Was Generations Rushed?

[goku262002]

Or them thinking it won't work/wasn't as good of an idea as they thought. Time restraints are definitely not the only reason things are cut.

Wouldn't they have been planned out before voice work was done? it just seems strange that they would hire somebody to do voice work, don't use it, then credit them for the unused voice work. Generations isn't a mess like how 2006 was but it does show that there was some rushing to make deadline and cutting corners to meet expectations.

But its 5 against 1 so I'm beat. i give i can't fight back when i have no support...

[Blue Blood]

Well, the story is a mess...

The final boss is a mess...

The story isn't a mess. It's just incredibly lacklustre and bare-bones.

The final boss isn't a mess either. It's just bad, and lacking in clarity.

Wouldn't they have been planned out before voice work was done? it just seems strange that they would hire somebody to do voice work, don't use it, then credit them for the unused voice work. Generations isn't a mess like how 2006 was but it does show that there was some rushing to make deadline and cutting corners to meet expectations.

But its 5 against 1 so I'm beat. i give i can't fight back when i have no support...

For Sonic games at least, voice work is done very early on. I remember there was an interview around for Unleashed that mentioned exactly how early on they were recorded. I wonder if I can find it. They were done in 2007 IIRC. It's very likely that things can change. If Kyle Heberts name slipped into the credits then it was probably a simple oversight.

EDIT: I'm sure it was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDex3_DyY2s, the page at 50seconds.

EDIT2: Got it! Unleashed's English voices were recorded in Decemeber 2007, and the Japanese ones likely before then. That's getting on for a year before it was released, and is is more than enough time for things to change. Scan in spoiler.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Blue Blood

[Ferno]

Well, I guess the title should just be changed to, "Were things that would've been cool cut from Generations to meet deadlines?"

Then Hogfather would be right. >w>

inb4 "But all games do that though, there- I nuked your argument."

...

now this post is meaningless.......dangit.

[Space☆Tomoki]

Well, I guess the title should just be changed to, "Were things that would've been cool cut from Generations to meet deadlines?"

Then Hogfather would be right. >w>

inb4 "But all games do that though, there- I nuked your argument."

...

now this post is meaningless.......dangit.

Inorite? Seriously though, it makes me all the more curious as to what was originally planned for SG's plot. It seems like there was going to be a lot more than what we got in the final product.

The story isn't a mess. It's just incredibly lacklustre and bare-bones.

The final boss isn't a mess either. It's just bad, and lacking in clarity.

For Sonic games at least, voice work is done very early on. I remember there was an interview around for Unleashed that mentioned exactly how early on they were recorded. I wonder if I can find it. They were done in 2007 IIRC. It's very likely that things can change. If Kyle Heberts name slipped into the credits then it was probably a simple oversight.

EDIT: I'm sure it was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDex3_DyY2s, the page at 50seconds.

EDIT2: Got it! Unleashed's English voices were recorded in Decemeber 2007, and the Japanese ones likely before then. That's getting on for a year before it was released, and is is more than enough time for things to change. Scan in spoiler.

Weren't Knuckles and Shadow originally intended to be in Unleashed, but then they were cut out at some point?

Edited November 15, 2011 by Spider-Man Noir

[Ferno]

Weren't Knuckles and Shadow originally intended to be in Unleashed, but then they were cut out at some point?

That was just a Sega rep being herp-derp during a Gamespot exclusive E3 playthrough / footage showing, if I remember correctly. He said that we'd see them, but I dunno if he knew for sure.

Edited November 15, 2011 by 'Ferno

[ArtFenix]

The story isn't a mess. It's just incredibly lacklustre and bare-bones.

It is lacking and bare-bones to the point it's a mess. Almost nothing is explained as to why Sonic is here and there, when and how Classic Tails appeared, why Sonic fights bosses that don't look like the originals etc, etc, etc. It IS a mess. Much more than 06. I thought 06 had a lot of plot holes, but this..

The final boss isn't a mess either. It's just bad, and lacking in clarity.

OK, it's just awful.

[Space☆Tomoki]

That was just a Sega rep being herp-derp during a Gamespot exclusive E3 playthrough / footage showing, if I remember correctly. He said that we'd see them, but I dunno if he knew for sure.

Ah, okay then. I wasn't sure...

[Blue Blood]

It is lacking and bare-bones to the point it's a mess. Almost nothing is explained as to why Sonic is here and there, when and how Classic Tails appeared, why Sonic fights bosses that don't look like the originals etc, etc, etc. It IS a mess. Much more than 06. I thought 06 had a lot of plot holes, but this...

Classic Tails appears out of nowhere I'll give you that, but everything else is fine. Why is Sonic there? Because the Time Eater is destroying time and space, and this White World is all that remains. Bosses not looking like the originals is exactly the same as the stages not looking like the originals- creative license, and making things more interesting.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Blue Blood

[Marcello]

It is lacking and bare-bones to the point it's a mess. Almost nothing is explained as to why Sonic is here and there,

.. He was thrown through time in to White Space where the Time Eater left time holes to places Sonic has been.

when and how Classic Tails appeared

True

why Sonic fights bosses that don't look like the originals etc, etc, etc.

Non-plot related redesigns.

Edited November 16, 2011 by MarcelloF

[ArtFenix]

.. He was thrown threw time in to White Space where the Time Eater left time holes to places Sonic has been.

And why would he do that and place his friends there?

Non-plot related redesigns.

While you've got a point, I like how everyone now uses Time Eater as an excuse. Back in times of Sa2/Shth/SNG/SU people were making THEORIES of why things were changing/looking differently/etc. Now everyone just says: "Time Eater did that".

- Why is the Moon fixed again?

- Time Eater did that.

- Why Crisis City [which is awesome but it's from the game that prevented all bad future events including the existence of CC from happening] is in Sonic generations?

- Time Eater did that

- Why the physics of Sonic 4 ep 1 suck so much?

- Time Eater.

- Why the hell I'm in a car?

- Time Eater.

Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but still... Calling S06 a mess while calling SG story not a damn mess is double standards.

Edited November 15, 2011 by ArtFenix

[Marcello]

And why would he do that and place his friends there?

Well, Eggman is kind of an idiot.

[Kuzu]

And why would he do that and place his friends there?

You watched the final boss cutscene, and you're seriously asking this?

While you've got a point, I like how everyone now uses Time Eater as an excuse.

Back in times of Sa2/Shth/SNG/SU people were making THEORIES of why things were changing/looking differently/etc. Now everyone just says: "Time Eater did that".

- Why is the Moon fixed again?

- Time Eater did that.

- Why Crisis City [which is awesome but it's from the game that prevented all bad future events including the existence of CC from happening] is in Sonic generations?

- Time Eater did that

- Why the physics of Sonic 4 ep 1 suck so much?

- Time Eater.

- Why the hell I'm in a car?

- Time Eater.

Why the fuck does is matter so much? I

Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but still... Calling S06 a mess while calling SG story not a damn mess it is is double standards.

No, its you bitching about things that don't matter, instead of the story being a mess. Edited November 15, 2011 by Shadic93

[ArtFenix]

Well, Eggman is kind of an idiot.

And now I thought he was a genius with IQ of 300. >_<

You watched the final boss cutscene, and you're seriously asking this?

Did YOU watch the cutscene? Eggman didn't explain that at all. They never talked about why they opened some of the old locations and why they placed Sonic's friends there, placed every friend near every location. What's the purpose? they actually wanted Sonic to save them and ruin their plans AGAIN?

Why the fuck does is matter so much?

Because we were talking about the story being a mess or not. And that was my point of view on that.

No, its you bitching about things that don't matter, instead of the story being bad.

What? Afraid to agree that it's double standards?

Edited November 15, 2011 by ArtFenix

[Marcello]

You watched the final boss cutscene, and you're seriously asking this?

Why the fuck does is matter so much? I

No, its you bitching about things that don't matter, instead of the story being a mess.

Yeesh, chill.

And now I thought he was a genius with IQ of 300. >_<

That doesn't stop him from being an idiot =P

[Kuzu]

Yeesh, chill.

What? I cuss to get my point my point across sometimes.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Maybe it's just me, but I thought it pretty obvious that the reason the time periods and bosses are so drastically different is because

Eggman changed things to increase the odds of Sonic failing to repeat his past successes. Yes, it's obviously a handwave for creative licence, but it's as good an excuse as any in a Sonic game. With the GUN truck in City Escape suddenly having rocket boosters and buzzsaws the excuse even fits the profile.

Think it's improbable Eggman had a hand in shaping the levels? Then I ask you this: What's that Eggman sign doing at the end of half of the levels? Think about it.

[Scar]

It is lacking and bare-bones to the point it's a mess.

The lack of something isn't a mess. There is nothing there to cause a mess. If I tip over an empty glass, nothing will spill and there will be no mess.

Almost nothing is explained as to why Sonic is here and there

What do you mean? You mean you want an explanation as to why Sonic visited only certain stages from his past? How about you think of a reason and get back to me. Coming up with a contrived plot-reason for why Sonic only goes to Green Hill is far worse than not explaining it at all.

when and how Classic Tails appeared

I'll give you this much. It seems the cutscene might have existed, but was merely cut from the final game.

Why Sonic fights bosses that don't look like the originals etc, etc, etc. It IS a mess.

Now you're contriving a reason for a point that barely had any merit to begin with. Why doesn't Perfect Chaos look like the original? Because Sonic Team have a better graphics engine and hardware at their disposal. Why does Egg Dragoon look different? Because Sonic Team didn't want to have a Werehog fight ruining the nostalgia, so they changed the design to better suit Sonic's gameplay.

They look different because Generations isn't a remake, its a revisitation. They take things from the past and try to make them better, both gameplay wise and visually.

Much more than 06. I thought 06 had a lot of plot holes, but this...

No, it really isn't.

I'll give you a massive lists of reasons why.

Contained in a spoiler:

-Why does Sonic just stand there and watch the Egg Carrier fly away with Princess Elise, when moments later (not counting loading times and other such bullshit) he is shown to be fast enough to keep up with the damn thing!

- Why does Sonic go back to Soleanna, after yet again watching the Egg Carrier fly away with Elise once you complete Wave Ocean.

- Why does Sonic run away from Silver after Amy, someone who is helpless against someone with telekenisis like Silver? Why is Sonic such a cowardly bastard?

-In the context of the game, why in the name of fuck, does that Police Captain try to trick you by pretending to be the Leiutenant in a state of National Emergency. The Monarch of the country has been kidnapped by an evil scientist and this silly little cunt-mushroom is playing mind games with you. You can't even use gameplay as an excuse, because not only is it a shit mission, but it doesn't actually involve any fucking gameplay!

- Why does Mephiles go through all the trouble of sending Silver back in time to kill Sonic, when at the end of the game it is proven that he is more than capable of doing it himself. It just makes all of Silver's story and reason for existance, completely and utterly pointless and irrelevant.

- When Elise is given the blue emerald "10 years ago", it basically fucks all of Sonic's continuity up the ass, because it means that Sonic couldn't have had the emerald in Sonic 1, 2, 3 [4], Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes and Shadow.

Sonic 06's story is an actual mess. Primarily because it fails to explain anything within its given context in a meaningful way. Generations' lack of a story is miles better than the incohesive, pile of utter garbage that was 06's failed attempt at a serious plot.

If that isn't good enough for you, well then lets delve into the problems with SA2's plot. Granted there are fewer of them than 06, but they're no better than the complaints you've had with Generations' plot.

-When Tails is flying towards Prison Island for the first time, he spots Amy on the harbour. How did she get there? Its a heavily fortified prison building surrounded by guard robots and its in the middle of the Ocean. It is never properly explained how she got there. When Sonic asks her how she got there, she says she hitched a ride with Tails, which is of course impossible, because he spotter her while he was still flying towards the island.

- Why is Tails in a mech? Seriously, in the context of the franchise, he doesn't need to be in a mech.

- Why does the timer in Green Forest have 7 minutes remaining after the Sonic/Shadow fight in Hero mode, whilst in Dark Mode the timer is only 1 minute?

- Why does Eggman attempt to steal the Master Emerald when he doesn't need it. Also, why does Eggman say "This is the Master Emerald, is it not?" as if he'd only heard of it until then. He shouldn't need to say that considering he already stole the bloody thing in Sonic 3 and Knuckles?

- Whilst this is a small issue, why does Shadow fall to Earth? Sonic doesn't, so why does he? Does he just give up or what?

As you can see Generations plot 'problems' aren't really problems. Bosses having slightly different appearances is not a plot-related issue. They changed the design because it looks better. Half of the so-called 'plot problems' that apparently make the plot 'worse than 06' can be directed to the fact that the game, the hubworld and the stages and gameplay was designed before the story. The story had to fit around it.

Sonic 06's problems were just because it was poorly written.

[ArtFenix]

There are things like that in Generations too. I'll write about them tomorrow. It's late and I'm sleepy.

[ezodagrom]

About the lack of CGI cutscenes, I wonder if it was a lack of space (XBox 360 DVDs can only hold 7.95GB of data, the PC version is 8.4GB, from what I've heard the 360 version is in the 7~8GB range) and not a lack of time...

[Scar]

There are things like that in Generations too. I'll write about them tomorrow. It's late and I'm sleepy.

Really?

There isn't much in Generations to fault to be honest. The fact there is much is a fault in and of itself, but there aren't many sections within the plot that don't make sense other than Classic Tails randomly appearing. Yeah and maybe the fact that everyone except Sonic were frozen.

That's honestly about it.

-Different boss designs and apperances: Different gameplay and improved graphics

-Sonic visiting only certain parts of his past: Sonic Team can't include everything in the last 20 years, so he visits the places the Team decided to recreate

-Sonic using speed to restore everything. Makes a little sense.....sort of. The idea of speed is closely linked to Einsteinian physics. Going very, very quickly distorts time and space around the subject moving at said speed. In the context of this game, it may mean being able to restore the time-flow back to its original state by distorting the space-time void created by Time Eater.

[Radrappy]

Every sonic game is rushed. But not every sonic game FEELS rushed.

I will agree that the team for this game did a pretty crappy job of covering their tracks about it, leaving a lot of folks feeling unsatisfied. One of my personal problems with this game was the strange narrative pacing. Unleashed and Colors felt very satisfying in terms of having a beginning, middle and end. In both games you really felt like you had been on an adventure by the time the end credits started rolling. Generations is kind of just all over the place. You never really get to spend much time with the characters and there isn't nearly enough interaction between the two Sonics to make you care when they finally say goodbye.

The game is really a case of odd priorities. The crabmeats have lovingly crafted laughing animations for when they hit sonic with missiles, but the final boss is an unplayable mess. It's really the little things like this that make me suspicious the game was rushed out the door. The fact that there is no equivalent to the egg shuttle from colors, or even a menu where you can see what S ranks you have and how many you have left make the package feel incomplete too. And while it's true that the aforementioned cutscenes COULD have been crafted uniquely for trailers, it's highly unlikely given that that would be a proportional waste of resources. Those cutscenes are NOT cheap to make, sorry. Other small performance snags include frequent, long load times, frame rate dips, and plenty of glitches in general. I'm not sure about Unleashed but I know that Colors had very few if any of these issues.

[ArtFenix]

OK, this is for Scar.

Here are the odds and other shit of SG.

Two of them you've named already +

- Why wouldn't Eggman just freeze Sonic too or just make something that he would be erased from the timeline? It's the EXACT same thing you mentioned about Mephiles yet you forgot to mention this. Double standards again?

- If Sonic revisits locations and bosses from the past, why the hell is Eggman in the Egg Dragoon? I thought he was operating the Time Eater machine. And when he says something like "What is this? Save me, Sonic!", he is obviously just playing with him to confuse him. So if it's not the same Eggman, then there must be TWO modern Eggmen! WTF?!

- I've mentioned Crisis City. This level was erased from all the timeline. It just didn't and wouldn't happen. Solaris was destroyed, nothing happened anywhere anytime. I love this level, but they never even tried to explain why it's in the game.

- Why the hell Classic Sonic is mute when Classic Tails can speak?! [and it is a fact that Classic Sonic actually could talk. He talked in Commercials and in Sonic OVA and stuff]

- Why is Blaze there? [i love the character, but they never explained how she got there]

- Why the hell do Shadow and Silver try to kill/fight with Sonic?! Judging from their lines they are not their past-selves.

- Why is Tails in a mech? Seriously, in the context of the franchise, he doesn't need to be in a mech.

- Why does the timer in Green Forest have 7 minutes remaining after the Sonic/Shadow fight in Hero mode, whilst in Dark Mode the timer is only 1 minute?

- Why does Eggman attempt to steal the Master Emerald when he doesn't need it. Also, why does Eggman say "This is the Master Emerald, is it not?" as if he'd only heard of it until then. He shouldn't need to say that considering he already stole the bloody thing in Sonic 3 and Knuckles?

- Whilst this is a small issue, why does Shadow fall to Earth? Sonic doesn't, so why does he? Does he just give up or what?

This is just whining and nitpicking. It's like asking why Shadow uses boost in Generations or something like that. You WANTED to find some more so you could feel that you have more arguments.

OK, I've got some too.

- Why the hell is everyone watching Sonics lying on the ground and cheering them up instead of just HELP them?!

- How do they communicate to Sonics when they are fighting the final boss, when they are in kind of another dimension?

You know, there would be more and I think there are some more, but it's only natural that there are not a hell lot of them, because there is basically no story in the game!

Edited November 16, 2011 by ArtFenix

[Shade Vortex]

Uh, ArtFenix... Classic Eggman was the one in the Death Egg Robo saying "Sonic, save me!" - it's kind of hinted at with the "Eggman being captured twice" and the refusing to show him the first time...

Besides, Classic and Modern were both pulled by the Time Eater as part of their plan to remain inconspicuous and essentially made it seem as they were innocent victims. That part of the story actually makes sense. The Time Eater is a robot, it's not far fetched to that the creators of it could remote control it, surely?

It just seems like some of you are just finding excuses to say the game was rushed, to me. Honestly, maybe the story was rushed, but for a Sonic game, this one had a decently long development time and is sufficiently polished. I would never call the game as a whole rushed. That's my answer to this entire topic.

Also, for those of you arguing it, lack of or adding of CG cutscenes do not somehow instantly make a big enough difference for something to change from finished to rushed, it's more like it's intentional minimalism.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Shade Vortex

[ArtFenix]

OK, maybe it's my mistake [about Eggmen and T.E. machine, but I can still hardly believe it was remote controlled]

Honestly, maybe the story was rushed

That's what I am trying to say. I'm also trying to say it's no better than 06. In fact I think it's much worse, primarily because there is basically nothing in it. It's empty. 06 had a lot of plot holes, yes, but at least there was enough content in the story, enough conversations, backstory and events.

It just seems like some of you are just finding excuses to say the game was rushed, to me. Honestly, maybe the story was rushed

Story is a part of the game, so if it was rushed, we can say the game was rushed as well. No?

for a Sonic game, this one had a decently long development time and is sufficiently polished.

And I can't deny that. The game looks great and plays great. [just too short and easy] I like the game.

Edited November 16, 2011 by ArtFenix

[Agent York]

I would laugh if all the CG animation was being put to some short film about Sonic Generations that contained all the CG footage and story from the game.