Is games Amy even a good character?

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I do not agree here. She's been on several full-scale adventures with Sonic and the gang as an active combatant. While SA1 mostly has her running away from danger (sans the fight at the end where she steps up and beats Zero), the entire Advance trilogy shows her as a capable platforming hero in her own right. Heroes and 06 follow suit by giving her playable roles as well.

While it's true that her playable prominence dropped after this, I mean... it kinda dropped across the board for everybody, as the series went hard into the "Sonic only" era for most games. But prior to that, Amy was being treated as one of the big main supporting heroes, on par with Tails and Knuckles.

So it's understandable that Amy fans might feel a little miffed at what they lost since then. Amy was an active adventurer like Sonic for the better part of the 00s, and then she just wasn't anymore. I get how that'd be frustrating.

I personally never cared for Amy as an active combatant. Good for her fans, but personally Amy's best moments are when she manages to get through to normally closed off characters through her charisma. I get that this is a platforming series, so everyone needs to roughly play the same for the sake consistency, but Amy playing exactly like Sonic never appealed to me. 

And I'm strictly talking about her narrative use here, not her gameplay one. After Sonic Heroes is when they really started to play up her obsession with Sonic and that went on until roughly 2008, afterwards she more or less became as stagnant as everyone else. Hence why I said people focus on her negatives more, because that was the last time really had any kind of impact in this series. 

[Wraith]

I liked playing as Amy in SA1 but I don't feel like we lost much on the whole. I like playing as her in spinoffs, but I think Amy works best in her original role as a narrative foil to the abrasiveness of the other characters. If Sega wants a female action hero that's less awkward to implement into the standard gameplay, they should make one.

[Scritch the Cat]

I feel there’s virtually no future for a playable version of Amy akin to what was in Sonic Adventure.  Possibly there never was.  I don’t outright dislike that part of the game but it’s rendered relatively unremarkable by that game’s standard approach to any gameplay that isn’t Sonic’s; explore alternate styles of gameplay but make them easy and short so nobody resents them too much.  

I can say for sure that this is far preferable to infamous shit like Battletoads being nearly impossible due to one little level that plays nothing like the rest of the game but is much harder, and I do think there is some narrative merit in designing gameplay that reinforces that there are beings in Sonic’s world that don’t move the way he does.  But for the plot and gameplay style they gave Amy, that dooms it making much impression.  Amy’s story in that game runs with the theme that she’s weak and thus has to outrun and outwit a pursuer in a Survival Horror-lite mode, so even a small victory feels monumental, but it isn’t long before you realize that Zero isn’t actually much of a threat at all.  You practically have to try to be caught by him.  Making Zero more genuinely difficult to escape might have made Amy’s gameplay a lot more exciting for what it was and getting through to the goal might thus have been made more satisfying, but then you’d run the risk of annoying people who love Sonic games suddenly not being willing or able to pass that one because so much of it didn’t play on their familiar skill set.

Also that campaign ended with Amy managing to defeat Zero and at least somewhat entailed her resolving to get tougher.  So if any future gameplay style just threw another thing in that she was just supposed to outrun again, it would feel very contrived.

Finally, while there’s nothing innately wrong with a Sonic character of low physical abilities, there’s also nothing innately justifying Amy staying permanently so far behind the other hedgehogs in the series.

[Wraith]

I actually think Amy's campaign is a highlight in Sonic Adventure because it's a wholey original idea that the developers committed to designing around. Tails and Knuckles just being given broken movement abilities and being sent to tear Sonic's already flimsy level design wide open feels a bit...quarter assed. Amy's campaign has a lot of problems of it's own but whenever I replay the game I'm always happy with how much they put into it.

 

16 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Also that campaign ended with Amy managing to defeat Zero and at least somewhat entailed her resolving to get tougher.  So if any future gameplay style just threw another thing in that she was just supposed to outrun again, it would feel very contrived.

Finally, while there’s nothing innately wrong with a Sonic character of low physical abilities, there’s also nothing innately justifying Amy staying permanently so far behind the other hedgehogs in the series.

I don't see why that sort of thing needs a justification. Amy is a civilian who lives a normal life in the city. She doesn't have Sonic's powers and isn't fighting supervillains every week like him. Her being a little under-qualified is to be expected.
 

[Kuzu]

I feel like there's a bit of dissonance when it comes to how Amy is generally portrayed and how fans interpret the character. Someone mentioned this earlier in the thread, but she's essentially a Shonen Jump Heroine.....with everything that implies. Or in other words, she mostly exists to look cute and fawn over the MC, at worst. And because of that, she tends to be overlooked by the writers a lot. 

The dissonance comes where obviously American audiences prefer female leads to be more self-sufficient and capable of hanging with the boys. Hence why Amy tends rub some people the wrong way, combine that with how most of the demographic of Sonic are adolescents boys who are likely predisposed to liking "cool" things, and probably hate pink. 

You can see it in the Comics too where Amy is a frontline fighter and generally regarded as part of the group. Whereas in like...Sonic X or Sonic Adventure 2, literally has her as a joke more often than not, and when the going gets tough, she's shunted to the  side while the boys take care of business. Stuff like Sonic Heroes literally make her Team specifically, the easy mode meant for babies.

 

I'm not going to say one is inherently better than the other, cuz its all preference. But with that in mind, it shouldn't come as a surprise writers tend to struggle what to do with her when she was never really meant to standout under her original conception. But since she's grown more popular over the years, she's kind of....locked in a position she kind of isn't qualified for. 

[GOAT]

Yes... At least I think so especially the Sonic Adventure era. She was easy to root for and I liked her story tbh. Also, the Piko Piko hammer son, you better watch yo head.

[Rienasketch]

On 8/18/2022 at 10:08 AM, Dr. Mechano said:

Sally isn't from the games (except Spinnall) though.

Like, it's fine if you prefer her but she's relegated solely to a cartoon, a comic, and a brief cameo in Spinball that doesn't imply anything about her and Sonic's relationship.

Sally is undeniably important to SatAM Sonic and Archie Sonic. To game Sonic, Sally is basically a non-entity. She's a random person he rescued from the Veg-O-Fortress and likely never interacted with ever again.

Honestly, it's difficult to imagine game Sonic seriously dating or settling down with anybody. He comes off as far more aloof and carefree than his early spinoff counterparts, and has never really expressed serious romantic interest in anyone over the games' 30 years - the implication that he and Amy were dating in Black Knight notwithstanding as a weird outlier that felt kind of out-of-nowhere even back then.

I also don't think the supposed consistency in Sally's portrayals (I say supposed because she was pretty all over the place over Archie's long run) reflects anything inherent to her character. Amy could be written more consistently. Most of the Game characters could. Inconsistency is just a problem across the board with this franchise.

Thats not the point.

Just because Sally isn't in the games doesnt change the fact she has certain strengths on a narrative, conceptual level that Amy lacks.  While there were some technicalities in consistency that went with Sally here and there, Overall, we "still"  knew how she was supposed to be a foil for Sonic and "how" she was supposed to act that way. Even if we didn't like it, even if we want to argue it needed to be downplayed. Amy meanwhile has a weak premise and SEGA doesn't even know what to do with her or how to even portray her on a basic level. And that was before the writing quality took a dip, which resulted in her acting radically different every other game. So until they can show me otherwise, I just.. don't feel she deserves to be the female lead. No, that doesn't mean I want some character like Sally to barge in and take her spot just because I make comparisons here and there. I'm not even saying I don't want to see Amy anymore. I'm just saying, she's not really doing much with the position.

 

On 8/18/2022 at 9:22 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

I do not agree here. She's been on several full-scale adventures with Sonic and the gang as an active combatant. While SA1 mostly has her running away from danger (sans the fight at the end where she steps up and beats Zero), the entire Advance trilogy shows her as a capable platforming hero in her own right. Heroes and 06 follow suit by giving her playable roles as well.

 

SA1 could have went exactly the way it did without Amy Rose, so I don't really see how that was necessary to justify her in the games. Same with Heroes.  I'm not saying Amy never contributed anything, but what she does is sparse, and doesn't make her feel lead female material. She feels like a minor character who comes in every now and again, and is only the lead female because SEGA says so.

 

 

[Dr. Mechano]

57 minutes ago, Rienasketch said:

She feels like a minor character who comes in every now and again, and is only the lead female because SEGA says so.

I don't think Sega has said anyone is the "lead female." They've never officially designated anyone as that role, after all. If there can be said to be a "female lead" in the series, I suppose Amy would be it by default, simply by virtue of being the girl who consistently shows up in the games. While most of the other women in the series are rotated in and out of the games and have far less consistent appearances.

She fills a different niche than that anyway. Amy is one of Sonic's main supporting friends, along with Tails and Knuckles. She's one of the major sidekicks. And even though it's been a while since she was utilized in that capacity, it's been a while since anyone who's not named Sonic has been. Even Tails himself has mostly been relegated to cutscenes and commentary instead of action over the past decade, Mania notwithstanding.

I believe that if Sega breaks away from the "Sonic only" philosophy, then we'll start to see Amy (and others) in more prominent roles again. 

[Wraith]

I'm not even sure why Sally and Amy are directly compared beyond both being women and shipping wars. They play two different roles in Sonic's circle that don't overlap in the slightest. Amy is his biggest fan while Sally is designed more to be a foil that is more of aware of his negative tendencies and keeps him grounded. Since neither of them will ever be with Sonic, they overlap less than some of the official Sonic cast does.

 

[Kuzu]

Shipping wars is all it really boils down to, yea.

[Rienasketch]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

I'm not even sure why Sally and Amy are directly compared beyond both being women and shipping wars. They play two different roles in Sonic's circle that don't overlap in the slightest. Amy is his biggest fan while Sally is designed more to be a foil that is more of aware of his negative tendencies and keeps him grounded. Since neither of them will ever be with Sonic, they overlap less than some of the official Sonic cast does.

 

I think there's more to it than that. They both have the same role as female lead and love interest, so naturally they're going to be compared with one another both in what they've accomplished and what they lack. The problem I have with Sally and Amy in general is that they're opposite extremes of each other. One had too much prescience to the story to the point it overshadowed other characters, and created melodrama that took more than it added. But because this is an Amy thread I felt it was important to look at the problems that rose from Amy being the opposite extreme of Sally: The fact Amy's prescience  and what she offers is far too small.

 

9 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I don't think Sega has said anyone is the "lead female." They've never officially designated anyone as that role, after all. If there can be said to be a "female lead" in the series, I suppose Amy would be it by default, simply by virtue of being the girl who consistently shows up in the games. While most of the other women in the series are rotated in and out of the games and have far less consistent appearances.

She fills a different niche than that anyway. Amy is one of Sonic's main supporting friends, along with Tails and Knuckles. She's one of the major sidekicks. And even though it's been a while since she was utilized in that capacity, it's been a while since anyone who's not named Sonic has been. Even Tails himself has mostly been relegated to cutscenes and commentary instead of action over the past decade, Mania notwithstanding.

I believe that if Sega breaks away from the "Sonic only" philosophy, then we'll start to see Amy (and others) in more prominent roles again. 

 

Its pretty much semantics. Regardless of whether or not they physically say something, like Shadow or Knuckles being Sonic's rivals, or Amy being the female lead, you know thats what their intentions are. Its essentially undisputed by the fandom at this point, Amy IS the intended female lead from SEGA. whether people like that fact or not.

I'm also not really seeing how she fills much in the way of a niche outside being "the girl" character. Because even if you want to argue she's a sidekick, unlike Tails she.. doesn't really do anything with that role either. At least Tails could move the plot along with his own abilities and skillsets. A lot of the time Amy was just being kidnapped Or was playable and didn't offer much of substance to the story.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Shipping wars is all it really boils down to, yea.

 

I don't think thats entirely true. Some people who were indifferent to shipping or disliked it had their own opinions on the matter too. Some fans may like Amy simply because she doesn't overshadow others like Tails or other game characters. Even if they dont care about shipping her with Sonic. One of the common complaints I saw with Sally was that she was a "scene stealer" or "Mary-Sue" who had to take from others' opportunity to contribute to Sonic -- an argument that wasn't simply just limited to Amy/SonAmy's fans.

However, on the flip I can also understand the resentment Sally's fans have. When you look at what Sally was able to accomplish in her short run, Amy does in some ways feel like a downgrade. They went from having a character with a strong lore to the story, and offered something concrete to Sonic personality wise.. to a fangirl who barely contributes anything of substance. This hits especially hard since a lot of Sally's fans are typically part of feminist movements, and they see Amy as the antithesis of that.

So while I think shipping does play a role, I think we have to additionally look outside that. As well as look at the fact that both their roles are tied too shipping/ship-teasing, so that there's going to understandably be some overlap in those areas.

 

[Kuzu]

They play entirely different roles within the medium they are in. The only thing they have in common is being female characters with  romantic feelings towards the main characters. There's literally no overlap between them otherwise because the settings are completely different.

Even when they shared the same space, there wasn't much overlap. Amy got much less focus in Archie but that's because she came much later into the series while Sally was already an established character.

 

I've seen these stupid debates for 20 years now, and yes, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that it comes down to shipping. Like the opening post to this topic literally does not mention Sally at all and yet, here we are talking about her as if she's relevant to who Amy is.

Different characters with entirely different functions and roles within the narrative, and the only part people care about is who does Sonic love more, come on. I've been through this rodeo before.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 hours ago, Rienasketch said:

I don't think thats entirely true. Some people who were indifferent to shipping or disliked it had their own opinions on the matter too. Some fans may like Amy simply because she doesn't overshadow others like Tails or other game characters. Even if they dont care about shipping her with Sonic. One of the common complaints I saw with Sally was that she was a "scene stealer" or "Mary-Sue" who had to take from others' opportunity to contribute to Sonic -- an argument that wasn't simply just limited to Amy/SonAmy's fans.

Those “complaints” come from those who use “Mary Sue” to mean “This character I don’t like is getting attention I want a character I do like to have,” and they’ve thrown that accusation even to characters like Shadow back decades ago, and heck, even Sonic earned that scorn if only because of the Sonic-solo direction literally forcing him to do almost everything on his own. An actual Mary Sue is perfect to the point of unrealistic as a character, which is so easy to throw an accusation at that it’s lost much of it’s value as a term.

Best to treat it for what it really is: Envy. I wouldn’t even say Amy got less attention in Archie because she gained far more than people realized even before the Reboot. So these complaints just sounds like typical whining that usually occurs—people will complain about any character they don’t like gaining something of value.

Probably only adds to the shipping wars too.

[The-Aman20]

Amy's actually always had a lot of potential. She's someone who can screw the cast's heads back on when needed and is a compassionate character who can neutralise a situation. Aside from the sonic fangirl thing, she can be a very fun character with unique interactions.