Sonic's Dark Age: How did you cope?

[SilentDoom]

I was actually going to reply to your points ArtFenix, but Dio basically beat me to it and said what I wanted to say but better and more to the point. So instead, I'm gonna go back to hyping for Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing Transformed. Have a nice day.

[ArtFenix]

Maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions; did I ever say that Generations was better than anything? I said both games have their narrative problems, and that we should raise the bar.

All you did it pull a strawman that had NOTHING to do with what I was talking about.

Oh really? These are your words aren't they?

I don't think they're much better than what we currently have.

Sure, it doesn't sound like you said adventure stories are worse than generations but it's pretty damn close to that. Adventure stories sure do have some problems but they are nowhere near as godawful as stories like in Generations. Not even close.

I'll read some other responses tomorrow if 'll have time.

[Kuzu]

Oh really? These are your words aren't they?

Sure, it doesn't sound like you said adventure stories are worse than generations but it's pretty damn close to that. Adventure stories sure do have some problems but they are nowhere near as godawful as stories like in Generations. Not even close.

I'll read some other responses tomorrow if 'll have time.

That's your opinion and it completely misses the point of what I was saying, I do not care that you think the Adventure games have the greatest writing in the series, I'm saying that we need better writing than them and what we have now.

You need to stop interpreting the slightest criticism against the Adventure games as some sort of insult that you feel the need to rebuke. I get it, you despise the current writing, I don't you repeating over when it has nothing to do with this discussion.

[Komodin]

Now this is just nonsensial bullshit. The story in generations is a sack of crap and if you think it's better than in any of the adventure games.. Well.. I'm sorry.

Oh no. How dare he imply that the Adventure titles' stories aren't perfect. That's just plain despicable...

[Heybunny]

Not really an informative post, this. But I just did what I always do. I play other games.

That said though, I spent most of the last decade really into Zelda and Assassin's Creed games, rather than Sonic.

[AlphaRuby]

I wasn't buying any Sonic game from 2005-2010 so I thought I skipped the Dark Age.

Then, earlier this year, I had the misfortune of being so curious about Sonic Genesis (having heard about it not long after I got back into the series) that I downloaded a ROM and tried it myself.

And, ugh... If you've seen my other posts on other topics, you'll know how much I despise that trainwreck.

[ArtFenix]

Oh no. How dare he imply that the Adventure titles' stories aren't perfect. That's just plain despicable...

That's not the point and I thought I've already stated why. The point is that he basically said it isn't much better than what we have now when in reality now all we have is barebones stories for little children with appropriate humor.

It is not just much worse than the adventures. It's the bottom of what could have been done. You want stories better than in the adventures? Well, that's very brave of you and overconfident because seeing what they are doing with storytelling now I don't, I CAN'T see how all of a sudden they would make something better than the adventures in terms of stories (especially since I see the adventures as pinnacle of storytelling in the series). I can only see them making something better than Colors, but for me it's still pathetic because they sure could do better than that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's not the point and I thought I've already stated why. The point is that he basically said it isn't much better than what we have now when in reality now all we have is barebones stories for little children with appropriate humor.

Barebone or complex plots does not a good story make, dude. There's a reason people find SA2 to be at least decent while ShTH and Sonic 06 are considered to be shit; likewise, there's a reason why people find Colors to be decent while Heroes is shit when it comes to it's plots. They all have their flaws, but some are much better handled than others.

It is not just much worse than the adventures. It's the bottom of what could have been done. You want stories better than in the adventures? Well, that's very brave of you and overconfident because seeing what they are doing with storytelling now I don't, I CAN'T see how all of a sudden they would make something better than the adventures in terms of stories (especially since I see the adventures as pinnacle of storytelling in the series). I can only see them making something better than Colors, but for me it's still pathetic because they sure could do better than that.

...seriously?

Dude, I don't think you've seen enough fiction out there if you believe that the Adventures are as high as we can go. Let alone realize how they could do FAR better than the Adventures if the right writers were to have their hands at the series...or if they'd stop holding the current writers on a leash in keeping things safe and simple.

I mean really, we have stories with the same elements that the Adventures titles have such as in cartoons like Nickelodeon's Avatar series, Disney's animated movies, and plenty of other cartoon works out there that handle the themes far better than the way Sonic has. And if you honestly think we can't go higher than what the Adventures set, then I think you've set the bar way too low. Compared to those such as Lion King, Hunchback of Notredame, heck even Ben 10, Samurai Jack, and various other works, the Adventures are very much mediocre in comparison.

Heck, you want video game examples? Try Megaman, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, the Paper Mario series, Legend of Zelda series, and I'm pretty sure other members can add even more to this list than I already have.

Edited November 17, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[ArtFenix]

And if you honestly think we can't go higher than what the Adventures set, then I think you've set the bar way too low.

Hell.......! It's not what I meant!!! Ok, let's try again.

- I think as of now the adventures stories are the best ones among all other Sonic games

- I don't think the adventures stories is the highest possible level of quality. At all. But they do stand out among other Sonic games.

- I'd love to see them do better than in the adventures

- I can't see them doing better because the series seems to just degrade in terms of storytelling and characters involved and I just can't see it how they can make a better story than in either of the adventures because it's that bad now. They've proved and showed that they clearly don't want to make their stories any more interesting and deeper.

Now, is that a better explanation of what I meant?

BTW I'm a fan of Avatar series and I loved Lion King and stuff like that when I was a kid so yes, I wish the stories were more like in there.

Edited November 17, 2012 by ArtFenix

[Scar]

@Artfenix

The Adventure games had mediocre plots at best. They rode on an idea, but the execution was so shockingly awful, that it pretty much killed any respectability they had as narratives. Best Sonic game stories? Pff, obviously you've not seen Black Knight's plot. Yeah, its not a great complete package, but the narrative is brilliant and much better than SA1 and SA2's respective plots.

If we're discussing writing and character interactions (Not the story), none match Sonic Colours. Yes Sonic was a goofball and cracked silly jokes, but they were no more silly than the corny bullshit that came out of his poorly lip-synced mouth in SA1 or SA2. Certainly his relationship with Tails was better developed and conversations between them felt a whole lot more natural than the stiff and wooden dialogue featured in the alleged holy-grail of Sonic stories'.

I have a particular bone to pick with this:

- Incredibly linear games

[stated as a reason why today's games (2008 onwards) are more of a dark age to him than what is commonly perceived as the "Dark Age of Sonic" (2001/2004/2005 - 2008)]

That argument would make sense if Unleashed, SA1, SA2, Heroes and 06 were less linear. But they aren't. OK Shadow was, but the non-linearity did nothing but waste my time with endings that were ultimately irrelevant to what is actually supposed to happen.

Its fine if you don't like Generations or Colours, but to cite linearity as a specific problem, and then imply that the games you love so dearly (In this case SA1, SA2) are less linear, is a bit of a joke. SA2 is probably the most linear Sonic game out there.

[ArtFenix]

obviously you've not seen Black Knight's plot.

Yes I did. It's definitely great but it's a spin-off and is Sonic-only (I mean, there is only one storyline VS 6 sub-stories in Sa and 2 substories with 3-4 characters each in Sa2.) Black knight is definitely very good though. The narrative is better but the story as a whole is still much more simple and therefore easy to make than branching storyline with different characters, their own backstories and stuff like that.

If we're discussing writing and character interactions (Not the story), none match Sonic Colours

I see what you mean.. I guess that makes sense but Sonic's interactions with Tails in Sa were pretty good to me, I especially liked the ones on Sky deck.

OK Shadow was, but the non-linearity did nothing but waste my time with endings that were ultimately irrelevant to what is actually supposed to happen.

The games before Unleashed and storybooks were less linear, yes. Sa2 may be more linear than other games but it sure didn't felt as linear as Unleashed. I can't really explain that but I know that a lot of people think the same. And if guys like you get more likes HERE, it doesn't mean that it's set in stone. On SEGA forums it's a bit different, and in russian community it is absolitely opposite. The Unleashed gameplay just throws linearity in your face. Sa2 does not and I fail to see how Sa is as linear as Unleashed or even Sa2. Heroes is full of platforming and slower paced parts which makes it much less linear as well.

[Komodin]

Heroes is full of platforming and slower paced parts which makes it much less linear as well.

Not really. Having platforming and slower-paced parts doesn't make its levels any less of a straight line.

[Diogenes]

The Unleashed gameplay just throws linearity in your face. Sa2 does not

No it pretty much still does, it just doesn't have the boost to encourage you to blast straight through everything.

[ArtFenix]

The Unleashed gameplay just throws linearity in your face. Sa2 does not

That's what I thought about first when comparing the games' gamepley types. Same for Heroes. And going by that logic, Sonic has ALWAYS been linear but it's not true. Edited November 17, 2012 by ArtFenix

[Komodin]

And going by that logic, Sonic has ALWAYS been linear but it's not true.

Well, as far as the 3D Sonic games go, with the exception for the Treasure Hunting levels (which have the opposite, but no less annoying problem)... yes, this is pretty much true.

[Wraith]

Just gonna pop in and say that I consider the Adventure games, Heroes, Shadow, and Unleashed's stories worse than Generations for mostly different reasons.

The Dialouge in the adventure games is fucking terrible. I can't listen to it without cringing. At least Generations had decent dialouge for what little it had. Shadow was just one random ass plothole after another in rapid succession. Heroes had a Generations tier story.

At least Generations didn't fuck up the gameplay on TOP of that though.

[ArtFenix]

Well, as far as the 3D Sonic games go, with the exception for the Treasure Hunting levels (which have the opposite, but no less annoying problem)... yes, this is pretty much true.

Dunno. While it makes sense the games before Unleashed sure did feel less linear. For me at least. And I found trasure hunting in Sa to be alright and I enjoy replaying it from time to time. Can't say the same for Sa2 since it overcomplicated things in thet department and messed up the radar.

[Kuzu]

At least Generations didn't fuck up the gameplay on TOP of that though.

But we're not talking about gameplay....

[Wraith]

But we're not talking about gameplay....

We're always talking about gameplay.

[Broken Down Chemical Plant]

Never really in it. I played the demo of sonic unleashed on my ps3, it was okay.

[NintendoSoul]

Cope? I don't think I was particularly strained during this time. I just played them, had fun, and then waited for the next title, same as I do now.

This is what I did. I found some games crap, some not.

[Tani Coyote]

Works for me too, NintendoSoul.

I admit there was a lot of potboiler crap that came out of Sega's oven over the years, but Sonic's a major part of who I am so I just kept playing and hoping they'd get it right.

And they did. One's prayers are always answered eventually.

[batson]

One's prayers are always answered eventually.

Yeah, but i sure wish the good lord could have answered our prayers to get some decent, new Sonic games before Sega had already cranked out so many crappy ones that Sonic's image is probably going to remain tainted for at least another decade.

[Tani Coyote]

Some tripe here and there makes the next masterpiece feel all the more awesome.

...of course then it gives ammo to the "Oh well it wasn't hard to do good with that game considering how bad the last one was" crowd. But I just ignore those folks.

[MrBadger]

When Shadow the Hedgehog was announced I just got this sinking feeling the series had gone down this dark, "serious" route. I pretty much ignored the series after that. I remember glancing at the 06 boxart and being like "why is Robotnik realistic? what happened to the sanic that I used to knowwww". It's funny, I didn't like 06 before I even found out it was terrible.

My brother bought Secret Rings. I found it okay but didn't like it much. I got Rush for christmas and liked it. Was decent, despite its less complex level design, and Rush Adventure was cool too. Had a neat story and fantastic boss fights.

Then Unleashed got announced. I didn't care for it, the realistic artstyle, day stages that looked like they more or less played themselves and the werehog made me think Sonic was following the Crash of the Titans route; taking a unique platformer and transforming it into a dull beatemup. I figured the game would be received well and be the "return of Sonic" in everyone's eyes but mine.

I became really interested in Sonic again at Project Needlemouse. That was also when I discovered I wasn't the only one who missed what Sonic once was. There was...a lot wrong with that game. I had fun with it for what it was, but still...the physics, the reused content, the homing attack and the current design being used didn't really make it feel like "Sonic 4".

Colours was what got me back into the fan base. The graphics, soundtrack, gameplay and, to some extent story, were all fantastic. Then Generations came along and was even more perfect. And now that I'm a Sonic fan again, there hasn't been a main series announcement for a bit of a while so that kind of sucks. The end.