Do you prefer Sonic games that are short, but fun, or games that are long, but often tedious?

[Kuzu]

I've said none of that. I've said, if something is crucial to the design of the game in as much that you would fundamentally change the game's nature by removing it outright, that element ceases to be padding and becomes a relevant element to the game as the game currently exists.

My argument doesn't hinge on whether or not it was needed, it doesn't matter whether or not the element is bad, it doesn't matter if the game would be better for it, it doesn't matter if you yourself like it. It's still important enough to the experience of playing that game as we know it- for better or worse- to not be reduced to the likes of an unnecessary mini-game of some sorts. Big in SA1 isn't padding. The Chao Gardens are. Knuckles in SA2 isn't padding; the Kart mini-game is. The difference in these elements is clear regardless of any other qualitative characteristics they possess.

(For the record, you could remove Silver's ball puzzle and have mostly the same game, thus I'd consider it padding under my argument. However, you cannot remove Silver outright and expect mostly the same result because he is too entrenched in the game by design. I don't even know how you can argue otherwise.)

I never said Big & Knuckles themselves are padding, I said the way they play and what their levels revolve around is. Just because something isn't crucial to the overall game doesn't automatically make it padding, padding by definition is putting elements into the game with the sole purpose of making the player go longer than what's necessary in other words make you feel like you're achieving something when you aren't.

I don't care if it's something crucial to the game; Having levels revolve around finding three items that you can only get one at a time, in a level about 3x as big as you are with an extremely cryptic hint system is padding.

[Stritix]

But Sonic is a franchise that was built on speed and beautiful environments.

No it wasn't. Sonic is a franchise that was built around pinball based physics with fast platforming.

[Frogging101]

So, in Sonic, I do see some of this in Sonic Unleashed and in Sonic Adventure 1-2. Some features are just there to take your time. Fun as they can be, they end up being bothersome due to being obvious obligatory blocks.

EDIT: Oh, not the gameplay styles. I was thinking of the medals and Chao Garden.

The thing about the Chao Garden is that it's totally optional. You don't even have to visit it once to complete the game. It's just an fun diversion; it may be "padding" to increase the longevity of the game but in this case that isn't a bad thing, because it adds more stuff to do without getting in the way or being bothersome.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Frogging101

[Your Vest Friend]

The thing about the Chao Garden is that it's totally optional. You don't even have to visit it once to complete the game. It's just an fun diversion; it may be "padding" to increase the longevity of the game but in this case that isn't a bad thing, because it adds more stuff to do without getting in the way or being bothersome.

It wasn't in SA2 if you wanted to unlock everything in the game...

[Uphex]

As long as whatever extra feature, gameplay style, minigame, ect isn't forced upon me to beat a game then I don't care how much padding they put in a game. It's alternate gameplay styles that are forced that really get under my skin because honestly, you don't buy a sonic game for them. When someone buys a sonic game, they want sonic gameplay.

An exception is super sonic bosses.

[Nepenthe]

I never said Big & Knuckles themselves are padding, I said the way they play and what their levels revolve around is. Just because something isn't crucial to the overall game doesn't automatically make it padding, padding by definition is putting elements into the game with the sole purpose of making the player go longer than what's necessary in other words make you feel like you're achieving something when you aren't.

I don't care if it's something crucial to the game; Having levels revolve around finding three items that you can only get one at a time, in a level about 3x as big as you are with an extremely cryptic hint system is padding.

The only thing absolutely necessary to any Sonic game to function as a game that doesn't intrinsically add length is Sonic himself, meaning everything that isn't Sonic and his basic gameplay under your definition is padding. Not only is that way too broad and subjective as to be useless as a definition, but again, it completely ignores the objective design of the game which is a far more useful and universal a qualifier of what is and isn't shouldn't be classified as padding.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Dizcrybe]

Wouldn't that just be the same thing?

Not necessarily. They don't have to be especially long stages ,and you wouldn't be collecting stuff just to unlock the rest of the levels; they'd all be there, waiting for you to go through them.

Let's say you have 10 zones with 3 acts each. Now, let's say every act takes about five minutes to complete normally. That alone would be 150 minutes, 2 and a half hours. Now, let's say Tails and Knuckles were playable. That'd be 7 and a half hours.

Of course, there's a lot of other stuff to factor in: special stages, bosses, making sure Tails and Knuckles aren't just reskins of Sonic, making the levels feel different when playing as them to reduce tedium (and making the levels in general unique from one another), but those would be the blueprints.

[Diogenes]

I figure the moment the story gets dedicated to your gameplay is the moment your gameplay ceases to be padding and becomes relevant to the overall experience of playing it, forget the actual overall time spent with these different characters.

I mean, yeah, I guess you technically could somehow have SA2 functional as SA2, somehow, with only Sonic playable (no Shadow for the squeamish), and yet not change anything else about the rest of the game. I suppose. I'd just call you a shitty designer the moment you attempted to do it.

5/6 of the playable characters in SA2 could've believably had Sonic-like gameplay (Eggman is admittedly a problem in this particular case), and I think the vast majority of people would be okay with that, and not consider it filler.

And I don't think it's not padding just because they built the game around it. That just means they're building the game around padding. We've heard about Unleashed that the werehog exists, at least to some extent, because the daytime levels take too much time/energy to make, and the game would be very short if it were just them. So the werehog exists in part to pad out the playtime. That doesn't stop being true just because they made it about half the game and wrote the story around it.

[Nepenthe]

As I said to Ragna, one of the ulterior points of most every other playable character we've had, regardless of whether they're genre-roulette or not, is to simply pad out the length of the game because the series gameplay in any form doesn't lend itself to naturally-long running times if left to its own devices, nor does it depend upon other characters for functionality. I don't think this even needs to be stated by a Sonic Team official to be obvious. My own argument is that such a definition is pretty broad enough to encompass everything sans Sonic and his gameplay, thus either a better definition is needed or it'd be better to admit that "padding" isn't as inherently as awful as it's been made out to be for God knows how many years.

[Badnik Zero]

Would you rather have long boring sex, or a hot quickie on the kitchen floor.

I think the longevity of the Genesis titles tells a lot when they are more highly regarded than anything Sonic Team's done.

I don't care if a Sonic game takes me two days to beat. Fill it with features that keep me coming back for more. I am playing Dead Island right now. It's a game full of fetch quests and the same enemies over and over again. Tedious, but something's satisfying about the zombie smashing. The game could be shorter honestly. I don't know where I'm going with this, I guess I mean a fun game doesn't have to be long? Lose the padding for fuck's sake. I would trade all the padding for one more level of fun. Let's bring back the sex analogy, uh size isn't always the most important thing, it's gameplay, and I guess this metaphor requires Sonic Team to have a small penis. Reviewers would at least agree they under perform.

Edited November 27, 2012 by American Ristar

[Diogenes]

As I said to Ragna, one of the ulterior points of most every other playable character we've had, regardless of whether they're genre-roulette or not, is to simply pad out the length of the game because the series gameplay in any form doesn't lend itself to naturally-long running times if left to its own devices, nor does it depend upon other characters for functionality.

And if they're going to pad it in some way, I'd rather they pad it with something "Sonic", rather than any random idea they latched onto. At least then I'm still playing the kind of game I paid for...at least then it's extending the game along a natural course, rather than stuffing it with something entirely arbitrary.

My own argument is that such a definition is pretty broad enough to encompass everything sans Sonic and his gameplay, thus either a better definition is needed or it'd be better to admit that "padding" isn't as inherently as awful as it's been made out to be for God knows how many years.

I'd say that's a pretty accurate definition. When you're not doing the kind of thing the series is based on, there's a good chance it's padding.

[T-Min]

Sa and Sa2 were both quite long and incredibly fun games with great storylines and lots of characters.

Not really.

Even with all of the characters and alternate gameplay styles, both Adventure games are easily beaten in 5-8 hours, and ten at the longest.

We've got to remember that levels in Sonic games tend to be huge, only going by quickly because of the title character's speed. When they try to make a longer game, it usually ends up relying on a crapload of padding (see: Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Unleashed). Longevity in Sonic games usually comes less from playtime and more from replayability. Ergo, the short length of Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations, as well as that of the Adventure games and, most of all, the classics, is not really a fault. I get my money's worth from the oodles of extra content packed into each game and also from replaying the levels over and over again to improve my time or just to experiment with different paths. As far as I'm concerned, Sonic Colors and Generations are about as long as a Sonic game needs to be.

[Nepenthe]

And if they're going to pad it in some way, I'd rather they pad it with something "Sonic", rather than any random idea they latched onto. At least then I'm still playing the kind of game I paid for...at least then it's extending the game along a natural course, rather than stuffing it with something entirely arbitrary.

This is a fair point, yet doesn't really address the argument I'm making here.

When you're not doing the kind of thing the series is based on, there's a good chance it's padding.

You'd be hard-pressed to convince most people that Colors and Generations are padding in and of themselves.

[Diogenes]

You'd be hard-pressed to convince most people that Colors and Generations are padding in and of themselves.

Well, maybe my definition breaks down a bit at that point, when it's an entire game called into question. Alternatively, the main gameplay does cover some aspects of what a Sonic game should be doing, just not all of them. So it's not that it's padding, it's that it's not very good at being Sonic gameplay.

[Nepenthe]

While I'm not on board with your definition of what a Sonic game is, I'm not sure failing at your fundamental identity is particularly better than being accused of being padded.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

My philosophy is, if you need to elongate your game to meet a certain length, then at least make the sure the extended content is something meaningful that adds to the entire game, and not something that's monotonous and ultimately adds nothing to the game. In a way, yes Chao Gardens by definition are padding, but I think the definition kind of falls apart there because it's not really required to beat the entire game.

[Nepenthe]

My definition has nothing to do with whether or not the feature is optional (I bring up Silver's ball puzzle again; it's padding. Cut that shit), although most of the features of a game I would consider padding correlate highly with being optional because these tend to be the things that are least relevant to the main experience and thus can easily be cut out entirely without destroying the game anyway.

[Kuzu]

Well then we got different definitions of padding then; if I feel something is tedious, and ultimately adds nothing to a game, then I'm going to call it as such.

[Nepenthe]

Well, I personally feel the whole of Colors is pretty tedious, but again I'd be hard-pressed to call that entire game "padding" under the criteria you've supplied (well, franchise padding maybe?).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think a better term would be "filler"?

...or not, since they both kinda do the same thing.

[Kuzu]

I never denied Colors had padding, but it's not as obnoxious as back in the Adventure games or 06.

[Kiah]

To answer the question at hand, I prefer to have a Sonic game that is longer, even if it would be considered tedious. I guess I see the tedious factor an a challenge-not one I welcome, but a challenge nevertheless.

I've complained time and time again in regards to Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations regarding the length of the game, or lack of length actually. Replayability is fine, but I would like the inital playthrough to have some longevity to it. I have given these games a ton of praise, as I found both games a lot of fun, but felt that they sold itself short with content. Simply put, Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations are both sweet and short. I enjoyed them both; I just wished that there was more to enjoy in each game, especially in regards to gameplay. I was disappointed with the fact that I really felt like I didn't get my money's worth with either game.

The economic factor has already been mentioned but I want to discuss it further a bit: I mean, who wants to spend $50 or $40 on a game that can be finished within 3 to 4 hours? What I think will help add to the intial gameplay is to add more zones, more acts more challenges...not a whole bunch of silly little missions that really only serve as fillers. The last thing I want to see is another Sonic main series game released that appears to be rushed and is so short (also having a shallow story) that it can be beat within a few hours at most. I want Sega to take their time to make this next Sonic game enjoyable and exciting, yet challengable that it would take us longer than a day to beat it; giving us plenty to do in the game I think Sega had the right idea with Sonic Unleashed (say what you want about the Werehog), as it kept you busy, and for a while too.

I also agree with the others that mentioned that the preferable choice would be to have a Sonic game that is longer and fun, not tedious. Just because a game has some length to it doesn't mean that it can't be actually playable, fun and enjoyable through the whole playing time.

[Burtzman]

I would rather have short, fun games.

Most Sonic games tend to be short, especially the 2D games. Every single one of them can be beaten in a couple of hours.

My perfect length for a Sonic game = Sonic Colors if it had 2 more worlds.

[Mr. Taxi]

The 2D games aren't short.

Sure, nowadays it's really easy to say "oh well I beat them in 3 hours". When you've played them a thousand times, of course that's how it's going to be. But they were hard or, at least, harder than the 3D counterparts - and in many levels. Also, dying actually meant something - and even though my definition of padding would, too, encompass making death and Game Overs meaning too much, making them mean nothing at all also makes the game seem shorter than it could be.

So you got a game over in Sonic Colors or Generations. Shrugs. The games tell you what to do all the time and nothing of value is lost once you face it. I do believe making the games actually harder and Game Overs a big deal are measures that make the game longer without having to put in extra stuff of questionable relevance.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Palas

[Generations]

I like long Sonic games, even if they are tedious. What's the point of buying a game if you could beat it easily and quickly?