Does Sonic really need a story?

[Diogenes]

I believe that the world building of the Sonic franchiese is so amazingly vast that is almost an insult not to have good writting in those games.

my opinion.

Frankly I don't think they've ever done much world-building. There's been almost no attempt to build a consistent world, just a bunch of separate things based on whatever whim is currently guiding them. Here we've got an ancient water spirit and a lost civilization, there we've got secret genetic experiments and a government coverup, over there is a race of evil aliens preparing to invade, and to your left you'll see the dualistic gods that occasionally destroy and rebuild the planet. There's basically no connection between any of these things, no coherent world that they fit into, just a bunch of Ideas That Sound Neat attached to the same series.

I'll give you that Sonic Generations is probably not the best example but I still think the mythology is getting confusing when some people don't know anything about Shadow or Silver.

There's nothing especially confusing about Shadow and Silver. If you're just talking about not knowing their deal because you haven't played (or don't really remember) the games where they play a major role, that's not really a fault of the storytelling so much as a consequence of having any kind of continual story.

[Eternal EX]

Whoooa calm down man.

I meant the series was getting 'mature' and grown up and didn't know which direction it wanted to go down.

I love Kung Fu Panda too (Not a fan of My Little Pony though)

The series is getting mature and grown up? What exactly do you mean by that?

Jumping back on whoever said Shadow was a mature dark game. I laugh at you. Shadow was (my assumption) to be the deepest told story in the franchise. It's just ST fucked up BAD by giving him guns, bad gameplay and a half ass story. Sure the cussing wasn't needed but oddly it fit Shadow and maybe Knuckles. In the end of the day, SHTH served it's purpose as to telling Shadow's origin. It didn't do a very good job of it but it told it.

And to answer the OP. Yes. It does need a story, and has always had a story. Like someone already said, even the classic era games had a story. Sure Sonic 1 and 2 were very bare. But with the ending of S2 gave birth to S3 which later lead to S&K. And for a game that had NO dialogue, S3&K worked out perfectly. Now that alll characters have a voice, the story is more important now than it was in the 90s. We want to know what's going on. Sure "moving around at the speed of" is nice. But why do "I have places to go and follow a rainbow"? I sure as hell would like to know why I'm heading to an eggy base. He may be a villain but why am I about to attack his base? What did he do this time? And will Eggman finally stop sonic from screwing up his plans? So to me a story in a sonic game is important.

[Scar]

Yeah, they kind of do need a story. They just need to heavily modify the way its told.

Too many cutscenes, too much expository dialogue is not necessary. Sonic Team can create vast beautiful landscapes in their stages, why not use them to tell part of the story. The bulk of the dialogue would then just need to be character interaction and such, until the very late stages of the plot. We can see what is happening so we don't need it to be explained to us constantly.

OK that veered off topic for a bit.

But yes, Sonic does need a story. There are lots of interesting things to be discussed about various things in the Sonic canon. Stuff like the Chaos Emeralds, various characters and heck even the history of some of the stages themselves would be interesting to explore. Once explored they can be relegated to collectibles and/or optional bits of backstory/character bios you can read through in later games to bring yourself loosely up to speed.

[Diogenes]

Jumping back on whoever said Shadow was a mature dark game. I laugh at you. Shadow was (my assumption) to be the deepest told story in the franchise.

If this was ever true, it was thrown out real early, as there's basically no depth at all to ShtH.

In the end of the day, SHTH served it's purpose as to telling Shadow's origin.

SA2 showed us Shadow's origin. ShtH piled a bunch of crap on top of it.

[Anti Alias]

Shit, I fucking love Kung Fu Panda aswell.

(not part of the fanbase by any means, but I really like the movies)

I wish Sonic had a storytelling similar to that one from Kung Fu panda 2, it was not amazing but it was a good, simple story very well told.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Nepenthe]

Kung Fu Panda 2 actually had some pretty impressive emotional and visual depth in its narrative at points, best exemplified by that one scene in the middle that always makes me cry. But there's such overwhelming opposition to the idea of a cartoony hedgehog getting a story beyond smashing up things and being snarky in the process that the idea that a Sonic game's narrative could ever match a DreamWorks film's is a pipe dream at this point, and that makes me sad and frustrated.

[Anti Alias]

Kung Fu Panda 2 actually had some pretty impressive emotional and visual depth in its narrative at points, best exemplified by that one scene in the middle that always makes me cry. But there's such overwhelming opposition to the idea of a cartoony hedgehog getting a story beyond smashing up things and being snarky in the process that the idea that a Sonic game's narrative could ever match a DreamWorks film's is a pipe dream at this point, and that makes me sad and frustrated.

color it my personal pipe dream so.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Kung Fu Panda 2 actually had some pretty impressive emotional and visual depth in its narrative at points, best exemplified by that one scene in the middle that always makes me cry. But there's such overwhelming opposition to the idea of a cartoony hedgehog getting a story beyond smashing up things and being snarky in the process that the idea that a Sonic game's narrative could ever match a DreamWorks film's is a pipe dream at this point, and that makes me sad and frustrated.

Considering a portion of the Sonic Fanbase (I won't say how big) can barely spell or make a coherent argument as it is, Kung Fu Panda 2 must have been the equivalent of Shakespeare to them. I know that's what I felt about Shakespeare the first time I read one of his plays.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Frankenstein Joe

[Old dead account]

Whether the Dark or lighter stories are your preference, I think we can agree that it's all in the excecution of the plot.

If we're talking about cutscenes and VAs though, I have no problem with the current VAs, but I would like to see how thesonic world would handle a story in the way that Metroid Prime tells it. Not a drop of dialogue, You'd have to actually explore the place, see the environment change due to Eggman's interferance, read computer monitors in a mechanical level, etc. i think that would make it quite interesting and immersive and would let you construct the plot yourself and piece it together feeling that you and Sonic are more or less as one person.

[Diogenes]

If we're talking about cutscenes and VAs though, I have no problem with the current VAs, but I would like to see how thesonic world would handle a story in the way that Metroid Prime tells it. Not a drop of dialogue, You'd have to actually explore the place, see the environment change due to Eggman's interferance, read computer monitors in a mechanical level, etc. i think that would make it quite interesting and immersive and would let you construct the plot yourself and piece it together feeling that you and Sonic are more or less as one person.

Yeah but how's that going to work in a Sonic game? Metroid's been built around slow-paced exploration and searching every nook and cranny from the start, so integrating the story into that makes sense. They give you a scan visor and tell you to wave it over anything that looks suspicious/interesting, and you dig up the story the same as you dig up all those missiles, energy tanks, and power bombs. But Sonic's about running, you never stay in one place for very long. Stopping to read a monitor is basically the antithesis of Sonic gameplay, regardless of which "Sonic gameplay" we're talking about.

I'm not saying that nothing can be done to integrate story elements with the level design and gameplay, but it's not going to work just copying the methods of a wildly different series. First off, unless you're going to drop the storytelling complexity down to around S3&K-level (in the best case), you're not going to be able to tell the whole story within the gameplay. Sonic moves fast; you don't have time to communicate details. The player's not going to want to pause the game and read through a datalog mid-level (and probably not between levels, either), they're not going to want to stand around and watch some cutscene in the background. Anything you want to communicate, you have to do it in seconds. And you need to do it clearly, and without distracting the player to the point of getting them killed. For anything more than a second or two, you need a controlled space. Somewhere where you can very nearly guarantee the pace that the player will be moving at. This is especially difficult and important because of how fast Sonic can move; you get it wrong and the player is likely either to blow past the event or for the event to outrun the player. Plus, keep in mind that the series already has trouble with the overuse of restrictive and automated sections. You don't want to create a chunk of level that looks cool once and is then boring to play every other time.

Check

This is the kind of thing you can work with when telling the story through the environment while keeping the pace up. It only lasts a few seconds, it communicates something simple clearly (tikis ganked your bananas), and it has minimal impact on the gameplay (it's a short empty section that you simply run through). And keep in mind you'd be doing this with a character that can move at ridiculous speeds, a character who could blow past that scene before the blimp even got on screen.

[Old dead account]

I was thinking of that kind of thing happening in the Hubworlds (if there are any) where you actually do want to look around rather than the actual levels. Actually, that DKCR example could be the solution to the long empty BOOOOSH corridors, in a way, giving them a purpose...while reducing their number.

[Wittymations]

Sonic's had a story since the Classics. Maybe it was a little less detailed, but it was there -- and majorly important to 3 and CD.

It's in Sonic's best interest to have a story. Now, does that means that Sonic should go back to being a melodramatic box of drama? Or have more gun-slinging, alien-infested games that would make you constipated from it being so cheesy? Heaven's no.

But a story, good story, can really be helpful and drive the player to play.

Later games, like SA1 and 2 were probably in the best direction -- story-wise. We met characters, got introduced to new forms of mythos, and learned some interesting background information. They didn't go over-the-top at certain things. SA2 is probably the limit for how dark a Sonic games should ever go.

The darkness factor, itself, depends on the game. Colors had a dark element to it -- yeah, even there. Those Wisps are being tortured by Robotnik, you know. If they had a single scene of a close up of a Wisp in those tubes, the game as a whole would have taken a whole 180 in attitude.

I never really felt like Sonic was a children's series as much as just a series. But even if it is, look at Disney -- namely Lion King. What was in there? Murder, tyranny, forced labor, starvation, betrayl, abandonment, conspiracy, abuse, and of course, manipulation. But how many parents still sit down with their child and watch it? Plenty.

Mytho wise, they need to sit down and figure it all out. What's what? Are there any elements in Sonic games they should implement? Are there any civilizations out there with anthros? They need to figure out their world. They seem to make it up as they go along.

Character wise, they need to plot it out as well. How are they going to portray Sonic? Shadow? Eggman? Tails? Who's going to be used in what game? Will this character fit the story? Will their personality conflict with the story? They need to be intelligent about this.

Finally, story-attitude, how dark is too dark? How light is too light? Will this be a silly or deep game? Will it try to take itself seriously or just be a total clown? Is the fanbase ready for a more serious game? Are they about to throw up if another bland, self mocking game is released?

They need to be intelligent about this.

Edited September 16, 2012 by WIttyUsername

[Remynaka]

I agree with the poster above me. Wonderful points I wish I could've said but I didn't. And to highlight a point I read in there, I too never thought sonic was mainly a KIDDY game. But then I look too deep on what could've been going on in the background in the Sega Genesis games. Mainly Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles. But that's going off topic. I want to say sonic NEEDS a story, but not because he never had one, which is false.. but because the story drives everything. If you don't want story in your games.. go play PONG and see how long you keep playing it. And now I'm repeating what others have said.......

[Kuzu]

We've beaten this horse to death, but since I'm a sadistic motherfucker, I'm gonna beat it some more.

I have just replayed Sonic 1, 2, 3AK again and was rather surprised by the lack of storyline in the games. It was all very simplistic and, to be honest, I prefer it that way.

Being simplistic doesn't mean there isn't a story, most of it is just told by the visual cues and most of the material collection. A narrative doesn't need a shitload of cutscenes and exposition to be considered a story; if the events are tied together and there is an ongoing them, then you have a story.

One of the main complaints with Sonic Generations was how terrible the story was (which I have just completed now fun-illy enough). But would you rather have the outdated moody story Adventure 2 had? Which let's be honest was a bit naff.

The reason people complain about Generations is because of the lack of story moreso than it being bad(even tho it is), and nobody is asking Darkness and Angst: The Series, but is it really too much to ask for a plot to be properly developed? I mean god.

So does Sonic really need a story?

Why bother with graphics? Why bother with gameplay? I mean it only makes the game better right?

[123654]

As I'm sure many others have said, there's a huge difference between having a convoluted, poorly written GRIMDARK story and not having any story at all.

The classic games actually had fairly detailed stories. They weren't the pinnacle of depth or anything, but they were more than just "Eggman is evil; stop him." Granted, a great deal of narrative content was lost on the localizations because the stories were mostly laid out in the Japanese instruction booklets. A quick look at one of those would reveal that the classic games' stories weren't any more sparse than the Adventure games; it's just that they didn't have dialogue and lengthy cutscenes.

To answer your question, no, the series doesn't "need" a story. No game does, objectively speaking. But I wouldn't be very interested in playing if there was no story to enjoy. Games are games first and foremost, but a decent story compels me to keep playing even after I've grown bored of the gameplay itself.

Furthermore, as others have said, just because the series is geared toward children doesn't mean the plot needs to be paper-thin. Children aren't idiots. Even Mario games benefit greatly from having interesting stories. Just look at the Paper Mario series.

What Sonic needs is a better team of writers. People mistakenly believe that because the writers kind of suck, the story needs to be abandoned altogether. But to me, that would just come off as incredibly lazy.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I see a black and white fallacy here regarding deep and complex plots vs. light and shallow ones, so for the sake of not repeating everything else people have said I'm going to simplify it this way:

Lighthearted plots =/= small plots =/= shallow =/= instantly good for the series;

Dark and Serious plots =/= complex plots =/= deep =/= instantly bad for the series.

Storytelling is like chemistry or cooking, you need to know what the hell you're doing or else it will either explode in your face or leave a horrible taste in your mouth.

A good representation of this for Sonic is the Megaman franchise, it started simple, became more complex and layered, even went darker and edgier before becoming lighter and softer. What sets it a apart is that not once has the series received massive hate for going down the same path Sonic did with its plots. I think it could learn some pointers here.

[Mangoaxe5]

Personally I've always seen video games as interactive movies. And even kids movies have a story of some sort. So yes I think Sonic games should have a story.

[Cortez]

I've always felt that Sonic was better suited to having a beautiful story rather than an epic story. The original game has Sonic trying to save his friends from being kidnapped and used as a power source for

Eggman's robots, it's so simple yet if this was ever used as the basis for a Sonic movie was ever made I can picture it being almost Wall-E esque.

Don't get me wrong I love the whole Death Egg saga and the plot to both Adventures and I think they suit Sonic perfectly as well but the only problem with those sort of plotlines is that the developers had no idea where to go from there, with the solution they came to being to make the story even bigger (to the point where it gets ridiculously over the top) and then doing away with most of the story altogether.

[Marcello]

We've beaten this horse to death, but since I'm a sadistic motherfucker, I'm gonna beat it some more.

Being simplistic doesn't mean there isn't a story, most of it is just told by the visual cues and most of the material collection. A narrative doesn't need a shitload of cutscenes and exposition to be considered a story; if the events are tied together and there is an ongoing them, then you have a story.

The reason people complain about Generations is because of the lack of story moreso than it being bad(even tho it is), and nobody is asking Darkness and Angst: The Series, but is it really too much to ask for a plot to be properly developed? I mean god.

Why bother with graphics? Why bother with gameplay? I mean it only makes the game better right?

wat.

Gameplay and story are on such a completly different level importance, that this rhetorical question just comes off as completely stupid.

You do realize we're talking about games?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think the point he's making is that just because something is or isn't broken doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make improvements. Why bother adding to the gameplay when things we're already good before, such as the addition of the Spin-dash? To make the gameplay more fun, of course.

By that relation, regarding the OP, why should Sonic bother to have a story when he seemed to have had no story before, or why bother adding a larger narrative when Sonic could do well with a relatively small one? To make the series more entertaining and give th player motivation to keep playing, of course.

It's kinda the main reason why, despite being a terrible game, many of us tortured ourselves just to finish Sonic 06 to the end. As terrible as the plot was we would have very likely put the controller down and never touched the game anymore way before we finished it if there wasn't a plot to it.

[Kuzu]

wat.

Gameplay and story are on such a completly different level importance, that this rhetorical question just comes off as completely stupid.

You do realize we're talking about games?

[WarioBone]

I saw this topic's name on the "New Topics" list the other day, put my hand to my forehead, and sighed.

[Bright Eyes]

Calm down buddies it was just a simple question!

[DarkLight]

Calm down buddies it was just a simple question!

A simple question that's been beaten to death on this forum.

[123654]

Bright Eyes just joined the forum, so I wouldn't really expect them to know which topics have been talked about extensively already.