Sonic's Dark Age: How did you cope?

[Kuzu]

Dull is subjective mang

[Stritix]

We're talking about dull here. Well then fine.

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter how pretty they are. They are extremely dull to play with nothing but 'run to the goal ring in the most linear way possible over and over'. There's nothing else to them.

[Dr. Crusher]

I honestly don't care about whether the story is good or not.

If there is a big one, and it's good, then great, fantastic, all the better. But the main thing that matters to me is if it's fun enough and the characters are themselves. Call me shallow or easily pleased all you want, I just have different priorities is all.

[Double Agent Motobug]

Lul. Oh boy. This topic. To be on-topic, let's just say "I dealt with it thanks to Rush and Rush Adventure, got depressed regarding the series around when 06 was sinking in, then Unleashed showed that there was finally some inspiration behind the series again, even if there was stuff that I didn't find great in it (ie, Werehog, level design in some cases), Smooth sailing since then, barre Sonic 4"

As for Sonic games being shorter these days, duh! Do you know why Sonic Unleashed was "short but not too short"? The Werehog has levels that can go on for over 20 minutes, and he's much much slower, AND there were town stage overworld things. (Which were awesome) in Colours, they took that out and it was purely the faster Sonic stages, with some wisps and bonus acts to keep it a decent length. It was also easier since it was a game targeted to new fans. My guess is that, given SEGA's current financial situation as well as the fact that Colours was done quickly to make up for Generations' lack of a Wii variant, they probably didn't have the time/budget/disc space(?) to make it any longer. As for Generations, they focused their efforts on the gameplay for that one, refining the crap out of Modern Sonic's controls and level design, and then also making tweaks to make the gameplay for Classic Sonic (whom if the rumors are to be believed, happened later in development than we might think.) as well as create all of his stages, and plop him into the story with Classic Tails.

Also it's sad to me when I hear that Generations didn't have replayability... It's almost as though my friends and I are the only ones who play the 30 Second Trial and Time Attack modes. (Seriously, 30 Second Trial is my favorite new addition to Generations, I think. SO ADDICTING D; ) Also, every time I talk about the game it makes me want to play it, because those stages for Modern Sonic generally had really nice designs to them, and while not obtained the same way as Sonic 1/2, the game was -HUGELY- about gaining and maintaining flow, in a way that we haven't experienced from Heroes to 06. Unleashed had it as well, but Generations really made it accessible to non-twitchy speedrunning god type folks XD. I just LIKE playing the game's modern stages over and over just because they're genuinely fun to play for the most part (I personally can't really get the hang of Sky Sanctuary's flow, and generally don't like the industrial part of Planet Wisp)

EDIT: And if you want to use something like "Additional Teams", "Hard mode" or "More Guns" to fuel the replayability argument:

Unleashed had Sun and Moon Medals to collect and several bonus acts per each stage as both the Werehog and normal Sonic, AND additional missions to perform in the overworld. In addition, those Sun/Moon Medals unlocked you concept art, music, cutscenes and even 3 special shorts featuring Sonic and Chip.

Colours had Red Star Rings to hunt for in each stage, and entire Sonic Simulator 2P mode thing acting as a special stage simulate with MANY MANY levels in there, in addition to 6 acts per world, and then Super Sonic to make the stages playable without the Wisps. If I'm not wrong, it also had leaderboards for both Wisp and Super Sonic powerups? (or was that only Sonic 4?)

Generations had Red Star Rings, MANY additional missions in each stage as both Modern and Classic Sonic, bosses with "Hard" modes, Super Sonic for both Modern and classic, many secret art and music things to unlock via the missions WHICH (in the case of the music) can alter the feel of the levels since you can change the music in 'em. Yeah.

Also, I don't get what people are saying about Generations being an "Extremely linear one button gameplay" game, then turning around and praising Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2(!), Heroes, or 06. Sonic Adventure for the most part, never had you deviate from any main paths at all. Sure, had some wider areas to walk around in, but mostly it was just the one path, save for like... Final Egg and Casinopolis? Even then, Casinopolis' sewer parts all looked the same anyway. Plus half of the game's cooler bits were automated where you literally just held up and it did everything for you. Not saying it's a bad game, by any means, but I just don't get the praise this gets in comparison to something like Unleashed/Generations.

Sonic Adventure 2 had a great sense of flow for a lot of the speed stages, especially when you finally got that A rank after the perfect run, but they were the most linear things ever. There was almost NO deviation in paths in any of the speed stages, and even the shooting ones. Again, most of the cool loops and crazy slopes and stuff were automated. Pyramid Cave comes to mind. And also this is the game that actually introduced grinding to the series!

Sonic Heroes... was the same way, mind you there was less automation and more talking throughout (I found some of the situational dialog to be quite nice actually. Ex. Knuckles commenting on the giant mushroom being like the ones on his island in Frog Forest), but those stages were long, AND turbo-linear. There was definitely slim to no alternate paths at all in any of the stages, and you often had to stop to beat a big group of enemies with HP bars. Replayability due to the other teams? Chaotix aside, you could play through Generations 3 times and get 3x the game in that game, too! xD

06, well, Kingdom Valley part 1 had alt paths... o: But that game had the most "I'm not even playing" moments ever. Also where the fuck am I going in Aquatic Base half the time?!

Compare that to something like (Modern) Generations, where there are a few alternate paths going on in at least most of the stages, oftentimes where you don't even see them in relation to the main path (ex. Green Hill's lower parts, upper portions of Chemical Plant, Sky Sanctuary's homing attack alt path there, Speed Highway's alt rockets/chopper shortcuts AND the whole "I fell off the wall running parts OH HEY WTF there's stuff down here!?", Seaside Hill's OMGEVERYWHERE, and Rooftop Run's upper paths. through rings and balloons and stuff) Crazy thing is, you can also stop and go where you please for the most part. hell, you can actually fall off of loops if you're not boosting/have enough speed. There was barely any automation as far as I recall, You were in control most of the way through the game. I can think of a part where it steers for you in a tight segment of GHZ, and it switches to 2D mode for most/all of the loops (Even the 3D camera'd ones), but asides from that...? At least you're DOING stuff in the alt paths. xP

and I mean... I also don't get the whole "GO BACK TO ADVENTURE FORMULA" argument I've been hearing a lot recently either. I mean, slap a boost, drift, and quick step on Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic, and generally you have the same thing o_O;. infact, there are hacks of Sa1/2 levels in Generations that show Modern Sonic flying through those stages as though he was designed for 'em. (granted, they had to be enlarged a bit, I believe, since he goes so fast).

BUT

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, and this is mine I s'pose. o: I just honestly don't see where the comparison is?

Edited November 16, 2012 by Dr.Zoidberg

[Kuzu]

I honestly don't care about whether the story is good or not.

If there is a big one, and it's good, then great, fantastic, all the better. But the main thing that matters to me is if it's fun enough and the characters are themselves. Call me shallow or easily pleased all you want, I just have different priorities is all.

Doesn't better writing( and by extension the story) mean better characters to be written? You can't say that you don't care about the story then say that you care if the characters are written correctly because a well written story will naturally lead to well written characterizatiion.

[Diogenes]

You've got to be kidding. The adventure games are held as games with best stories by many for a reason.

Look man that's abstracted about two levels away from actually being good. They're video game stories, and they're Sonic stories. So for a Sonic game story they may be good, but that's still pretty weak.

And even then bear in mind that a lot of people enjoyed different kind of gameplay. I myself enjoyed playing as Gamma in Sa and Eggman/Tails in Sa2 and I think it's great gameplay!

That's nice, but you should go find a series that specializes in it, so it doesn't have to take up space in a Sonic game.

As you can see, any of the main titles are longer than Colors and Generations.

Only because they're full of padding. The Adventures and '06 have gameplay that doesn't belong in a Sonic game, and Heroes and ShtH force you to replay levels to get to the real ending. I don't see how a game wasting my time is supposed to be a positive.

Let's face the facts again.

- Sadx had lots of gamegear games and Metal Sonic

- Sa2 had Green Hill and quite a few characters for multiplayer

- Heroes had Hard mode and multiplayer modes

- Shadow had Hard mode and some guns

- S06 had multiplayer things as well (I'm not sure if other things were unlockable or DLC)

Worth noting: the original SA had jack shit. And pretty much all of these rewards suck; why would I want to play Hard Mode in a shitty game? What use is multiplayer content if I've got no one around to play it with? GHZ in SA2 was a shitty level, Metal Sonic in SADX was a pointless skin...

Yes it's bad. They play it safe to the point the games are not only incredibly short but they also have pretty much nothing but gameplay (which is Sonic-only btw).

If they could actually get that right, that'd be an improvement over the last decade.

YES, the other characters were there from the very beginning

No they weren't, Sonic 1 was just Sonic vs Eggman.

Sure, Sonic seems to be gaining some recognition again, but it's like some stupid pop music. You know, that soulless piece of crap that millions of people seem to enjoy? That's what it reminds me of.

Sonic's been soulless since Heroes, if anything. Also whining about pop music is pretty lame dude.

[ArtFenix]

Look man that's abstracted about two levels away from actually being good. They're video game stories, and they're Sonic stories. So for a Sonic game story they may be good, but that's still pretty weak.

Well I thought we were talking about Sonic stories on a Sonic forum, no? Of course I'm not talking about Dostoevsky level of storytelling lol. For a Sonic game, Sa/Sa2 had great stories.

That's nice, but you should go find a series that specializes in it, so it doesn't have to take up space in a Sonic game.

And why can't it be in the Sonic series? because it's out of place? Well, it's subjective. You may not like it but there are enough people who do.

Only because they're full of padding. The Adventures and '06 have gameplay that doesn't belong in a Sonic game, and Heroes and ShtH force you to replay levels to get to the real ending. I don't see how a game wasting my time is supposed to be a positive.

It's still miles better than those jokes of levels Sonic colors was filled with. Seriously, those should have been called missions or something! While playing them I thought the game was wasting my time just like you did with the likes of Shadow the hedgehog. No matter how you look at it, those games were longer. And it's all about opinions again. I didn't think any of those games was wasting my time.

If they could actually get that right, that'd be an improvement over the last decade.

No arguments here.

No they weren't, Sonic 1 was just Sonic vs Eggman.

Now this is just nitpicking. It was the very first game! Spindash wasn't there either so what? Let's call it out of place and throw it away! Oh wait.. Unleashed did exactly that!

Sonic's been soulless since Heroes, if anything. Also whining about pop music is pretty lame dude.

Heroes had soulless story, yes. Shadow at least tried too hard but failed. Same with SNG. But they weren't soulless. Shadow was supposed to look too edgy, S06 just had too many ideas in it which were then scrapped/rushed and unfinished. They weren't soulless by any means.

I wasn't whining about pop music. I mentioned it as an example and I do think it's a good one.

[Double Agent Motobug]

Okay, I typically don't like to get into, well, stupid arguments like this, but I'm running on no sleep here, and you dodged my entire very valid TL:DR post, so I'll make it less word'y and more to the point:

Of course I'm not talking about Dostoevsky level of storytelling lol. For a Sonic game, Sa/Sa2 had great stories.

They did have nice stories, shame about the horrible Engrish'y writing. I was just talking to a friend about that not too long ago, the stories themselves were good (maybe Sa2's was too serious, but it was an anniversary thing, so...), but the way they were told was pretty poor.

It's still miles better than those jokes of levels Sonic colors was filled with. Seriously, those should have been called missions or something! While playing them I thought the game was wasting my time just like you did with the likes of Shadow the hedgehog. No matter how you look at it, those games were longer. And it's all about opinions again. I didn't think any of those games was wasting my time.

Conflicting statements are fun. Also, the same could be said about the gameplay of:

Sa1: Knuckles/Amy/Big/Gamma

Sa2: Tails/Eggman/Knuckles/Rouge

Heroes: Every team that makes you play the same thing over and over with very little different

Shadow: Having to play the same missions and stages over and over with ONE change of choice in one mission JUST to get all 10(!!!!) endings to unlock the 11'th "Real" one, telling you that the other ones you got were BS, because this was the REAAAAL ending. It's like it was bullshitting you the whole time, then was like "ok nvm lol here it is, plotholes!"

06: Amigo Characters/Silver/Shadow/Hell, even Sonic's/Town Stages.

Now this is just nitpicking. It was the very first game! Spindash wasn't there either so what? Let's call it out of place and throw it away! Oh wait.. Unleashed did exactly that!

I don't think something like the series' very first game should be thrown away, lol. and to be fair, Heroes did away with the Spindash first, and Shadow and 06 made it completely useless.

Heroes had soulless story, yes. Shadow at least tried too hard but failed. Same with SNG. But they weren't soulless. Shadow was supposed to look too edgy, S06 just had too many ideas in it which were then scrapped/rushed and unfinished. They weren't soulless by any means.

Er... Shadow was a mess of plotholes that didn't belong anywhere near the Sonic timeline, and answered very little about the key question the fans even had about Shadow ("How did he survive the fall in Sa2?" "Shadow Androids??"), Sonic 06 stole most of it's ideas from Sa1/2, and did them worse. Way too serious for a game of this series too. Also...plotholes everywhere, and Sonic was barely important to the whole thing.

But, yay, opinions are like buttholes, everyone has them and they all stink. xD Perhaps mine just stink more than others.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Dr.Zoidberg

[Diogenes]

Well I thought we were talking about Sonic stories on a Sonic forum, no? Of course I'm not talking about Dostoevsky level of storytelling lol. For a Sonic game, Sa/Sa2 had great stories.

If we're not going to strive to be better, why bother? I'm not content with this series simply doing what worked best so far, when its best was barely mediocre; I want it to surpass its previous attempts.

And why can't it be in the Sonic series? because it's out of place?

Yes, because it has nothing to do with Sonic gameplay. If you respect game design, you don't just throw random gameplay styles together. Doesn't matter if it's done well, doesn't matter if some people liked it. It's the equivalent of mixing scenes from Star Wars and Schindler's List.

No matter how you look at it, those games were longer.

Why should I care? Quality over quantity, I'm not going to praise a game simply for taking up more of my time.

Now this is just nitpicking.

No, it's the simple and obvious rebuttal of your point. If being there from the start is what's important, well, they weren't around for the first game. Don't cry just because you were quickly and inarguably proven wrong.

It was the very first game! Spindash wasn't there either so what? Let's call it out of place and throw it away!

If you want to argue something, argue it on its own merits, instead of simply appealing to past games.

Heroes had soulless story, yes. Shadow at least tried too hard but failed. Same with SNG. But they weren't soulless. Shadow was supposed to look too edgy, S06 just had too many ideas in it which were then scrapped/rushed and unfinished. They weren't soulless by any means.

ShtH I can't see as anything but the most cynical cash grab in the series. It is nothing more than tying the most childish "mature" elements in an attempt to bait children into wasting their money on it. And '06 never reached a point where they could put soul into it. It's like a crappy first draft story attached to a game that doesn't even function. You can't honestly argue that these games have more soul than Unleashed, can you?

I wasn't whining about pop music. I mentioned it as an example and I do think it's a good one.

So you were whining about pop music.

[Tornado]

Heroes had soulless story, yes. Shadow at least tried too hard but failed. Same with SNG. But they weren't soulless. Shadow was supposed to look too edgy, S06 just had too many ideas in it which were then scrapped/rushed and unfinished. They weren't soulless by any means.

Are you seriously arguing that there was heart and soul put into a game that they gave so little of a shit about that they released it in what might as well have been a Beta state? Or a game that hilariously and blatantly pandered to what was cool at the time regardless of whether it fit the series, then comprehensively failed at even emulating those things on a basic level (in essence making it the 2005 equivalent of Bubsy II)?

Edited November 16, 2012 by Tornado

[Johnny Boy]

Believe it or not, I actually defended Shadow when it came out because I thought most of the people bashing it were "wimps" and "faggots". Keep in mind I was 11 at the time and I was starting to go through that phase middle school boys go through where they are obsessed with "hardcore" stuff.

Then when 06 came out, whoo boy did I flame everybody bashed this game. And at that time I didn't even play the game yet so all I saw was its "captivating" storyline and gameplay videos on YouTube, and I thought anybody bashing 06 was just a whiny bitch who didn't know how to play.

Needless to say, I was in for a rude awakening when I finally got the game for myself...

[ArtFenix]

I want it to surpass its previous attempts.

And so do I. And that's why sonic drift sucks playing it safe sucks!

Quality over quantity

Right you are! But the quality of the adventures's levels which were shorter than the rest was pretty high for me while the quality of 10-20 seconds long jokes of levels in Colors is just offensive. That's my opinion.

If being there from the start is what's important, well, they weren't around for the first game. Don't cry just because you were quickly and inarguably proven wrong.

Your arguments are flawed, they don't prove me wrong in any way. "They were'nt there from the start" Er...OK...So WHAT? I mean, what kind of argument is that? Most of things in Sonic games weren't there from the start, SO WHAT?

If you want to argue something, argue it on its own merits, instead of simply appealing to past games.

Yeah, the thing is it was you who brought Sonic 1 and the aforementioned "argument" about them being out of place or something..

You can't honestly argue that these games have more soul than Unleashed, can you?

Well, yeah, I guess that's right. I just don't like pixarysh style of unleashed, stupid childish humour and the story is not very original, copying the one from the first adventure. ..and it's Sonic-only.(not just gameplay but the story. Tails and Amy are almost useless anyway) Maybe that's why I tend to like Shth and SNG more.

So you were whining about pop music.

I have already stated that I mentioned it as an example. Or did I hurt your feelings about mainstream crap? If so, I sincerely apologise.

Edited November 16, 2012 by ArtFenix

[Meta77]

06- Bought for 360 first. Beat it.........Then I bought it for ps3. nuff said

unleashed. The music was great

colors. neat

[Double Agent Motobug]

Oh wow, Alright. I can't even comprehend this anymore. Lol. If his arguments are flawed, then yours are Sonic 06. xD Sorry bronik. BUT I CAN'T HELP MYSELF HERE:

Well, yeah, I guess that's right. I just don't like pixarysh style of unleashed, stupid childish humour and the story is not very original, copying the one from the first adventure. ..and it's Sonic-only.(not just gameplay but the story. Tails and Amy are almost useless anyway) Maybe that's why I tend to like Shth and SNG more.

Not that I expect a response, seeing as I am not worth your time, buuuuut:

-I think the entirety of Shadow and 06 are way more stupid and childish than anything in Unleashed. What was the childish joke in there, Chip dying and then appearing as a soul in the one cutscene? xP

-Copying things from Adventure 1 and 2 is pretty much the way I can summarize the entirety Sonic 06, and Shadow the Hedgehog copied shit from Sa2, INCLUDING MODELS that weren't even in Heroes' STYLE (Which was the style of the rest of the game) AND screenshots of the game for flashbacks, PLUS it jacked the models for most of the player characters from HEROES of all things, AND was SHADOW ONLY. Multiplayer mode? Shadow VS purple Shadow Vs yellow Shadow VS green Shadow... XD

In addition, while we've strayed from the initial topic at hand, I suppose at least we're still carrying a topic and it's not ALL OVER the place back and forth between the original point to the topic and this new dumb one... xD But uh... yeah. I feel bad for helping derail it, so perhaps we should all just shut up and get back on topic. o: ...

Edited November 16, 2012 by Dr.Zoidberg

[Diogenes]

And so do I. And that's why sonic drift sucks playing it safe sucks!

And I don't disagree. But the Adventure games' stories aren't that great, even if they are the best the series has made, and so they are not the standard we should be aiming for.

Your arguments are flawed, they don't prove me wrong in any way. "They were'nt there from the start" Er...OK...So WHAT? I mean, what kind of argument is that? Most of things in Sonic games weren't there from the start, SO WHAT?

That was your argument, bro:

YES, the other characters were there from the very beginning

I'm not even against other characters being playable, as long as it's done right. But I hate shitty arguments like this.

Well, yeah, I guess that's right. I just don't like pixarysh style of unleashed, stupid childish humour and the story is not very original, copying the one from the first adventure. ..and it's Sonic-only.(not just gameplay but the story. Tails and Amy are almost useless anyway) Maybe that's why I tend to like Shth and SNG more.

Because you're scared of liking things you see as childish and you consider a large cast more important than the quality of the story. Yeah, these are shitty opinions, dude.

I have already stated that I mentioned it as an example. Or did I hurt your feelings about mainstream crap? If so, I sincerely apologise.

Yeah dude, you basically just look like you're crying about new things being different now. I don't have any particular investment in pop music, but whining about it being soulless and how whatever you listened to when you were younger was soooo deeeep is basically the most obvious sign that a person isn't interested in an actual discussion, just fellating their already established preferences.

[Kuzu]

I want to respond so badly, but alas I am on a phone.

[ArtFenix]

Not that I expect a response, seeing as I am not worth your time, buuuuut:

Sorry for not quoting you. It's not that.

I'm just tired. I can't make a wall of text like above to every person who argues with me.

And I don't disagree. But the Adventure games' stories aren't that great, even if they are the best the series has made, and so they are not the standard we should be aiming for.

They are the best Sonic stories in my opinion and if we want better stories, the adventure level of stories could be amazing for a start. because if you want even better stories, you set your expectations too high considering how awful the stories in the latest games are. Edited November 16, 2012 by ArtFenix

[Kuzu]

Sorry for not quoting you. It's not that.

I'm just tired. I can't make a wall of text like above to every person who argues with me.

They are the best Sonic stories in my opinion and if we want better stories, the adventure level of stories could be amazing for a start. because if you want even better stories, you set your expectations too high considering how awful the stories in the latest games are.

As good as the writing in the Adventure games is, they have there fair share of problems and I don't think they're much better than what we currently have. I think we need to raise our standards a bit higher for at least decent writing

[batson]

As good as the writing in the Adventure games is, they have there fair share of problems

While the stories in the Adventure games where hardly anything amazing (not that any Sonic story has been amazing) i think their only truly major flaws are on the level of dialogue, voice acting and animation. In other words, the basic storylines are fine, its just that a lot of their execution was crap. Well okay, maybe the story SA2 also sufferd from one to many anime-cliché plot devices. But at least in the case of SA1, i still consider it the best story in the series. It's a shame that its bogged down by dumb dialogue, bad voice acting and really odd facial animation, but even so.

[Kuzu]

While the stories in the Adventure games where hardly anything amazing (not that any Sonic story has been amazing) i think their only truly major flaws are on the level of dialogue, voice acting and animation. In other words, the basic storylines are fine, its just that a lot of their execution was crap. Well okay, maybe the story SA2 also sufferd from one to many anime-cliché plot devices. But at least in the case of SA1, i still consider it the best story in the series. It's a shame that its bogged down by dumb dialogue, bad voice acting and really odd facial animation, but even so.

No dude: to start, Amy, Gamma, and Big's stories have very l

While the stories in the Adventure games where hardly anything amazing (not that any Sonic story has been amazing) i think their only truly major flaws are on the level of dialogue, voice acting and animation. In other words, the basic storylines are fine, its just that a lot of their execution was crap. Well okay, maybe the story SA2 also sufferd from one to many anime-cliché plot devices. But at least in the case of SA1, i still consider it the best story in the series. It's a shame that its bogged down by dumb dialogue, bad voice acting and really odd facial animation, but even so.

No dude: to start, Amy, Gamma, and Big's stories have very little to do with the overall plot, and while they're character building don't add much to the plot.

Sa2 could just be cut down to Sonic, Shadow, Knuckles, Eggman and not much would be lost.

Both stories suffer from padding to some degree.

[batson]

No dude: to start, Amy, Gamma, and Big's stories have very little to do with the overall plot, and while they're character building don't add much to the plot.

I think its fine that they dont add that much to the greater plot because those little stories are interesting in their own right. Well, maybe not so much Big's, but the rest of them at least. Especially Gammas story, which i think is actually even better than the games main plot.

I think of Sonic Adventure as a story just as much about individual characters and their lives and motivations as about the impending rampage of Chaos, with the latter story being what eventually ties all these characters together.

[Kuzu]

I think its fine that they dont add that much to the greater plot because those little stories are interesting in their own right. Well, maybe not so much Big's, but the rest of them at least. Especially Gammas story, which i think is actually even better than the games main plot.

I think of Sonic Adventure as a story just as much about individual characters and their lives and motivations as about the impending rampage of Chaos, with the latter story being what eventually ties all these characters together.

See I have no problem with side stories, but not when they encompass 3/6 of the entire game and have very little to do with the overall plot.

If you're going to have a side story alongside the main plot, then treat it as such.

[ArtFenix]

As good as the writing in the Adventure games is, they have there fair share of problems and I don't think they're much better than what we currently have.

Now this is just nonsensial bullshit. The story in generations is a sack of crap and if you think it's better than in any of the adventure games.. Well.. I'm sorry.

[T-Min]

Dang, it's really been too long since I visited the Sonic Discussion boards. I actually missed a massive debate.

This makes me sad.

Anyway, how did I cope? Hm...well, I was rather a young child at the time and thus had very low standards for things such as level design, story writing and gameplay quality, so I found myself enjoying the likes of Shadow and 06 quite a bit. Curiously, I couldn't bring myself to enjoy Secret Rings even back then, and Unleashed and Black Knight came around the time that I was beginning to grow up and realize that hey, these games kind of suck. Though, I still wouldn't say that Unleashed HD sucks, per se; in fact, I rather like it for the influence it had on the direction of the franchise...well, half of it anyway (though I do find the daytime stages hard to go back to after playing Generations, but I digress).

Sonic 4: Episode 1? ...Eh. I've defended it here in the past and I guess I still would kinda defend some things (such as the level design, sans automation), though that may only be my stubbornness due to the fact that I actually loved it when it first came out. But that seems to be the way things go with most former Sonic 4 defenders. The game comes out and they eat it like candy because they haven't played a truly good Sonic game in almost ten years (or seven, if you liked Heroes), and then better games come out such as Colors, Generations and even Episode 2 and then we begin to realize that, objectively, the game is kinda meh. Can't say I didn't enjoy it for what it was, though.

Now this is just nonsensial bullshit. The story in generations is a sack of crap and if you think it's better than in any of the adventure games.. Well.. I'm sorry.

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, a lot of people would say the same thing about Shadow and 06 when compared to Generations' and Colors' stories. :V

[Kuzu]

Now this is just nonsensial bullshit.

You're not helping your argument when you start off your responses like this broham.

Maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions; did I ever say that Generations was better than anything? I said both games have their narrative problems, and that we should raise the bar.

All you did it pull a strawman that had NOTHING to do with what I was talking about.