PETA has named 5 Orca Whales as Plantiffs in a lawsuit... .. Yes, they really are THAT stupid

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Whilst I'm digging back quite far in this thread now:

I mean there's only ever nothing but bashing of PETA's style and publicity choices, no-one seems to say anything about what they think of their actual views.

Did you stop to consider that people frequently refuse to air their views on this subject because they can't be bothered with the inevitable shitstorm that follows from doing so? Just look at this thread, even if it's been kept mostly civil. There's also not much point in presenting a point of view for criticism when you are unwilling to change it.

My views on this are very simple, although most people won't think very highly of them. (Turns out as I was writing this I realised that my views on the matter are not simple at all, because I'm suddenly posting a blimp again.)

It's important to point out that my father, as he grew up in the days where it was essential to learn a trade before you could realistically find work, trained to be a butcher, and was moderately successful for some time. Today, he continues to place a professional amount of care in any meat he prepares, and we nearly always enjoy a full roast meal on Sundays. You probably know where this is going now.

I strongly enjoy eating meat products precisely because they contain meat - I like their flavour, texture and versatility in preparation within meals. I generally dislike vegetarian-friendly meals for a variety of reasons including unusual textures I do not enjoy and off-putting taste, but this is hardly universal. It is, however, common for me to complement the vegetarian-friendly component with a meat product because that makes the overall meal more enjoyable for me. I just plain like eating meat. I also really like my cheese. The only thing in meals I like more than meat are sauces - for me any meal is enhanced with a complementing sauce. Naturally then, anything that would threaten to stop me enjoying my food is something that I would be more than willing to squash like an ant.

The family dogs very obviously love me, and you'd never see me eat dog meat - I place a strong, strict divider between animals as pets and animals as produce sources, as most people do - but other than that notable exception, I'm very aware that animals don't care about me, and I most certainly don't care about them. For produce, whatever produces the highest quality end product is preferable, which generally means not treating an animal like shit during its life. This, not a moral choice, is why I generally support animal welfare views.

Animal rights views can piss off.

Firstly: "animal". That's one hell of a generalisation for a biosphere as complex as Earth's. Each species has different capacities and qualities, and that should be acknowledged, not a blanket viewpoint that downplays more complex human qualities and treats less developed animal equivalents as equally valid; or indeed occassions where animal equivalents are superior, sometimes vastly so. To return to my above dog example: dogs are inherently social and have an understanding of social heirarchy and dominance - this is how they integrate into families so well. They are literally incapable of understanding the concept of "equality" - for a dog, everyone in a pack has a rank, and other than the very top and bottom, everyone is both superior and inferior to someone else. Every other animal we regularly encounter is that much less able to understand human social concepts; cats go wherever the best food is and have a limited understanding of dominance and that's as far as they go understanding us. Claiming to understand an animal's mindset is as ridiculous as claiming they understand us. We do not even see the world in the same way.

The second part is the part that makes me sound like a crazy man and is more speculative, but I'll discuss it anyway.

You may be familiar with the book "The BFG [big Friendly Giant]" by Roald Dahl. In it, the BFG yells at his human friend not to pick the flowers because he can't stand to hear them scream as they're yanked out of the ground and snapped in the middle, i.e. killed.

Plants are even more alien to us biologically than other animals, and this is exactly the main problem. Indeed, as we delve further into the realm of biology and better understand it, we better understand the situations where an animal indeed has traits, or understands a trait in the same way a human does; in ways thought unthinkable in the past. I speculate, and cannot prove, that eventually in some form we will discover that the above fictional extract isn't as fictional as people believed. We do not understand how a plant would feel pain yet, and it would not feel pain in the same way an animal does, via nerve cells, but that does not mean it can't feel damage and respond to it. Indeed, plants don't even have a brain yet they are capable of responding to stimuli regardless.

What I am driving at and hopefully everyone can see, is that whilst plants and animals are not the same, and individual plants and animals are not the same either and vary wildly between species, vegans and vegetarians still need to kill plants to sustain themselves. This apparent hypocrisy is never discussed, probably because it is so difficult to empathise with a plant, but it is there. You are still killing something to sustain yourself - you're just killing something else instead and I see no difference whatsoever between the two.

[Mollfie]

Okay that's a big post!

When you eat meat you always kill an animal. When you eat plants you do not always kill that plant. Fruits are supposed to be consumed because that's how seeds are spread so that rules those out of the argument (and there are people who eat only fruits because of that view).

Is there really no difference between animal life and plant life? None at all? If so then there is also no difference between animals, including us. There is no difference between farm animals and household pets. If you believe that there is no difference between eating animals and plants then you have to come to the conclusion that it's also perfectly find to eat domestic animals such as pet cats and dogs. Something that most people are appalled by. What about the difference between humans and animals? If there is no difference between animals and plants then what about us? If you are subscribing to that idea then it's okay to eat other people too, right? Because there's no difference?

I know that we've made some scientific strides in discovering how plants can process things but at the end of the day we just don't know all that much right now. Maybe one day we will, but then we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. We do know a lot about animals though, about their intelligence, emotions and how they process pain.

There are many, many reasons why people choose to not consume animals or animal products and some can be harder to understand that others. At the end of the day it's a personal thing and I try hard not to push my opinion on people because I hate when people push theirs on me. Personally, I would rather do something than nothing. For me that means not eating animals. For my family that means eating decent, free-range meat, eggs from their own chickens and good quality milk. It might not be what I would do but I'm still supportive of their decision because at least they are trying.

Some people here have got kind of hostile and I find that upsetting because I want to have a mature conversation but it never seems to happen here and that's so disappointing.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Mollfie

[JezMM]

As well as what Mollfie said, just as an extra note, dogs are by no means a suitable example for considering some animals to be "not meat" and some to be "for meat", since, just for example, pigs are just as, if not more intelligent and happy to live with humans as dogs are, with just as much personality.

Plus the entire "plants are being killed too!" is a completely non-arguement. Sure I kill plants, that may or may not feel pain. Therefore it's okay to eat animals too, that I KNOW are intelligent and feel pain?

A lot of meat-eaters seem to get this impression that vegetarians and vegans consider themselves high and mighty, and somehow "perfect" in a society filled with dirty, mean-spirited meat-eaters. But that's not what it's about. It's about making what difference you can. I would LOVE to be vegan, but I love the taste of creamy food way too much. I can completely sympathise with "but meat is yummy Q_Q" train of thought. I was there once. I was that same guy only 2-3 years ago, and never imagined myself ever being able to go vegetarian, but here I am.

Yes I'm not perfect, the dairy industry is just as horrible as the meat industry, but it's about whatever little you can do. I now only buy Pilgrim's Choice brand cheese since they don't overmilk, pump chemicals into cows, or sell their male calves for beef or (even worse) veal. I only buy free range eggs but that doesn't change the fact that they still probably throw male chicks into the grinders on a daily basis.

All I ask of meat-eaters is that they try and observe the occasional meat-free day or two. Only buy good quality meat that hasn't been speedgrown or kept and killed inhumanely. Just do what little you can. But if someone is too cheap to make even a small sacrifice like that or just do not empathise with animals' pain whatsoever... Well, frankly I'd consider them either unlikeably selfish or that they have an honestly quite disturbing lack of emotional intelligence. o_o

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Saw red reading that post, actually read it properly, calmed down, redid this post. It's still pretty terse.

The unspoken implication that my view is ignorant and less enlightened than yours was obvious, and I don't take kindly to that. Anyway:

When you eat meat you always kill an animal. When you eat plants you do not always kill that plant. Fruits are supposed to be consumed because that's how seeds are spread so that rules those out of the argument (and there are people who eat only fruits because of that view).

This is perfectly fine actually, but I doubt they're going to get a balanced diet out of that. Didn't we have a topic recently about how any mono-diet is unhealthy? It's been well established that a standard vegan diet is capable of meeting all your dietary needs, so there's no need to go into that.

Is there really no difference between animal life and plant life? None at all?

This is not what I said at all. In fact I went to great pains to argue the exact opposite. Consequently I am irritated to see this response. (Massive understatement.)

I argued that there is no difference between killing a plant and an animal, and I'm sticking to that.

Incidentally this renders this entire paragraph moot, so...

There are many, many reasons why people choose to not consume animals or animal products and some can be harder to understand that others.

This works the other way for people who want to eat meat as well; it would be nice to see this acknowledged.

Indeed though, for many of us this is a very simple topic with a very obvious answer and that people go to such great lengths to challenge is often bemusing and frustrating. This is probably the source of the hostility you're noticing.

EDIT: Thread moves fast lulz.

All I ask of meat-eaters is that they try and observe the occasional meat-free day or two.

This is absolutely too much to ask. I will eat as I like on any given day and it is very unreasonable to request otherwise.

Well, frankly I'd consider them either unlikeably selfish or that they have an honestly quite disturbing lack of emotional intelligence. o_o

Your thinly veiled condescending attitude is noted, as above.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Velotix von Skruviktorrius

[Tornado]

Is there really no difference between animal life and plant life? None at all? If so then there is also no difference between animals, including us. There is no difference between farm animals and household pets. If you believe that there is no difference between eating animals and plants then you have to come to the conclusion that it's also perfectly find to eat domestic animals such as pet cats and dogs. Something that most people are appalled by. What about the difference between humans and animals? If there is no difference between animals and plants then what about us? If you are subscribing to that idea then it's okay to eat other people too, right? Because there's no difference?

You say you don't understand why this argument always always always becomes heated, and one of your responses in that post is such a blatant and ridiculous strawman?

As for the other reason arguments like this always become heated:

A lot of meat-eaters seem to get this impression that vegetarians and vegans consider themselves high and mighty, and somehow "perfect" in a society filled with dirty, mean-spirited meat-eaters. But that's not what it's about.

I'm reminded of how the Green movement likes to position itself the same way, but the overwhelming majority of the people you actually hear preaching about it (and yes, preaching is the proper term to use) are the exact type of people that you want to punch in the face so hard that their face ceases to exist on this plane of reality.

And then you turn around and post this:

Well, frankly I'd consider them either unlikeably selfish or that they have an honestly quite disturbing lack of emotional intelligence.

Which, while not nearly as extreme, is basically the same sentiment that you said you weren't expressing.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Gilda

[Mollfie]

The unspoken implication that my view is ignorant and less enlightened than yours was obvious, and I don't take kindly to that.

I actually found this incredibly hurtful as I generally go out of my way to not upset people. I had no intention of coming across in the way you've perceived. I was actually just raising points in the hope of getting some sort of discussion out of this. I don't even necessarily believe those points!

Edited February 10, 2012 by Mollfie

[JezMM]

This is absolutely too much to ask. I will eat as I like on any given day and it is very unreasonable to request otherwise.

Your thinly veiled condescending attitude is noted, as above.

Thinly vieled nothing. I'm not gonna lie to protect people's feelings.

There is a point in all ethics where stuff crosses into just pure, heartfelt belief. I believe animals are creatures who, while they may be far more primitive versions of our own, are just as capable of feeling pain, fear and emotion. If I saw someone stabbing an animal and it screaming in pain, I see it in the exact same way I would see someone stabbing a human and that person screaming in pain and begging them to stop. If that means nothing to you then I think you're a horrible person. Sorry.

I'm reminded of how the Green movement likes to position itself the same way, but the overwhelming majority of the people you actually hear preaching about it (and yes, preaching is the proper term to use) are the exact type of people that you want to punch in the face so hard that their face ceases to exist on this plane of reality.

I judge people individually, not as groups. I also like to avoid violent analogies, for what that's worth.

If any of my criticised animal suffering-indifferent meat-eaters here are bothered by my opinion of them then you can just consider me a crazy hippie if that makes you feel better, you have my permission.

EDIT: I feel I may have crossed a line with this post. I'd like to clarify that I'm not so one-track minded that I'd consider anyone who is indifferent to animal welfare a horrible person overall. If there was someone who was an amazing screenplay writer, donated $100 a month to charity and still found the time to personally clean my windows for me once a week, I would not consider them a horrible person just because they had no qualms with eating speedgrown battery chickens at KFC. But that aspect of their character and opinion I would personally find horrible and downright weird.

Edited February 10, 2012 by JezMM

[Tornado]

So, and I ask this with the utmost sincerity.

How is this:

A lot of meat-eaters seem to get this impression that vegetarians and vegans consider themselves high and mighty, and somehow "perfect" in a society filled with dirty, mean-spirited meat-eaters. But that's not what it's about. It's about making what difference you can.

Any different from this:

If I saw someone stabbing an animal and it screaming in pain, I see it in the exact same way I would see someone stabbing a human and that person screaming in pain and begging them to stop. If that means nothing to you then I think you're a horrible person. Sorry.

Or, at the very least, different enough that the views you say shouldn't be held aren't actually the valid ones to have?

Because all that reads to me is "vegetarians aren't all pretentious and condescending, but the reasons people tend to think that they are are totally accurate."

Edit:

And since you made it a point to bring it up despite how meaningless it is to the topic proper, I'll make it a point to respond:

I also like to avoid violent analogies, for what that's worth.

Nothing. That's how I talk. That's how I think. That's how I attempt to joke around to keep a topic from getting too serious and heated.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Gilda

[JezMM]

So, and I ask this with the utmost sincerity.

How is this:

Any different from this:

Or, at the very least, different enough that the views you say shouldn't be held aren't actually the valid ones to have?

Because all that reads to me is "vegetarians aren't all pretentious and condescending, but the reasons people tend to think that they are are totally accurate."

I just do not understand how people cannot care at all. I don't think people are horrible for eating meat. I think people are horrible for thinking 100% that they have every right to be as cruel to animals as they see fit.

When I say "it's not much to ask to occasionally not eat meat". Or EVEN "it's not much to ask to only buy good, WELL-KEPT meat", and people say "yes it is". Sorry that just... makes me blue screen. I literally CANNOT understand how a fellow human can be that unsympathetic towards another living creature. I just can't.

[Legendary Emerald]

I literally CANNOT understand how a fellow human can be that unsympathetic towards another living creature. I just can't.

What good does sympathy do? Why should I want to care about the pain of the pig, when its meat fills me up so well?

We ignore the suffering of other creatures and humans every day. If not, we would surely go insane. There is no way to stop suffering. To think that there could be is delusional.

Suffering should be kept to a minimum, yes. But as human creatures with powerful self interests, we will decide what amount should be allowed. Because we can. Because we are selfish creatures. Just like every other species.

That is how we have evolved. That is the way of the human race. And there is no escaping it, no matter how many tofu patties one eats.

Human beings are not above nature. And nature is above all else.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Legendary Emerald

[Indigo Rush]

Guys, stop whaleing on each other and get back on topic!

(yes, I posted simply to make a pun)

But I do have to say that I love me some meat. It tastes good, it digests well, and it gives me nourishment throughout the day. I don't believe we should be cruel to animals, but I also don't believe we should avoid eating meat.

Because darn it, I can't make spaghetti and meatballs without any meat!

[Stacy]

I remember when I was small asking my mum everytime we had meat was it just to make sure that was dead, I wear leather, I like my steak, I like my veg too, I sometimes like eggs, I like milk, cheese. If makes me a monster to you I don't care, I that makes me a terrible person than thats very closed minded why to think. I respect peoples choices but if they can't recept mine then clearly ticks me off.

I can't understand people who follow Religion much, but I don't think their a terrible person.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Did you stop to consider that people frequently refuse to air their views on this subject because they can't be bothered with the inevitable shitstorm that follows from doing so?

Point thoroughly proven.

Well, at least now we're clear. For the record, your attitude is perfectly understandable, I just don't agree with it. Although it seems I was misunderstanding at least one individual and for that I apologise.

I'm not surprised by the reaction anyway, this is why I don't talk about it much, however the insistence on actually discussing the issue for a change compelled me to say something. Disregarding the mudslinging for the moment, two legitimate points have been raised in the midst of all this.

Attachment

It has been mentioned that pigs are actually pretty smart and empathetic as most people seem to like to forget. But that's just it. Why do they like to forget?

Indeed, for everything I've said so far, if indeed I had not been raised in a culture that considers them pets and been raised in a dog-loving family, I would probably also consider them legitimate sources of food. Indeed many cultures do just this. Of course I couldn't possibly do this because if I went anywhere near it I'd be imagining every pet dog in the family, past and present.

My Dad's family in particular continue to enjoy on occasion rarer choices of meat such as pheasant, duck and goose, and on such occasions they've gotten me to try a few. Now whilst I actually somewhat liked duck, no matter what I did I couldn't get the image of ducks swimming in a pond out of my head, and I found I couldn't enjoy it. Most people in my generation, let alone me and my sister, also consider the idea of eating rabbits abhorrent, which my grandparents find confusing. It's not a stretch to imagine many people having similar experiences with battery chickens. Indeed I actually get pretty squeamish at first whenever I prepare meat myself before I adjust to the feel of it as handling a raw carcass is just plain odd, as is seeing a pig being carved up from scratch. Dead pig leg feels wierd.

None of this applies to eating plants, ever. As I said already, it's extremely difficult to empathise with a plant as they're so far removed from our empathic cues as to be alien entities. So then, do we just make exceptions for eating their meat with things we care about on a personal level? Seems I certainly do. In fact that seems to be the primary deterrant of cannibalism.

Leads nicely onto the next point.

Empathy

It is completely reasonable to feel sorry for an animal if it appears to be in pain.

Whether it's silly or not to do so depends on whether the animal really is feeling pain, and this is the basis for well thought-out animal welfare - not treating them like people, but treating them like what they actually are. I insist upon, and find it reasonable to, treat species individually, and I find that discussing "animal rights" as a generalised issue dilutes the complexity of the situation.

This is difficult for anyone to wrap their minds around because it requires understanding a thoroughly inhuman mindset in each case. Most people tend to default to assuming an animal's reaction directly corresponds to a human equivalent, or in lieu of that a recognised animal equivalent. The difference between a cat wagging their tail and a dog wagging their tail for example.

Also to finish this post, the timing on this is unbelievable.

I have been informed by my parents that we're trying out venison burgers for a change tonight. Before you ask, I've never seen a real deer in my life.

ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: MEAT-EATING CUNT 3000

[Solkia]

nevermind

Edited February 10, 2012 by Solkia

[Indigo Rush]

I agree with those points, Velotix. I don't think I could ever bring myself to eat dog meat unless the situation was dire. I've owned a couple dogs in my life and I wouldn't be able to get over it. But when you think about it, dogs and pigs are equally intelligent.

And pigs roll around in mud for goodness sake. You'd think the pig would be a less attractive meal, y'know?

Oh, and in regards to eating Bambi, I've put venison in my meat sauce before. It was phenomenal. You're in for a tasty treat!

...*ahem*

So yeah, Whale plaintiffs. Pretty silly, huh? Makes PETA look like a bunch of blubbering idiots.

[Carbo]

You guys disgust me.

[King Frosty]

You guys disgust me.

But.

But.

I just got here. ;w;

But after what Peta did with Nintendo, I stopped taking them seriously. So yeah, whatever happens. Good Luck Peta. :l

[Agent York]

I actually avoided posting in this thread originally since I thought the topic discussion was going to get off-topic and I was just going to echo, "PETA are attention whores who pull stunts for it."

Truthfully I don't think it's anyone's right to preach to be vegetarian or a meat-lover. It's all personal and all that, and there's arguments for both sides that could go back and forth for ages. Animal cruelty is not okay, but don't act like it isn't in our instinct to eat meat and as humans provide the easiest way to obtain it. Society is founded on making our lives stream-lined to get what we need and want more. I eat chicken, but I'm not going to suddenly have disregard for a chicken if I see it drowning in a lake, for example. Hell, I'd probably be the first to go diving in to save it. I'm not even kidding, it's maybe warped logic but I like to eat chicken but I wouldn't want to see one suffer and if it's within my power I would save it.

I love whales, but I seriously doubt Sea World is doing some horrible things to the creatures. I've been to sea world and the whales seem to like humans enough, which I doubt they would be if they were given a reason to despise humans. I've never seen any injured or mistreated before either.

This reminds me a story of what a friend of mine's father went through. He's Japanese and used to live in Japan with his parents. His dad used to be a fisher, and one day while at sea the boat had some engine troubles. His dad went under to see what was the problem and told them not to start up the engines until he was up. He was working on the underside of the boat when some idiot above started the engine. The suction of the engine's propellers started to suck him in and he was going to be sucked in and diced to death, but a dolphin came and pushed him out of the way and in turn was sliced up in the process. His dad shortly quit fishing and has since to this day donated to fundraisers to save dolphins and they've become his favorite animal, and he thanks that dolphin for saving his life. I have no idea why I shared that story but I was thinking about it.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Agent York

[JezMM]

What good does sympathy do? Why should I want to care about the pain of the pig, when its meat fills me up so well?

Because some things are more important than selfish satisfaction. But that varies from person to person.

We ignore the suffering of other creatures and humans every day. If not, we would surely go insane. There is no way to stop suffering. To think that there could be is delusional.

I agree, hence my stance on "doing what you can". Avoiding mass-produced, inhumane meat, for example.

Suffering should be kept to a minimum, yes. But as human creatures with powerful self interests, we will decide what amount should be allowed. Because we can. Because we are selfish creatures. Just like every other species.

So some people say we are better than animals, some say we're allowed to be selfish because animals are? We're more intelligent than that. We have the ability to empathise, but it's more convenient to choose not to.

That is how we have evolved. That is the way of the human race. And there is no escaping it, no matter how many tofu patties one eats.

This would be valid, but there is no past tense with evolution - it's an ongoing thing. Certainly, we had to eat meat and scavenge to survive in the early days, but the human, today and now, isn't the end of the line. It is what we're comfortable with and enjoy certainly, and I'm not delusional, that is not something an entire species just breaks out of. But the point is we are omnivores, and eating meat is not necessary. That is not me saying "you should all stop eating meat right now", that is just me saying "eating meat is not necessary" - which is a fact. Take it as you will.

Because darn it, I can't make spaghetti and meatballs without any meat!

I... would post a picture of one of the numerous brands of meat-free meatballs avaliable (or even a recipe on how to make your own meat substitute) but I imagine I'd be ridiculed for it by people who have never even tried it. Or have tried a couple of brands and judge all fake meat by it.

On a serious note from that though, I'm very excited about the research into lab grown meat - literally creating real meat from the DNA of the animal. It enters the world as meat and leaves the world as meat. Real meat, but completely vegetarian - hell, vegan even. As you may have gathered I am a vegetarian for the ethics. I loved meat. So this'd really excite me (and would perhaps stop people making the frequent derogatory jokes that imply all vegetarians eat are beanburgers and tofu).

I remember when I was small asking my mum everytime we had meat was it just to make sure that was dead, I wear leather, I like my steak, I like my veg too, I sometimes like eggs, I like milk, cheese. If makes me a monster to you I don't care, I that makes me a terrible person than thats very closed minded why to think. I respect peoples choices but if they can't recept mine then clearly ticks me off.

Please listen. I do not think anyone is horrible for simply eating meat. What I think is horrible is just the complete lack of empathy for another living creature. It's only the meat-eaters that don't care how much an animal suffers as long as they get a tasty meal at the end of it, that I cannot bring myself to respect.

Sometimes I am selfish and will not do the research. I do not go into every resturant and check they use free range eggs before ordering. Of course most places don't - free range is a good selling point, they'd advertise it if they did. But I sure as hell don't feel good about it.

None of this applies to eating plants, ever. As I said already, it's extremely difficult to empathise with a plant as they're so far removed from our empathic cues as to be alien entities. So then, do we just make exceptions for eating their meat with things we care about on a personal level? Seems I certainly do. In fact that seems to be the primary deterrant of cannibalism.

It all depends on knowledge really. A lot of people are pescatarians because for a long time research seemed to suggest that fish do not feel pain in the same, actual upsetting way that we do. Research has since suggested they do so pescatarianism isn't quite as common or respected these days as it used to be. Fact is, there really is no widespread research to suggest vegetables feel pain.

Even if it was, arguing against a vegetarian with that thought is a really fruitless (no pun intended) excercise because all the arguement really says is. "Well sure you say I do this bad thing, but look you do a bad thing too! So... my bad thing is okay!" Y'know?

It is completely reasonable to feel sorry for an animal if it appears to be in pain.

Whether it's silly or not to do so depends on whether the animal really is feeling pain, and this is the basis for well thought-out animal welfare - not treating them like people, but treating them like what they actually are. I insist upon, and find it reasonable to, treat species individually, and I find that discussing "animal rights" as a generalised issue dilutes the complexity of the situation.

This is difficult for anyone to wrap their minds around because it requires understanding a thoroughly inhuman mindset in each case. Most people tend to default to assuming an animal's reaction directly corresponds to a human equivalent, or in lieu of that a recognised animal equivalent. The difference between a cat wagging their tail and a dog wagging their tail for example.

Well sure, but we know enough about animals and share enough smilarities with mammals - at the very least - to make an educated guess. Gee that cow sure is thrashing around and making noises and bleeding everywhere a lot since you misplaced killing it with that bolt gun. Think it's in pain? Boy that chicken sure is looking very still and pensive sitting in that cage barely bigger than itself, never moving and getting sores all over it's feet from the harsh texture of the cage bars beneath it. Think it's unhappy?

I guess animals are too different from us, we'll never know!

...Sorry for the sarcasm again, but it simply got my point across quicker than answering in boring-vision.

[Indigo Rush]

I... would post a picture of one of the numerous brands of meat-free meatballs avaliable (or even a recipe on how to make your own meat substitute) but I imagine I'd be ridiculed for it by people who have never even tried it. Or have tried a couple of brands and judge all fake meat by it.

Then it isn't a real meatball.

[JezMM]

Then it isn't a real meatball.

But but...

How can you not be salivating at the deliciousness of a plate full of balls?

In actuality you only get four meatballs. It's an absoloutely rubbish ready-meal.

Edited February 10, 2012 by JezMM

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

I LOLed iRL at Jez's second-to-last post. :3 This thread is too fast! ;_;

Interesting information regarding fish, because my Dad happens to be a very avid fisherman, to the point that he takes a yearly holiday to Ireland for the sole purpose of fishing out there. I'm sure he'd have a lot to say about that but I'm no expert there.

I... would post a picture of one of the numerous brands of meat-free meatballs avaliable (or even a recipe on how to make your own meat substitute) but I imagine I'd be ridiculed for it by people who have never even tried it. Or have tried a couple of brands and judge all fake meat by it.

Then it isn't a real meatball.

Hold on now.

I think it's been established that, whilst protective of our diets, ultimately we're a bunch of people who like our good food and aren't douchebags. However there's an odd flipside to this that hasn't been mentioned yet: my Mum throws up every time she eats Quorn mince, roughly five hours after the meal, without fail. The rest of us are absolutely fine. This of course does not invalidate every brand of meat substitute, but it raises an important issue with using a substitute at all - it introduces new risks that weren't present before, and people who are fine with the original product are intolerant of the substitute.

Which is a shame because Quorn lasagnes were very nice, in fact we were beginning to wonder if we preferred them to beef lasagne - then we worked out what was going on with Mum and that put an end to this.

It's totally possible for a vegetarian product to be superior to meat, and in that case there's no problem, but as Indigo pointed out, it's definitely not the same culinary experience.

On a serious note from that though, I'm very excited about the research into lab grown meat - literally creating real meat from the DNA of the animal.

News to me. Source?

Because if that becomes commercially viable then suddenly this entire argument is moot because you can get the best product without harming an animal at all. Fine by me.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Velotix von Skruviktorrius

[JezMM]

I think it's been established that, whilst protective of our diets, ultimately we're a bunch of people who like our good food and aren't douchebags. However there's an odd flipside to this that hasn't been mentioned yet: my Mum throws up every time she eats Quorn mince, roughly five hours after the meal, without fail. The rest of us are absolutely fine. This of course does not invalidate every brand of meat substitute, but it raises an important issue with using a substitute at all - it introduces new risks that weren't present before, and people who are fine with the original product are intolerant of the substitute.

Which is a shame because Quorn lasagnes were very nice, in fact we were beginning to wonder if we preferred them to beef lasagne - then we worked out what was going on with Mum and that put an end to this.

It's totally possible for a vegetarian product to be superior to meat, and in that case there's no problem, but as Indigo pointed out, it's definitely not the same culinary experience.

Indeed, my brother in fact, and a friend of another family member, get gravely ill every time they eat Quorn. Thankfully there are of course a WIDE variety of things meat-free substitutes can be made from. Quorn in fact is not vegan - as well as fungus they use eggs to bind the product together and produce the meaty texture. But many other products can use soya protien alone, and are completely vegan, and can be especially good at reproducing red meat products (such as burgers and sausages - Linda McCartney sausages are particularly good).

News to me. Source?

Because if that becomes commercially viable then suddenly this entire argument is moot because you can get the best product without harming an animal at all. Fine by me.

Here's the wikipedia article for a starting point that covers a lot of the details: http://en.wikipedia....i/In_vitro_meat

While I'm sure you'd get a lot of people who say "it's not as good as the real thing!" on prinicple, I agree it would be a huge step forward in reducing the amount of animal suffering. A more valid point for meat-eater's preference is they are yet to reproduce animal bones, so fans of ribs or fried chicken drumsticks will have to wait a bit.

Edited February 10, 2012 by JezMM

[Amomynous]

I really don't think the way zoos usually treat their animals is right at all, I also think eating meat in the name of "I enjoy it" rather than "I would die otherwise." is a just ridiculous...

But really, PETA seem to automatically go for the least effective strategies and least convincing arguments POSSIBLE, they make a mockery of themselves by doing stupid stuff like this, they also dig themselves really low with using sexual objectification and fat shaming, they just plain play dirty.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Mysterics

[Stacy]

PETA try to even encourage Dogs and Cats owners to make their pets not to eat meat, even though it makes the animals very ill and could even kill them, so yeah so much for Animal rights right there.