Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Oh, I'm not talking about a particular specific design, and I probably should've said Sonic characters rather than just Sonic to be more clear. I'm actually mostly talking about when Sega reveals early designs for modern Sonic characters that didn't make the cut, like today's revelation of early Shadow and Rouge designs and other similar instances.

[Atharun]

Don't agree with these, though

Big suffers from the common portrayal vs presentation problem. People don't like him because they disliked him in SA1. In the books he was presented as a one dimensional character in a lot of ways. The reason that is not a bad thing is because some people are who they are. Not every character has to be this uber complicated with a massive backstory. Big is the blue collar character. Just a nice guy who enjoys the simple things in life. He doesn't mess with others but doesn't back down as shown in the books. He is nice to everyone and accepts everyone without judging. He protects people he cares about as shown with cream. He is basically a loveable giant and nothing less nor more. Thats a good presentation. As I said, sone people just are who they are.

Problem is he is portrayed as a simpleton rather than a simple guy who will never be a rocket scientist book smart type. If je wasn't given the derpy voice and the over the top froggy stuff he'd be liked more I think.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Your Vest Friend]

You don't need the books to get that portrayal of Big, it's shown in the games. Really, it's probably the voice that most contributes to his bad reputation personality-wise, while the whole "Froggy!" meme ignores the context in which these happened (possession in Adventure, abduction in Heroes, stupid writing in Chronicles). Outside of those situations, Big's got the simple handy man thing all over. 

[E-122-Psi]

I genuinely liked Team Rose's dynamic in Heroes. Grating English acting aside, Amy was flanderized for ONE boss fight (with no one else much better) and Big looking after Cream was adorable.

[Muscles Maximum]

While the green eyes debate used to be taken way out of hand way back when, I genuinely believe that from a design standpoint black eyes look LEAGUES better than colored eyes for cartoony type characters. I seriously hate when classic characters with fantastic designs get "modernized" by giving them gross colored irises. I really don't understand this philosophy. Modern Sonic still has a beautiful design. But I still think he'd look better with black eyes, same with pretty much every Sonic character.

WHY

[StaticMania]

18 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

 

WHY

Ya know, the problem with this is less the iris and more the fact they bothered giving him regular eyeballs at all...dat don't look right.

[Honey_Flash]

Unpopular: this familiar video sums up my view on the Sonic Fanbase that thinks Mania is the greatest thing since sliced-bread

also, whenever nostalgia is "Good" or "Bad" it still needs to stop.

[Marco9966]

On 4/1/2018 at 7:46 PM, Strong Guy said:

While the green eyes debate used to be taken way out of hand way back when, I genuinely believe that from a design standpoint black eyes look LEAGUES better than colored eyes for cartoony type characters. I seriously hate when classic characters with fantastic designs get "modernized" by giving them gross colored irises. I really don't understand this philosophy. Modern Sonic still has a beautiful design. But I still think he'd look better with black eyes, same with pretty much every Sonic character.

WHY

Because it helps giving the designs an edge, and adds to their personality and appeal.

On 4/11/2018 at 2:17 AM, Honey_Flash said:

Unpopular: this familiar video sums up my view on the Sonic Fanbase that thinks Mania is the greatest thing since sliced-bread

also, whenever nostalgia is "Good" or "Bad" it still needs to stop.

Agree, we can't advance and have new nice things.

 

[Emerald Chaos]

I think this is an unpopular opinion, not sure. I actually prefer Sonic's mouth in his 3D models to be centered. It makes more sense in a 3D space and historically it tends to lend itself to more expressive models.

Whenever I think of models that have the side mouth I tend to think of him having a dull, static smile on his face. Compare his model in Brawl to Smash 4 for an idea of what I'm talking about. Also my mind often gets stuck on the fact that it shows up on both sides of his mouth, like he has two holes on either side that seal up when you're not looking at one.

I know the side smile is iconic of the character, but I feel like it doesn't work as well in 3D

My preference is a more centered mouth and maybe have it move slightly to the side if he's grinning or something

[Austroid]

5 hours ago, Emerald Chaos said:

I think this is an unpopular opinion, not sure. I actually prefer Sonic's mouth in his 3D models to be centered. It makes more sense in a 3D space and historically it tends to lend itself to more expressive models.

Whenever I think of models that have the side mouth I tend to think of him having a dull, static smile on his face. Compare his model in Brawl to Smash 4 for an idea of what I'm talking about. Also my mind often gets stuck on the fact that it shows up on both sides of his mouth, like he has two holes on either side that seal up when you're not looking at one.

I know the side smile is iconic of the character, but I feel like it doesn't work as well in 3D

My preference is a more centered mouth and maybe have it move slightly to the side if he's grinning or something

I feel the same way. The whole side-mouth thing only works in 2D.

I remember the opening scene for Shadow the Hedgehog where he's turning around to speak to Black Doom's hologram, and you can literally see his mouth move to the other side of his face as he's turning!

Also let's not forget Super Sonic's model in Lost World:

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Austroid said:

...and you can literally see his mouth move to the other side of his face as he's turning!

No you can't. When he opens his mouth again it's slightly centered from the side it was already on and slightly shifts back after he closes it again.

The actual thing that happens with the mouth in that scene is worse to be honest.

[Sgt Nate V]

On 4/1/2018 at 12:46 PM, Strong Guy said:

While the green eyes debate used to be taken way out of hand way back when, I genuinely believe that from a design standpoint black eyes look LEAGUES better than colored eyes for cartoony type characters. I seriously hate when classic characters with fantastic designs get "modernized" by giving them gross colored irises. I really don't understand this philosophy. Modern Sonic still has a beautiful design. But I still think he'd look better with black eyes, same with pretty much every Sonic character.

WHY

The redesign actually looked fine in Pac-Man Party.

But then Ghostly Adventures fucked it up by giving him teeth.

[Iko]

On 26/3/2018 at 6:58 PM, NikoS said:

Unpopular (?): Sonic Generations was a huge mistake. Now, before anyone says anything, let me explain myself,

Generations is a great game, but one thing that came with it is freakin' terrible, the game cemented the idea of a "classic" Sonic and a "modern" Sonic, which is a huge thing now more than ever, and because of it we now have (or seem to have at least) certain characters/concepts stuck in one of these "universes", such as Mighty and Ray (and probably the Hooligans too) being "classic" characters and due to that they won't appear on IDW 'cause it is on the "modern" setting. I do agree that having two separate styles of games is a good idea, but it could be done without this behavior of "this is classic stuff, stays here", "modern stuff, here".

(ps: 'Twan is awesome!!)

I agree with you, that's one of the reasons why I dislike games such as Generations and Mania... one of the reasons, there are more than just one but this is definitely one of them.

 

Unpopular opinion 1: Classic Sonic wasn't always good. Sonic 2 is my least favorite classic game and I actually think it's not a good game, because it has some cheap level design (especially Metropolis, but not only that), bland level themes (Never been a fan of Mystic Cave zone nor Hill Top and Oil Ocean, and even Aquatic Ruin, while I like it level design wise, I think the level theme is bland and uninspired... all those zones are incredibly forgettable), confused level themes progression, worst level in the series (sky chase) that features bad gameplay (and it was remade in Sonic 4 and Sonic Mania without any improvement), cheap and unfair special stages that become completely broken if you have Tails as partner, and an incredibly unfair final boss; the game feels too long, boring; the only credit I give to the game is Casino Night Zone that's a pretty neat concept that had an huge impact on the series.

On the other hand, I like Sonic 1, and I have no problems with Labyrinth; though, there is stuff that I dislike from Sonic 1 as well, such as Marble Zone as a whole, the elevators in Spring Yard, and the level design in Starlight Zone (repetitive and linear, with annoying orbinauts).

Sonic 3 and &Knuckles are miles better than both (except the barrel of doom), and I especially prefer the Sonic 3 side of the game.

While I like it more than Sonic 2, I'm also not a big fan of Sonic CD and its messy level design, though I like some of its concepts such as the time travel system and the concept of altering the levels with your actions (good future/bad future); the Super Peel-Out is redundant and out of place.

I place Sonic Mania slighty above Sonic CD, with the difference that in Sonic CD there are experimental concepts with potential (as I said before), while I think Sonic Mania doesn't offer anything new; I think Sonic 1 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles are superior games in every aspect, especially bosses. Small side note, I have no proofs, but I suspect that the Drop Dash was introduced in the development of Sonic Forces before it being in Mania, and people overpraise it just for thinking it's an "innovation" brought in by Mania... the thrut is that the Drop Dash is one of those moves made to launch Sonic at max speed with no effort and into an invincible status, just like the Boost, so it's very likely that the "innovation" came from Sonic Team and not from Christian Whitehead (especially since in Sonic Lost World ST already demonstered the will to transform the spindash/rolling into a boost in disguise).

If I should make a chart, it would be

Bad:

• Sonic 2

Meh:

• Sonic CD
• Sonic Mania

Decent:

• Sonic 1

Good:

• Sonic & Knuckles
• Sonic 3

Unpopular opinion 2: I like to consider the Advance games along with the classics. I don't believe what people say that they are terrible, I think they are totally enjoyable and comparable with the classics, quality-wise, and really can't see how they have "bad physics", physics are a bit different compared to the actual classics, but they still have momentum-based gameplay and most of the tricks that you can do in the classics (maybe they are less accurate, but you should also consider that those games are on GBA, and that a porting of Sonic 1 on that console simply didn't work, probably due to hardware limitations).

I think that people who say that Sonic Advance 1 is linear and automated are just lying, because aside of some speed boosters placed here and there (that most of the times are optional and I think they are placed for Amy more than anything), the levels are all but linear, especially the late ones, Egg Rocket being the least linear of all.

There is some cheap enemy placement in the Advance games, there is some cheap enemy placement in the Classic games as well, especially Sonic 2, I can't see the difference.

I never had any issue with bottomless pits in any of those games, I occasionally fall, but the same happens in the classics; maybe there are less bottomless pits overall, but the same can't be said for crushing platforms; I think that overall, the amount of cheap deaths is just the same in both series.

I think that Sonic Advance 2 is a bit empty and linear, and it has some design flaws such as the method you access the special stages, though it's still one of my favorite games because I think it's a proof of concept of a gameplay style that still has potential, and with a better level design and more development, it could have become a very good formula.

Advance 3 takes several steps backward from Advance 2 (in content and level design), aiming for quantity over quality, and while I still enjoyed it, it's not really my favorite game.

Now I want to make a new chart with the Advance games in it:

Bad:

• Sonic 2
• Sonic Advance 3

Meh:

• Sonic CD
• Sonic Mania
• Sonic Advance 2

Decent:

• Sonic 1
• Sonic Advance 1

Good:

• Sonic & Knuckles
• Sonic 3

As I said, I think that Sonic Advance 2 has the potential to reach the Good tier with better level design and more development (better and more creative level gimmicks, transition cutscenes, more balanced movesets for characters, etc.); I see it as an extremely innovative game that originated the modern era, I think the formula is good but the execution is mediocre, and the subsequent games just took the worst elements of it and scrapped the good ones instead (Rush), and that's a shame.

I don't expect anybody to agree with me, but that's my opinion.

[Muscles Maximum]

Here’s something I’m not sure whether is popular or unpopular at this point, but I think the Super Peel Out is not at all pointless or obsolete.

The Peel Out is a way for you to charge up and get to max speed right away. The spin dash has a similar purpose, but when you’re rolling you lose that speed super quick unless you happen to be going downhill. With the Peel Out you remain in a running state so you’re vulnerable to enemies, you won’t lose speed going uphill or on flat terrain, and because of your vulnerability, you gotta quickly choose to roll into an enemy and lose your speed potentially, or just jump over them.

Another thing is that I think it funcions much better than the boost, because for one, because of the overpowered nature of the boost, they gotta limit it to capsules, destroying enemies, wisps (ugh), or rings. And I can’t imagine them going back to rings to sustain the boost because then it’s basically never ending. And should you ever run out of boost, then Sonic’s movement is awkward and limited as hell. Things like this make me REALLY wish they’d have kept the Super Peel Out for Sonic’s 3D outings. Though I supposed they’d need to have a successful formula with proper momentum and rolling like Utopia to get the best use of it. Then the one time they did include it in a 3D game in Lost World, they made it absolutely worthless. Sonic sits there looking bad as hell revving up his legs and you’re like aw yeah the Peel Out is back baby and then you blast off at a staggering 3 mph. Why.

Plus I prefer the idea of Sonic having to rev up for a moment to then be able to blast off at top speed. Whenever he does this in the OVA or in Mania’s intro is just so cool. Really adds a lot of extra oomph to his sheer speed. Oh and it looks flashy as hell and is perfectly fitting as a Sonic signature move that’s truly uniquely his. 

[Silvereyes]

A few things about the way characters are used in the Sonic games:

1) I don't think there is anything wrong with all characters not being equal to each other in importance. When you have something like 2 dozen Sonic characters, I think it's inevitable that there is going to be a tier system. I think it's a good idea for characters to have a defined role, even if that role is what their relationship to Sonic is. I think Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Shadow have relatively clear motivations, but alot of characters don't have that.

I think Rouge and Omega are fine by being Shadow's sidekicks in their own little team, since it gives them something to do. But then you have people like Silver, Blaze and the Chaotix where I really get the feeling nobody knows what to do with them, especially when Silver and Blaze once upon a time where on Sonic's level, but nowadays are regulated to being side characters who can never put up a fight against whatever the villian of the week is.

I don't want the franchise for all the plots to have Sonic be the only one capable and everyone else needs Sonic. But I don't think every character needs to important. I'd put characters like Cream, Big, the Chaotix into secondary characters. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Shadow as the core cast. I think I'd put characters like Silver and Blaze into the recurring cast, essentially characters who are on Sonic's level, but do their own thing, and don't turn up all the time. When they turn up, it means something is going to happen involving them in a big way. In terms of characters specifically:

2) Tails: nothing drastic, just make him capable of being by himself, still friends with Sonic, still looks up to him, not that powerful, but isn't completely useless and can survive without Sonic. Essentially build on him being confident from his side story in Adventure 1.

3) Knuckles: Honestly, I'm not too sure what to do with Knuckles. At the risk of bringing in a Dragon Ball comparison, which happens alot on this forum, I can't help but think Knuckles is the equivelant of Piccolo while Shadow is Vegeta. Piccolo used to be Goku's rival turned friend, so when Vegeta became the rival, Piccolo lost that aspect to him. I can't help but think Shadow does what Knuckles used to be, and I don't think they know what to give him. In DBZ, Piccolo ofcourse got his own thing with Gohan which kept him relevant. With Knuckles, I'm not sure he has anything like that. Arguably you could say Angel Island and the Master Emerald should do that, but I'm not sure how much you can wring out of those 2 elements. (Also does the Ken Penders stuff mean no more Echnidas can ever appear in Sonic? No idea, just asking.)

I think Knuckles needs something to define him, so perhaps getting rid of Angel Island, like Eggman blowing it up in a story would be good for him. Otherwise, not sure what I'd do with him honestly, aside from making him never fall for another of Eggman's schemes.

4) Amy: Never been the biggest fan of her. However, from what I've seen of Boom, she seems pretty good in that show, so I'd probably just use that personality, maybe just less comedically.

5) Shadow: I think he's mostly fine, basically being Sonic's rival and the edgy anti-hero. I'd maybe just make him clash with Sonic more, enthasise him being more morally grey, and try and avoid making him out as a villian. Also keep him competant, so that he always seems to be on Sonic's level.

6) Blaze: Like I said, I'd keep her more as a recurring character, but one who makes an impact everytime she shows up. I feel like her alternate dimension could be host for a good story. Also the fact that she is a bit of a mirror of Sonic could be played up, what with her being the main hero in her universe but their very different personalities.

7) Silver: I honestly think they should retcon Silver at this point. Maybe just get rid of his time travel stuff, and find him a new role, or even new backstory. It also feels a bit awkward with him at one point being on par with Sonic and Shadow, but that will probably never happen again. I think it might be a good idea to just do a massive retooling of him.

8) Rouge: I don't really care about Rouge. The one change I would make for her is her outfit, I think it's a bit cringeworthy honestly for a kid's franchise. Not that I think any kid is going to be horribly scarred by her cleveage, I just think it's just kindof weird. This is more of a me thing though, so it doesn't bother me that much, but I would happily give her a complete redesign with a modest outfit.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, silvereye27 said:

Arguably you could say Angel Island and the Master Emerald should do that, but I'm not sure how much you can wring out of those 2 elements. (Also does the Ken Penders stuff mean no more Echnidas can ever appear in Sonic? No idea, just asking.)

A whole fucking lot is what you can wring out of. In the hands of a very creative writer, the stuff you can do with those two elements is limitless.

The problem is that a lot of people simply don’t want to put the effort into it, or consider the thoughts of those who will. And I say this from experience.

[Sonic Fan J]

So I'll make my introductory post to SSMB a sharing of an unpopular opinion that made me feel like I was ostracized after sharing it on the SEGA Forums. I figure if I start by sharing it everyone here will have an idea of how extreme my viewpoints can be. Anyway, enough wasting text.

 

I don't like Amy's Piko Piko Hammer.

It's not that it's just a random feeling either as when I was first introduced to it in SA1 I actually enjoyed the gameplay associated with it. The problem is as the franchise progressed and lost any semblance of having a cohesive identity like a lot of people I started looking at what the franchise was to me and I fell back on my favorite game; Sonic CD. Amy was not created with the hammer and looking at all of her appearances pre-Adventure she only had it for one game and in the very next game it was gone. Despite that, these days everyone places her hammer everywhere including in her pre-Adventure appearances and make's gameplay arguments that leave me feeling like her hammer is more important than she is. One of the most striking examples of this problem to me is in the first Mega Drive comic when everyone attacks Eggman in Cascade Temple where everyone is in panel except for Amy who is represented instead by her hammer. As an Amy fan this bothers me to no end even as I accept that her hammer is an integral element of her design from Adventure onward. The problem is that pre-Adventure I don't perceive Amy as needing it nor it being an integral part of her character. I actually go so far as to feel that even though she played the role of damsel-in-distress and arguably was meant to fill that role that even Sonic Team (Oshima's team anyway) actually accidentally give's me grounds to see her as spectacularly competent beside some bad luck. If you actually stop to look at what the game shows you you'll see Amy get's up onto Little Planet on her own, get's ahead of Sonic to Collision Chaos, makes it through Metallic Madness (a deathtrap laden place if ever there was one), and is only actually stopped by Metal Sonic who Sonic arguably can't do anything about. All of this is accomplished in Amy's first game and without her Piko Piko Hammer as it is years before it is even added to her character. As a result, when I see people talk about making Amy playable in Mania or a potential sequel and argue for her hammer I find myself in the opposing camp and instead asking to see how she can be made unique if molded to fit the original design concept that gave birth to even Sonic himself. It may seem like a daunting task and even counterproductive with the modern branding being the primary face of the franchise, but with the classics now being truly separated and Hoshino (Amy's original designer for the games) still being with SEGA it seems to me like the possibility to see her without the hammer as she was for most of her pre-Adventure appearances in a main platformer still exists. In fact, the fact that even Ray is being adapted for Mania with no existing original moveset gives me hope that if tasked with it Whitehead and team with Hoshino's help could give something magical.

 

Anyway, that's my introductory rant and unpopular opinion. Hope I wasn't too abrasive and i look forward to my time here.

Nice to meet everyone

[Ashwalking Bat]

On 4/14/2018 at 10:43 AM, Strong Guy said:

Here’s something I’m not sure whether is popular or unpopular at this point, but I think the Super Peel Out is not at all pointless or obsolete.

The Peel Out is a way for you to charge up and get to max speed right away. The spin dash has a similar purpose, but when you’re rolling you lose that speed super quick unless you happen to be going downhill. With the Peel Out you remain in a running state so you’re vulnerable to enemies, you won’t lose speed going uphill or on flat terrain, and because of your vulnerability, you gotta quickly choose to roll into an enemy and lose your speed potentially, or just jump over them.

Another thing is that I think it funcions much better than the boost, because for one, because of the overpowered nature of the boost, they gotta limit it to capsules, destroying enemies, wisps (ugh), or rings. And I can’t imagine them going back to rings to sustain the boost because then it’s basically never ending. And should you ever run out of boost, then Sonic’s movement is awkward and limited as hell. Things like this make me REALLY wish they’d have kept the Super Peel Out for Sonic’s 3D outings. Though I supposed they’d need to have a successful formula with proper momentum and rolling like Utopia to get the best use of it. Then the one time they did include it in a 3D game in Lost World, they made it absolutely worthless. Sonic sits there looking bad as hell revving up his legs and you’re like aw yeah the Peel Out is back baby and then you blast off at a staggering 3 mph. Why.

Plus I prefer the idea of Sonic having to rev up for a moment to then be able to blast off at top speed. Whenever he does this in the OVA or in Mania’s intro is just so cool. Really adds a lot of extra oomph to his sheer speed. Oh and it looks flashy as hell and is perfectly fitting as a Sonic signature move that’s truly uniquely his. 

I cannot say it's an unpopular opinion, as much as a under-talked about topic when it comes to Sonic. Everyone has been talking about how shitty the boost mechanic is for the recent gen Sonic games and how it's getting worse. Not that I disagree. Sonic Forces being the most recent offender of a rather horrendous boost mechanic.

But getting back on tangent, though. I actually do too feel like the Super Peel Out needs more love and you've pretty much covered the why on that. If anything it would certainly work pretty well with 3D sonic and it could end up giving Sonic something of his own, other than the homing attack. But I am not sure if it'll be ever seen outside of fan works in this day and age[correct me if I am wrong on that front]. And it's a lot to do with the direction Sonic is going in.

[Sonic Fan J]

16 minutes ago, Ashwalking Bat said:

I cannot say it's an unpopular opinion, as much as a under-talked about topic when it comes to Sonic. Everyone has been talking about how shitty the boost mechanic is for the recent gen Sonic games and how it's getting worse. Not that I disagree. Sonic Forces being the most recent offender of a rather horrendous boost mechanic.

But getting back on tangent, though. I actually do too feel like the Super Peel Out needs more love and you've pretty much covered the why on that. If anything it would certainly work pretty well with 3D sonic and it could end up giving Sonic something of his own, other than the homing attack. But I am not sure if it'll be ever seen outside of fan works in this day and age[correct me if I am wrong on that front]. And it's a lot to do with the direction Sonic is going in.

I'd love the Peel out to return as well but would be happy just with it being used as Sonic's top speed animation as long as it is wild like in the Sonic CD opening and not weak like in Lost World.

[Ashwalking Bat]

4 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I'd love the Peel out to return as well but would be happy just with it being used as Sonic's top speed animation as long as it is wild like in the Sonic CD opening and not weak like in Lost World.

You and me both. It's just unfortunate that it's overshadowed by other things. Though that's why fan works, like Mania, can help return forgotten things.

[Sonic Fan J]

True, though admittedly I wish they had gone with the Peel Out instead of the Sonic 2 Beta inspired animation they did for the standard. This may be another unpopular opinion but I can't stand it and have never been able to understand why modders like using the Sonic 2 Beta animation when even Naka and teem dropped it in favor of the original animation from Sonic 1.

[Ashwalking Bat]

8 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

True, though admittedly I wish they had gone with the Peel Out instead of the Sonic 2 Beta inspired animation they did for the standard. This may be another unpopular opinion but I can't stand it and have never been able to understand why modders like using the Sonic 2 Beta animation when even Naka and teem dropped it in favor of the original animation from Sonic 1.

It maybe due to the personal tastes of the modders, or maybe it could be due to reasons with coding. I cannot say, since I am not a modder myself. But if I could guess, it maybe more due Sonic 2 beta being pretty commonly liked despite what went on in the background in Sega.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Ashwalking Bat

[Sonic Fan J]

1 minute ago, Ashwalking Bat said:

It maybe due to the personal tastes of the modders, or maybe it could be due to reasons with coding. I cannot say, since I am not a modder myself. But if I could guess, it maybe more due Sonic 2 being pretty commonly liked as a game despite what went on in the background in Sega.

I guess that makes sense. Though Sonic 2 is easily my least favorite of the classics (it does have my favorite version of Super Sonic though) I still played, especially with my younger brother, more than any game outside of Sonic CD. That and it is the single top selling game in franchise history the last time I checked. Looking at it like that using the Beta animation as way of showing their love of Sonic 2 makes a lot of sense. I'll respect that even as I lament that I don't find it an aesthetically pleasing animation.

[Muscles Maximum]

5 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I don't like Amy's Piko Piko Hammer.

I'm not gonna say I agree with you, because I like the hammer and it's become such an important part of Amy's character over the years that the idea of having Amy without her hammer would be bizarre. Though I do have a pretty uh... unique view of Amy and her hammer though. I made a post not long ago saying how I headcanon Amy to basically work really hard on her physical abilities to better improve herself and to be more useful and ultimately to impress Sonic. And how throughout her playable appearances she basically relies on her hammer less and less.

My favorite incarnation of Amy is her Advance 2 self. She's basically just Sonic with a hammer attack. She's super fast, rolls around everywhere, and basically seems stronger than she's ever been. While I like Amy's hammer, I would love it if eventually she progressed to the point where she doesn't need it anymore and she just kind of keeps it in her closet as a keepsake. 

The only problem is that if she no longer has her hammer, what could they possibly do to make her stand out from Sonic? Now, I'm not one who's normally bothered by characters playing similarly to others. I like how in Sonic Heroes all the speed types are basically Sonic with very very minor alterations. I actually prefer Shadow being a straight up alt skin of Sonic as opposed to him using his chaos powers and I dislike how drastically they changed him up from Sonic in 06. Near reskins don't bother me at all. But I know I'm in a huge minority when it comes to that idea. I can feel it in my bones. If they get rid of Amy's hammer, I have a hard time seeing her not being just a Sonic skin. As an aside I'd actually like it a lot if when it came to Amy they'd show her copying Sonic's abilities, and then over time she learns to kinda use them in her own unique way. But that's asking too much of Sonic Team. Plus I understand the bias of my own personal views I'm placing onto Amy and the series. So just as you said how she managed all that in CD without her hammer, I'm willing to bet basically since her recreation for SA1, we're meant to believe she's always had the hammer and has always relied on it even if it's never directly shown.

Another thing, I know it'll never happen. This franchise is not much for character growth, and the piko piko hammer is so much a part of Amy's character that they'll never give it up. Be it main Sonic Team pillar, the classic Mania dimension, or any of the comic's. The thing's not going anywhere.

[Sonic Fan J]

16 hours ago, Strong Guy said:

I'm not gonna say I agree with you, because I like the hammer and it's become such an important part of Amy's character over the years that the idea of having Amy without her hammer would be bizarre. Though I do have a pretty uh... unique view of Amy and her hammer though. I made a post not long ago saying how I headcanon Amy to basically work really hard on her physical abilities to better improve herself and to be more useful and ultimately to impress Sonic. And how throughout her playable appearances she basically relies on her hammer less and less.

My favorite incarnation of Amy is her Advance 2 self. She's basically just Sonic with a hammer attack. She's super fast, rolls around everywhere, and basically seems stronger than she's ever been. While I like Amy's hammer, I would love it if eventually she progressed to the point where she doesn't need it anymore and she just kind of keeps it in her closet as a keepsake. 

The only problem is that if she no longer has her hammer, what could they possibly do to make her stand out from Sonic? Now, I'm not one who's normally bothered by characters playing similarly to others. I like how in Sonic Heroes all the speed types are basically Sonic with very very minor alterations. I actually prefer Shadow being a straight up alt skin of Sonic as opposed to him using his chaos powers and I dislike how drastically they changed him up from Sonic in 06. Near reskins don't bother me at all. But I know I'm in a huge minority when it comes to that idea. I can feel it in my bones. If they get rid of Amy's hammer, I have a hard time seeing her not being just a Sonic skin. As an aside I'd actually like it a lot if when it came to Amy they'd show her copying Sonic's abilities, and then over time she learns to kinda use them in her own unique way. But that's asking too much of Sonic Team. Plus I understand the bias of my own personal views I'm placing onto Amy and the series. So just as you said how she managed all that in CD without her hammer, I'm willing to bet basically since her recreation for SA1, we're meant to believe she's always had the hammer and has always relied on it even if it's never directly shown.

Another thing, I know it'll never happen. This franchise is not much for character growth, and the piko piko hammer is so much a part of Amy's character that they'll never give it up. Be it main Sonic Team pillar, the classic Mania dimension, or any of the comic's. The thing's not going anywhere.

There's no doubt that Amy's hammer has become a particularly integral part of her character, but the bolded part above is one of the reasons that I find myself disliking the hammer more and more as I think about the history of the franchise, what it is today, what it was, and what it might become. Specifically the part that bothers me most in the bolded text is mentioning Sonic Team not giving up Amy's hammer even on the classic side of things. The reason being is that until the Mega Drive Comics came out the only time you saw Amy with a hammer in her classic design was in Sonic the Fighters and affiliated media (Only a few posters for the arcade cabinet to my knowledge with not even all of them having her hammer visible). Despite this, the affiliation with the hammer and Amy is so strong that fans started affiliating it even with her classic design when it only had one appearance up to the release of Sonic Mega Drive. This fan affiliation reached probably its strongest representation with the Rom Hacks of Amy in Sonic 1, 2, And 3&K where a fan (I believe they go by the handle Psi-121) put her advance moveset in those games using her classic design and the hammer from Sonic the Fighters. For all of the praise I hear for these hacks however I find it peculiar that no one ever looks at the side of the argument that introducing that moveset ignores the design concept in use in those days. Consequently, from a legal standpoint, those hacks are actually a good reason for SEGA not to do the same for say Mania as it could come across a stealing a fan idea, and unlike a forum post these hacks are well known amongst the community which would force SEGA to come up with a distinct moveset for Amy if added to Mania. At least that's my opinion but since Hoshino, Amy's original designer for the games, is still with SEGA he would be a good person to start with to imagine something if he were to his mind back into the mindset he had when working on Sonic CD years before a hammer in any form appeared.

 

Further on the gameplay side of things, with narrative considered, the only thing Amy really lacked back in the pre-Adventure days was speed which shouldn't really matter since Knuckles was never described as having speed comparable to Sonic's. If you consider Sonic Drift (I use this example due to a translation I was given that in the Japanese manual Sonic claims the car he drives is almost as fast as he is) and Sonic R, Amy had the ability and reflexes to drive cars that could compete with Sonic in a race so whether it was by sheer accident or carelessness there are numerous places one can look and find evidence of Amy being able to step into the traditional platforming style of the games without her hammer. I do agree with you however that after nearly 18 years of her using the hammer and the classic line being all but ignored it is difficult to imagine way's to make her play.  Using your comfortableness with Shadow being a reskin though and my arguments against Amy's hammer being primarily aimed at the classic designs and use in the original design concept, I'll use my thoughts from the Mania Plus thread to argue for unique shield powers to differentiate the reskins. While the only example I have for Amy over there is giving her a homing attack with the thunder shield (though I did say she should be able to swim like Tails just because hedgehogs can supposedly swim decently) Shadow could take a page from Revenge of Shinobi (Super Shinobi if you prefer the Japanese title XD) where his shield powers would be projectiles fired off when performing a second Jump command; e.g. Flame Shield would be spread shot like from Shinobi, Thunder Shield would give him a homing shot, and Aqua Shield would give him a splash attack similar to the instant shield. In this way you can use shields to both make clones reasonably different and encourage further exploration to gain access to these shields to get to experience these differences as often as possible. Admittedly, it's no perfect solution and it doesn't address the affiliation with Amy and her hammer which is even freshly attributed in peoples' mind thanks to the Mega Drive comics. A shame really since I think there is plenty of opportunity to expand beyond the hammer with a little imagination and in the case of Mania see how she can be imagined if she had been made playable in a traditional game before she was given her hammer.

 

Spoiler

To anyone affiliated with SEGA who just so happens to be reading this on some off chance don't worry about the legal headache, I give you guys full authority to make use of any ideas I present for the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise without need to consult me or worry about buying the ideas from me. Just make it awesome please XD.

 

On a final note on clones and or reskins, most people as far as I can tell still enjoy Sonic 2 including playing as Tails who is a nearly perfect clone of Sonic there and over in the Mario franchise from what I hear the gameplay differences between characters mainly boils down to speed, acceleration, deceleration, and use of inertia/momentum with maybe some differences in jumping ability. Or to summarize, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with reskins if the game is built well though that is probably a different argument.