Are we getting too picky?

[Candescence]

With the homing attack or just adding post-Dreamcast elements to the game, I'd just like to compare it to New Super Mario Bros. a lot of things from 3D Mario actually aided 2D Mario gameplay as well, such as triple-jumps, wall kicks and the pound attack, and I can't see a few 'new Sonic' elements harming Sonic 4

Well, to be fair, the triple-jumps, wall kicks and the pound attack are good additions in general. The Triple-Jump actually turned up first in Donkey Kong 94 (God I love that game), albiet with slightly different execution.

The homing attack was never designed for 2D, it was originally designed to make defeating enemies easier in 3D. While it was acceptable for Sonic's first leap into 3D, it's becoming a crutch, IMO, as there are surely other, more creative and less cheap ways of doing the same bloody thing. It was fine in the Advances and Rushes because, outside of speed-runs, the homing attack was nerfed until it was near-useless. Here, on the other hand, they've re-buffed it, and it's evident that Iizuka has a blatant hard-on for it, and it shows. I stand by my previous claims that a homing attack in 2D that isn't nerfed is like giving you the Crissaegrim right off the bat in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, it's just going to kill most of the challenge outright.

Oh, and that bloody "homing attack flying enemies over a gap" thing is seriously getting old, it never was creative level design in the first place.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Masaru Daimon

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Here, on the other hand, they've re-buffed it, and it's evident that Iizuka has a blatant hard-on for it, and it shows.

Did they show videos of the Homing Attack in action to confirm this, or is that just an assumption on your part?

[Candescence]

Did they show videos of the Homing Attack in action to confirm this, or is that just an assumption on your part?

It's been obvious since the first leaked video and the screenshots of Sonic homing attack enemies over a gap. When Iizuka gives so much focus to the homing attack, it's highly unlikely that they still made it useless.

Speaking of which, from what I've seen, it's fundamentally broken because you can't nerf it without making it useless, as the Rushes and Advance show. An easily spammable attack that homes in one's enemy is fundamentally impossible to 'balance' without turning it into an entirely different type of attack, removing the homing function just gives you SRB2's speed thok, for example.

Edit: I needed to re-word one of my sentences.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Masaru Daimon

[Rusty Spy]

It's been obvious since the first leaked video and the screenshots of Sonic homing attack enemies over a gap.

Though likely, it still isn't definitive, with confirmed proof that it'd be used to find alternate routes rather than crossing gaps. So no, it isn't obvious.

Speaking of which, from what I've seen, it's fundamentally broken because you can't nerf it without making it useless, as the Rushes and Advance show.

How about nerf the speed and range.

An easily spammable attack that homes in one's enemy is fundamentally impossible to 'balance' without turning it into an entirely different type of attack

Make enemies, you know, FIGHT BACK.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's been obvious since the first leaked video and the screenshots of Sonic homing attack enemies over a gap. When Iizuka gives so much focus to the homing attack, it's highly unlikely that they still made it useless.

From what I've seen, it's still anyone's guess.

Crossing over a gap is not something I would give the HA credit in being "buffed" in any sense.

Speaking of which, from what I've seen, it's fundamentally broken because you can't nerf it without making it useless, as the Rushes and Advance show.

What Black Spy said. It's not like you can't do anything with anything else just by having the homing attack around. Why not change some things up so it's not so broken or useless. There are ways that you can go about to work around getting rid of those problems.

An easily spammable attack that homes in one's enemy is fundamentally impossible to 'balance' without turning it into an entirely different type of attack, removing the homing function just gives you SRB2's speed thok, for example.

So how about having the enemies fight back, or utilize some form of defense that make it harder to want to invoke using the homing attack like they've actually done in previous games before? Or you could have the enemies become more aware of the attack and try to dodge it by jumping out of the way the split second they predict it coming, with a great emphasis on "predict" so that the enemy isn't impossible to hit but not to easy to touch?

On top of that, hearing about the first boss fight changing strategies after the third hit by spinning the wrecking ball around 360 degrees seem to say otherwise on it being an easily spammable attack. If you time the attack wrong, you'll end up hitting the ball and getting the rings knocked out of you.

Also, base on those who have previewed the game, signs seem to point at the HA actually expanding the gameplay than cheapening it. Although that said, it's still anyone's guess, so it's not so obvious.

Edited March 30, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[DistantJ]

At the same time though, you could have the option to either homing attack enemies across a gap to a high area or drop down said gap for a different route. Also as I said I think it keeps the flow going without having to slow down and steer your jump. So long as it doesn't make the game too easy.

But yeah, I kinda agree with ChaosSupreme, the homing attack can be a challenge when done right - enemies with electric fields or retracting spikes can be far more dangerous when you have a homing ability, and the challenge can be in judging whether to execute the attack or to let Sonic fall, your timing as a result could land Sonic in different areas.

@DistantJ

I take it that you haven't seen the leaked footage?

http://www.destructoid.com/leaked-sonic-4-footage-confirms-it-s-a-sonic-game-163943.phtml

I think it looks good myself...

Thanks for the link. Yeah, I have actually seen it, but I don't think there's much to judge it on, I mean it seems pretty clear that it's an unfinished test since he hits a 'cieling' on the loop and such, and it's the very beginning of the very first zone so you can't really get an idea of alternate routes etc. But yeah, it looks like it's on it's way to becoming a really cool game. Sometimes I wish they hadn't named it Sonic 4, because it's not going to be judged on it's own merits now.

[Candescence]

Though likely, it still isn't definitive, with confirmed proof that it'd be used to find alternate routes rather than crossing gaps. So no, it isn't obvious.

Iizuka has confirmed that it'll be used to access alternative routes. So, yeah.

How about nerf the speed and range.

The Advance and Rushes already did that (as well as only allowing its use when you've bounced off something else), and it became so useless that nobody uses it outside of speed-runs.

Make enemies, you know, FIGHT BACK.

Then it'll be Sonic Heroes all over again. Everyone hated it when enemies couldn't be destroyed in one hit and actually fought back in that game.

From what I've seen, it's still anyone's guess.

Crossing over a gap is not something I would give the HA credit in being "buffed" in any sense.

In the leaked footage, the guy playing the game spammed it, taking out a badnik, and then used it several times in mid-air against a wall before he even touched the ground. If anything, I think it might be even cheaper than in the 3D games so far.

What Black Spy said. It's not like you can't do anything with anything else just by having the homing attack around. Why not change some things up so it's not so broken or useless. There are ways that you can go about to work around getting rid of those problems.

You don't go changing around an entire game just to accomodate one move for the sake of balance. If that's the only option, it speaks volumes on how broken the homing attack is. It's especially jarring as it's a classic-styled game.

So how about having the enemies fight back, or utilize some form of defense that make it harder to want to invoke using the homing attack like they've actually done in previous games before? Or you could have the enemies become more aware of the attack and try to dodge it by jumping out of the way the split second they predict it coming, with a great emphasis on "predict" so that the enemy isn't impossible to hit but not to easy to touch?

The doging thing would be harder to do since it seems you can pull off multiple homing attacks in mid-air now, I already mentioned that Sonic enemies that fight back are generally disliked (outside of Sonic Heroes, that bloody mantis, for starters), and while a defense is generally a good idea, I've only seen it with one enemy in Casino Night Zone in the classics.

On top of that, hearing about the first boss fight changing strategies after the third hit by spinning the wrecking ball around 360 degrees seem to say otherwise on it being an easily spammable attack. If you time the attack wrong, you'll end up hitting the ball and getting the rings knocked out of you.

That additional strategy might've been done even if the need to accomodate the homing attack wasn't there, really. I still say it's kind a rehash, though.

Also, base on those who have previewed the game, signs seem to point at the HA actually expanding the gameplay than cheapening it. Although that said, it's still anyone's guess, so it's not so obvious.

Previews are always positive when it comes to Sonic games, haven't we already learned?

At the same time though, you could have the option to either homing attack enemies across a gap to a high area or drop down said gap for a different route. Also as I said I think it keeps the flow going without having to slow down and steer your jump. So long as it doesn't make the game too easy.

As I said, surely there are other ways of doing the same thing that are far more creative, doesn't potentially compromise the difficulty, and isn't a blatant crutch.

But yeah, I kinda agree with ChaosSupreme, the homing attack can be a challenge when done right - enemies with electric fields or retracting spikes can be far more dangerous when you have a homing ability, and the challenge can be in judging whether to execute the attack or to let Sonic fall, your timing as a result could land Sonic in different areas.

Possibly, but the last time they tried that was in Unleashed, and those were fucking annoying. Once again, can't they just replace it with something more creative?

Sorry for potentially derailing the topic, but I have serious issues with the homing attack in general, if you haven't already noticed.

Actually, can we just make another topic for this argument, or end it here? I don't want to derail this topic any further.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Masaru Daimon

[DistantJ]

As I said, surely there are other ways of doing the same thing that are far more creative, doesn't potentially compromise the difficulty, and isn't a blatant crutch.

Well firstly, that's just an opinion, and secondly, people seem to want this game to NOT be creative, I think that's the whole point in it... But you can always, you know, not use the homing attack. I like it personally. I like how it turns enemies into helping hands as well as obstacles, they seem nothing more than an annoyance in Sonic otherwise, I mean who ever died from enemies in a Sonic game, really? It was always the spikes and the pits. Different people are different...

Edited March 30, 2010 by DistantJ

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Then it'll be Sonic Heroes all over again. Everyone hated it when enemies couldn't be destroyed in one hit and actually fought back in that game.

But that wasn't because the enemies could fight back, it was because the enemies had a health bar that was too lengthy on each foe and the sheer number of them at one given area slowed the game down when each enemy took around 6 hits or more to kill.

In the leaked footage, the guy playing the game spammed it, taking out a badnik, and then used it several times in mid-air against a wall before he even touched the ground. If anything, I think it might be even cheaper than in the 3D games so far.

Well we'll have to wait and see on that, because as I said before, it's still anyone's guess. The guy playing it might have a different experience with it than anyone else.

Plus, even if the HA is spammable, for all we know it could still add to the experience. Badniks in the Classic games never really put up much of a fight anyway, so they were already stepping stones as they were. The only caution they had was for you to lose your rings if you were not in your ball form, whereas most of the actual threats came from the environment or from boss battles.

You don't go changing around an entire game just to accomodate one move for the sake of balance. If that's the only option, it speaks volumes on how broken the homing attack is. It's especially jarring as it's a classic-styled game.

And where exactly did I say or imply that you had to change the entire game in order to balance one single move? You're really exaggerating my words over a move that was supposedly never around during the classics. You could add in some defensive aspect to the foes so that the move isn't as spammable, or you could keep the speed from being focused on too much (because really the Classics weren't all that focused on speed anyway), or use it as a more close range move instead of one that can be taken advatage at logner ranges.

And arguably, the Flame Shield attack in Sonic 3 & Knuckles could be considered the HA's precursor, since it required the same button inputs as the HA, and should the enemy just so happen to be directly in range of it the player could zero in on the foe and it would be taken out. The only difference in case of the HA is that you can perform the move multiple times, and if the level design can warrant it, it can allow Sonic better vertical exploration than he did in the Classics, because even with the shields to give him some value in S3&K he was still the most limited character in the game.

The doging thing would be harder to do since it seems you can pull off multiple homing attacks in mid-air now, I already mentioned that Sonic enemies that fight back are generally disliked (outside of Sonic Heroes, that bloody mantis, for starters), and while a defense is generally a good idea, I've only seen it with one enemy in Casino Night Zone in the classics.

But if the enemy can see it coming the moment you get within a certain space, they can dodge at the last second, making it harder for you to connect the move against the smarter foe. They could teleport, sidestep, deflect, absorb, jump, I could go on with the list.

And regardless if there was only one enemy with a defensive measure in Casino Night Zone (and the Firefly enemy in Mystic Cave, Unidus in Launch Base, Orbinaut in Labyrinth Zone, Bubbles in Marble Garden Zone.) That doesn't mean they can't do it in this game. This is 2010, even if this is a Classic Styled game, they can do so much more than they did in the past to make things from being so cheap, provided that they actually do them. And from what other outlets seem to make out of it, they seem to do some of that.

That additional strategy might've been done even if the need to accomodate the homing attack wasn't there, really. I still say it's kind a rehash, though.

So we're bringing out the "rehash" card on this? We don't even have all the info to get an accurate judge on all of it yet. And the one image that we do have of the first boss battle already hints that it is going to be more than just a rehash.

Previews are always positive when it comes to Sonic games, haven't we already learned?

Not in recent times. They've been more negative ever since Sonic 06.

Possibly, but the last time they tried that was in Unleashed, and those were fucking annoying. Once again, can't they just replace it with something more creative?

They've actually been doing that since Adventure 1, and even Sonic 3 & Knuckles if the Flame Shield and the Bubbles badnik is anything to go by.

Edited March 30, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

I've accepted the homing attack for this game, but I think saying it's as optional as "don't use it" doesn't satisfy people. It's been necessary for nearly every game it's appeared in outside the handhelds and we have a good amount of proof that you'll be using it to get to other parts of the level. It's like saying "don't use the items in ASR if you don't like them" - the game was built around it. Anyways, about what CSS said. Some people have been saying the boss will be hard to homing, like it makes it less important. It's likely you'll need the homing attack to hit him if he's swinging his ball around like that. I think that's a good thing though, because it's a new creative use of an old move. Any 2D gimmick they can make compatible with this thing to give it a purpose is a kind of classic style.

[thesketchsector]

Sonic 4'll most likely rule.

Everyone who thinks otherwise without legitimate reason can get over it.

[Tornado]

But that wasn't because the enemies could fight back, it was because the enemies had a health bar that was too lengthy on each foe and the sheer number of them at one given area slowed the game down when each enemy took around 6 hits or more to kill.

There were enemies in Heroes that fought back as well as the ones who had the obnoxious health bars.

And arguably, the Flame Shield attack in Sonic 3 & Knuckles could be considered the HA's precursor, since it required the same button inputs as the HA, and should the enemy just so happen to be directly in range of it the player could zero in on the foe and it would be taken out.

Which isn't actually how the homing attack works, which is why the completely-manual Flame attack was more useful for instant speed than it ever really was against enemies.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There were enemies in Heroes that fought back as well as the ones who had the obnoxious health bars.

All of them generally fought back, but that wasn't really the problem. The more troubling issue was that the health bar was set where even the weakest enemy took around 6 hits up to 30 max in order to kill, and that the sheer number of those enemies with those large health bars impeded the game than adding on to it. You can work around the enemies targeting you, but killing several of those enemies was a pain unless you leveled up or used the strength formation and even more so when they start swarming you as you progress.

Which isn't actually how the homing attack works, which is why the completely-manual Flame attack was more useful for instant speed than it ever really was against enemies.

I'm already aware of the differences, but that doesn't prevent the Homing Attack and the Flame attack from sharing similarities that put a large dent in the claim that the Homing Attack doesn't belong in 2D games:

They can both be used as an attack, they can both be used to accelerate, and they can both be used to get across gaps. The main difference is that the Flame shield is more defensive and speed-based, while the HA is more offensive based in targeting foes and used to get across larger gaps by chain attacking enemies.

Edited March 30, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rusty Spy]

Well, the major crutch in the Flame Shield's attack is that Sonic doesn't bounce off of enemies when he hits them with it. So yeah, it's more of a defensive move than anything. Just throwing that out there. =P

[Tornado]

All of them generally fought back, but that wasn't really the problem.

Not having played Heroes in a good while, as I recall half of enemies in Casino Park were those "random spike-growing" flying things. I'm not sure where I am going with this, but just putting that out there.

I'm already aware of the differences, but that doesn't prevent the Homing Attack and the Flame attack from sharing similarities that put a large dent in the claim that the Homing Attack doesn't belong in 2D games:

Pretty much the only similarity is how they can both be used as an instant speed boost. The differences are why the Flame Shield doesn't prove or disprove anything regarding how much Homing Attack belongs in 2D games. For starters, the flame shield was a temporary power up, meaning it couldn't be relied on as a crutch for the player outside of specific circumstances (namely, when you had it); and even then its usability was extremely compromised by the fact that the only thing it did was charge in the direction you were facing, and how there were entire levels in Sonic 3 where it couldn't be used at all.

On the other hand, Homing Attack is (barring Sonic 3D Blast) a permanent ability with drastically increased comparative functionality, and it can be used at any time that the player can jump. They are too different to even be compared.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Tornado

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Not having played Heroes in a good while, as I recall half of enemies in Casino Park were those "random spike-growing" flying things. I'm not sure where I am going with this, but just putting that out there.

I recall them being in Frog Forest.

For starters, the flame shield was a temporary power up, meaning it couldn't be relied on as a crutch for the player outside of specific circumstances (namely, when you had it); and even then its usability was extremely compromised by the fact that the only thing it did was charge in the direction you were facing and how there were entire levels in Sonic 3 where it couldn't be used at all.

On the other hand, Homing Attack is (barring Sonic 3D Blast) a permanent ability with drastically increased comparative functionality, and it can be used at any time that the player can jump.

Okay, but how exactly do those factors prevent the flame shield from sharing the other traits as the Homing Attack in being used as an attack and as a means to get across gaps?

The flame attack may not have had a homing feature into it, but that still didn't prevent it from being used as an attack on the badniks in the levels where the shield was avaiable despite it going only in the direction you're facing. And I guess it being used to cross gaps would be shared with it being a speed boost.

[Tornado]

Okay, but how exactly do those factors prevent the flame shield from sharing the other traits as the Homing Attack in being used as an attack and as a means to get across gaps?

Because it wasn't particularly practical to actually use the fire shield to attack enemies (which the homing attack is inherently the exact opposite of), with a few exceptions; and it wasn't really needed in order to cross gaps at all (because the momentum physics took care of that for you), again with a few very rare exceptions.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Because it wasn't particularly practical to actually use the fire shield to attack enemies (which the homing attack is inherently the exact opposite of), with a few exceptions; and it wasn't really needed in order to cross gaps at all (because the momentum physics took care of that for you), again with a few very rare exceptions.

Just out of curiosity, what would those exceptions be? I know one would be to use to attack an Ice Unidus (I forgot the name), but even so, the flame shield still comes off as a precursor to the homing attack based off their general properties aside from the whole defensive and offensive differences they posses.

[NiGHTS]

Yes, people on some other Sonic forums are starting to complain about the fact that Sonic's eyelids are blue, not peach like his skin. That's even worse than the green eyes complaints. Jesus Christ.

This tells me that people on the internet got nothing to do but look for anything to complain about! Whats next? Classic Sonic didn't have the belt buckle on his shoe in the old games now he does? Is that gonna make the game bad? NO! Lets take Mario for example. Classic Vs Modern.

Whats the difference? Oh, look at his gloves! The old games he looks like he didnt have gloves or at least white gloves! Does that make the modern 2d Mario games bad? No it doesnt!

Oh look, his classic boots were black back in, now its brown. No one cares really what he looked like back then to now. For Sonic it shouldn't matter. Green eyes or not. Give the classic Sonic look a break, he isnt coming back. Just enjoy and be happy Sega is making and trying to make a 2d good Sonic game. Until the game comes out, no one can know for sure if the game sucks or not. Expecally if the Sonic look will affect the game. Cause honestly, it doesn't bother me how he looks.

[Tornado]

Just out of curiosity, what would those exceptions be? I know one would be to use to attack an Ice Unidus (I forgot the name),

Stuff that shoots projectiles, mainly. Which technically makes the bubbleshield and/or lightning shield safer anyways, because there is less chance of hitting the ground before you hit the enemy with those.

As far as gaps go, the only ones that are springing to mind are some of the ones in Mushroom Hill, and even then only if you screw up the path leading up to the gap. There may very well be more, but I can't think of them.

but even so, the flame shield still comes off as a precursor to the homing attack based off their general properties aside from the whole defensive and offensive differences they posses.

When you hit enemies the reaction is completely different as well.

Whats the difference? Oh, look at his gloves! The old games he looks like he didnt have gloves or at least white gloves! Does that make the modern 2d Mario games bad? No it doesnt!

Not to be obnoxious or lend any credibility to the argument, but Classic Mario became pretty much identical Modern Mario in general design all the way back in 1988, and it was pretty damn close 2 years before that. The situations really can't be compared.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Tornado

[NiGHTS]

1981- 1988. thats how many years? 7?

When was Sonic Modernized? 91 to around 99 some where? thats actually less then 8 years then Mario. So I dont see why you think its not important. Mario had his classic look longer then Sonics.

[MrROBOTO1988]

Not to be obnoxious or lend any credibility to the argument, but Classic Mario became pretty much identical Modern Mario in general design all the way back in 1988, and it was pretty damn close 2 years before that. The situations really can't be compared.

I believe Miss Rose's point is to say that the complaints about simple things like eye color and the like are really incredibly trivial complaints. Even though I like his modern look, I can understand how his long quills can not be the true Sonic to some people. However, pretty much everything else is very trivial, and I'm pretty sure that's her point.

[Solid SOAP]

Mario changed a decent bit from Super Mario Bros. 3 to, say, Galaxy, in my opinion. Just about as much as Sonic did, perhaps a bit less.

Longer legs, longer arms, smaller head, smaller eyes, rounder body, more realistic features in general, etc. Seems to be about the same amount as Sonic has, in my opinion. All very trivial shit that I don't give a fuck about, because Super Mario Galaxy was a goddamn glorious game.

[NiGHTS]

Mario changed a decent bit from Super Mario Bros. 3 to, say, Galaxy, in my opinion. Just about as much as Sonic did, perhaps a bit less.

Longer legs, longer arms, smaller head, smaller eyes, rounder body, more realistic features in general, etc. Seems to be about the same amount as Sonic has, in my opinion. All very trivial shit that I don't give a fuck about, because Super Mario Galaxy was a goddamn glorious game.

My point exactly. And not just Super Mario Brothers 3 but even to the Donkey Kong from 1980. He looked even more different, and hell he was called Jump Man!! Yet no one gives a care in the world. You know why? Cause Mario had great games. Regardless, when anytime I talk about Sonic on the internet, its mostly about how Sonic looks. Like his eyes or something like how a bumper looked in the game. It really doesnt matter! Even Peach had different hair colors in the NES games, now shes a blonde.

[Tornado]

I believe Miss Rose's point is to say that the complaints about simple things like eye color and the like are really incredibly trivial complaints. Even though I like his modern look, I can understand how his long quills can not be the true Sonic to some people. However, pretty much everything else is very trivial, and I'm pretty sure that's her point.

I understand that, but you can't use the Mario series as a comparison to paint Sonic fans as fickle because there have only ever been two games in the entire series that didn't use the current design.

1981- 1988. thats how many years? 7?

No. The Mario design of today is nearly identical to the Mario design of Super Mario Bros 2. That's 1981 to 1986. Which is only 5 years. During that time there were only 4 games released with the character, two of which aren't even Mario games to begin with, and each of which had a different character design anyways.

So I dont see why you think its not important. Mario had his classic look longer then Sonics.

Because one had multiple character designs over the course of 5 years and 4 games, and was replaced with one design that has proceeded to be used with rather minor changes for a longer amount of time than the Sonic series has even existed. The other series had a single design that was used for 8 years and several dozen games (and is still occasionally used today), and only then was replaced.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Tornado