Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[E-122-Psi]

It kinda bugs me how almost every attempt to make Amy more competent usually just revolves around making her more generic. STC/Chronicles/Forces/even Archie to some degree, rather than playing on her quirks and defining qualities, just made her more blandly capable, and thus more interchangeable cannon fodder.

Heroes is ironically the nearest to an exception since it at least played on her driving her own story with her team and still being the high spirit of her group due to her bubbly personality.

Boom also tried to go a little for making her the 'heart' of the group, even if her altered personality (which was largely a stuffy smart girl archetype) kinda blurred it.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

It kinda bugs me how almost every attempt to make Amy more competent usually just revolves around making her more generic. STC/Chronicles/Forces/even Archie to some degree, rather than playing on her quirks and defining qualities, just made her more blandly capable, and thus more interchangeable cannon fodder.

Heroes is ironically the nearest to an exception since it at least played on her driving her own story with her team and still being the high spirit of her group due to her bubbly personality.

Boom also tried to go a little for making her the 'heart' of the group, even if her altered personality (which was largely a stuffy smart girl archetype) kinda blurred it.

I blame the fact that the people in charge can only ever seem to treat her as either a borderline “Mary Sue” or “Lovestruck girl”, and not much effort is made to see beyond that.

Ruby Rose from RWBY honestly has a lot of what I think Amy could be like. A fairly capable leader when she puts her mind to it, but with a big heart and surprisingly good sense for emotional turmoil (as long as she’s not distracted) and a decent fighter, but at the same time a rather doofy person at times who gets excited over small things in a way the other characters don’t, gets distracted by cute animals and whose social interactions could more or less be describe her as a socially awkward extrovert.

 

[RedFox99]

@E-122-Psi I feel like IDW could be a step in the right direction. 

[Skull Leader]

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

It kinda bugs me how almost every attempt to make Amy more competent usually just revolves around making her more generic. STC/Chronicles/Forces/even Archie to some degree, rather than playing on her quirks and defining qualities, just made her more blandly capable, and thus more interchangeable cannon fodder.

Heroes is ironically the nearest to an exception since it at least played on her driving her own story with her team and still being the high spirit of her group due to her bubbly personality.

Boom also tried to go a little for making her the 'heart' of the group, even if her altered personality (which was largely a stuffy smart girl archetype) kinda blurred it.

This is something that also applies to other characters, since often the idea of making them competent is to just make them suddenly strong in fights rather than play their unique attributes that they can bring to make a difference in the stories.

Heroes was decent in this because Amy is teamed with characters whose circumstances makes her feel empathy for them, as she knows from experience what it is like to be in their shoes. Her charisma and determination is what makes her a leader whom Big and Cream can rely to guide them in their rescue mission. I liked how she motivates the team and keeps their morale, but also displays authority.

While I think Amy is as competent asTails (back when he did stuff), if not maybe a bit more when it comes to handling themselves, it's her friendly disposition to take in other characters - especially the "lesser" ones - and believing in them what Amy can add, along with her ability to spot the good in certain characters that are on the wrong path and have faith in that they can change even before they themselves realize this.

In Boom they show other ways in which she is uniquely competent too, like the Fuzzy puppies episode where she defeats Eggman thanks to him underestimating that one "useless" figure that Amy always brings, because she gas faith in what others don't or are not brave to.

One thing I wish had been shown though in SA2 was how did Amy managed to not only follow GUN all the way to the secret facilities where they were planning to lock Sonic away, but also how she infiltrated the place and went as far as acquiring the key card to his cell long before Tails arrived. I can picture her trying all kind of unconventional tricks, like that used in X where she and Tails used to stand still to pass as a plushie and not draw attention. This is the kind of resourcefulness I imagine for a "normie" character like Amy, who does what she can with what she has in order to overcome her limitations and get things done. Even her hammer abilities could be displayed as more than for just smashing her foes, like the way she hits the ground to catapult her light body high into the air. Likewise her playful touch would be nice to be added, like in one of the post-reboot issues where she pushes all kind of buttons and switches to cause havock within one of Eggman's bases, smashing the console and playing coy about how she should be leaving that kind of stuff to Tails instead. Essentially, it has to feel like something that has her touch.

[E-122-Psi]

I think a constant problem is that so many personality traits are easy to simplify as just purely good or purely bad depending on the opinion of the writer. Smart characters like Tails and Sally become boring brain-hive Sues or barely intelligent at all, on-the-fly and impulsive characters like Sonic either become reckless or unstoppable juggernauts, childish characters like Amy just become loudmouthed brats or...not childish.

Often the thing enabling a character with defining quirks to not end up one note is the writers' ability to make said quirks three dimensional, and show how they come in handy or as a detriment in ways often only their character can, ie. character agency. It's not enough to just have some half assed moment a dumb character finally does something competent, or a smart all knowing character is wrong for once, it has to tie into some sort of personality to flesh them out.

[Skull Leader]

Boom IMO is the one show that best played the genius kid part of Tails' character. Some examples I can think of are UT where he shows some actually smart writting of his character who uses the robot to send a message asking for help once it is translated for what he actually meant to say. There's also the episode in which Eggman plays all of Sonic's friends and beats them, with Tails' case being him falling for the docs compliments, which felt believable as Tails is a kid eager to be recognized for his inventions and wants someone with whom he can excitedly talk about them.

[Multikaris]

I do think some of the other characters in SMA should have still gotten lines. Reinforce that Generations is still a thing.

[ravingCANVAS]

IMO Heroes didn't have that bad of control when it came to good versions of the game (as well as Shadow, for that matter). To hell with the pinball physics, though.

[Skull Leader]

I think Sonic would work better as a cartoon series than as a videogame franchise.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Often the thing enabling a character with defining quirks to not end up one note is the writers' ability to make said quirks three dimensional, and show how they come in handy or as a detriment in ways often only their character can, ie. character agency.

What three dimensions?

And how exactly would one go about making them for Amy? Or any character for that matter?

[Mountaindewandsprite]

2 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

I think Sonic would work better as a cartoon series than as a videogame franchise.

I agree.

[Skull Leader]

7 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

What three dimensions?

And how exactly would one go about making them for Amy? Or any character for that matter?

It's all about making them feel like real people. A character like Amy could pull off one of the main requirements of having a fully developed fictional life that allows people to identify and care for what happens.

Also it would help to give the character a clear goal that drives it so that she doesn't just lay around, in which case Amy already has: earning Sonic's respect and eventually win his heart. Only thing stopping Amy right now is Sonic Team having faith in no one other than Tails and Knuckles, which is a problem that also affects other characters that were not lucky to be introduced in the Genesis trilogy.

Also like E-122 said, the characters need to be uniquely good and bad at things, otherwise they feel generic and interchangeable, like how the idea of making them more capable is to simply make them strong rather than playing off their unique attributes and contributions. Amy IMO has things unique to her like the ability to sense the good of others, including antagonists that can be redeemed or her faith in "lesser" characters, helping them realize their potential by believing in them, as well as bad things such as being short tempered, impulsive and a bit short-sighted when dealing with things such as her crush.

Finally, break the stereotype: SA1 did this for Amy, adding plenty of character layers to what originally started as a mere damsel in distress/girl with a crush, showing that there was more to Amy than meets the eye. It wasn't until the writters started to focus solely on Amy's crush and exaggerated it to borderline obsession that she started to regress into a stereotype, which again is a problem pretty much all the other characters suffer too, like Tails who in the last main titles also fell from grace.

[RedFox99]

@Skull Leader How could apply that logic make Sally more three-dimensional?

Unpopular opinion: while I'm not their biggest fan, I feel Pontaff gets way too much hate. I'm not taking about the criticism people have towards their writing, it's more how fans express.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

It's all about making them feel like real people. A character like Amy could pull off one of the main requirements of having a fully developed fictional life that allows people to identify and care for what happens.

I know, but what three dimensions tho?

Not just in general, but also for Amy specifically. 

[DabigRG]

17 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

It kinda bugs me how almost every attempt to make Amy more competent usually just revolves around making her more generic. STC/Chronicles/Forces/even Archie to some degree, rather than playing on her quirks and defining qualities, just made her more blandly capable, and thus more interchangeable cannon fodder.

 

I sorta noticed something to that effect as well.

Unfortunately, I feel like some series generally struggle and/or try just a tad too hard to make their female and/or less regarded characters feel useful.

12 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

I think Sonic would work better as a cartoon series than as a videogame franchise.

In some regard, I can agree with that.

Characters like Knuckles, Shadow, and (ironically) Cream seem/feel like they work much better as dynamic/developing characters when there's extra appearances and downtime to chain together their motives and stances in any particular story to feel like a more organic progression. And the plots wouldn't necessarily be hyper bound to consistently focus on whatever specific main elements each game prioritizes for the sake of telling a [ideally] cohesive and dramatic story.

4 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

It's all about making them feel like real people. A character like Amy could pull off one of the main requirements of having a fully developed fictional life that allows people to identify and care for what happens.

 

And what lone game/episode showcases this the best, if you have a hard reference?

1 hour ago, RedFox99 said:

@Skull Leader How could apply that logic make Sally more three-dimensional?

Wasn't Sally originally more, for lack of a better word here, multi-faceted in personality before later stories ironically made her feel "simpler" by giving her more importance and lore?

1 hour ago, RedFox99 said:

Unpopular opinion: while I'm not their biggest fan, I feel Pontaff gets way too much hate. I'm not taking about the criticism people have towards their writing, it's more how fans express.

Yeah, that's unfortunately a product of them being advertised as writers of an effective new era and tone for the series that stuck around long enough that a variety of the problems with those games become synonymous with them to many. Same goes for Roger Craig Smith for some.

I realized that some of the critique isn't completely unearned, given that the flaws with they're style became more evident/noteworthy over time(though Forces is debatable) and they did write the story for Lost World(though how much wasn't they're conceptualization outside of the Zeti is unknown), but I can't help but feel that some of the backlash they've gotten has been unfair.

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I know, but what three dimensions tho?

Not just in general, but also for Amy specifically. 

Eh, not sure TVTropes isn't really that much here, but it defines them as Height(Important), Breadth(Variation), and Depth(Changes?).

However, it's up to them to explain their POV on it.

[RedFox99]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, not sure TVTropes isn't really that much here, but it defines them as Height(Important), Breadth(Variation), and Depth(Changes?).

Not gonna lie, that's an interesting way to describe it.

[Sonic Fan J]

Haven't dropped an unpopular opinion here in a while, but I don't personally think Eggman has to be in every game. I know he's the main antagonist and all, but I see Sonic as a globetrotting adventurer and that the stories of Sonic that we are told are his encounters with Eggman. I'm not of the camp that fighting Eggman is the only type of adventures that Sonic partakes in and it is part of why I enjoy Black Knight's story; I get to see one of Sonic's adventures where he isn't fighting Eggman. It's a nice change of pace and shows us a bit more of Sonic and how he interacts with the world around him when he isn't engaged with Eggman's latest master plan. Honestly, I would even be happy with a Journey-esque game where there is no conflict and you just use Sonic's skillset to traverse through a beautiful and engaging world in a relaxing point-to-point adventure.

[DabigRG]

22 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Haven't dropped an unpopular opinion here in a while, but I don't personally think Eggman has to be in every game.

Uh...yeah....

Again, one of the reasons I was really into the Archie Comics and part of the reason I was relatively excited for Lost World & the Deadly Six is because I like having other, distinct recurring villains for Sonic and the others to go up against besides Eggman, good as he is.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, not sure TVTropes isn't really that much here, but it defines them as Height(Important), Breadth(Variation), and Depth(Changes?).

However, it's up to them to explain their POV on it.

Someone on TV Tropes needs to read the Art of Dramatic Writing by Lajos Egri then, because that’s the source that defines the three dimensions of a character.

And those dimensions are a character’s:

-Psychology 

-Physiology 

-Sociology 

Or in layman’s terms: Personality (psychology), Physical Appearance (physiology), and Background/History (sociology). The very things that apply and define everything about someone (even in real life, funny enough). If you can’t adequately define one of these spheres, then the character lacks a dimension—by this, you can tell that Shadow or Knuckles are three dimensional compared to the likes of, say, the Deadly Six who don’t have a solid sociology aside from being part of a group that lives on Lost Hex.

That’s why I always question people these days, because all too often they don’t really know this fact.

[DabigRG]

31 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Someone on TV Tropes needs to read the Art of Dramatic Writing by Lajos Egri then, because that’s the source that defines the three dimensions of a character.

And those dimensions are a character’s:

-Psychology 

-Physiology 

-Sociology 

Or in layman’s terms: Personality (psychology), Physical Appearance (physiology), and Background/History (sociology). The very things that apply and define everything about someone (even in real life, funny enough). If you can’t adequately define one of these spheres, then the character lacks a dimension—by this, you can tell that Shadow or Knuckles are three dimensional compared to the likes of, say, the Deadly Six who don’t have a solid sociology aside from being part of a group that lives on Lost Hex.

That’s why I always question people these days, because all too often they don’t really know this fact.

Huh. That is actually a really interesting way of looking at it.

How exactly does physiology pan out, though?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Huh. That is actually a really interesting way of looking at it.

How exactly does physiology pan out, though?

It’s basically how you look and what you’re physically capable of.

For example.

Sonic is a teenage, 3 foot tall, blue Hedgehog with green eyes. He’s super fast, able to run faster than the speed of sound, and with the reflexes to match. He’s not absurdly strong, but he’s still capable of single handedly destroying flying battleships that can wipe out whole cities. And he’s resilient enough go toe to toe with living nukes and fighters capable of smashing craters in mountains while taking a beating that would kill a normal person a dozen times over.

And that’s just a summary of one dimension of Sonic.

[Sonic Fan J]

I've never really studied the concept (I really should) but physiology directly affects self perception and how they present themselves to others. For example, a villainous malformed character will be informed in their hatred of the world or anything else by their own malformity. Say they loathe the world because they have been scorned for their looks, or that they believe they are the height of beauty and want to share their malformity with the world. Conversely, a lazy character could appear sloppy because they don't put much stock in their appearance while a vain character will always be fussing about their appearance. How a character appears tells us the audience quite a lot about the character as well as informing how the character sees themselves and the how the world reacts to them. Take someone suffering from leprosy, most people will be repulsed by them and they can either be strong in the face of that or attempt to hide it away. There is a lot that stems from a characters physiology and changes to it can also drastically affect a character. It's a lot more important than people really give it credit. Looking cool is fine, but asking why the character looks cool brings so much more.

EDIT: @Conquering Storm’s Servant really shows another good angle to evaluate physiology from. While my explanation is more social and psychological, physiology unquestionably encompasses physical ability as well which informs a characters physical abilities and limitations.

[E-122-Psi]

As said though, a differing perception of how someone can act impulsive, childlike, intelligent, etc, can be VERY different, and that is how characters often become multi faceted in spite of working of a what are often a small defining set of traits.

Intellect is very subjective for example, you can be a genius in one area, and completely hopeless in another. If anything if a character is very talented in one particular field they may be unwilling to branch out of it, which can open a new can of worms in terms of character flaws. Childishness is similar, since there are good and bad aspects of being childlike, you can be naive and bratty or you can be idealistic and plucky or maybe ALL of them. Hence we have very differing renditions of characters like Tails or Amy, even if they all to some degree follow a similar set of traits.

A lot of characters that have become one note are the result of writers driving them into a particular archetype, only seeing one or two particular traits from their personality mould, or in some cases even just basing them completely off of a formula over being driven by an actual character (eg. Knuckles only being that gullible in regards to his running gag of being tricked by Eggman).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Thing about that is that those traits aren’t all that small. They’re the whole being of a character, mentality, physically, etc.

A character can have similar traits, but they also have those that are different or have gone through a different background.

Shadow is similar to Sonic in physical appearance and abilities as well as some personality, while similar to Knuckles in terms of personality and and sole survivor background. But in addition to having other abilities in the form of his Chaos Powers, he has his own twist in all three in that his background was far more personal and horrific to him, having witnessed it before his eyes and lost people he loved unlike Knuckles who was the sole survivor presumably because everyone else gradually died out—this shapes Shadow’s personality much differently as well as how he uses his abilities as a result, as we see in SA2 where he pursues revenge, whereas Knuckles, who is unaware of the horrors of his ancestral past, was more content to be left alone as he guarded the Master Emerald with no pursuit of revenge. On top of that, while Sonic, Knuckles, and Shadow could easily living weapons, Shadow was tailor made to be such while Sonic and Knuckles were just regular joes with greater than average abilities.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

It’s basically how you look and what you’re physically capable of.

For example.

Sonic is a teenage, 3 foot tall, blue Hedgehog with green eyes. He’s super fast, able to run faster than the speed of sound, and with the reflexes to match. He’s not absurdly strong, but he’s still capable of single handedly destroying flying battleships that can wipe out whole cities. And he’s resilient enough go toe to toe with living nukes and fighters capable of smashing craters in mountains while taking a beating that would kill a normal person a dozen times over.

And that’s just a summary of one dimension of Sonic.

Oooh, so it can be not only how the character looks, but also what kinds of abilities they have.

Okay, that makes more sense now!