Dr. Eggman's Good Side

[SchemingMinor]

A bit of depth, complexity, and ambiguity is one thing, but the series needs its villain as well. I like that Eggman is more than a generic evil guy that just exists to be defeated by the hero, but his role was and is as a villain, and if they're going to keep using him as one, they need to maintain that side of him.

Try imagining them doing the same thing to another character in the series. If they tried making Sonic not so much a hero, for example. They've done a bit of exploring Sonic's role as a hero, with his theme talking about him following his heart before anything else and being the "bad guy" in SatBK because what he believed was right conflicted with what others believed, but he's still going to go out there and save the day every time.

And it's not that Sonic is being forced into being "the Hero". The things he does are part of his character, and he's less without them. I think it's the same case with Eggman; it's good to explore him, both as a villain and as a character in general, but to lose his status as a villain is to lose part of his character.

It worked with Wario, the off again, on again villain, anti-hero, and part bastard.

If they play their cards right and treat him like his Nintendo doppelganger, then we could see something great on our hands, here. Hey, he might even get his popular spin-off mini game collection.

[Dr. Mechano]

It worked with Wario, the off again, on again villain, anti-hero, and part bastard.

If they play their cards right and treat him like his Nintendo doppelganger, then we could see something great on our hands, here. Hey, he might even get his popular spin-off mini game collection.

Indeed. I'm actually not opposed to Eggman reforming altogether if they pulled it off in such a way that kept his selfish streak intact.

Considering Eggman actually wins when he fights for good, it might not be a bad career change. Still, I know realistically it won't happen, and am fine with his status as a sympathetic villain.

Of note, the Sonic X comics actually explored this prospect- Eggman got everything he ever wanted as a public hero, El Gran Gordo. What started as an evil scheme got him all the fame, love, and attention he ever desired, and led him to almost hanging up his labcoat and turning good full-time. This heroic persona even caught the attention of the woman he'd fallen in love with, a subplot the comic was going to later address, but sadly never could due to its cancellation.

A shame, since if it'd gone on longer, we might've seen this surprisingly deep story arc really develop Eggman's character. I'm still very sad about its abrupt cancellation.

Edited April 25, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[SuperStingray]

A shame, since if it'd gone on longer, we might've seen this surprisingly deep story arc really develop Eggman's character. I'm still very sad about its abrupt cancellation.

Who knows? Maybe Universe will bring about something good for the doctor.

[Diogenes]

It worked with Wario, the off again, on again villain, anti-hero, and part bastard.

If they play their cards right and treat him like his Nintendo doppelganger, then we could see something great on our hands, here. Hey, he might even get his popular spin-off mini game collection.

The difference being that Mario still had Bowser, so the constant princess-kidnapping could continue. But without Eggman, who's going to put animals into robots unleash a shitton of monsters for Sonic to fight?

[SuperStingray]

But without Eggman, who's going to put animals into robots unleash a shitton of monsters for Sonic to fight?

Nega? He did it in Rivals 2.

[Diogenes]

Nega is the Sonic universe's Waluigi. With Eggman gone he'd just sort of vanish, appearing only in party games and DDR.

[Auther]

I see Sonic and Eggman are both heroes but they see each other as villains. They both want to shape the world in a way, Sonic wants a world where everyone is free and happy, but Eggman might want a world where everybody is safe and under his rule. Their ideas clash with the other's and they both have to fight to protect their beliefs.

[Flyboy Fox]

I can't help but feel that Eggman is still completely villainous. Evil, even. Despite any characterisation development that he may have had, he's still a thoroughly bad guy. Even if he honestly believes that what he's doing is right for everyone rather than just for himself, I still think that this way of thinking is twisted and corrupt enough to be, by definition, evil and morally bankrupt.

I can't see any trace of 'goodness' in a man who would without question sacrifice thousands of lives, even for 'the greater good'. I can accept that he is not as ruthless as he could be, but then I believe that is because he wants to preserve his domain to rule over rather than because he cares anything about the lives of his would-be citizens. After all, it wouldn't be much fun to rule an empire without anyone to be ruler over!

He's not like Eggman Nega, or the Joker, etc... these are men who "just want to watch the world burn". Their pleasure is in the destruction of everything and the chaos it invokes. But that's not the only form of evil. It's just destructive evil vs contructive evil.

I don't think that Eggman is becoming any more 'good'. Rather (and sadly) I think he is becoming more and more impotent. It seems to me that in many cases he joins the heroes not out of any sense of rightfullness, but rather because he has little choice if he is to preserve the planet that he wishes to rule over... or even, to preserve himself. I find it sad that he's unable, most of the time, to even keep a handle on the powers that he's trying to unleash. That, or he's outmatched by a more competant evil force.

Eggman is charismatic... quirky even. But I can't see him as being 'good' or 'moral'. To me, his moral compass seems entirely broken and all of his actions selfish to the core.

[BradAric]

Sonic Chronicles was great, he pulled the good guy thing for the whole game, and then... that's what Eggman should be like. Manipulating, sneaky. He proved that he could make anyone fall for his "charms", not just Knuckles.

D'OH! He had me fooled (sorta) but you just ruined that he's going to turn on them >_< I just got the game last week =P

ANYWAYS, Eggman turning "good" can also be viewed as him saving his own hide. Look at ShTH; Eggman was comparatively good to Black Doom and comparatively bad to Sonic's friends. He ultimately helped Shadow because there was no way he could take over the world if Black Doom destroyed it first. I believe this highlights his character.

Besides, look at all the times he's turned against whatever creation he brought forth (excluding Unleashed, I don't know how that one ends yet)

SA: Chaos didn't listen to him, so he tried to get it for insubordination

SA2: He was following his grandfather's wishes

Heroes: He was just pissed at being locked up by his own robot

Shadow: He wanted to take out the Black Arms so that he could then rule the world

S06: There was a rift in the space-time continuum, his choice was to help out or be killed

That's all I can think of, but also remember that with his genious, he can likely calculate the odds of his success against a supernatural being without Sonic's help as being pretty low...

EDIT:

Nega is the Sonic universe's Waluigi. With Eggman gone he'd just sort of vanish, appearing only in party games and DDR.

ROFL. Sonic DDR XD Awesome.

Try imagining them doing the same thing to another character in the series. If they tried making Sonic not so much a hero, for example.

*cough*SHADOW*cough*

Edited April 25, 2009 by SSBA51

[Dr. Mechano]

I don't think that Eggman is becoming any more 'good'. Rather (and sadly) I think he is becoming more and more impotent. It seems to me that in many cases he joins the heroes not out of any sense of rightfullness, but rather because he has little choice if he is to preserve the planet that he wishes to rule over...

What about in (I can't believe I'm going to positively reference this game) Shadow the Hedgehog? During the final battle, if you wait long enough, Eggman says this...

Shadow... can you hear me...? This might be the last chance I have to speak to you, so... What I said, about having created you... it was all a lie. Everyone thought you died during that horrible incident... but I rescued you, with one of my robots... You lost your memory, that's all... You really are the Ultimate Life Form my grandfather created!

Let's dissect this quote, shall we?

He says this might be the last time he gets to speak with Shadow, meaning he's accepted the world might be about to end. So why is he making this confession? Why is he trying to make amends- to set things to right- if it has no selfish benefit for himself?

This quote is entirely genuine. Eggman feels guilty for his lie, and apologizes. He wants Shadow to know who he really is- He feels he owes him that much, and understands that even if the world might be about to end, he's going to make this issue between him and his former ally right.

There was not one hint of selfishness in this moment.

I should also point to Sonic Adventure 2- Why would a twisted, completely "evil" man stay around and talk civilly with the heroes? If he was truly bad to the core, I couldn't see him be friendly, and even reverent to such a sensitive moment. Yet there was he, reminiscing about his childhood- likely a far purer time in his life- to one of his longtime foes, hoping to get these heavy feelings off his chest. It shows he trusts the heroes not merely as tools to help him save his skin, but as people with which he can have an honest conversation with.

Unleashed shows a little bit as well- Professor Pickle is kept in a comfortable, clean cell, and provided with tea and even his favorite food(Even though he criticizes Eggman's culinary skill in preparing it). Sure, it was wrong to kidnap him in the first place, but that he goes to such lengths to keep his prisoners in relative comfort instead of tossing them into a dank dungeon of doom really says something. Even Tails acknowledges this, noting that Eggman would never be cruel enough to starve his captives.

These examples are more than mere "I'll play nice so I can survive" bits. They're Eggman expressing a kinder side of himself, even when he really doesn't need to for any kind of benefit. It's just naturally who he is- He has a sense of honor, and to compromise it simply doesn't sit well with his character.

[Flyboy Fox]

I can't comment on the Shadow example except to state that this particular game makes no sense to me in any respect. I can't take any of it seriously as canon, even if it officially is. I got lost at 'hedgehog with guns and a motorbike'.

Reminiscing about his childhood - still seems like selfish behaviour to me. He knows how much he's put those heroes through, yet he's still going to use them to muse about his past, because they're there to listen. It's for his own benefit - living beings that he hasn't created, who he can get stuff off his chest to because he lacks any real friends. HE wants to talk about his past. It's his choice. And it's hardly appropriate, given the situation.

Professor Pickle - needs to be kept in relative comfort if he's to be of any use. A well-kept hostage is a well-behaved hostage, after all. I doubt Eggman had any genuine care for his prisoner's wellbeing beyond keeping him as low-maintanance and obedient as possible.

Like I said, I don't believe Eggman thrives on being cruel, but I don't think he's 'good' in any conceivable way either.

[Dr. Mechano]

I can't comment on the Shadow example except to state that this particular game makes no sense to me in any respect. I can't take any of it seriously as canon, even if it officially is. I got lost at 'hedgehog with guns and a motorbike'.

Be that as it may, it is a factual example of Eggman performing an unambiguously unselfish act, which would not only not benefit him, but also cost him any chance of manipulating Shadow later if he did beat Black Doom.

He was done lying to him. This was genuine remorse, and he boldly told the truth for no other reason than it being the right thing to do. A purely, 100% selfish person wouldn't make such a moral decision. Why bother with it?

Like I said, I'm not trying to downplay Eggman's bad side. Everyone knows that part exists, as do I. But to say his bad side encompasses all of his character simply seems wrong in light of this, in particular.

[Flyboy Fox]

But ultimately, was it for Shadow's sake or for his own? Knowing they were both likely to die would be the perfect time for a man to get something off his chest so it couldn't bite him in the ass later. Besides, he more than likely knew that Shadow, seeking the truth, would have learned it at some point anyway.

And even if I were to concede a genuine moment of remorse (in the light of impeding doom), I really can't use one instance in a messed up game as proof of Eggman having a 'good' side. I'm sure that if you look hard enough, you'll find an example in every bad person's life - even ruthless heartless dictators - in which they do something uncharacteristically un-selfish. It's a drop in the ocean overall and not enough for me to see that character as having a 'good side'.

[Blazey Firekitty]

In my mind, Eggman does bad things because he's largely a child in a man's body. He wants to play a big game and feed his ego, much like a small child would. I feel like the "it's all a game" mentality affects his ability to empathize with the anxities of those threatened by his schemes...in his mind, it's not a big deal, because in his naivete,(If I wanted to be more harsh I'd say "delusion"), he doesn't understand the emotional impact of his actions. He seems like the type who thinks he is only harming the body, but not the soul.

It seems like there are, however, rare times when he "gets it," even if he apparently represses what he learned to some extent afterwards. I'm mainly thinking of the ending of Sonic Adventure 2...Eggman relfects on how much he admired Gerald...then remarks, heartbrokenly, "Did he really mean to destroy us?" This is after seeing Gerald's video where the Professor states that all humanity is irredeemable and deserves to die. For me, I took that as Eggman basically going, "Wow...maybe I am a horrible person! Maybe I've never accomplished anything but causing others pain...What do I do now?"

To sum, I think for Eggman there's a disconnect between the way he sees the world in his mind and the way it really is. When he finds that reality is darker than the way he sees things...it shakes him. It hasn't shaken him enough to reform yet, but maybe someday.

That's at least the way I see it.;; I hope that was at least coherent, even if no one neccessarily agrees.

[Dr. Mechano]

In my mind, Eggman does bad things because he's largely a child in a man's body. He wants to play a big game and feed his ego, much like a small child would. I feel like the "it's all a game" mentality affects his ability to empathize with the anxities of those threatened by his schemes...in his mind, it's not a big deal, because in his naivete,(If I wanted to be more harsh I'd say "delusion"), he doesn't understand the emotional impact of his actions. He seems like the type who thinks he is only harming the body, but not the soul.

It seems like there are, however, rare times when he "gets it," even if he apparently represses what he learned to some extent afterwards. I'm mainly thinking of the ending of Sonic Adventure 2...Eggman relfects on how much he admired Gerald...then remarks, heartbrokenly, "Did he really mean to destroy us?" This is after seeing Gerald's video where the Professor states that all humanity is irredeemable and deserves to die. For me, I took that as Eggman basically going, "Wow...maybe I am a horrible person! Maybe I've never accomplished anything but causing others pain...What do I do now?"

To sum, I think for Eggman there's a disconnect between the way he sees the world in his mind and the way it really is. When he finds that reality is darker than the way he sees things...it shakes him. It hasn't shaken him enough to reform yet, but maybe someday.

That's at least the way I see it.;; I hope that was at least coherent, even if no one neccessarily agrees.

Actually, your theory makes perfect sense to me.

I also see Eggman as very childlike in the sense that, as a child would, he sees the world through a very simplistic, egocentric perspective. It's not that Eggman wants to harm others, but like a child, simply doesn't understand the extent to which he hurts others.

Really, I'd say you put it perfectly.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Actually, your theory makes perfect sense to me.

I also see Eggman as very childlike in the sense that, as a child would, he sees the world through a very simplistic, egocentric perspective. It's not that Eggman wants to harm others, but like a child, simply doesn't understand the extent to which he hurts others.

Really, I'd say you put it perfectly.

Wow, thanks, I guess I'm more insightful than I thought!

Looking back, I thought Blaze's interactions with Eggman were kind of interesting...He's still being very playful, but Blaze, used to the darker version of Eggman she'd been fighting, is very enraged, to the point where she eventually makes it very clear to Eggman that he wants him did. Sonic, who sees Eggman as more of a friendly rival, remarks to Blaze "That's kind of harsh."

I did like that she lightened up a little in her first encounter with Eggy though, making a little wisecrack about Eggman playing with fire and making a Sonic-eque smirk. I guess that fits Eggman's character...A child poking at a flame, not knowing just what he's playing with.

[Dr. Mechano]

Looking back, I thought Blaze's interactions with Eggman were kind of interesting...He's still being very playful, but Blaze, used to the darker version of Eggman she'd been fighting, is very enraged, to the point where she eventually makes it very clear to Eggman that he wants him did. Sonic, who sees Eggman as more of a friendly rival, remarks to Blaze "That's kind of harsh."

I loved that part too- It really shows that Sonic knows Eggman. He knows that Eggman, despite his actions, isn't really a bad guy deep down, and considers it harsh to wish harm upon the man himself.

I think it was one of those rare but very cool moments that highlight Eggman's and Sonic's somewhat friendly relationship- The two really don't hate each other, as some heroes and villains do. It was definitely a nice scene.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I loved that part too- It really shows that Sonic knows Eggman. He knows that Eggman, despite his actions, isn't really a bad guy deep down, and considers it harsh to wish harm upon the man himself.

I think it was one of those rare but very cool moments that highlight Eggman's and Sonic's somewhat friendly relationship- The two really don't hate each other, as some heroes and villains do. It was definitely a nice scene.

Yeah, I figure in Sonic's mind, most of the time, Eggman's just another friend, another playmate. He may get angry when he think the Doctor's gone to far, but it seems like Sonic appreciates having someone with a similar childlike outlook on the world, even if Sonic tries to look at things more realisticly.

[Flyboy Fox]

Wait, wait... Sonic thinks of Eggman as a playmate? As a friend? Are we... seeing the same Eggman, OR the same Sonic, here? ^^;

Sonic is laid back and unconcerned by nature... he has enough confidence not to see Eggman as a threat and considers their matches to often be quite fun - a challenge, a way to test and prove his own abilities. But I really honestly don't think he sees Eggman as a friend or playmate.

And of course he doesn't wish the man dead. Sonic values life, and probably hopes that Eggman is redeemable. They also show a mutual respect to the point that might appear to be friendliness, but I think that's dynamic more than real friendship. Sonic might occasionally 'like' Eggman for the challenge and fun he presents, and Eggman likewise may occasionally 'like' Sonic for being a worthy rival, once worth spending time on.

But I cannot see actual friendship in there AT ALL.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Wait, wait... Sonic thinks of Eggman as a playmate? As a friend? Are we... seeing the same Eggman, OR the same Sonic, here? ^^;

Sonic is laid back and unconcerned by nature... he has enough confidence not to see Eggman as a threat and considers their matches to often be quite fun - a challenge, a way to test and prove his own abilities. But I really honestly don't think he sees Eggman as a friend or playmate.

And of course he doesn't wish the man dead. Sonic values life, and probably hopes that Eggman is redeemable. They also show a mutual respect to the point that might appear to be friendliness, but I think that's dynamic more than real friendship. Sonic might occasionally 'like' Eggman for the challenge and fun he presents, and Eggman likewise may occasionally 'like' Sonic for being a worthy rival, once worth spending time on.

But I cannot see actual friendship in there AT ALL.

I think I get what you're saying...It seems like you mean that Sonic and Eggman try to make the best out of the difficult situations they put each other through, but more tolerate each other then enjoy each others' company.

I think part of the reason we wind up with such contradictory views of the characters among us is that Sonic and Eggman are very extroverted yet very introverted at the same time. What I mean is...They both act out in colorful and bizarre ways, yet they tend to hide their innermost thoughts. They wind up like a Rorshach ink blot, and we end up seeing more or less what we want to. At least that's my theory.

[Dr. Mechano]

I think I get what you're saying...It seems like you mean that Sonic and Eggman try to make the best out of the difficult situations they put each other through, but more tolerate each other then enjoy each others' company.

I think part of the reason we wind up with such contradictory views of the characters among us is that Sonic and Eggman are very extroverted yet very introverted at the same time. What I mean is...They both act out in colorful and bizarre ways, yet they tend to hide their innermost thoughts. They wind up like a Rorshach ink blot, and we end up seeing more or less what we want to. At least that's my theory.

We aren't the only ones. The cartoons did it too:

SatAM obviously focused on Eggman's evil side, as covered in another topic. He was unquestionably cruel and bad, and there was really no room to doubt this.

And Sonic X (Anime and comic) focused on his good side, making it far more upfront and obvious than it is in the games, by having him stand up and declare his heroic ideals, proclaim his stance against harming hostages, and even having him commit heroic acts in secret to help Sonic, while pretending to be villainously looking out for himself in order to preserve his reputation. (Sonic wasn't fooled, though, as he quietly thanked Eggman for his heroism in episode 71.) His almost fatherly advice to both Chris and Tails at crucial decision-making points(Accepting change for the former, and shooting Cosmo for the latter) also showed a gentler, caring side of his character.

I make it no secret this is my favorite portrayal of Eggman(particularly the X comic, where El Gran Gordo originates), even more than the Eggman of the games. But I still like game Eggman, as I feel he has many of these good qualities, although more balanced out by evil ones in the game series.

[Flyboy Fox]

Of course. An action-based video-game series such as Sonic is never going to give us an in-depth psychological profile of any of these characters... so in the end, it all comes down to interpretation. ^^ I think we're all driven by our desire as to how we WANT these characters to be, so we project those desires onto the characters and absorb back a soup made from a mixture of hard fact and self-generated opinion/theory.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Of course. An action-based video-game series such as Sonic is never going to give us an in-depth psychological profile of any of these characters... so in the end, it all comes down to interpretation. ^^ I think we're all driven by our desire as to how we WANT these characters to be, so we project those desires onto the characters and absorb back a soup made from a mixture of hard fact and self-generated opinion/theory.

Make sense to me Jai. Come to think of it, I started enjoying the Sonic games a lot more once I let myself embrace their "wacky head trip" nature.^^

Edit: Whoops! Somehow missed Gordo's post, there.

We aren't the only ones. The cartoons did it too:

SatAM obviously focused on Eggman's evil side, as covered in another topic. He was unquestionably cruel and bad, and there was really no room to doubt this.

And Sonic X (Anime and comic) focused on his good side, making it far more upfront and obvious than it is in the games, by having him stand up and declare his heroic ideals, proclaim his stance against harming hostages, and even having him commit heroic acts in secret to help Sonic, while pretending to be villainously looking out for himself in order to preserve his reputation. (Sonic wasn't fooled, though, as he quietly thanked Eggman for his heroism in episode 71.) His almost fatherly advice to both Chris and Tails at crucial decision-making points(Accepting change for the former, and shooting Cosmo for the latter) also showed a gentler, caring side of his character.

I make it no secret this is my favorite portrayal of Eggman(particularly the X comic, where El Gran Gordo originates), even more than the Eggman of the games. But I still like game Eggman, as I feel he has many of these good qualities, although more balanced out by evil ones in the game series.

That's a pretty good way of showing the extremed opposite sides of him. I completely forgot that Eggman tried to make Tails understand what Cosmo was doing at the end of the series. 4kids edited out a lot of emotional content in the dub from what I've heard, but I'm glad that was left in.

Edited April 25, 2009 by BlazeySammy

[Dr. Mechano]

Another thought on that- In Sonic X, Eggman actually has "friends" in the form of Decoe, Bocoe, and Bokkun. These robots actually have conversations with him and interact with him as people rather than simply taking orders as common henchmen would.

They may have been background characters for the most part, but I really think they played an important role in bringing out some of Eggman's better qualities. (When Decoe and Bocoe temporarily leave, Eggman has to make Bokkun breakfast, with humorous results. Still, it shows he cared enough to try.)

Considering X Eggman and Sega Eggman are almost the same character, perhaps the key difference was that X Eggman had friends and confidants to help him be a more well-rounded person, whereas Sega Eggman is usually left to plot and scheme, all alone. ...well, in Unleashed he had SA-55, but he wasn't very good moral support like the X robots were.

Their role is expanded on in the comic too, where after being fired for a short period, they realize they can't abandon the Doctor, and return to help him defeat his new traitorous robots. They also try to angrily talk Eggman out of getting too into his role as El Gran Gordo, trying to remind him of "his place" as a villain, and showing no qualms with directly talking to him as equals. There was just really that sense that they were more like his friends than his minions, and I loved that.

It makes me think that all Sega Eggman needs is someone to open up to like that, and he'd be happier and more fulfilled with himself- and more prone to show his good qualities- too. Maybe.

Edited April 25, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Flyboy Fox]

I think that would be a mistake - he's already becoming more and more impotent as the main villain. I'd rather see something happen that would give him a jolt and actually become a more dangerous villain than one even less inclined to be a threat to Sonic and co. I want to see a real showdown for once, with Eggman as a real threat who isn't going to be swayed over or intimidated or forced to back down. Otherwise, the very foe who was created to be Sonic's trademark rival is just going to end up as a powerless laughing stock and will no longer be the iconic arch-foe that he's meant to be.