Sonic Adventure 2 - over rated or under rated?

[Scar]

What I really don't get is the praise this game gets for its story.

It was good for its time, and is probably one of the best in the franchise. It is by no means a narrative masterpeice in the context of Games or other Narrative Media, but its good for a Sonic game.

[Nepenthe]

Its a neat idea. Call of Duty 4 used a similar system almost perfectly. Only difference is that SA2 had immediate dissonance, at least to me, with how contrasting each of the 3 gameplay styles are. One is a straight up race to the goal, the other is a slow trundle to the goal while bowling a ton of shit up, and the third is wandering around a large arena looking for 3 very small objects. If each of the characters had gameplay which were built from the same core principles, with slight variations, the result would have been a lot smoother.

The other issue is that Treasure Hunting and Mech shooting seemed to be much worse designed than the Speed stages. There was also the issue that I just found those two to be massively boring and uninteresting.

I'm not saying the idea is inherantly wrong, what I'm saying that the execution is extremely poor, especially for a game that is often touted to be the best 3D (and in some cases best overall) Sonic game of all time. I too would like a Sonic game that is more narrative driven with a strong interplay between narrative and gameplay, it just needs to be executed well for it to work. If I'm playing as Sonic and enjoying it, and then I have to play what is functionally an entirely different game, it pulls me out of the experience and dilutes any value the narrative had up until that point.

I understand where your dissatisfaction with the game is coming from; I merely approach it from a different angle in regards to objectifying why I still even like this game in the first place.

I think I've adequately explained how I feel about different methods of level progression so I won't harp on that anymore. But I've also long since been of the opinion that characters with different looks, personalities, and physical and mental competencies playing the exact same as one another with, at best, minor maneuvers attached is an archaic hold-over from the pallette-swapping days when developers needed a quick solution for multiplayer and life extension, and that better, more sensible, and more interesting ways should be found for alternate character inclusions as we move father into the genre and medium's lifespan.

Now genre roulette that introduces an entirely alternate type of game such as treasure hunting, where the goal is not to reach a physical destination but to satisfy the fulfillment of some quota, is also an archaic solution I admit, but something like Tails and Eggman's levels where the majority of gameplay goals actually align just fine with Sonic's and Shadow's, but are still different enough in and of themselves to add something unique to the experience and characters are things I don't find immediately offensive. At worst, things like these come down to an issue in execution like you said, and I think everyone in this topic that's knowledgeable enough can rip the Shooting stages to shreds all day long.

But I find the least imaginative answer to the above to be to scrap everything and stick within design tropes borne from the good ol' days. It's not inherently wrong to do this of course, but on the same token this is exactly how we get things like Colors: merely technically competent products that possess no risk, atmosphere, or soul; absolute filler that flies by once you're done with it and leaves no lasting impact. Boring shit, essentially. Now I'm probably rambling at this point, so at best, I'm just hoping people can bother seeing where I'm coming from with this.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Nepenthe

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What I really don't get is the praise this game gets for its story.

Because it handled darker elements without handling them so ridiculously compared to ShTH and Sonic 06 which tried to pull off the same thing? For the series it handled them very well, although there are some faults within things such as the the voice syncing.

I mean really, Phos, the game's been around for a decade and you've heard various opinions on why they praise the story for a long time. It's one thing to not agree with it, but how can you not get it? That's like a modern fan not getting why Classic Fans wanted a Sonic 4 in the first place, and you'd have to be pretty blind not to get something like that.

Edited March 27, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Ekaje]

Can anyone say it was underrated? I certainly can't. It was generally well received by critics and the majority of the fanbase and it sold like hotcakes back in it's day. To say it's underrated is like saying Call of Duty or Fifa is underrated.

It certainly wasn't underrated at the time of its release, in fact I'd say it got a bit too much praise than it deserved back then, but you can certainly make an argument that it's underrated now.

[Scar]

I think I've adequately explained how I feel about different methods of level progression so I won't harp on that anymore. But I've also long since been of the opinion that characters with different looks, personalities, and physical and mental competencies playing the exact same as one another with, at best, minor maneuvers attached is an archaic hold-over from the pallette-swapping days when developers needed a quick solution for multiplayer and life extension, and that better, more sensible, and more interesting ways should be found for alternate character inclusions as we move father into the genre and medium's lifespan.

Its the simplest solution for the time being. From it, more advanced and better differentiated gameplay can be developed. Its better to start with the same fundamentals and expand and branch out from there, than it is to simply start in different places for each character if you see what I mean. The result will be less jarring, more polished and more cohesive with the primary gameplay style.

Now genre roulette that introduces an entirely alternate type of game such as treasure hunting, where the goal is not to reach a physical destination but to satisfy the fulfillment of some quota, is also an archaic solution I admit, but something like Tails and Eggman's levels where the majority of gameplay goals actually align just fine with Sonic's and Shadow's, but are still different enough in and of themselves to add something unique to the experience and characters are things I don't find immediately offensive. At worst, things like these come down to an issue in execution like you said, and I think everyone in this topic that's knowledgeable enough can rip the Shooting stages to shreds all day long.

That's my point. SA2 has big bold ideas, but doesn't succeed in its implementation of them.

And yeah, I could tear Treasure Hunting and Mech Shooting to peices all day, but its been done to death.

But I find the least imaginative answer to the above to be to scrap everything and stick within design tropes borne from the good ol' days. It's not inherently wrong to do this of course, but on the same token this is exactly how we get things like Colors: merely technically competent products that possess no risk, atmosphere, or soul; absolute filler that flies by once you're done with it and leaves no lasting impact. Boring shit, essentially. Now I'm probably rambling at this point, so at best, I'm just hoping people can bother seeing where I'm coming from with this.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't consider Colours to be a sterile lifeless game. Certainly it lacks the passion and sheer effort that went into Unleashed, but no modern game has, before or since. Anyway, though you could do it the classic way and literally break the alternate characters down and make them modded Sonic's, but that concept can be used to a much greater degree. Fundamentals should remain constant, its how you develop a style that makes Sonic games what they are. Those fundamentals once done right can then be expanded and branched out upon. For instance one such fundamental must be "Gameplay must involve fast, fluid movement", and then work your way up from there. Fast, fluid movement is a constant, so the way each character feels and moves will be similar (tweaked variables and movesets aside) and won't be immediately jarring and whatnot. What the character then does with that fast, fluid movement depends on the character. Tails might do more puzzle-based platforming, Knuckles may still have some hunting/searching gameplay or maybe a few beat-em-up hints, Shadow may be more action orientated, Espio might be more stealth orientated and so on.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Scar

[Phos]

Because it handled darker elements without handling them so ridiculously compared to ShTH and Sonic 06 which tried to pull off the same thing? For the series it handled them very well, although there are some faults within things such as the the voice syncing.

I mean really, Phos, the game's been around for a decade and you've heard various opinions on why they praise the story for a long time. It's one thing to not agree with it, but how can you not get it? That's like a modern fan not getting why Classic Fans wanted a Sonic 4 in the first place, and you'd have to be pretty blind not to get something like that.

I've seen people say they like it but the things they say about it don't make sense.

For example, you say that SA 2 wasn't ridiculous, but all I can think of was how ridiculous it was. Events are stitched together in strange ways (An abandoned mine in the sewer?), Import plot points aren't clear and often seem to contradict one another (Shadow's flashbacks give no hint of amnesia until the last story where there's one line explaining that his memories were altered, up until that point Shadow seems to have a nonsensical motivation), or simply do contradict one another (Why does Eggman have a space shuttle when he can just teleport into orbit? Why is his space ship a space shuttle at all?)

By the way, Vash from Trigun has the same motivation as Shadow. Or rather, Trigun came first, so Shadow has the same motivation as Vash, right down to the flashbacks. I could point out more similarities, but then I'd be getting into spoiler territory methinks. Come to think of it, he almost ends up trying to do the same thing that Knives was trying to do, more or less. That's what I mean by nonsensical motivation, he has the same motive as one character but does the things of that character's antagonist. Well, they (poorly) copied Chrono Trigger for Sonic 06, so I guess this was just establishing the precedent.

[BarkingChaos]

I honestly so not see what the big deal about wither of the Adventure games are. Maybe it is because they do not have that nostalgia factor for me. I first played SA1 about 3 years ago and I only just bought SA2 last week. SA2's speed levels are very nice, I give it that. The mecha levels are also fairly good, despite the fact I struggle a bit with them. Apparently "looking behind me" is a concept I can't grasp in a Sonic game XD

The treasure levels...oh god. They make me want to smash my head into a wall. it took me, and I'm not joking, around 20 minutes to beat Knuckle's egyptian tomb stage and about 30 minutes for the haunted hill stage. Despite the treasure hunting stages in SA1 to be tedious, They at least had some flow and logic to the structure of them and the radar indicated any shard you came near. They weren't brilliant levels, but there was nothing overly wrong with them. I think the level layouts and radar in SA2 speak for themselves.

I apologize for not using the correct level names. I have not played it enough to know them yet

[Rusty Spy]

Events are stitched together in strange ways (An abandoned mine in the sewer?), Import plot points aren't clear and often seem to contradict one another (Shadow's flashbacks give no hint of amnesia until the last story where there's one line explaining that his memories were altered, up until that point Shadow seems to have a nonsensical motivation), or simply do contradict one another (Why does Eggman have a space shuttle when he can just teleport into orbit? Why is his space ship a space shuttle at all?)

[Wentos]

Personally, I think SA2 is overrated. Very much so.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great game. The truth is though, SA just seems better to me in its execution of what a Sonic game should be. The controls were tighter, the atmosphere was more Sonic, and I enjoyed what I was playing more often. Say what you will about Amy or Gamma, I enjoyed both of them to an extent. (Big can still die in a fire, though.) Amy always annoyed me because she was too slow, but somehow the flaws didn't seem as... noticeable as the ones in the Shooting and Hunting missions of SA2. The Shooting missions were like Gamma's stages, but more stiff. The Hunting stages were like the first game, but the levels were way too damn big, and the radar was nerfed. Even the Speed stages, fun as they were, didn't feel as responsive in control as they should've been. Overall, SA2 felt like it was trying to improve upon the highlights of SA, but only ended up making them worse. Yet everyone and their dog seems to claim that SA2 is their favorite 3D Sonic game, and while I love the game very much, I just don't completely see it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I've seen people say they like it but the things they say about it don't make sense.

Edited April 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[KingMan]

Story-wise, it's alright. It's nothing special, but at least it isn't as convoluted as Sonic Next Gen. The speed sections are nice, and as clunky as the shooting sections are, I can't help but smile whenever I pull a 30-plus combo. The treasure sections are the ones I have the most problems with. Why would the designers only allow the radar to sense one item instead of three like in the first Sonic Adventure game, especially considering that the treasure stages in SA2 are larger than the ones in SA1? Unless you know the location of the shards by heart, it's gonna take you at least 5 minutes just to find one.

At the end of the day, it's not a horrible game, but when put next to other games of its time - including The Legend Of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Paper Mario, Pokémon Gold/Silver/Crystal, Pikmin, Banjo-Tooie, Super Smash Bros. Melee, ICO, and Final Fantasy X - it hasn't aged too well.

Edited April 3, 2012 by KingMan

[Phos]

This editor is not working right so the quotes are FUBAR.

Most of those seem more like nitpicks. Knuckles and his stages have litterally no involvement in the story, so it doesn't matter at all. Shadow didn't get amnesia until AFTER his revival. The reveal that his memories were fabricated is more of a Wham Moment than anything, revealing that he was merely a proxy for a much bigger, hidden plan. His 'nonsensical' motivation only emphasises him as a pawn to a deranged man's revenge plot. The space shuttle I can agree with.

Some are nitpicks but I have a selection for every scene in the game. This game's story is always doing something that doesn't make sense. From the same scene of Knuckles emerging from the abandoned mine in the sewer you have Amy and Tails sitting in an alleyway for some reason and the scene ends with Tails leaving to find the president's limo for no reason, who, by the way, does should travel in a limo due to the limited agility and mobility of such vehicles, which is the same reason the actual president does not. If you're going to write them off as not impacting the game's story, guess what, that means the scene is just wasting your time.

I really don't see how that is a rebuttal to Shadow's motivation not making sense, we see Shadow having flashbacks to this girl and her talking about how she wants to go to the earth and how she wants to help people but Shadow is doing the exact opposite of that and the game offers no explanation for this dissonance until the reveal.

Any stranger than a theme park connecting to outer space, a la Twinkle Park SA1?

That was also kind of stupid but it wasn't set in what was meant to ostensibly be a more realistic world. Regardless, being less stupid than Sonic Adventure 1 is not a feather in your cap.

That wasn't a contradiction, it was a reveal: that Shadow was acting on someone else's wishes to destroy the earth and not his own.

Yes... I don't know why you think I said it wasn't a reveal. What I'm saying is that until that reveal we have no idea that Shadow lost any of his memory, as far as we know the flashbacks are simply that, Shadow thinking back on why he's doing what he's doing, but his flashbacks tell a story that should lead to him doing the exact opposite of what he's doing and we're not told why this is until the end and it's never really explained why Shadow thinks that's what he needs to do based on what he experienced. His personality (that seems like it needs quotes, but I digress) doesn't change after the reveal nor after remembering the end of Maria's message (which I remind you we would have just now found out he didn't remember), there's no sign of mind control.

And as for it being nonsensical, how in the hell is getting revenge for the death of someone you cared about a nonsensical motivation? That's sounds more like you belittling his motivation at an attempt at attacking his character, but I want to hear you out on this.

It's certainly nonsensical when you plan to commit genocide for the sake of such a peace loving individual. If you want to delve deeper, the sort of person who would wish to commit such genocide would likely be a sociopath but a sociopath wouldn't form such close bonds with other people.

That honestly sounds like a nitpick. You might as well question why Eggman had Zeta in SA1 in his base after he just ditched all the E-series except Beta and Gamma.

He actually didn't throw them out, he just dismantled them, and in some cases actually upgraded them, which is strange that you would punish robots by upgrading them.

For all I know, Eggman had it to get to the colony the first time since he obviously wouldn't have been able to reach space by teleporter the first time when he didn't know it's location. And as for your second question, do you honestly expect anyone to answer why the hell it's a space shuttle in the first place? There's really no answer other than, it's a space shuttle to get to the colony. How the hell is that an issue?

He'd already been there and back by the time they used the space shuttle. Why is it a space shuttle? How did he get it? Why would he steal a space shuttle when he could just build a space ship that's better.

There's a term for that, and it's called "brainwashing," dude. It can work in more ways than one, such as the very example you're talking about here for Shadow.

You brainwash someone to convince them of falsehood such that they'll do what you want, Gerald seemed to have just removed a single clause from Shadow's memory and that's apparently enough for him to be ready to kill everyone.

Granted, I haven't finished watching all of Trigun, but while there are similarities I do recall Vash being conscious enough to know what Knives wanted and sought to avoid at first while remember the woman who took care of him, as opposed to Shadow being unconscious and sought to get revenge for the woman he thought was wronged. Vash sought to avoid destruction before almost give in to causing it, while Shadow actively went straight for destruction before turning around to prevent any further damage he was about to create.

I know that, Shadow acts more like knives, but the point is that his motive is more like Vash's, that's about as contradictory as it gets.

Oh yeah, they also had you fight the Catapult from Battletech/Mechwarrior for some reason. Well, I guess Battletech got its start copying designs from Macross et al, so I guess it's only fitting.

[Rusty Spy]

From the same scene of Knuckles emerging from the abandoned mine in the sewer you have Amy and Tails sitting in an alleyway for some reason and the scene ends with Tails leaving to find the president's limo for no reason, who, by the way, does should travel in a limo due to the limited agility and mobility of such vehicles, which is the same reason the actual president does not. If you're going to write them off as not impacting the game's story, guess what, that means the scene is just wasting your time.

Tails was following the president to track Eggman's signal, cause they knew Eggman was threatening the pres to surrender to him after he blew up the moon. Had you actually paid attention to the cutscene you'd have caught that.

I really don't see how that is a rebuttal to Shadow's motivation not making sense, we see Shadow having flashbacks to this girl and her talking about how she wants to go to the earth and how she wants to help people but Shadow is doing the exact opposite of that and the game offers no explanation for this dissonance until the reveal.

Yes... I don't know why you think I said it wasn't a reveal. What I'm saying is that until that reveal we have no idea that Shadow lost any of his memory, as far as we know the flashbacks are simply that, Shadow thinking back on why he's doing what he's doing, but his flashbacks tell a story that should lead to him doing the exact opposite of what he's doing and we're not told why this is until the end and it's never really explained why Shadow thinks that's what he needs to do based on what he experienced. His personality (that seems like it needs quotes, but I digress) doesn't change after the reveal nor after remembering the end of Maria's message (which I remind you we would have just now found out he didn't remember), there's no sign of mind control.

That's what we call a plot twist. Also, he wasn't mind controlled. There's a difference between mind control and altered memories.

It's certainly nonsensical when you plan to commit genocide for the sake of such a peace loving individual. If you want to delve deeper, the sort of person who would wish to commit such genocide would likely be a sociopath but a sociopath wouldn't form such close bonds with other people.

That's why the person pulling the strings WAS a sociopath hell bent on genocide.

He'd already been there and back by the time they used the space shuttle. Why is it a space shuttle? How did he get it? Why would he steal a space shuttle when he could just build a space ship that's better.

It's a space shuttle because you don't just DRIVE to space, and he's a mechanical genius who's built entire space stations himself, he can build a simple space shuttle. At this point you're looking for things to nitpick about.

[batson]

I consider the story of SA2 to be above average for a platform game, but i still roll my eyes when people talk about it as if it were something truly amazing. But granted, the opinion that the story of SA2 was some kind of masterpiece seems to be held by less and less people as the years go by (But about 6 years ago or so, you heard it being called stuff like "one of the best stories in a video game ever" all the time).

Edited April 6, 2012 by batson

[Urban Flow]

I really don't like threads like these. They're no different from the "Is Sonic 06 underrated?" threads.

Many posts here will say SA2 is massively overrated because only 1/3rd of the game was actually good, the controls were bad, and was linear.

Then someone like me will come in here and say SA2 is their favorite game because although the Speed sections were the best parts, they actually like the Mech and Treasure hunting sections and found them fun to play. To me, while the controls were unrealistic they allowed for me to control Sonic and company exactly how I wanted, which is unlike every other Sonic game after it. There's also the emphasis on story, but hardly anyone dislikes SA2's story so I won't go there.

The reason why people call it the best 3D Sonic game is because every other Sonic game after it is downright terrible, except the very recent additions of Sonic Colors and Generations. If Colors and Generations non-existent, I would agree with those people who call it the best 3D Sonic game, and even then, Colors and Generations has still failed to give me the immersion and catharsis that SA2 did.

I'll answer the question though: Is SA2 overrated? It is now. But for a long time, it wasn't.

This right here.

[NintendoSoul]

I see far more people nowadays merely telling me that there's this large swathe of fans holding it up as literally the best game ever before proceeding to trash the game as either a mediocre or god-awful piece of shit, then I do actually seeing these people who are supposedly everywhere actually praising it as the best game ever. This topic is the prime indication of that.

Any discussion that inevitably mentions the descent of the franchise includes both Adventure games as part of that descent as well as lengthy lamenting on why they were actually never any good or fun to begin with (again, sentiments I find hogwash). But I've not honestly seen significant portions of people say SA2 is the greatest thing in a few years now, especially with Unleashed, Colors, and Generations in existence. I imagine the only other notable place you'd get a controlled consensus stating that is on the Sega Forums, which I'd consider a minority to, well, every other major Sonic community on the web.

So I'm wondering, considering how hated and/or brushed off SA2 actually appears to be in this topic, in other topics, on other Sonic forums, on other gaming forums, and in professional gaming outlets (hello GT and IGN), compared to how few people I see out there who like it so much they'd call it the best Sega's ever done, how long will it be until we can stop saying "SA2 is massively overrated" even when the opposite seems to be true right now, that- going only by where the majority of the comments seem to fall on the spectrum- this game is probably now underrated to some degree?

This is what I think, any talk of Sonic Adventure 2 comes down to hyperbole.

Edited April 7, 2012 by NintendoSoul

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That was also kind of stupid but it wasn't set in what was meant to ostensibly be a more realistic world. Regardless, being less stupid than Sonic Adventure 1 is not a feather in your cap.

I don't think the realism argument holds all that much water when said realism has stages like Pumpkin Hill and ghost in specific areas. If anything, it's more "they didn't care" than it is "it's stupid". This is a series that doesn't stick to realistic or fantasy elements, I suggest you keep that in mind for these games.

Yes... I don't know why you think I said it wasn't a reveal.

You called it a contradiction that didn't make sense for not hinting at his amnesia. I said it was a reveal that wasn't suppose to hint at it in the first place. It was to show how different Shadow was in contrast to how he is now.

What I'm saying is that until that reveal we have no idea that Shadow lost any of his memory, as far as we know the flashbacks are simply that, Shadow thinking back on why he's doing what he's doing, but his flashbacks tell a story that should lead to him doing the exact opposite of what he's doing and we're not told why this is until the end and it's never really explained why Shadow thinks that's what he needs to do based on what he experienced. His personality (that seems like it needs quotes, but I digress) doesn't change after the reveal nor after remembering the end of Maria's message (which I remind you we would have just now found out he didn't remember), there's no sign of mind control.

But here's the thing. Shadow didn't lose any of his memory ala amnesia. We weren't suppose to even know he had his memory manipulated (which isn't the same as mind control, mind you). His flashbacks tell a story of him interacting with a sister figure that he lost because she died on him. You remember the flashback when Shadow was running through a hall blaring the alarms and had someone looking for them before they escaped? They were running from someone Maria supposedly got mortally wounded.

Now if there's any criticism you want to give that, it was poorly explained (well in hindsight). But while you felt that his later flashback didn't make sense, I found that the first flashback with him and Maria running from someone, combined with his second flashback of him reminiscing of a peaceful period before that, then combined with Gerald's diary mentioning Maria among the list of those killed in the raid explained that Maria's death had a big part of their revenge.

Maybe you can't seem to piece them together in the same way I did, and if that's the case I can't really say much else.

It's certainly nonsensical when you plan to commit genocide for the sake of such a peace loving individual.

That's why they call it "revenge", and if anything it's mainly disproportionate retribution. The guy who gets arrested by the military and finds out the very person he cared for in the whole world was gone and he some how felt like a broken man? Honestly, it's not a huge leap of logic to think that he would try to get his revenge, and use Shadow as a medium to get it since there weren't a lot of ways for him to get it afterwards. Now combine that with said character's first experience with people on Earth being a military raid, and a first impression like that can easily put everyone else in a bad light.

If you want to delve deeper, the sort of person who would wish to commit such genocide would likely be a sociopath but a sociopath wouldn't form such close bonds with other people.

And you would know this how? Even Adolf Hitler spared certain Jews (such as Dr. Edward Bloch, if you're curious), and he's as evil as you can get in the real world. And even ruthless dictators like Stalin can still be afraid of their own mothers. You'd be surprised at what bonds a sociopath could form with other people, especially if said sociopath wanted to commit genocide because he lost the person he was close with before becoming so cold-blooded. Not that that makes them any better of a person, but just because someone is this way doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to how they are to other people.

He actually didn't throw them out, he just dismantled them, and in some cases actually upgraded them, which is strange that you would punish robots by upgrading them.

Really? Because the only ones I saw dismantled was Beta, and Zeta somehow ended up in one of his bases modified. Everyone else I saw got teleported away because they failed to find a frog and now they were all over the place in random locations with no explanation as to what they were doing there. Now if you want to go talking about plot points that don't make sense SA1 is filled with a lot more than SA2.

He'd already been there and back by the time they used the space shuttle.

You don't think he could've used the space shuttle first and then brought it back down in case he needed to use it again?

Why is it a space shuttle? How did he get it? Why would he steal a space shuttle when he could just build a space ship that's better.

I agree with why he couldn't have built a spaceship that's better. But as for why he stole it and how it got it, you might as well be asking how did he build a base in the Pyramids of Gaza and why would he want to use that as a base when he could build one in a more isolated location without hollowing out other structures.

You brainwash someone to convince them of falsehood such that they'll do what you want, Gerald seemed to have just removed a single clause from Shadow's memory and that's apparently enough for him to be ready to kill everyone.

Phos, this isn't black and white in fiction. There are loads of ways to go about brainwashing someone, and there are various different effects to it. It can be simple, or it can be more intricate, but brainwashing is basically to make someone adopt radically different beliefs using some degree of pressure, something of which you've already spelled out right here.

I know that, Shadow acts more like knives, but the point is that his motive is more like Vash's, that's about as contradictory as it gets.

I'm starting to think you have a very loose threshold for what counts as contradictory, dude. But help me out here and tell me how he acts like Knives with a motive like Vash? Because the way I'm looking at this, Shadow acts like a rough hard-ass who's not easy to get along with or would kill you if you got in his way, but he's willing to save people despite his attitude. I'm seeing more of a Jerk with a Heart of Gold than a contradiction, provided we're talking of Shadow post-SA2.

Oh yeah, they also had you fight the Catapult from Battletech/Mechwarrior for some reason. Well, I guess Battletech got its start copying designs from Macross et al, so I guess it's only fitting.

And this has what to do with what we're talking about?

Edited April 7, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The Weeb with No Name]

Sonic Adventure 2 was better than Ocarina of Time.

[lounge]

Sonic Adventure 2 was better than Ocarina of Time.

Sonic Adventure 2 was better than Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Edited April 7, 2012 by lounge

[The Weeb with No Name]

Oh hell no you didn't

[Scar]

Sonic Adventure 2 was better than Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

Trollface.jpg

No but seriously, it really wasn't.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic Adventure 2 was better than Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

I'm tempted to kick you in the nuts for that statement.

Nothing beats S3&K. NOTHING! >=O

[lounge]

Trollface.jpg

lol.

Well Jayhawker started it.

[Wentos]

I'm tempted to kick you in the nuts for that statement.

Nothing beats S3&K. NOTHING! >=O

C'mon, can't we all get along? Just because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you doesn't mean you need to flame them for it. Of course, that person could bother to explain why they think that game is better. For example, if I said Sonic CD was my favorite classic Sonic, I would explain the amazing music, great atmosphere, interesting gameplay mechanics, high replay value, and a rerelease that makes all of those things even better.

Edited April 7, 2012 by KatamariParadox

[lounge]

It's okay I was expecting that. What I should've added was S3&K doesn't have Live and Learn while SA2 does, thus making it inferior.