Dr. Strangehog, or How I Learned to Stop Being Cynical and Just Enjoy Sonic Games (aka The Cynicism Topic)

[Kuzu]

Losing Pontac and Graff means we lose their Eggman; I don't think I can handle that yet.

[FriendBot]

With it all laid out right there, it's really not hard to see why we, as a forum and as a fanbase, are for the most part quite cynical. Those are the general statements. So I guess here are the personal questions:

 

Do you think this is deserved?

 

How much faith do you have in Sonic right now?

 

Do you agree with the cynicism, and if so, what would it really take to restore your faith?

 

Would it just take a good game on the level of Generations - polished, pretty, well-designed, and fun, but ultimately safe - or do you need something more ambitious and grand to reignite your interest?

 

Do you think that the supposedly well-received games like Colors and Generations were ultimately part of the problem in and of themselves, or that they simply weren't enough? Or do you think they marked a renaissance and that what came afterwards didn't negate it?

 

Is there anything specific you want from the series that you think you will get at some point in the future?

 

Did you, perhaps, enjoy Lost World and/or Rise of Lyric, and therefore very little of this applies to you at all?

 

I guess what it all boils down to is: Do you think the cynicism is justified (wholly or partially) or not, and why?

 

While I am still fairly optimistic about the series, I can agree that the massive amounts of criticism is well-deserved. Though I feel that some of the criticism comes off as nonsensical bashing of the games but most people do have pretty valid reasons why the recent games aren't too great.

 

As I said before, I still have pretty high hopes for the series but that's probably because I don't share the mass amount of dissapointment most members here have but even then, I haven't lost ALL faith in the series. Though Lost World and Rise of Lyric were a bit underwhelming for me and were not great games, especially Rise of Lyric.

 

I agree with some of the cynicism but I feel that some are a bit too cynical and aren't really all that constructive and again, just give me a good game with overall good everything and I'm fine but if they are a bit lacking in some aspects but overall has more hits than misses, I can still enjoy it.

 

I can enjoy a good game that's fairly safe and I'm sure most people can agree with that but if the series want to be back at a pedestal, it has to be grand and very ambitous like Sonic Unleashed.

 

I'm going to go with the latter, Colors and Generations are good games but due to the fact, they were playing it pretty safe, Sonic Team couldn't go all out with it. Also there's my personal issues with these 2 games as well, Colors, while a good game, isn't a good Sonic game. Very slow-paced and traditional platforming, a story that could be very fun to watch is filled with pretty crummy jokes, a very floaty double jump that can be troublesome in some segments and etc. Generations has probably one of the worst stories in the series because of how painfully basic and dull it was, it was very dissapointing. The game also lacks any worthwhile content and just feels incredibily underwhelming.

 

There are some aspects I think that will happen eventually once Sonic Team finds a playstyle that's flexible and fun (which the Boost lacks the former). Once they do find that playstyle, I can expect multiple characters, a better written story and the obvious things the series rarely fails, great visuals and music! In the meantime, I can be satisfied with the Archie comics and the Boom TV show until then.

 

I did enjoy both, Lost World and Rise of Lyric actually. People might probably might laugh at me for saying this but I'll honest with myself, despite knowing that RoL was a bad game, it was pretty fun to play especially when you play it with co-op! The combat in that game was fairly diverse though the Werehog had much more moves but it's FAR MUCH better than 06's pitiful and dull excuse for combat. Lost World U is a game that I can't see myself enjoy but I don't really hate it either, I just don't find myself liking the game a whole lot. It really does suffer due to the massive amounts of experimentation and lacks very little sense of direction of what it wants to be. Heck, I found the 3DS version better than the U version but then again, another laughable unpopular opnion. Guess I'm full of it. :/

 

Overall, the series is a shadow of its former self but I still don't think it's as bad as some people are making it out to be. And I also very much agree with the complaints of the series but I just wish some people can be a bit more constructive with their complaints instead of nonsensically whine about how the latest game sucks ass and there's nothing worthwhile when it there is something worthwhile to it. Again, just saying my thoughts out loud.

[Sami]

I HOPE Y'ALL LIKE PICTURES

 

The Sonic I actually enjoy passionately enough to talk about excitedly has been dead for well over a decade now, so I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to feel other than cynicism. My two favorite games in the series by far are Sonic 3 and Sonic Adventure - games that practically go hand in hand with each other since the latter's core design revolves almost entirely around expanding upon what gave the former its identity. 
 
I love having memorable hub worlds that flesh out and ground the world Sonic lives in,

 

I love having multiple playable characters that are all treated as individuals and are all more than capable of solving their own problems by themselves,

 

I love having engaging stories that introduce new elements to the series lore and try their best to provide some twists and turns beyond "Sonic beats up the robots and makes fart jokes",

 

I love the flashy pomp vibe those games had,

 

I love the effort taken into looking truly visually impressive,

 

and so on and so on and so on.
 
On the flip side. 
 
I hate world maps.
 

 
 
I hate weird floating obstacle courses in the sky.
 

 
 
I hate weird dumb gamey shit taking me out of the experience, padding the game, stopping me from going to the next real level all while shouting "BEEP BOOP YOU ARE PLAYING A VIDEO GAME PLEASE PRESS X TO SELECT MENU"
 

 
 
I hate weird dumb gimmicks in the core mechanics that are just... weird, and dumb.
 

 
 
I hate weird dumb level gimmicks that are just really weird and dumb.
 

 
I hate stories that try to make me take them seriously at the climax when they've done literally nothing to earn it and have stupid shit like
 

 
I hate when Sonic Team sabotages what could have been good games with ideas about on par with a six year old playing Mad Libs.
 

 
I can go on.
 
And I mean, of course I can go on. There are literally only two mainline Sonic games I actually enjoy after SA1. Hell, there are only four in total I actually enjoy after SA1. Rush (and before anyone tries to grill me on this - different expectations on handhelds), Colors, Generations, and Riders. 
 
Like, alright. People wanna be positive. Cool. You do you. Don't tell me how to feel though. Even if I completely ignore the decade of trash we got after SA1, that leaves a handful of games that are good at best and garbage at worst. 
 
We have no idea what direction the series is going to take next, but the only indication we really have is what the last big Sonic Team game did. Lost World. Lost World isn't a Sonic game to me. It's just not. This new direction SEGA Sonic wants to take is a poor man's Mario expy wearing Sonic cosplay. That shit isn't Sonic.
 
Sonic 3 and SA1 are Sonic, and the only games we've gotten since then that tried to capture that again have both fallen flat on their faces. 

 

I'm cynical because I feel like Sonic Team doesn't even like Sonic at this point. They don't want to make Sonic games - they want to make Mario games. This current direction is turning Sonic into something he's not for me. It throws away all the conventions and identifiable traits that made me love Sonic. As someone who's really not a fan of Mario, it's aggravating beyond belief. 

 

Make a fucking Sonic game. 

[Kuzu]

I know some will call it "blind nostalgia", well no fucking shit its nostalgia. Its nostalgic because it was a point in the series where people felt it had its own identity instead of riding on the coattails of what's popular.

 

It feels like Sonic Team don't want to make Sonic games, they want to make games and slap Sonic's face on it and call it a Sonic game. Its not even like I feel the games are bad, they're fun and perfectly functional games and that is honestly what the series needed after putting out shovelware for years, but there is absolutely no excuse for games like Sonic Colors being considered the standard for this series in this day and age.

 

So now we're stuck with games that barely know what they want to be in terms of design and just feel like a haphazard compilation of generic platforming tropes that exist just because its a video game. No cohesion of narrative exists, but it sure does act like it does. Anything that made the series feel like..well, Sonic, no longer exist or have been severely downplayed. 

 

 

 

I don't wanna come off like I'm complaining, but I'm just honestly listing my real thoughts here; there's really nothing I care about these games that don't already exist in better games( liek Mario :V) and anything unique it could have, Sonic Team just don't want to try.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

You're my hero, Sami. Well-fucking-said. 

[Vertekins]

My sentiments are pretty much the same as Sami's.

 

I feel cynical about the Sonic series as it is today...specifically over the past five years... because it's lost so, so much of it's heart.

 

What do I mean by "heart"?

 

Basically what encapsulates Sonic to me as a series - An action-adventure-platformer series with awesome likeable characters who endeared themselves to me due to writing that handled them competently, contrasting gameplay styles that melded into the game design well and a world that had fantasy and realistic elements in balance.

 

But where has that sense of adventure and environmental scope gone? The places that gave me the impression that Sonic and his friends were part of a living world? They've all been replaced by lazy stage select screens like this;

 

 

Take a look at that act select.

 

Where is the sense of connection between areas of Starlight Carnival? All I see is a bunch of portals to various acts dumped into a select screen with no grace or substance to it in any real form.

 

Contrast to Sonic Adventure in which each act had it's own sensical entry area in it's respective adventure field and an established connection between each said adventure field i.e The train connecting Station Square with Mystic Ruin, the boat/wooden raft connecting Station Square/Mystic Ruin to the Egg Carrier. Characters had good reasons within their respective stories to enter action stages, making the stages themselves relevant.

 

That act select screen in Colours as well as it's various gimmicky acts between you and the generator looks completely half-assed by comparison. Even fucking Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles, a 21 year old game on the Mega Drive went one better than that by showing Sonic, Tails or Knuckles proceeding from one area of Angel Island to the next at the end of each act and each zone, giving off the full impression that these guys are making progress through Angel Island to get at the Death Egg and have purposeful reasons to go where they go. And it's even accomplished without speech establishing it.

 

Another issue is that Sonic's world as a setting has pretty much been forsaken over the past few years almost as if Sonic Team are adverse to the idea of actually making use of the environments that lended Sonic a sense of identity in favor of locations in outer space that come right the fuck outta nowhere and whatsmore have absolutely no scope or substance established about them. What is this "Lost Hex"? Why is it "lost"? Why does Tails express familiarity with it and that never get expanded upon? Why does the planet show signs of civilization and yet said civilization is never seen let alone explained? Why is it made out of hexagons and look as if much of it's "crust" is missing?

 

 

You never do find out because the narrative is more focused on irrelevant blabber, Tails acting like a whiny, self entitled brat and Sonic and the Deadly Six trash talking.

 

I'm not friggin' asking for elaboration of the likes seen in complex novels, all I'm asking for is basic freaking CONTEXT. Some extremely basic worldbuilding to lend the story's settings depth. You know, even the most basic of writing concepts.

 

Which leads me onto another subject...

 

The regression of the writing quality.

 

Now the series writing as it was pre-2010 wasn't exactly flawless by any definition but it showed big signs of improvement as time went by and it was blatantly obvious to me that by Black Knight, Sonic Team had writers who really knew how to write Sonic as a character well and who could give a genuine feel of...agency to the characters, realism, sympathy. Sonic game stories had actual themes, moralistic and symbolic. For example...

 

- SA had good messages of standing on your own two feet and garnering oneself self-confidence and the drive to improve oneself. It also shows the folly of greed. Knuckles' people lost practically everything because their chieftain was a warmongering douchebag who was hungry for power even though he was already at the top of the political food chain and his people were already supported well.

 

- SA2 despite it's dark tone (Which is overblown by it's detractors) still incorporated themes of rebellion against authority figures for the greater good i.e Sonic and co against GUN and the police, Shadow against Gerald's plan. It also had the theme regarding realizing ones true purpose and living up to it.

 

- Heroes exposited the value of teamwork.

 

- Rush got cross the idea that it's unwise to shoulder the burden of tremendous responsibility solely by yourself and to not reject help when it's offered to you.

 

- Battle showed how a person can be influenced positively and negatively by those around them i.e Emerl's character growth.

 

- '06...as terrible as it was written in general inarguably put-across the concept of loyalty to your friends and gave Silver an admittedly interesting moral dilemma - "Is killing one person to save the world really the right thing to do?"

 

- SatSR had themes regarding fighting fate, self-sacrifice and forgiveness

 

- Unleashed had a prevailing theme regarding the contrasting yet necessary concepts of light and dark, night and day, death and rebirth.

 

- SatBK had themes regarding to asserting ones own morality in regards to their actions and standing up for what you feel is right regardless of what other may think of you for doing so.

 

Have Sonic games since had stories that incorporated themes like that that enhanced the characters and story?

 

Uh...

 

No.

 

Not really.

 

Colours didn't have any meaningful themes and morals and certainly nothing we hadn't already seen before. Any chance for elaborating on such things were shafted sideways by the fixation on "jokes", characters standing in one spot and prattling on about mundane or annoying things.

 

Generations' story is practically non-existent and the cutscenes that are there are once again dominated by prattle instead of anything even remotely interesting.

 

Lost World tries this whole "tragedy of impulsiveness" with Sonic and tries so very, very hard to make Tails this poor little disregarded lamb and it crashes and burns horrifically with both due to bad execution. What bothers me about Lost World's attempt at a message is that it's so contradictory - Pontac went on record to say that "One mistake doesn’t make someone an idiot. It’s how they DEAL with the mistake that makes them a hero."

 

Am I missing something with Sonic here then? Because I'm pretty sure that going for not only that Conch but also that trap capsule when Tails told him to lay off both of them perfectly audibly comes off as pretty idiotic to me. Not only that but we hear Sonic himself merely say that "It bites" when he asserts how he put the world in danger due to his stupidity. That doesn't come off to me as heroically dealing with your own mistake. That's just self-deprecation.

 

Or is it a reference to the bullshit that Sonic was in the wrong when it came to "doubting" Tails (...which he never did anyway) hence that was the "mistake" Pontac is referencing?

 

Or could this be in reference to Tails in that Crabmeat-Cubot cutscene in which he makes a mistake but doesn't deal with it heroically and instead just plumbs for pity?

 

I could write quite a few pragraphs to explain why that whole slant with Sonic and with Tails was executed in what was probably the worst possible way but I'll just state that it failed pretty much completely.

 

Sonic game stories today just don't have that "oomph" that previous games had in regards to their content and messages.

 

Sonic today is a shadow of his former self.

 

The guy who did things as hardcore as escaping captivity by jumping out of a helicopter thousands of feet in the sky and then making it back down to terra firma with just a part of said aircraft's wing, flashing that trademark grin as he does so with not a care in the world;

 

 

 

Who decimated hordes of robots onboard Eggman's mothership and tore through his fleet like a hot knife through butter;

 

 

Who stated outright that he wasn't going to stand there and tolerate Merlina's expressing of her own sorrow at the future of her world and her disregard for everyone else in her efforts to escape that one-sided sadness, who vocally and physically expressed his opposition to her intention to create hell for the Grand Kingdom's people to escape fate. Who was told it was futile to resist yet still went at it anyway;

 

https://youtu.be/qra_prvwKIQ?t=31m41s

 

Who plopped his blue ass down on Erazor's throne as if he owned the entire damn palace even after he was told he'd never have his wishes granted and then started bossing the dude around anyway, treating him like he was his bitch and then having the balls to condemn him for eternity to his lamp and then dispose of him for good measure;

 

https://youtu.be/SgAWL-qNPOw?t=39m7s

 

Where the hell did that Sonic go!? A character so awesome, so impactful, so badass? Whose attitude was conveyed in such a cool and characteristic way?

 

Sadly, he's been replaced by some arrogant jackass jock who hardly ever shuts the fuck up about how "awesome" he is instead of, you know, actually showing it like he does in those instances above. And he fails at it, making him come off as try hard and irritating. In those above examples, did Sonic ever need to go on and on about how he's going to kick arse? About how he wasn't sure he was going to pull it off in those instances shown above even jokingly? No! Because his actions spoke enough for him! That is one of the things what gave Sonic his impact as a character - He walked the walk but talked the talk when it was necessary. He had a veritable shitload of self-confidence in what he did and pulled off what he did with deftness and style.

 

Pontac and Graff have practically no grasp of this. Instead, they've molded him into this obnoxious twat who's all prattle this and prattle that and as a result he hardly ever has room to branch-out with his...."deeper" traits such as his interesting outlook on heroism and morality and such. Gone is the Hedgehog's quirks and much of his likeability. Much of what endeared me to him personally has been thrown out the window in favor of a vastly inferior, vastly less interesting interpretation that simply doesn't do the character justice.

 

Now don't get me wrong here. I do think Sonic should be allowed to trash talk. He is a cheeky little shit at heart filled with irreverance and some level of arrogance and showboating has always been a part of Sonic's character. Problem is that nowadays it consumes him, leaves little room for other aspects of the characters personality to show themselves, traits that make Sonic so awesome to me. The traits and made me love him so much. And it's such a shame. Sonic can be so much more than what he is as of current. And he deserves better.

 

Solo-Sonica is holding back the series.

 

Yeah Sonic is cool and all. I like playing as him.

 

But you know what Sonic Team?

 

He's not the only character who exists. Believe it or not.

 

For the past 24 years you've created all these cool characters who have their own distinct abilities that have proven themselves to hold large amounts of potential in regards to both narrative and gameplay. Not to mention their fandoms who would probably kill to see them be relevant in a Sonic game again instead of being delegated to being a walking toolkit (Tails) or cheerleader squad (The rest)

 

The games could be so much more if that was capitalized-upon.

 

So why won't you realize this?

[Celestia]

My view is more nuanced than complete positivity or cynicism. There's certain things I'm confident about and others that I'm...well, not.

 

Getting the negatives out of the way first...

 

I don't think we'll be seeing a game in the near future that has a lot of my biggest wishes for the series. I do think ST might surprise me there; in fact, I'm fairly confident they probably want to make games that would do these things, but with the current position SEGA is in these days, I can't say I expect much. When it comes down to it I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than constantly hoping for Sonic Adventure 3 certain things that aren't likely.

 

On the other hand, I'm not outright unhappy with the way things are. My apathy towards the Boom games aside, there hasn't really been anything to turn me off the series since '06. I'm still generally interested in seeing what Sonic Team does next even if there's a lot of things they could do that would make me even more enthusiastic about new games in the series. Until that happens I'll just have fun with the games and hopefully have fun discussing them.

 

Also, it helps that there's the comics, the Boom cartoon, fan works, and other Sonic stuff that I enjoy. Even if something happens with games, I can always just shrug it off and focus on something else in the franchise instead until the series is back on track. Such is the beauty of long-running franchises that have presence in multiple mediums, I guess.

[Soniman]

 but there is absolutely no excuse for games like Sonic Colors being considered the standard for this series in this day and age.

 

It was a good, solid game that was well liked by the general public and scored well with most critics, so...i don't know, SHOULDNT that be the standard??? Shouldnt we WANT consistent good games. Now i get what you're saying that the games should be like Mario Galaxy level quality on every release (ive long since given up on that idea personally) and the series shouldnt settle for just "good"  but I have no real idea why Sonic Colors of ALL games is the one that's considered "unacceptable" as the standard, of all the games in the series you could pick out.  Games like SLW shoulnt be the standard (highly experimental, flawed, etc), games like Colors should be what the basic requirements for the series should be, ie a good game at least.

 

As for my own cycnism there's not much to say. I thought SLW was fine if very flawed, Boom is so far removed from the regular series I can just pretend it doesnt exist. I still really liked Gens and Colors and don't retroactively find anything obscenely wrong with them like a lot of people in this topic do. Episode II, Free Riders, the Olympic games are just minor bullshit that doesnt matter. Pontac and Graff arent the best writers but I have no real hate towards them since they actually HAVE done some good here and there (I have thought, will think, and always thing that Sonic today is more entertaining and more fun then he's ever been in the main games since SA2, Eggman also). So like...idk man, im just waiting for the next game and hope it's good. I dabble in other places and fandoms until the next game is announced (heck if anything ive kinda gotten more cynical and jaded towards fandom which is why I don't take part in Sonic discussion almost at all anymore). 

 

I don't buy the idea that Sega "doesnt care", or at the vey least Sonic Team doesnt care, they do care, they wouldnt trying making a completley new brand for Sonic if they didnt care, they wouldnt try experimenting with diffrent things in one game if they didnt care, they wouldnt have a Con specifically for Sonic and Sonic fans if they didnt care. Im not saying they were all the RIGHT choices to make that yeilded in sucsess, I just dont go with the mindset of "I dont like this thing that they did, ie they dont care about Sonic because they're not focusing on what I like about the series".

 

Overall id just say, add some fucking characters besides Sonic back in this series please.

 

 

 

Am I missing something with Sonic here then? Because I'm pretty sure that going for not only that Conch but also that trap capsule when Tails told him to lay off both of them perfectly audibly comes off as pretty idiotic to me.

 

Except in the first case, Sonic was already halfway to the Conch before Tails began to explain anything, and Sonic was already moving to the capsule and Tails literally didnt have time to say anything which is why he took the bullet for him. Fair enough if you think that was idiotic of him (even though if it was ANY OTHER instance Sonic would've been right to do those things he did, hence why he probably figured it would be fine) but then that just goes back to him having some flaws, flaws that he DOES address later on verbally. It's why he swallows his own pride and works with Eggman despite Tails' protests, because he knows he messed up and doesn't want to do so again. It just kinda bugs me that people are so quick to throw Pontac!Sonic under the bus for being a shallow "flanderization" but when he finally does show some hidden depths it's just swept under the rug, but that's not the topic for this argument.

[LATER BUDDY]

While I enjoy looking up peoples' opinion on the games from time to time, a long time ago I learned that it just matters what you like, and don't hold your breath on getting what you want when the next Sonic game comes around the corner. Thanks to SEGA and their seemingly countless attempts at tackling Sonic in a new direction, it has split the series in soooo many fractions that it would be impossible to please everybody. Of course by nature you couldn't do that with any game for any franchise, but Sonic's fanbase is so split up that pleasing even the large majority is a hard task. Throw in that they still don't know what to do with the hedgehog and everybody is just a confused mess.

 

All fans what something specific. Some may be genius ideas, some may be genius ideas on paper, and some might just be plan stupid. Regardless if SEGA listens to any of this is beyond me, but I personally feel that the only way people are going to somewhat stop being cynical of Sonic is that they stick with one pretty solid idea and put all their money in to evolve it slowly game by game. They somewhat did this with Unleash's style and while the fanbase is pretty split on that game, it's what went on to create Colors and Generations, two Sonic games that most argue are the best in Sonic's 3D history.

 

My own personal cynicism? Boom needs to be done and over with as a game series at the least, since Sonic isn't successful enough as a game franchise to have multiple universes, I think anyway. Concentration on idea core idea would be fantastic to me, and I honestly see a lot of potential in combining Lost World and Unleash's style. I'm a firm believer that the Adventure style wasn't as great as our nostalgia goggles make them out to be and isn't going to translate well to modern gaming. Honing in on a visual style not unlike the Genesis era or Lost World in conjunction with polishing a workable gameplay style will potentially help it gain traction to be a large "everybody" game again like what Mario is to many.

 

But like I said, I'm just one of the few fish of many, and while I have what I'd think would be grand, could be balls to many others, and that's fine. I can say one thing that the Sonic franchise is always a surprise at least since we never know what's around the corner, but I wish SEGA wouldn't take stereotypical Sonic theme song lyrics so literally about "not looking back," since they need to figure out something :v

[Gabz Girl]

It's difficult for me to NOT be cynical about Sonic because as Sami, Verte and Kuzu mentioned already the series is just not the same anymore. This isn't the Sonic I fell in love with all those years ago but a shadow of gameplay cliches and copying off other, better platformers like Mario. The lacklustre stories, boost2win and sola Sonica started to get tiring even when Generations came out and I won't be surprised if the next game ends up much the same.

Sonic Lost World and Sonic Boom were the last straw for me and I've lost almost all interest in any forthcoming Sonic games. Fuck the SEGA PR who've said for all these years "we know Sonic, we know his roots blablabla" because it's all BS!

[Kuzu]

It was a good, solid game that was well liked by the general public and scored well with most critics, so...i don't know, SHOULDNT that be the standard??? Shouldnt we WANT consistent good games. Now i get what you're saying that the games should be like Mario Galaxy level quality on every release (ive long since given up on that idea personally) and the series shouldnt settle for just "good"  but I have no real idea why Sonic Colors of ALL games is the one that's considered "unacceptable" as the standard, of all the games in the series you could pick out.  Games like SLW shoulnt be the standard (highly experimental, flawed, etc), games like Colors should be what the basic requirements for the series should be, ie a good game at least.

 

I think you misinterpreted my original statement a bit(which tends to happen a lot online unfortunately, yay anonymity). I didn't say that to imply that games like Sonic Colors are bad(which is something I said in  the rest of my original post that you so conveniently ignored :V) I said that because every game after Colors has modeled itself after it; the simplistic, and lackadaisical approach with no real ambition behind its design than to simply get by on standard conventions. 

 

You're right, games like Colors are basic and should be the bare minimum of what's acceptable, but the problem the series hasn't done anything to break out of the mold it has created and has just decided to model itself after it and sit complacent. I don't really thing anyone should be satisfied with a series, Sonic or any other franchise, doing the bare minimum to succeed. One or two games is fine, but we've had three games with this approach, so I think some people have a right to get fed up if they never care for this approach in the first place. 

 

 

 

And going off a bit here. Soniman, why do you constantly single out the smallest and most insignificant parts of posts? Out of everything I said, you single out my one criticism of Sonic Colors, after I said I never thought they were bad games and wholly admitted they were good and functional. Look, I'll quote it just so you can see:

 

 Its not even like I feel the games are bad, they're fun and perfectly functional games and that is honestly what the series needed after putting out shovelware for years, but there is absolutely no excuse for games like Sonic Colors being considered the standard for this series in this day and age.

 

 

 

Like holy shit dude. Normally I'd just blow this off, but you constantly do the same thing all of the time. I'm really tired of having to explain myself like this. I get it, you like Sonic Colors, you probably think its god's gift to the series and you are perfectly free to feel that way. But stop taking even the smallest bit of criticism about it and blowing it out of proportion.

 

Its just a video game dude, chill out lol.

[Soniman]

Like holy shit dude. Normally I'd just blow this off, but you constantly do the same thing all of the time. I'm really tired of having to explain myself like this. I get it, you like Sonic Colors, you probably think its god's gift to the series and you are perfectly free to feel that way. But stop taking even the smallest bit of criticism about it and blowing it out of proportion.

 

Its just a video game dude, chill out lol.

 

://

 

Okay fine, whatever you say. I wasnt trying to attack you, I was just asking or clarification on why it shouldnt be the "acceptable standard" but yeah fine, take it as a personal thing if you want. Ill just be scarce again

[Kuzu]

Lol, whatever dude.

[Nepenthe]

Omega, the topic was actually going perfectly fine until you decided to up the ante and start digging after Soniman personally. You have a habit of doing this and it's proven more detrimental to discourse than anything he's done, so knock it off.

[Kuzu]

I did, hence my last post. 

 

ANYWHO, yea. Like I said. Games like Colors are the bare minimum of what I'd want out of the series. 

[Nepenthe]

You mean that last post that was completely dismissive towards him and dodged the core of the issue altogether? I read it, and my point still stands. Tone down the shitty attitude to people, and I'm talking in regards to your whole attitude, not just in this topic. Everyone is sick of it.

[Celestia]

I wouldn't count a dismissive and smug "lol whatever" as knocking it off. :V

 

Personally while I am more critical of Colours nowadays I don't think it's unacceptable standard for the series, at least in the sense that I'm fine with Sonic Team B's games being smaller scale. The problem is that SEGA doesn't market these games as being smaller titles, and of course they're priced just as highly as games like Unleashed and Generations. Fix these issues and, well, maybe people wouldn't have been quite as upset about more experimental titles like Lost World. Maybe.

[Kuzu]

You mean that last post that was completely dismissive towards him and dodged the core of the issue altogether? I read it, and my point still stands. Tone down the shitty attitude to people, and I'm talking in regards to your whole attitude, not just in this topic. Everyone is sick of it.

 

I don't feel like I was being actively malicious or trying to attack anyone, and if you feel I was, then I'll apologize and work on it. Cool. ok.

[Solkia]

 

So how did we get here? What really went wrong? 

 

 

What went wrong is we have a fucking idiot who acts like he's a visionary or some shit and has to make every game unique rather than make 1 coherent style and mix it up.

 

I don't get it. Why is it so fucking hard to say "Momentum, rolling, running, platforming" Instead of "Alien Transformations, Parkour, QTES, Waggle controls, OSU! in RPG form. Just make sure it has boost pads"

 

As much shit as I give it, I think they had something going with Heroes. But no, let's fucking scrap that and turn Shadow into Donte before Donte, give him guns, that the shit kids love.

 

I don't fucking understand. I really fucking don't understand why these goddamn morons can't take a fucking hint after a decade and a half.

[Nepenthe]

Personally while I am more critical of Colours nowadays I don't think it's unacceptable standard for the series, at least in the sense that I'm fine with Sonic Team B's games being smaller scale. The problem is that SEGA doesn't market these games as being smaller titles, and of course they're priced just as highly as games like Unleashed and Generations. Fix these issues and, well, maybe people wouldn't have been quite as upset about more experimental titles like Lost World. Maybe.

 

To be fair, Colors was apparently not even the main attraction of that year anyway since they kept downplaying it as something more for children and Sonic 4 as a title for the hardcore. Pricing would have somewhat addressed the issue in that it would've tempered expectations about the rough value of the product, but with that game's success and the subsequent use of its general design principles going forward, the price isn't actually the only issue. 

 

The entire series has taken on the direction of even more simplistic stories, a more easy-going gameplay direction and lack of challenge (there practically isn't a difficulty curve anymore; the same skill threshold you went in with is the same skill threshold you basically need going out, meaning it's six hours of just doing the same thing over and over without being called on to be tested or learn something new that adds depth or novelty to the current proceedings), the outright refusal of marrying these two things into one experience, and the eschewing of or the inability to achieve the mechanical depth of something like Mario or even Rayman to make up for this disconnect.

 

For fans of the elements, philosophies, and titles of the older direction, there is very little for these new games to offer to actually stimulate us. There's no challenge because the games refuse to give us one since they're moreso for smaller children versus a wide family audience consisting of younger and older players. There's no sense of adventure because we're not being given constant reason for why we're going from place to place or partaking in most particular stages. There's no interesting story to witness firsthand because Sonic Team refuses to write one with any real intrigue or plotting under the guise that we're not supposed to care to that extent. And of course the rest of the characters have been abandoned, so anyone who actually likes anyone else aside from Sonic, Tails, and Eggman has less of a reason to be entertained.

 

Further frustration occurs when it basically feels like you're arguing against the idea of sheer technical competency. Colors and Generations not being bug-fests or inconsistent in design comes across as literally the only things mattering to a gameplay experience. Subsequently, debating against this come across as fans simply not caring that the games got mechanically better or wanting something that is worse, when really this is, in a way, irrelevant. Sonic Team doing their base job of not sending out a broken product, to me, is like over-praising a window worker at a fast food joint for merely giving me my food. This is the most basic responsibility of the job, and thus it's not something that calls much attention to yourself. As a result, I don't remember most people giving me my food. But I do remember the people that go above and beyond to actually smile at me or host a small conversation. It's not that we don't want good games, or are even incapable of appreciating what good games have done for the franchise's reputation. We want the technical competency of today with the continuity and challenge of the past.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Gabz Girl]

I just want to be mesmerised by a Sonic game again. In this case, Mario never disappoints because those games always try new things yet they still focus on what makes Mario important; the platforming. Sonic is just...eh. It's not ambitious anymore, it's always the same bland game nowadays and what gimmicks they have usually fall flat on their face.

[Daisy-Fan]

last sonic game i was hyped was Unleashed because of how much I loved Sonic rush and Sonic Rush Adventure. it did turn a bit disappointing. Yet is sonic fast on these 2 new games? i do not believe this, l enjoyed also Sonic Colors and Generation, what did bother me in Colors was the map screen but maybe i do go too much far. am just someone who enjoyed sonic games as the best. yet i dont see anything hype about sonic boom or Lost world.

[pppp]

Like I said in my "Is Sonic Team 2015 passionate and have an understanding of the series?" topic that was lost to the wipeout, the big problem is that no one aside from fans like Taxman seem to know how to make a proper Sonic game anymore. Sonic Team seems to only be able to make something passable when they play it safe and barebones, Dimps hasn't made anything worthwhile in a long time and Bioware wasn't able to make even an RPG that knows how to make the genre fun(And that's sad, they're freaking Bioware).

 

You would think ex Naughty Dog developers would be able to bring back that edge, but even BRB failed us.

 

Unless SEGA finds a developer that knows the series and what makes it good, I don't think the cynicism is ever gonna stop, neither it should, cause like I always say, if we ourselves don't demand high quality then SEGA won't either.

[Dizcrybe]

People have been demanding high quality since 06 and yet the best games to come out since them are barely popular around here anymore.

[Nepenthe]

Because there's more to a good game than just technical polish. Design, tone, and intent matter as well, because we want our emotions stimulated beyond what clean code can give. It's the reason why just about every person here has a favorite game that isn't Tetris, even though by all accounts Tetris is the most perfectly designed game we have. Hell, did Tetris even show up on the Top 100 List at all?