So EXACTLY how much rehash is in E1?

[Blacklightning]

Some might recognise this as a conversation spawned from the Concept Fridays thread, but if only because the thread suddenly moved too fast to keep track and because it was largely offtopic anyway. When people use the rehash label on Sonic 4, it's usually used as a generalization. I thought it'd be interesting to see to exactly what extent that holds true, though honestly I'd say the answers are far from surprising.

So, let's break this down by zone, shall we?

Splash Hill

I really doubt it came as a surprise to anybody that S1 would have a grassy level 1 - every classic game to memory did the same thing, if not every 2D game period save for Advance 3. It only takes a quick look at the ground and grass patterns to note it's basically Green Hill HD - right down to virtually every foreground prop, from trees to flowers to purple rocks.

Every Badnik here is a direct rip from the original zone, with the exception of Bubbles, who comes from Marble Garden and persists throughout the entire game as the standard "lazy homing attack target" Badnik, completely ignoring the context of further level themes. Naturally, no new behaviours are given to existing Badniks. The wrecking ball boss from Green Hill also returns as Splash Hill's boss, with the sole difference being a pinch phase that changes the arc of the wrecking ball. Which... honestly doesn't change much how you fight it, really.

As far as level gimmicks go, well, there really aren't that many considering it's the token first level, but the few that do exist in there are pretty much direct rips from previous appearances - most notably the double helix loop from Emerald Hill. The ziplines have made plenty of appearances in other games, but I'd say the closest classic equivalent is Launch Base just going by the extremely linear nature of them.

Casino Street

Here we have our token Casino Night rip off. Granted, this is hardly the first time a Sonic game has done this (hi Sonic Heroes), but none have done it quite so blatantly. Every pinball object to memory is virtually an exact rip from the original zone equivalent, and hell, most of the tiles are uncanningly similar to the original zone's graphics even if not an outright upscaled rip. Even the likes of Sonic Heroes did stuff to differentiate from the zones of the same trope that preceded it - this... you literally can't look at it without first thinking "Casino Night did all this shit first".

Like the original it doesn't have many Badniks, but whereas Casino Night only has one, Street has three - one is the exact same bot from the original game, one is the flying bat thing from Carnival Night, and one is the aformentioned Bubbles still acting as a generic, defenseless homing attack target. Again, none of them have any new behaviours. As expected, the Casino Night boss makes another appearance verbatim, but this time doesn't even have a single difference to its name. Seriously, his pinch phase turns into his exact behaviour from Sonic 2, effectively downgrading him. How the fuck did that happen?

Well, considering all the pinball gfx I mentioned earlier it comes as no surprise that Casino Street steals every last one of Night's gimmicks, right down to the pinball slot machines. Then they threw in the cannons from Carnival Night for good measure - hilariously enough they don't actually launch you where they're pointed under their own momentum due to physics bullshit, which only goes to show how much they actually tested this game. Basically anything remotely original comes in Act 2, universally in the form of cards. You've got a chance of winning shit by running past them (which, considering the sheer volume they throw at you, might as well be the equivalent of throwing 30 life monitors and 50 rings monitors at you in close succession with a dashpad between each), you've got card platforms that remove their own collision boxes once you stand on them (which, despite PC's testimony to the contrary, is every collasping platform every made with a different skin) and the infamous platforming segment at the end where cards flip on and off in rhythm (which has already been done in Wing Fortress verbatim, again, under a different skin).

So far, one act out of six has original content of any kind. Not looking good at the moment.

Lost Labyrinth

Labyrinth Zone by any other name. While few will still deny the blatant influences from the original article, this is actually the most original of all the zones in Sonic 4, even if that isn't saying much. Even if the tiles and backgrounds aren't always the exact same though, it's pretty clear that they were deliberately trying to emulate the feel of the original level, which I'd say is still the textbook definition of a rehash - just that the content involved is less traced from the original art. The same pallete is there, the same use of water is there, the same Mayan-esque architecture is there... really, it takes a real analysist to list all the actual differences that exist, and that kind of detail isn't why I'm here. The point is, it isn't enough.

If you've been following the pattern so far, you'll be expecting every badnik to be a complete rip from the namesake level, with the offchance of other badniks from other such levels. That hasn't changed yet - all the badniks from the original level are here, completely unchanged. And yes, Bubbles is back again, and still does absolutely nothing. Wow, Dimps really can't go without their HA paths, can they? As usual, the boss rips the original's behaviour verbatim, but this time they actually added a unique pinch phase instead of having him run away like a pussy. Which is something I might've appreciated if it didn't take so damn long to hit him. I swear that crushy pillar thing's been done somewhere else besides Sonic 1's final boss too, but for the life of me I can't remember.

Gimmick-wise, everything's still there. Switches to open gates and plaforms, spears in walls, fire breathing statues (which still work underwater, somehow)... but surprisingly enough, there's actually some new gameplay in here. They've got the rolly boulder things in act 1 (though why they changed the controls for it instead of running them off Sonic's own momentum is quite beyond me), and then we've got act 2, which used to be a tilty-screen minecart level but it was so offensively bad that Dimps actually replaced it during the delay period with a torch mechanic which... really isn't much better. Reducing visibility in a game where visibility is already a genuine problem in a speed based game is a pretty fucking stupid idea, but Dimps showed an absolutely uncharacteristic measure of restraint by removing most of the spikes and deathpits first. Which basically means you're, umm, walking around in the dark. And lighting torches and fuses. That's about it really. It's really not all that interesting.

I can't remember anything that happened in Act 3, so I think it's safe to say it was wholly unmemorable. I think there was a minecart somewhere, but I'd like to think there's better options to fast transit without physically limiting Sonic's own mobility. Why does the entire cart jump, anyway?

Mad Gear

This here's Metropolis Zone. Well, obviously - no other reason why they'd colour all the steel green. I swear, too, that the background is literally an exact upscaled rip of the original. I really don't think there's any debating its overly close relation to the source material, so I don't think it necessary to describe the relations much more than that. The Badniks really aren't any different either, with the exception that Slicer takes slightly longer to attack. Bubbles is back again, but this time he brought recoloured red version that has... wait for it... spikes! Just like he did in his original appearance! Just like none of the actual blue Bubbles have! Innovation! Of course, neither model actually moves from the spot they spawn in, and more often than not the red ones aren't actually onscreen long enough to hit you with spikes during a HA chain, so uh... fat lot of good that does, huh?

As usual, virtually all the gimmicks from the original level are ripped shamelessly. Some might argue the steam vents being something new, but really, they're just springs with large hitboxes. You literally could've accomplished everything these steam vents do just by switching them out with strategically-placed springs, and it would't have made a single bit of difference to the level design. Then we've got Act 3, which steals the crushy wall from Hydrocity Act 2 as a recurring gimmick. Then once again we've got the completely unchanged Metropolis Zone boss before the pinch phase, at which point it turns into a chasing boss ala Advance 2. Uh... okay.

Final EGG

It's Sonic 2's Death Egg presented as a boss rush. Don't even fucking bother.

Special Stages

It's not exactly a stage per se, but considering it's still a blatant rip of the original Sonic 1 Special Stage I feel it still warrants discussion. Aesthetics wise, all they really changed was the background - nearly every foreground graphic is a blatant rip from the original, plus upscaling. You can literally put the two together and not notice much difference between them besides resolution.

I mean sure, you can tilt the screen manually (which effectively removes all control you had over Sonic himself), and Sonic bounces off walls instead of sliding down them (which further breaks any consistency the stage had with actual gameplay and turns it all into a pointless dexterity test), but just based off the graphics and premise alone you can't exactly blame anyone for pointing fingers and screaming "REHASH" considering that's still basically what it is in spite of the slight gameplay changes.

So, let's summarize:

- Every stage is a blatant rip, at the very least in theme and stylings, and at the very most in actual upscaled tile rips, of previous Sonic levels. Hence, rehash.

- Every gimmick in every such stage, with very mall exceptions, is one ripped either straight from the source or yet another level which may or may nost even be related to the level's theme. Hence, rehash. Even the parts that can be argued to be an original thought can just as easily be argued to be the worst parts of the game, so uh... hooray?

- Every badnik is a verbatim copy of previous badniks in the game, with absolutely no changes in design or AI. The sole exception being Bubbles, who does absolutely nothing and exists only as a generic HA target until Mad Gear, and even then still doesn't move. More than enough to cry rehash.

- Every boss is a verbatim copy of their original form until their pinch phase. With the exception of Casino Street, where the original form is the pinch phase.

- Any one of these conditions fulfilled would have been more than enough to reasonably label the game rehash material - the fact that all of them are true, at the very least to a particularly great extent, is quite troublesome.

Now that I've gone through all that, I'd just like to get a little footnote out of the way. I didn't make this thread with the intention of rubbing shit into anyone's faces. I made it simply to discern what exactly in Sonic 4 consitutes as a rehash and to inspire a discussion as such, in the possibility that we'll get this shit out of our systems and never have to discuss it again. I'm honestly sick of people who insist on defending this game despite evidence overwhelmingly contradictary to their claims, so here's to having a point of reference we can refer back to should the situation arise again.

[LoseR]

I was pretty much aware of all of this already but, one odd thing I noticed is that the fire spitting gargoyles don't actually SPIT FIRE! Why are they there?

[Blue Blood]

About the Casino Street boss... in pinch mode he puts a shield up, becomes a ball of electricity and bounces around the arena. That did not happen in the original. You're likely to miss this attack though if you beat him in the huge space of time before he does anything. But otherwise I agree with everything you say. It's so much a rehash that nostalgia plays no part in it. It's just lazy design.

EDIT: Casino Street Boss pinch mode

EDIT2: LLZ3 had water and two small tilting areas. None of the gargoyles in any act breathed fire however. And the final stage was E.G.G. Station. Final Egg was from SA1.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Blue Blood

[Indigo Rush]

I always felt that Sonic 4's rehashes were completely cosmetic. When you get to the music and the gameplay (for worse or for worse), it's mostly original. The homing attack and level design change up the pace to a point where I can't even focus on the game being Sonic 1 and 2 with plastic coating. Even so, the levels are indeed intentional rip-offs of previous levels.

I have to give props to Lost Labyrinth, though. With the rolling boulders, the mine cart, the torch puzzle and the surprising low usage of water, I think that it's the best of the 4. Aside from that though... can't say I'm willing to defend the rest of the game.

The vine swinging (which is nothing like Angel Island, by the way) the card flipping and gear mechanics, while nice, are not enough to make this game stand out as an inspired game. I mean, there IS originality and creativity in there, but nowhere near enough to warrant the amount of nostalgic throwbacks they did.

I understand that this was supposed to be Sonic's big nostalgic return, but it was also supposed to be Sonic 4, not some spiritual sequel. Save the blatant copying for Sonic Pocket Adventure HD or something.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Tails spin]

I agree with everything you said. Though I think that Casino Park and Bingo Highway are not as straight a rehash from Casino Night thought

[Tornado]

Far be it from me to compliment S4E1, but I actually didn't think Lost Labyrinth was that bad in terms of rehash.

That isn't to say it was good, but it was a lot more original than the "Sonic 2 in plastic wrap" that the rest of it was.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Celestia

[Spooky Mulder]

I think Splash Hill Zone would have been a fine first zone had it not been for the blatant rehashing of the badniks and the plasticy grass. People compare it to Green Hill a lot, but it really doesn't look that much like Green Hill. Had the stage made use of the "Splash" in the name with water gimmicks like shallow pools and slippery waterfalls it could have been an awesome zone.

And I really don't think Lost Labyrinth feels like a rehash of the original Labyrinth Zone. It looks nothing like it, as you acknowledge, but you also claim that it's designed to play like it and I must disagree with you on that front. Labyrinth Zone is a terribly slow-paced level that takes place mostly underwater. The ruins sections are short and pretty bland.

Lost Labyrinth on the other hand puts a strong emphasis on the ruins aspect. In fact, water only appears in the third act of LLZ. Gimmicks like the mine cart and the torches set LLZ far apart from its supposed source material. As a whole, the zone is much quicker and more fun than the original. While LZ was, in my opinion, the worst zone in its game, LLZ is the best in S4E1.

[Tails spin]

I think Splash Hill Zone would have been a fine first zone had it not been for the blatant rehashing of the badniks and the plasticy grass. People compare it to Green Hill a lot, but it really doesn't look that much like Green Hill. Had the stage made use of the "Splash" in the name with water gimmicks like shallow pools and slippery waterfalls it could have been an awesome zone.

And I really don't think Lost Labyrinth feels like a rehash of the original Labyrinth Zone. It looks nothing like it, as you acknowledge, but you also claim that it's designed to play like it and I must disagree with you on that front. Labyrinth Zone is a terribly slow-paced level that takes place mostly underwater. The ruins sections are short and pretty bland.

Lost Labyrinth on the other hand puts a strong emphasis on the ruins aspect. In fact, water only appears in the third act of LLZ. Gimmicks like the mine cart and the torches set LLZ far apart from its supposed source material. As a whole, the zone is much quicker and more fun than the original. While LZ was, in my opinion, the worst zone in its game, LLZ is the best in S4E1.

Alright can we all agree then that Lost Labyrinth is an exception to the rehash rule?

[Diogenes]

It's less terrible than the rest of E1 but it's still mostly rehash.

[Kamakai]

Labyrinth>Lost Labyrinth. I prefer the 25-year-old original. BUT I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE CLASSIC SONIC FANBOYS, I LOVED THIS GAME!

[Solkia]

Labyrinth>Lost Labyrinth. I prefer the 25-year-old original. BUT I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE CLASSIC SONIC FANBOYS, I LOVED THIS GAME!

...The Sega Genesis isn't even that old yet.

[Dwapook]

Labyrinth>Lost Labyrinth. I prefer the 25-year-old original. BUT I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE CLASSIC SONIC FANBOYS, I LOVED THIS GAME!

Someone could just as easily say someone has to be a fanboy to love this game.. It'd be just as meaningless.. I'd recommend breaking out of that way of thinking.. It goes against the spirit of this thread..

[Emmett L. Brown]

There seems to be this overwhelming conviction that Sonic 4 episode 1 was supposed to be a grand new classic-styled Sonic game following the style of the old Genesis games but with all-new content. And I can't blame you for thinking that when all you knew about the game was that it was called "Sonic 4". It seems a logical assumption. But after it became common knowledge that the game in front of us was just a generic HD Sonic game that got given the label Sonic 4 to raise sales, why are you still following the old line of thinking?

Yes, it's a rehashed redone remake. Was it ever intended to be anything else? The fans where cheated into thinking they were getting a Sonic 4, but now that you know the truth, there's little need to keep looking for clues to the culprit's identity. We already know. It was Old Man McDimpsy, and he would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you snooping kids and your mutant fox.

[-Mark-]

Just in reply to the first post, the enemies were redesigned. Hell, that's basically the first thing we ever got from the concept art. They changed the AI a bit too; I know how they were boasting about how Motobug could now actually stop and turn around. But yes, hardly makes for an original game, but just saying.

Incidentally, my only real gripe with Sonic 4 in terms of unoriginality was visually- it's okay to do generic ripoffs of old stages, but do they have to be so blatant? It looked less like "Okay, here's a generic casino stage" and "Here's Casino Night HD". Admittedly this is the first time they've ever rehashed Labyrinth and Metropolis (ish- Flying battery is arguably Metropolis 2, I suppose, but Labyrinth has never really been imitated), but still.

[Salamander]

Do we actually know who was responsible for deciding the game be titled Sonic 4? As far as I'm aware, we're not. But I do agree that the rehashing exists because this wasn't meant to be an original game. Obviously, how they actually went about the rehashing is worthy of criticism - poor physics, homing attack chains, etc. - but it's long been a truism that, if they'd simply called it something like Sonic HD and introduced it as a walk down memory lane, rather than having to pretend it was meant to be Sonic 4, rehashing would've been seen as what it is, a feature rather than a flaw.

As for the bosses, I think they should've been in pinch mode from the get-go, so you think at first glance you know what you're dealing with or recognise it as a reference but are then forced to handle something outside of your konwledge.

[Blacklightning]

About the Casino Street boss... in pinch mode he puts a shield up, becomes a ball of electricity and bounces around the arena. That did not happen in the original. You're likely to miss this attack though if you beat him in the huge space of time before he does anything.

Oh. So it's basically "ShTH Final Boss" syndrome then? No fucking wonder I never noticed any difference.

I wonder if there's a Trope for that.

EDIT2: LLZ3 had water and two small tilting areas.

Fuck, I KNEW I was forgetting something. I want to single those bits out specifically because while this sort of thing technically hasn't been done in a Sonic game before, Sonic 4 goes out of its way to ensure it has absolutely no relation to the game's mechanics in any meaningful way, which is not something a stage specific gimmick should be doing.

What the fuck even happened there? Why is the player suddenly given control over gravity? Why are you required to tilt water towards the exit point to progress? Why are you required to take a near-guaranteed hit from the spikes on the opposite wall? Those bits were somewhere between a Genre Roulette and an outright Big Lipped Alligator Moment, and the more I try to make sense of it the more my mind is blown by how fucking stupid and random the whole idea is. I just don't get it at all.

And I really don't think Lost Labyrinth feels like a rehash of the original Labyrinth Zone. It looks nothing like it, as you acknowledge, but you also claim that it's designed to play like it and I must disagree with you on that front.

Woah, slow down a minute there. That's not quite what I was trying to imply.

Is it because I mentioned the "feel" of the level? Might've been a poor choice of wording on my part. What I'm saying is, while the graphics aren't a clear tile-for-tile matchup with the level that inspired it, it's still pretty clear that they were deliberately trying to capture as much of the atmosphere from it as humanly possible, to a fairly similar extent. Take Emerald Hill for example. It's pretty clear that EH is a blatant Green Hill clone, arguably even on par with Splash Hill, but this isn't because it steals the former's resources outright - it just takes every last theme the original introduced and swaps some graphics around, to put it nicely.

That's pretty much what happened with Lost Labyrinth - it's decorated with very rough, bricky-looking shapes as opposed to Labyrinth Zone's rather smooth looking blocks, and has a more obvious contrast between predominantly indoor and outdoor backgrounds, but besides that, they're basically the same thing in slightly different coats of paint. Something of a spiritual rehash, if you will. Normally there's nothing terribly wrong with this - after all, Emerald Hill got away with it just fine - but it just happens to be packaged together with ripoffs far more shameless than it, so it's kinda hard to give Lost Labyrinth a free pass on what's arguably the second most infamous problem with the game (y'know, behind its trademark physics problems).

That said, Lost Labyrinth does steal pretty much every gimmick from Labyrinth Zone bar perhaps the conveyer belts, even if it adds "original" content on top of it. Take that how you will.

Just in reply to the first post, the enemies were redesigned. Hell, that's basically the first thing we ever got from the concept art.

By how much, though? Adding a bunch of extra lines to the character models doesn't exactly count. The only visible difference of note I even found while doing my research was the crabhammer dude from Mad Gear, and only because its hand wasn't all badass and spiky anymore like that asshole in Sonic 2.

To be fair though, I was referring to them on a mostly functional basis, and in that right there is near to absolute zero change in any of them. I wouldn't consider a change in animation or the ability to stop a particularly game-changing innovation if you get what I'm saying.

Incidentally, my only real gripe with Sonic 4 in terms of unoriginality was visually- it's okay to do generic ripoffs of old stages, but do they have to be so blatant? It looked less like "Okay, here's a generic casino stage" and "Here's Casino Night HD". Admittedly this is the first time they've ever rehashed Labyrinth and Metropolis (ish- Flying battery is arguably Metropolis 2, I suppose, but Labyrinth has never really been imitated), but still.

Bitch please, everyone know all industrial levels are ripoffs of Scrap Brain anyway. =V

Do we actually know who was responsible for deciding the game be titled Sonic 4? As far as I'm aware, we're not. But I do agree that the rehashing exists because this wasn't meant to be an original game. Obviously, how they actually went about the rehashing is worthy of criticism - poor physics, homing attack chains, etc. - but it's long been a truism that, if they'd simply called it something like Sonic HD and introduced it as a walk down memory lane, rather than having to pretend it was meant to be Sonic 4, rehashing would've been seen as what it is, a feature rather than a flaw.

Well, in spite of all my ranting I DO want to point out that rehashing isn't necessarily an inherently bad thing - after all, Generations pulled it off with flying colours, and then some. The problem with throwing it in Sonic 4 is that it further emphasizes the absolute laziness and lack of care that went into Sonic 4 in the first place. You can practically see their thought process unfold as you play through the game, for christ's sake.

"So, what have we got working so far?"

"Pretty standard classic Sonic engine that we totally ripped from Sonic Rush. Looks like it works fine but I haven't bothered testing it yet."

"Don't bother, it's already perfect. How's the art front going?"

"It looks kinda shit and all over the place, but we haven't spent much of our budget yet so we can still fix it."

"Don't bother, the less money we spend the more profit we make. How about levels?"

"We're upscaling a bunch of Genesis rips and swapping the tiles around for different layouts."

"Perfect. Keep thinking like that and we'll make money no matter how bad this game fares. What about marketing?"

"We're just gonna call it Sonic 4 and let it sell off name alone. Not like those dumbshits can tell the difference. Then we're gonna dripfeed absolutely inanenly small tidbits of PR to keep everyone at each other's throats interested up until release period."

"Fucking beautiful. I could kiss you, anonymous Dimps employee."

[Salamander]

I always find mysterious this implication that the head of Sonic Team or indeed anyone outside of Dimps had no influence on the game being called Sonic 4. I find it quite difficult to believe that it wasn't Iizuka's decision, whether or not it was his idea.

[Barry the Nomad]

Thumbs up for writing up your thoughts in a well organized manner, but thumbs sideways for stating something that has been known since even before Episode 1 released. Yes, there are a lot of reused elements. In fact, I think it would have been far easier to simply list what is new to the game and just say the rest of the stuff was rehashed from past games.

I believe knowing the history of the game's development helps a lot in understanding why so much of the game was the way it was. Initially the game was simply an HD Sonic title called "Sonic DLC" (internally). It wasn't intended to be the almighty Sonic 4, but rather the Sonic version of New Super Mario Bros Wii. Reintroducing classic stages and elements in HD with a few new moves. Different physics was probably not a major issue internally, as the game was probably seen as just another 2D series like Rush. "Why would it need to be 1:1 with the Genesis games, it's Sonic DLC, not Sonic 4! NSMBWii wasn't 1:1 with the classics." (what the minds at SEGA were probably thinking early in development). It wasn't until certain higher ups at SoA stepped in and suggested (or demanded) that it be Sonic 4 that what was originally a half hearted homage to the early titles, became the next big numbered titile in the numbered series.

Essentially, SEGA shot themselves in the foot.

I really do think that had the game been Sonic 4 from the very start, it would have gone a different direction. The early peeks at Episode 2 are probably far more in line with what a true Sonic 4 Episode 1 would have been.

[speedfreak]

To bad they didn't rehash the controls/game play from the classics. The ONE rehash everyone would have liked. :/

[Marcello]

The controls are better. Not making going Super A in the air was great =P

[Milo]

To bad they didn't rehash the controls/game play from the classics. The ONE rehash everyone would have liked. :/

Now THIS definitely needs to be QFT.

[Big Boss (legendsneverdie)]

To bad they didn't rehash the controls/game play from the classics. The ONE rehash everyone would have liked. :/

What?

[Autosaver]

He is basically saying that Sonic 4 copied a lot of things the classics had, except the controls and gameplay. (Good physics, no homing chains, etc)

[Detective Shadzter]

Ken Balough to the rescue

http://segabits.com/blog/2012/02/11/sonic-4-episode-2-will-only-have-one-throwback-level/

[Neon]

Ken Balough to the rescue

http://segabits.com/...hrowback-level/

The 'throwback level' is almost definitely going to be Aquatic Ruin.