Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[E-122-Psi]

16 hours ago, Speedi said:

I don't understand how Heroes being a lighthearted story about teamwork makes it in anyway a mockery of the classic games' tone/storytelling? The game is pretty earnest in how it's story is told and Maekawa has even gone on record saying his favorite Team to write dialogue for was the Chaotix. You know, the most comedically driven characters in the game lol.  He's gone on record saying he doesn't care for the classic "era", but there could be a lot of reasons for that seeing as he wasn't very specific about why. 

It's less the story itself and more the ridiculously cheesy and saccharine execution of it, with the characters not shutting up with the goody goody lines, basically if it's not 'mature' then it has to give us diabetes. I can see how Chaotix may be an exception though because it's generally the one that has legitimately fun banter based on the characters' personalities.

16 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Heroes was the first multiplatform game in franchise. The game was intentionally scaled down as to ease in newcomers to the series who had never played Sonic before.

It's weird they only did that aesthetically however while the gameplay was often more convoluted and gimmicky compared to the previous games due to the character switching and combat focus (besides occasional call backs like the special stages returning). As someone whose first taste of the 3D Sonic era was Heroes, I could definitely tell a HUGE difference in it, especially when I got to try Sonic Adventure DX afterwards and just felt it did a way better job feeling like one of the old Sonic games (at least when playing as Sonic).

[Kuzu]

I have a very hard time believing Heroes is in anyway unorthodox when the game isn't exactly subtle with telling how to play it.

You have literal giant neon signs that point out which formations to use, in addition to the characters telling you in audio.

[Wraith]

Almost every Sonic game is second nature to me at this point so I'm probably not the best person to evaluate these things, but I'd say Heroes has a better chance of overwhelming the player with options compared to SA1's straightforward "jump button, action button" combo. You have access to 3 times as many actions at any given time.

Either way we're talking about pretty simple games though so I wouldn't worry too much about that. In both cases I've seen new players struggle more with unreliable collision/twitchy movement than anything else.

[Soniman]

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I have a very hard time believing Heroes is in anyway unorthodox when the game isn't exactly subtle with telling how to play it.

You have literal giant neon signs that point out which formations to use, in addition to the characters telling you in audio.

It has a tutorial option in the menu, a dedicated beginners mode in Team Rose that FORCES you to play the tutorial, hint markers that tell you what to do, characters that will tell you what you need to do automatically without having hint markers, the aforementioned signs that tell you what formation to use and gates that FORCE you to change into the formation you should be in for whatever section.

Heroes has issues but being unclear in how one is supposed to play it is absolutely not one of them lmao.

[E-122-Psi]

It's not that Heroes is hard to figure out, but more the level of demand it's mechanics ask is far more divergent and unfocused. Sonic was always about platforming, zipping through big 'virtual playgrounds' with still a decent focus on platforming hopping and momentum. Heroes on the other hand dumbs that all down in favour of stop and go gimmicks, needing to switch out into different gameplay modes non-stop or play through a lengthy combat area. Most gameplay elements it inherits from previous games are almost exclusively what Sonic Adventure 2 introduced to make itself different like grinding.

It's not to say this makes it a BAD game (though execution does vary) but more it's a very weird choice as an introduction to Sonic. I feel like porting over the Adventure games first to get people into the swing of a more divergent new take would have been a better strategy here, especially as an old Megadrive owner who only playing those games AFTER Heroes. Hell even Next Gen in concept would be closer to a loyal introduction to the franchise in spite of poorer quality. That PS2 gamers got only Heroes and Shadow and then Mega Collection Plus leaves a HUGE evolutionary process missing that makes old and new seem barely the same.

It's feels a bit like if they chose to bring Crash Bandicoot back into the market by remaking Crash of the Titans (speaking even as someone who thought that game was decent).

[Cosmos Rogue]

Was Sonic Heroes even intended for new audiences? The game is Sonic's first multiplatform release, but the game itself is bogged down with convoluted game mechanics and superficial appeals to fans of the classic series. By giving the player three characters to play as at the same time Heroes triples the number of moves the player has to learn how to use properly. Heroes then pushes this to the breaking point by making it possible to level up the characters, which means there are four different versions of each move you have to learn. An unleveled Sonic might be completely incapable of hurting an enemy that is carrying a shield, forcing him to use the Blue Tornado to blow that shield away before switching to Knuckles to dispatch the enemy with a quick punch attack. A level three Sonic however can knock that shield away with one Homing Attack and then destroy the enemy in a single hit with a second. How much damage your characters can do to the enemy constantly changes, as does what strategies you have available to you. You're doing much of the same things you did in the Adventure games to fight enemies, but with additional game mechanics (thoughtlessly) layered on. It's not Sonic 101 the Game.

Further indicating that existing Sonic fans were the primary intended audience for Heroes is the drastic tone shift the game represents following the Adventure titles. Even as early as Sonic Adventure 2 you had fans of the classic titles who didn't like the multi-genre gameplay and character driven melodrama of the Adventure titles. Compared to the Adventure games Sonic Heroes has shorter cutscenes, brighter visuals, and a simpler narrative - theoretically things many Sonic fans were asking for at the time.

This doesn't even get into the return of classic stages, Shadow, or the Chaotix, things that only existing Sonic fans would have cared about.

[Wraith]

Sonic Heroes, like most Sonic games, was aimed at anyone who might be even remotely in playing it. It had a simpler overall premise than the Adventure titles but I think that was just because it was easier to get everyone involved that way. Motivations and alliances were carried over from prior games with little explanation given. The dialogue references everything from Sonic 3 to SA2. Everything is kept simple enough for a newbie to jump on with relative ease, but that was just as true in SA2's case and that was a direct sequel to the previous game.

It's largely newcomer friendly with some overarching plot threads, just like any other Sonic game.

[DabigRG]

It's worth noting that Shadow's presence was a later decision, as they initially just included a bunch of other recurring characters across six teams before whittling that down.

[Josh]

Yeah, Heroes was kind of the Forces of its day: It incorporated a lot of surface-level elements that fans had been clamoring for (long-forgotten characters returning, visual/music similarities to earlier games, etc), but focused most of the game design on appealing to people who'd never played a Sonic game before. In both cases, it left a lot of existing fans feeling unsatisfied and at least a bit hoodwinked.

[Azure Blue Tori]

Can't decide which one of "Because we're Sonic Heroes!" or "Wrong loser! The things that can't be defeated are heart, soul, and the bonds of friendship." is the more humiliating way to respond to a defeated villain.

[Blue Blood]

7 hours ago, Azure Blue Tori said:

Can't decide which one of "Because we're Sonic Heroes!" or "Wrong loser! The things that can't be defeated are heart, soul, and the bonds of friendship." is the more humiliating way to respond to a defeated villain.

I mean... Both are pretty bad, but at least the Forces one actually means something. It's a cheesy dressing down of the villain's weaknesses versus the heroes' strengths.

What the hell is a Sonic Hero?

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

I mean... Both are pretty bad, but at least the Forces one actually means something. It's a cheesy dressing down of the villain's weaknesses versus the heroes' strengths.

What the hell is a Sonic Hero?

A hero that's Sonic obviously, duh. 

[Blue Blood]

20 hours ago, Kuzu said:

A hero that's Sonic obviously, duh. 

Does that mean that Knuckles and Tails are also Sonics? Because Sonic only ever refers to multiple Sonic heroes, not just one.

Edit: I apologise for dragging this thread off topic.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

Does that mean that Knuckles and Tails are also Sonics? Because Sonic only ever refers to multiple Sonic heroes, not just one.

Well you see, Tails is yellow Sonic, Knuckles is Red Sonic. So we can conclude that they are in fact Sonic Heroes. 

[DabigRG]

59 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well you see, Tails is yellow Sonic, Knuckles is Red Sonic. So we can conclude that they are in fact Sonic Heroes. 

Duh, I thought that was Ray and Mighty?

[E-122-Psi]

Guys guys guys, they obviously mean these:

[Guest]

On 3/31/2021 at 6:03 PM, DabigRG said:

It's worth noting that Shadow's presence was a later decision, as they initially just included a bunch of other recurring characters across six teams before whittling that down.

Wait- there were originally 6 teams!?? I wonder who the other 2 were!

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Angyu said:

Wait- there were originally 6 teams!?? I wonder who the other 2 were!

Team Rose and Dark were basically the same team since Shadow was still dead and Omega hadn't been conceived yet, with the other teams being Big with Chaos & Gamma, Metal with Mighty, & Ray, and the Hooligans.

Obviously, the Classics besides the Chaotix were dropped alongside Chaos and Metal, while Gamma effectively traded places with Shadow.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Team Rose and Dark were basically the same team since Shadow was still dead and Omega hadn't been conceived yet, with the other teams being Big with Chaos & Gamma, Metal with Mighty, & Ray, and the Hooligans.

Obviously, the Classics besides the Chaotix were dropped alongside Chaos and Metal, while Gamma effectively traded places with Shadow.

A part of me wishes we got that version but then again, we already had to play the same game 4 times as is.

[Cadence]

Sonic is not secretly an emerald guardian
Sonic is not secretly a guardian of sol or have sol powers
Sonic is not the ultimate life form

All things i have heard, all things I think are bad. Trying to take interesting unique characteristics from other characters and graft them onto the main one not only makes those characters worse and gives them less reason to stick around. It makes the protagonist character bloated along with removing other peoples abilities to potentially be protagonists in their own right.

I find the desire to make sonic everything and connected to everything and related to everyone and uninteresting form of story telling and I'm really glad not only has sega not done any of this is actively moving farther and farther away from this

[Diogenes]

Personally I think the ULF one works as long as it's not taken too literally (as in, no, Sonic is not Gerald's extra-super-secret Project Shadow creation), since SA2 does bring up the subject. It's not about taking the title from Shadow so much as it is highlighting their similarities and implying there's something significant that they share, which makes sense for the whole doppelganger element. Plus I feel like it's less important that Shadow be the ULF than it is that he was created to be the ULF anyway.

I do agree that Sonic isn't(/should not be) an emerald "guardian", but then I also don't feel like "guardian" is the kind of official position that someone could "secretly" be in the first place. I see it as more of a practical description of what the characters do ("there are some powerful magic rocks here, somebody ought to guard them from assholes") than referring to some kind of grand connection between the guardian and whatever rocks they protect.

[Wraith]

Sonic is not literally the ultimate life form but my reading of that piece of dialogue was that he was doing what Shadow realized he was supposed to be doing all along. "Giving the citizens of earth a chance to be happy." A humanitarian conclusion that Shadow needed to be guided to by the nose is just something that comes to Sonic naturally. 

This isn't to say Sonic is some sort of perfect angel, just that he has a natural drive to help others that makes him more mature than Shadow. This quality he has is more important than any inherent speed or strength advantages, and it's a quality Shadow circa SA2 could stand to embody over corrosive revenge fantasies.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

 

I do agree that Sonic isn't(/should not be) an emerald "guardian", but then I also don't feel like "guardian" is the kind of official position that someone could "secretly" be in the first place. I see it as more of a practical description of what the characters do ("there are some powerful magic rocks here, somebody ought to guard them from assholes") than referring to some kind of grand connection between the guardian and whatever rocks they protect.

That and Sonic's irresponsible as shit.

[Cadence]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Personally I think the ULF one works as long as it's not taken too literally (as in, no, Sonic is not Gerald's extra-super-secret Project Shadow creation), since SA2 does bring up the subject. It's not about taking the title from Shadow so much as it is highlighting their similarities and implying there's something significant that they share, which makes sense for the whole doppelganger element. Plus I feel like it's less important that Shadow be the ULF than it is that he was created to be the ULF anyway.

I do agree that Sonic isn't(/should not be) an emerald "guardian", but then I also don't feel like "guardian" is the kind of official position that someone could "secretly" be in the first place. I see it as more of a practical description of what the characters do ("there are some powerful magic rocks here, somebody ought to guard them from assholes") than referring to some kind of grand connection between the guardian and whatever rocks they protect.

My issue is about it being taken to literally. I think most people read it as " Oh damn sonic i screwed up really bad. Here's a compliment " or in some cases shadow not saying it to sonic himself but the franchise at the time due to sega going through a lot of things sonic's future wasn't set in in stone and that line was a very talking to the camera moment for the brand. 

However there are some people who believe in this theory that secretly sonic is the omega super ultra hero of all time who is everything incarnate including the things i listed. And I feel personally that takes away as sonic as a person and misses the point of the compliment entirely. Sonic isn't the ultimate life form, he wasn't something created in a lab. But he stuck it out and impressed shadow and he got a compliment out of it. I don't think that line stays in a modern retelling of sa2 i imagine shadow living is less of a mystery so a whole bunch of things would be changed. My point was more so the literal interpretations though

One more thing though I do thing shadow's character at a point evolved in which it is kind of important he be the ULF. Shadow went from a character wanting revenge to an anti hero who's perspective of what heroism is , wildly different than most of the cast.  I think in narratives like this ( and why i think the amnesia thing actually kind of worked ) because it adds to the framework of what SHADOW thinks a hero is. What he thinks the ultimate life form is, and its what he's doing. I have always found shadow at his most interesting when written not antagonistically but with a wildly different perspective from the cast. And him being the ULF works with that and how he thinks about the world. 

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

This isn't to say Sonic is some sort of perfect angel, just that he has a natural drive to help others that makes him more mature than Shadow. This quality he has is more important than any inherent speed or strength advantages, and it's a quality Shadow circa SA2 could stand to embody over corrosive revenge fantasies.

I don't think that works though. SA2's shadow's revenge fantasies are planted, or rather his motivations to do so. To talk about rouge for a second, part of the reason rouge as a character works as a partner character for shadow is because she gets him out of his own head. And for a while shadow thinking he was some type of monster or people thinking he was , was a story being told in multiple mediums ( its one I think that should come back. Insecurities and emotional weakness are fun and not things that should be avoided. Sonic has this problem too these days ) . Part of the reason that story works is that in sa2 part of it wasn't his fault. He was some hedgehog born in a tube with no life or world experience and he knew was his friend died and the fake memories his father implanted in him. Once he saw the world and figured out he had been sold a literal imaginary lemon he changed his tune. Shadow isn't a perfect angel or what have you. ( Though Maekawa has said on multiple occasions he wrote him as a "pure " character. Whatever you wish to interpret that as ). 
 

But I think the point of sa2's narrative wasn't about emotional maturity it was about being ones self, and shadow finally got to be himself and not a tool at the end of that story. And shadow is , a hero. That natural drive to help other's is in shadow's campaign too, but its obfuscated by him being blinded by hate.  And IMO the compliment he gives sonic comes out of him not liking that he was manipulated, even if that makes literally no sense whatsoever. But, that's who shadow is , he's a pragmatist , if something bad happens under his watch, its his fault. No matter if it literally wasn't his fault, he could have stopped or changed it. No matter if he literally couldn't. Him constantly blaming himself for everything even is something that is persistent with his character, even now with his current bag of issues. I don't think it ever worked to frame it as shadow being toxic , it works less considering he looses his memory. Themes of individualism run heavy though sonic, and particular with shadow as a character and this was just another time it did.

But i'm getting really far away from my original point , is that I really dislike literal interpretations of trying to make sonic everything. I think that's bad both in gameplay and in stories. His friends compliment him, and vice versa. 

I guess i'm saying put the friends back in the games dangit

[Wraith]

21 minutes ago, Cadence said:

 

I don't think that works though. SA2's shadow's revenge fantasies are planted, or rather his motivations to do so. To talk about rouge for a second, part of the reason rouge as a character works as a partner character for shadow is because she gets him out of his own head. And for a while shadow thinking he was some type of monster or people thinking he was , was a story being told in multiple mediums ( its one I think that should come back. Insecurities and emotional weakness are fun and not things that should be avoided. Sonic has this problem too these days ) . Part of the reason that story works is that in sa2 part of it wasn't his fault. He was some hedgehog born in a tube with no life or world experience and he knew was his friend died and the fake memories his father implanted in him. Once he saw the world and figured out he had been sold a literal imaginary lemon he changed his tune. Shadow isn't a perfect angel or what have you. ( Though Maekawa has said on multiple occasions he wrote him as a "pure " character. Whatever you wish to interpret that as ). 
 

But I think the point of sa2's narrative wasn't about emotional maturity it was about being ones self, and shadow finally got to be himself and not a tool at the end of that story. And shadow is , a hero. That natural drive to help other's is in shadow's campaign too, but its obfuscated by him being blinded by hate.  And IMO the compliment he gives sonic comes out of him not liking that he was manipulated, even if that makes literally no sense whatsoever. But, that's who shadow is , he's a pragmatist , if something bad happens under his watch, its his fault. No matter if it literally wasn't his fault, he could have stopped or changed it. No matter if he literally couldn't. Him constantly blaming himself for everything even is something that is persistent with his character, even now with his current bag of issues. I don't think it ever worked to frame it as shadow being toxic , it works less considering he looses his memory. Themes of individualism run heavy though sonic, and particular with shadow as a character and this was just another time it did.

But i'm getting really far away from my original point , is that I really dislike literal interpretations of trying to make sonic everything. I think that's bad both in gameplay and in stories. His friends compliment him, and vice versa. 

I guess i'm saying put the friends back in the games dangit

Shadow's memories being tampered with doesn't actually absolve him of fault, in the same way that Silver being manipulated by Mephilies didn't absolve him of his part in that whole thing. A refusal to second guess yourself is a dangerous trait to have in most cases, but when we're talking about knowingly committing omnicide it's multiplied. Even if it was truly Maria's desire that Shadow commit a heinous act of vengence in her name, Shadow wouldn't have been justified in acting on it. At the very least, he could have the basic clarity to aim his rage purely at the people responsible and not the entire planet.

Shadow is right to think he bears some responsibility for what happened and he's right to suspect that some people are always going to think he's dangerous for it. How couldn't they? If Shadow is allowed to lash out because his family was killed, who could blame the rest of the world for feeling apprehensive about the guy who tried to return the favor 7 billion times over?

At the same time, he was also right to decide to just do the best he can with the second life he's been given. It might be the first good decision he's ever made.