in idle animation

(4.) insultingly Impatient

 

Oh, and see Vertekins post as well.

Sonic gloating to Eggman in the first cutscene of Unleashed and consequently getting captured? 

 

I think I already put this in 'the headcanon topic' ; always saw Marine as a textbook case of reverse snobbery. The poor girl knows people think of her as annoying and getting in their way and is desperate to prove herself, so she tries to act authoritative, tough and confident, she causes a big fuss when her friends try to relegate when her sidelines because it really hurts to be reminded of this, it causes her facade to falter somewhat.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Mysterics

[Kareemadeem]

He's trusting to the point of naivety, incompetent at dealing with romantic emotions, easy to goad into unwittingly helping the villain, fickle, impatient, and overconfident.

 

See, he ain't so perfect.

"Incompetent at dealing with romantic emotions" well what about the ship-teasing between him and Blaze according to this thread?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

"Incompetent at dealing with romantic emotions" well what about the ship-teasing between him and Blaze according to this thread?

Well to be fair, ship-teasing doesn't really have any effect on whether a person is good at dealing with romance. I mean anyone can see the ship tease between Ranma and Akane from Ranma 1/2, but you wouldn't say either of them were good at dealing with romantic emotions now would you?

[Your Vest Friend]

It's up for interpretation, really. Personally I think calling it outright deliberate ship tease is overestimating it a bit, considering how the two characters are from a solo perspective. 

[Anti Alias]

you know, being good at dealing with romance and acting as if the character were attracted to another one aren't mutually exclusive things.

if all characters who could have a thing for another character were all exceptionally good at romancing people, then we would kill all the romantic tension of all fiction, its the reason actually for why characters attracted to each other usually act hesitant as heck with each other... they want but cannot act on their feelings, they are ultimately not good at romance.

[costle]

One flaw of sonic's character that I feel rounds him out is his ostentatious self-absorption. Although it has always been there Sonic Colors (and to a lesser extent Generations) explored it more-so than any other release. The scene after sonic defeats Planet Wisps' boss and he smugly  fancys himself to a inanimate scrapped robot suggests that Sonic is (dare I say) narcissistic. 

 

I have always interpreted Tails as being the most pure-hearted (main?) character in the series, more-so even than Sonic. For me Sonic needs Tails just as much as Tails needs him. Tails stops Sonic from sinking further into self-absorption by being a person outside of Sonic's self that he is deeply concerned about.

 

And then you realise theres a character named Shadow the Hedgehog who makes Sonic look like a humble gentleman in comparison. Shadow literally has a god complex compared to Sonic.

Edited March 1, 2013 by costle

[Tani Coyote]

I said in the OP that I would also elaborate on Unleashed and Colours. Admittedly that completely slipped my mind due to being sidetracked by other things in RL. So without further ado...

 

Sonic Unleashed

 

When faced with Chip's dilemma over his memory loss, you initially get the impression that the main reason for Sonic offering to help the little guy get his memory back is out of guilt that it was likely him falling on top of him was the cause of the issue in the first place. Indeed, even the game's instruction manual states this;

 

Much later when Chip finally gains his memory and learns of his purpose, he reasons that Sonic no longer as any 'obligation' to tag along with him because he's already accomplished the thing that was his reason to allow Chip to tag along in the first place. He also states that putting the world back together is his responsibility as Light Gaia and one he seems to feel is his responsibility to accomplish alone.

 

Sonic is having none of that and states that he doesn't even need a reason to help out a friend. This speaks droves of his innate sense of loyalty and kindness. He was not prepared to just allow Chip to fly away and shoulder such a huge responsibility by himself. Yet again, just like Sonic telling the Knights in SatBK that they have a responsibility to protect Camelot's citizens is a clever nod to SRA in which he reasons to Blaze that keeping a level head is imperative to her carrying out her duty as princess, this Unleashed example is a clever nod to the first Sonic Rush (Elaboration in the OP of this topic) in which he tells Blaze how tough it is to bear a burden on your shoulders without anyone else to help you out.

 

Sonic Colours

 

In this game, Sonic appears to acknowledge how opportunistic and devious Eggman really is and as a result, his defensiveness of Tails makes a pretty prominent appearance. He was fairly frantic when Eggman managed to put the kid under mind control and was torn over the prospect of being forced to fight him;

 

Also note how willing he was to attack Eggman within seconds of Tails being struck. One must wonder what he would've done had Tails not gotten in the way. He was at least pretty angry-sounding when he demanded Eggman to tell him what he had done to him which strongly suggests that he would've really laid into him physically given the chance.

 

Sonic is also very visibly protective of Tails when the Egg Nega Wisp makes an appearance;

 

Notw that this is the first thing Sonic does when Eggman shows himself and the arm he holds out in front of Tails in a defensive gesture never even moves even as he gestures with the other arm. Sonic's main priority throughout this entire cutscene is Tails' safety and he only states after Tails has been sent to safety that taking out Eggman is the only thing he has left to do. He clearly didn't want to put Tails under any risks at all during the fight.

 

Very nice analysis!

 

Really says a lot about Sonic's care for the kid, actually. You will be hard pressed to find a more protective and loyal friend.

 

Makes sense, though. As far as we can see, they're the only family each one has got. Their bond's been forged through blood, sweat and tears, and nothing can tear it apart.

 

((As a random note I give kudos to Sega for not pulling the "willpower lets you resist mind control" card))

[Kuzu]

((As a random note I give kudos to Sega for not pulling the "willpower lets you resist mind control" card))

 

But they already pulled that with Unleashed and the Werehog.

[Sega DogTagz]

But they already pulled that with Unleashed and the Werehog.

 

Wasn't that more of a dark influence then a flat out mind control issue though? Dark Gaia possession lead to people wallowing in their own despair, not falling under the beck and whim of the beast itself.

[Tani Coyote]

But they already pulled that with Unleashed and the Werehog.

 

 

Wasn't that more of a dark influence then a flat out mind control issue though? Dark Gaia possession lead to people wallowing in their own despair, not falling under the beck and whim of the beast itself.

 

Yeah, I think that may be part of it. I think Sonic still had negativity in him but channeled it better than anyone else. He seemed far more angry when in his Werehog form by far. Anger as an emotion can be used for both positive and negative ends, despite objectively being a negative emotion. I presume that's why he didn't go crazy like most other people did.

 

Plus, it sounds like Dark Gaia just amplifies the negative emotions you already have. If Sonic had none to begin with... well, it would have no effect. Prof. Pickle's intern was probably eager for a date, hence why he was forceful with dancing with Amy. That ice cream guy probably had some depression issues beneath his smiley facade (makes sense for a guy selling a super fattening treat). That medical student was likely stressed due to his coursework and hence became very negative, etc.

 

As another note, Unleashed is generally seen as a half-full game. Colors and Generations are seen as far better usually.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Kuzu]

So I came up with this the other day on another forum, and I figured this was the best topic to post it on this site. 

 

People will just look at Sonic and think he just says snarky one liners and smashes robots. Now while that is a large part of his character, there's a lot more to him than that.

First I want to mention the philosopher of Fredrich Nietzsche and his concept of the "Ubermensch".Essentially, an Ubermensch is someone who rejects the norms of their world and follows their own personal set of rules. Now let's take a look at the chorus of Sonic's theme song in the Adventure series:
 

The song outright states Sonic doesn't care much for what's right or wrong and that he'll do what he'll do what he feels is natural. And of course this memorable line from Black Knight:
 

This is response to being told that slaying King Arthur would brand him a nation wide criminal, and that'd he would be hunted for life. Sonic displays no hesitation to this action, and makes well on this conviction.

A popular belief is that Sonic isn't a hero because its the right thing to do, but rather by circumstance and is more of an adrenaline junkie. The quotes above seem to support this theory; Sonic doesn't care about good or evil, and just wants to live his life with as much excitement as possible, saving the world is secondary to having a good time.

Now this isn't to say that Sonic is some type of anarchist, he obviously has his virtues; he still hates oppression, seeing people cry, and cares deeply for his friends and that's also what motivates him to stop the likes of Eggman. Living his life by his own rules plus his virtues has made him essentially the champion of the cast; when the cast is all together, Sonic is usually the one who's leading them, not because Sonic possess any particular skills necessary to lead(In fact, he's probably not fit for any official leading position) but because his personality just makes people gravitate towards him.

Now what was the point of this topic? Well I wanted to know how we can utilize this aspect of Sonic to show off different sides to him? What can we do to challenge his beliefs and learn how strong his conviction truly is.

Now I don't want Sonic to change or anything, In fact I prefer him the way he is. But I want to see this aspect of his character challenged and acknowledged more often. How do the characters who don't gravitate towards Sonic feel about his attitude?

Maybe you can explore Sonic & Knuckles` friendship and show strong it is by showing just how different these two actually are; Sonic lives his life with no responsibilities and outright rejects anything that tries to make him change otherwise while Knuckles has lived his entire life with nothing but responsibilities and resents that Sonic takes his position and power for granted.

Show just how similar and different Sonic & Eggman are: Sonic doesn't try to force his views on anyone but people just seem to follow him anyway while Eggman forcibly tries to subjugate the world to his worldly view and is met with opposition on all sides. Eggman, who has an ideal vision of the world and wants to share it has his plans constantly foiled by someone who could careless what the world thought of him.

Finally add some weight to Sonic & Shadow's rivalry; both of them are extremely similar in their views, they both reject the views of those around them and fight tooth and nail for their causes. Neither care about good or evil, and fight against anything that stands in their way, however this includes each other.


Suddenly a seemingly simply character gets a lot more complex. This isn't me saying that Sonic is better than the rest of the cast tho, he is merely one character in a cast of colorful critters who all have their nuances that make them unique from each other. I'm just giving my own personal view on the character and what could be done with him in future games should the writing improve. So feel free to say anything. Dislike, hate it, whatever.

 

 

 

So what do you guys think.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Burnt Ash]

I like the Übermensch comparison. Not exactly how I'd go about connecting that with Sonic, but it's an interesting comparison regardless.

[Diogenes]

Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I'd like to see the series touch on. I think Sonic can actually be a pretty interesting character, they just...never do anything with him. For someone who's supposed to be rebellious and edgy, for someone who's theme song is about rejecting traditional notions of right and wrong and just following his own heart...they keep making him this really safe, nice hero who tries to act cool.

I want to see him as this weird little anomaly. Someone with the power to change the direction of the world, who follows no rules but those he makes himself. He's got a good heart, he's always going to fight to protect the weak and the innocent and the good, but he's not always going to do what we expect of a hero on the way there.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Also, how can we fit consequences into his actions and traits? Because he just never seems to have enough of them to have an affect.

 

Some may not like Sonic to change, but I'd say that if we want him more rounded as a character instead of a static one then we don't exactly have a lot of options. Don't turn him into a whole new character in the process, but make him a character who at least attempts to learns from his actions, mistakes, and the consequences thereof and while he makes his own rules those rules can create conflict with others that could lead to such consequences and mistakes.

 

That's probably just the writer in me talking, but just can't seem to stress giving him flaws as a character because they aren't being played with well enough to make him even more interesting than he is now.

[Kuzu]

I don't think Sonic needs to so much change, but have him actually affect the world around him; in both good and bad ways. Like Dio said, Sonic  should be an anomaly, someone who no matter where he goes, something is stirred up. Maybe he's gotten an entire town against him, maybe he inadvertently caused an up rising.

[Diogenes]

Yeah, if Sonic himself has to stay mostly the same (which he kinda does, since they're going to keep pumping out games for as long as they can, and there's a limit to how much he can reasonably be changed), I think you want to focus on how he ends up being a catalyst for other people changing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But an anomaly is something that is difficult to classify, a deviation of a common order. It's practically an incarnation of change or else you'd be able to classify it easily if it didn't. He stirs up areas, he stirs up characters, and I think it would be a decent addition if he stirs up himself or gets stirred up by something of his own or someone else's doing.

 

But like I said, it shouldn't be taken as a license to change him into something completely different, but it shouldn't mean we should neglect slight elements of it. Similar to how he was able to get pissed off in a rare show of rage in SA2 when Shadow indirectly framed him for crimes he didn't commit compared to, or how despite generally being on the side of good he was willing to go against a well intentioned extremist who had virtually little malice compared to other foes in the Black Knight. A sense of growth, if you will, to add more to that anomaly stirring things up.

Edited June 5, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Diogenes]

But an anomaly is something that is difficult to classify, a deviation of a common order. It's practically an incarnation of change or else you'd be able to classify it easily if it didn't.

I disagree, I don't think an anomaly needs to change itself; it's something strange, something that stands apart from things around it. Sonic can be a force for change because he represents something outside the norm and he's got the strength (both physically and in his presence) to assert himself over the norm, but I don't think it necessarily follows that this is turned inward.