This guys rant on Modern Sonic games

[SuperStingray]

Again, I don't think nostalgia is a good word for it. At least in a derogatory context. Nostalgia is really just looking backward and seeing things as better just because you enjoyed them when you were younger. But he has reasons (albeit some overly pedantic) and if he has logical reasons to dislike the state of the series, let him. It's his immediate judgementalism and elitist attitude that really bothers me.

Edited March 30, 2009 by SuperStingray

[LATER BUDDY]

Another Sonic rant? This isn't anything new, >_<.

People just need to learn to accept that if they are going to be a Sonic fan, either stay in the past and ignore the new games you don't like, or just accept the new games and move on with your life, XD. It's not that hard really. I don't like a majority of the newer Sonic games, but you don't see me whining on the interwebz about it, ^^".

Like Flyboy said, I could care less about this, =P. That art is awesome though, 83.

-Blur

[sk8terboi2020]

http://nicochi.deviantart.com/art/Sonic-in...-Zone-117341739

Just wanted to show this to you all. What do you guys think about this guy's rant?

Seems rather unfortunately laughable to me!

lol

[Phos]

But that's more an issue with execution than it is with the concept. It's not really fair to blame the age of the game if it was just plain poorly made.

Speaking from personal experience...

A trend emerges. I'll admit, perhaps I put Sonic Adventure 2 a bit too low (I'm only counting how Sonic sized character play), but it's an MS Paint masterpiece, so lay off. Make no mistake, Sonic Advance 3 is as high as it is because of it's Special Stage.

The sooner Sonic fans realise that they make up probably less than 10% of the sales of any Sonic game, the sooner they will realise why no game will ever be aimed at them again

Sonic's name will only hold out for so long. Plus, I feel like they could make a lot more money off a game that fits this bit:

When people say Sega should make a new game that's more "like the Genesis games", it doesn't mean with Genesis graphics. It doesn't mean on the Genesis. It doesn't even mean in 2D. What it refers to are the universal and timeless properties of the original Sonic formula described higher (platforming, vertical exploration, realistic weight, etc). Does that sound "nostalgic" or even "retro" in any way to anyone?

[Blazey Firekitty]

Another Sonic rant? This isn't anything new, >_<.

People just need to learn to accept that if they are going to be a Sonic fan, either stay in the past and ignore the new games you don't like, or just accept the new games and move on with your life, XD. It's not that hard really. I don't like a majority of the newer Sonic games, but you don't see me whining on the interwebz about it, ^^".

Like Flyboy said, I could care less about this, =P. That art is awesome though, 83.

-Blur

One of the main things I realized, after I finally admitted to myself that I was taking Sonic too seriously and wasn't having fun with it anymore, was that the whole series looked a lot more fun once I took the mindset of "Sonic is about being inherently weird."

Come to think of it, that's basically how Sonic fandom started for me. I didn't like it at first, because I was a crazed Mario loyalist, but after I saw how unique and interesting it was, I grew to love it.

[Gamenerd]

You know, he does have a point as far as gameplay is concerned. I want to play Sonic, not F-Zero, and as much as many of you may consider this blasphemy, old Sonic's most basic gameplay formula was basically to take Mario, apply speed, and add exaggerated, momentum-based, weighted 360º physics that gave you a sense of achievement in maintaining high speeds and doing EXTREEM stunts.

But his bitching about graphic and music style reeked of nostalgiafaggotry; I personally thought Unleashed had it spot on in terms of location design and music (although a bit more variety outside of just "cities of the world" would be nice, and the monster of the week cliche is wearing thin), and many games such as the portable titles and Heroes had fitting graphic design and music (although Heroes' music didn't suit my tastes). Unless his idea of "fitting" graphic design is to revert everything back to Genesis style but in 3D, then I don't see what's the problem with SA, SA2, Heroes and Unleashed.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I kinda get the general idea that Hero is an overlooked gem. Egg pawns and team system aside, it seems like it's really oozing with a retro feel. I really look forward to playing it.

[Blacklightning]

Speaking from personal experience...

One does not base fanservice off the wishes of a single fan. Why bother if you can't please the majority of Sonic players at once (note that I'm not singling the fans themselves out here)? That said, I'm really not obligated to take your little chart in as fact, particularly because a lot of what I hear around the place goes against several games listed there.

Make no mistake, Sonic Advance 3 is as high as it is because of it's Special Stage.

A special stage matters that much? Even from a nostalgic perspective I find that difficult to believe.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm guessing you haven't played Rush yet, Phos? It had a special stage very similar to the one from Sonic the Hedgehog 2.

[Rusty Spy]

I'm guessing you haven't played Rush yet, Phos? It had a special stage very similar to the one from Sonic the Hedgehog 2.

And speaking of which, it was a perfect example of taking old concepts and improving them to make it feel fresh.

I really don't see why so many people think Heroes feels "retro" or "classic" or however you want to phrase it. Garishly bright, sure, poorly written, sure, but at no point did I get the feeling I was playing something in the same style as the Genesis Sonics in any aspect. SA is easily several times more "retro" than Heroes.

Frankly, I felt no 3D Sonic game felt anything like the oldies, but to each their own I guess. But Heroes seems to be more influenced by the Genesis styles by being incredibly surreal, bright, colorful, and overall standing out and being being full of flavor compared to the designs of the other games.

Edited March 30, 2009 by VirgoTheCougar

[Diogenes]

I kinda get the general idea that Hero is an overlooked gem. Egg pawns and team system aside, it seems like it's really oozing with a retro feel. I really look forward to playing it.

I really don't see why so many people think Heroes feels "retro" or "classic" or however you want to phrase it. Garishly bright, sure, poorly written, sure, but at no point did I get the feeling I was playing something in the same style as the Genesis Sonics in any aspect. SA is easily several times more "retro" than Heroes.

[Autobobby1]

His entire rant can be summed up in this quote:

In the end, the only people Sega should listen to are those who only like the Genesis games. It may appear arrogant to say that, but it's ok to be arrogant when you're right.

Not because they were made "in the past"! But because those are the only Sonic games that are consistent, and good. People who accept the current direction are not supporting progress or evolution, they are supporting regression and inconsistency, and thus, their opinions are insignificant. It's the same for people who like both, because they would just like anything anyways, and should also be ignored by game developpers.

If you're a Sonic fan, and want Sonic to go back to his days of glory, the correct thing to do isn't to accept his current image and gameplay concept. Complaining is the only way anything is going to change. Complain, complain, complain relentlessly.

I agree with some of his points, but no matter how many times he defends himself he's still a nostalgic freak.

He says that Sonic needs a physics engine with realistic weight and momentum. But a ton of games do that now, so Sonic needed to find a way to stand out. That's why they upped the speed.

I immediately stopped caring about what he said when he bashed every person who likes the modern character designs in one sentence. I mean, come on! How can he do that? Sonic is virtually the same, except he's got different proportions.

[Gamenerd]

I kinda get the general idea that Hero is an overlooked gem. Egg pawns and team system aside, it seems like it's really oozing with a retro feel. I really look forward to playing it.

In terms of visual design, it's the closest thing to a 3D classic Sonic title we've ever got.

Sadly the camera, engine and level layouts are abysmal.

The thing that pisses me off is that many 3D Sonic games have got things right, but none have got them all right. Sonic Adventure had excellent level designs (for Sonic, Tails, Amy and e-102, anyway), Unleashed, Adventure and Black Knight had amazing music, Sonic Jam had somewhat decent camera (in the "Sonic World" section), Unleashed had an absolutely solid physics engine, Heroes had surreal retro-esque stage graphics, Sonic Adventure 2 had just the right amount of speed, Sonic Adventure had bearable hub zones, Black Knight made all extra characters purely for alternative gameplay rather than as extra parts of the story, Shadow managed to make a game based on one simple game style as opposed to 5 or 6 different styles, and the first two Adventure titles had decent side distractions such as the Chao Garden. Put all this together and you've got something pretty special, even if it hasn't quite got the same charm as the classics.

[Phos]

One does not base fanservice off the wishes of a single fan. Why bother if you can't please the majority of Sonic players at once (note that I'm not singling the fans themselves out here)? That said, I'm really not obligated to take your little chart in as fact, particularly because a lot of what I hear around the place goes against several games listed there.

A special stage matters that much? Even from a nostalgic perspective I find that difficult to believe.

I'm just explaining where my views on the relative quality of Sonic games come from.

And Sonic Advance 3's special stage is easily the best in the franchise. Too bad you have to play the rest of the game to get to it.

I'm guessing you haven't played Rush yet, Phos? It had a special stage very similar to the one from Sonic the Hedgehog 2.

I played it for a few minutes, but quit because I can't find a DS emulator that will let me resize the screen.

Sonic 2's special stage is kind of unfair, in addition to the pop in, they've got blind corners with bombs behind them. It doesn't hurt the game so much, because the Chaos Emeralds are kind of useless in Sonic 2.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I really don't see why so many people think Heroes feels "retro" or "classic" or however you want to phrase it. Garishly bright, sure, poorly written, sure, but at no point did I get the feeling I was playing something in the same style as the Genesis Sonics in any aspect. SA is easily several times more "retro" than Heroes.

In terms of visual design, it's the closest thing to a 3D classic Sonic title we've ever got.

Sadly the camera, engine and level layouts are abysmal.

Hmm, judging from this, it's a case of the style not matching the substance.

I immediately stopped caring about what he said when he bashed every person who likes the modern character designs in one sentence. I mean, come on! How can he do that? Sonic is virtually the same, except he's got different proportions.

I honestly can't think of how Tails or Knuckles are different in any major way, unless one counts Knuckles being a darker shade of red than he used to be.

[Phos]

He says that Sonic needs a physics engine with realistic weight and momentum. But a ton of games do that now, so Sonic needed to find a way to stand out. That's why they upped the speed.

Outside of driving games, how many apply it to the player character? As Yahzee said, Havok is essentially middle ware for simulating the physics of empty cardboard boxes. It can do much more, but that's all I've seen anyone do with it.

In terms of visual design, it's the closest thing to a 3D classic Sonic title we've ever got.

Sadly the camera, engine and level layouts are abysmal.

The thing that pisses me off is that many 3D Sonic games have got things right, but none have got them all right. Sonic Adventure had excellent level designs (for Sonic, Tails, Amy and e-102, anyway), Unleashed, Adventure and Black Knight had amazing music, Sonic Jam had somewhat decent camera (in the "Sonic World" section), Unleashed had an absolutely solid physics engine, Heroes had surreal retro-esque stage graphics, Sonic Adventure 2 had just the right amount of speed, Sonic Adventure had bearable hub zones, Black Knight made all extra characters purely for alternative gameplay rather than as extra parts of the story, Shadow managed to make a game based on one simple game style as opposed to 5 or 6 different styles, and the first two Adventure titles had decent side distractions such as the Chao Garden. Put all this together and you've got something pretty special, even if it hasn't quite got the same charm as the classics.

Adventures levels: These came the closest. If where Sonic's levels should be is "the whole way", Adventure was halfway there.

I did not find any on SatBK's to fit a Sonic game.

Sonic World's camera didn't show you enough. The only reason it worked at all was the lack of enemies and slow speed.

Sonic Unleashed's physics engine is also what I'd call "halfway there". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o23Gf5mHif0somewhat well know thing comes a lot closer, though it still is missing many things.

In my opinion, Sonic Adventure 2 is physically too slow, but is laid out with an emphasis on speed, and end up getting both wrong.

I'd rather the other characters get their own stories, like in Sonic & Knuckles.

Though, put all the things you listed together, and you get a much more respectable game than Sonic has had in a while.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Phos

[Indigo Rush]

Someone analyzing the Sonic series with their own bias? Nothing new here.

NEXT!!

Edited March 30, 2009 by Indigo Rush

[ovarloard]

And that's because all opinions are not equal. Some are more grounded in reality, and supported by truth and facts. Some are right, and some are wrong. Some are stupid, and some are uneducated.

opinion - noun - a personal view, attitude, or appraisal

Edited March 30, 2009 by OvErLoRd Darkspine

[Blazey Firekitty]

Someone analyzing the Sonic series with their own bias? Nothing new here.

NEXT!!

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

[Dark Qiviut]

*quasar facepalm* I read that rant not long ago, and I wonder whether he's just twisting my words around regarding my "Defense of Modern Sonic" essay and my critique of this guy's stamp: http://darkqiviut.deviantart.com/journal/23862243/ (Read the comments for the full details.)

Expect me to write a stern critique of his rant soon.

His rant looks, feels, and smells like the same pessimistic, elitist rant he made on these pictures a while back. But by being rather cutesy with his words instead of displaying full-blown elitism in the previous two.

It's a shame many people completely buy his nonsense.

P.S.: I counter his rant with this: http://darkqiviut.deviantart.com/journal/23929162/ (Comments and criticism appreciated.)

Edited March 30, 2009 by Dark Qiviut

[Blacklightning]

Outside of driving games, how many apply it to the player character?

There's a good reason why nobody does, you know. Most of the time, it doesn't work. I actually tried this personally (well to be fair, it wasn't Havok, but all the same it achieved the same purpose) and in practice it's incredibly clumsy and uncontrollable. Hell, even on a flat surface all it takes is a small bump to muck things up.

I tried full loops, corkscrews, wallruns, hell even a sphere or two - most of it is completely unplayable without a fence of some sort (that's even assuming gravity doesn't pull you off the track in mid-run). Simply put, merely slapping physics designed for simple objects onto a player character won't work at all - you'd need a MAJOR rewrite of the physics code for it to be playable, let alone enjoyable.

I still say it could be alright if that kind of physics were restricted to a rolling state though - that way you can revert to a stable standing stance if things don't go the way you planned. No bearing on the topic or anything - I just feel you should know that it ain't as simple a process as you often make it out to be.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Blacklightning

[Phos]

His rant looks, feels, and smells like the same pessimistic, elitist rant he made on these pictures a while back. But by being rather cutesy with his words instead of displaying full-blown elitism in the previous two.

It's a shame many people completely buy his nonsense.

P.S.: I counter his rant with this: http://darkqiviut.deviantart.com/journal/23929162/ (Comments and criticism appreciated.)

hmmmm...

Great job misreading his thingy.

But no. When people say Sega should make a new game that's more "like the Genesis games", it doesn't mean with Genesis graphics. It doesn't mean on the Genesis. It doesn't even mean in 2D. What it refers to are the universal and timeless properties of the original Sonic formula described higher (platforming, vertical exploration, realistic weight, etc). Does that sound "nostalgic" or even "retro" in any way to anyone?

E: Got Ninja'd

There's a good reason why nobody does, you know. Most of the time, it doesn't work. I actually tried this personally (well to be fair, it wasn't Havok, but all the same it achieved the same purpose) and in practice it's incredibly clumsy and uncontrollable. Hell, even on a flat surface all it takes is a small bump to muck things up.

I tried full loops, corkscrews, wallruns, hell even a sphere or two - most of it is completely unplayable without a fence of some sort (that's even assuming gravity doesn't pull you off the track in mid-run). Simply put, merely slapping physics designed for simple objects onto a player character won't work at all - you'd need a MAJOR rewrite of the physics code for it to be playable, let alone enjoyable.

I still say it could be alright if that kind of physics were restricted to a rolling state though - that way you can revert to a stable standing stance if things don't go the way you planned. No bearing on the topic or anything - I just feel you should know that it ain't as simple a process as you often make it out to be.

I was referring to pinball dynamics, not actually realistic physics.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Phos

[Blacklightning]

I was referring to pinball dynamics, not actually realistic physics.

Same difference for the most part. Either way, point stands - it's not simple no matter which way you put it.

[Phos]

Sonic doesn't bounce, though. He tends to follow the contours of surfaces.

[SuperStingray]

It's ok to be arrogant when you're right.

I may have disagreed with a lot in there, but it's really this line that made me want to gag him with a steak knife if that's even physically possible. It's that mentality that fuels racism, genocide, nativism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism and pretty much every form of hate on this planet. That may sound like an exaggeration, but until people learn the difference between fact and opinion, no matter how one-sided the zeitgeist is over said opinion, society will get nowhere. I'd put him in his place, but I'd rather not rant over it only to have it blocked out of his head by his lead-thick ego.