Interview with Ken Pontac & Warren Graf.

[Kuzu]

From what I can tell, the stories Shiro had a hand in were Sonic Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic  06, and Zero gravity. That's not really a very good track record. 

 

Ok, I'm going to reply to this because I'm tired of hearing statements like this; Nobody is under any impression that the plots of those games are "amazing", but they get the basics of plotting down far better than the current games do, i.e. developing a plot point and actually resolving it and giving the player a reason for going through the level. If nothing else, Ken and Warren should at least look at those games to get that much down, is that too much to ask?

Edited November 9, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Diogenes]

Ok, I'm going to reply to this because I'm tired of hearing statements like this; Nobody is under any impression that the plots of those games are "amazing", but they get the basics of plotting down far better than the current games do, i.e. developing a plot point and actually resolving it and giving the player a reason for going through the level. If nothing else, Ken and Warren should at least look at those games to get that much down, is that too much to ask?

What reason did I have to go through levels in Heroes? What plot points weren't resolved in SLoW?

[Kuzu]

What reason did I have to go through levels in Heroes? What plot points weren't resolved in SLoW?

 

I went over this already, not doing this again.

[Wraith]

Ok, I'm going to reply to this because I'm tired of hearing statements like this; Nobody is under any impression that the plots of those games are "amazing", but they get the basics of plotting down far better than the current games do, i.e. developing a plot point and actually resolving it and giving the player a reason for going through the level. If nothing else, Ken and Warren should at least look at those games to get that much down, is that too much to ask?

I'm fine with them looking at SA 1, 2 and maybe even Zero Gravity but Heroes and Shadow did absolutely nothing better than the newer games. Heroes's plot especially is damn near structured exactly like the newer games without the good dialogue or characters to back it up. Shadow decides to shit all over everything before it and can't even keep it's own fucking story straight without dozens of in game plot holes, not even getting started on how it clashes with other games. 

[Fletch]

Does anyone else find it quite intriguing that the Adventure games never crossed Pontac's path during his research?

For me I do. I mean, the Adventure games were the first 3D games Sonic had... I would think that he would bother looking at them to see how a story was handle in them, then look at a more recent Sonic game such as Unleashed to see how things evolved/changed/whatever. 

Edited November 9, 2013 by Sonic CD

[Diogenes]

Honestly I'd bet the weaker ties between levels and story have more to do with games being bigger and more complex, and the series being without a clear vision or someone to guide it directly, leading to the levels and the story to be worked on separately more than collaboratively, rather than anything to do with the writers themselves.

[azoo]

I'm not sure why its being made out that we should just drop everything about the series before this point as if nothing (character portrayals, story elements, concepts and mythos, etc) is salvagable, just because two guys wrote some pretty funny character interactions. Nor does it make much sense that said guys doing that excuses the sloppiness of the rest of the story.

 

Its not a big surprise that they don't know much about Sonic. Maybe if they looked into it more, then they'd get a better idea on it, and it'd be better in the long run? I mean I wasn't expecting them to be massive Sonic geeks, but they could've at least efforted themselves enough to show they care about what they're working on. 

[Diogenes]

I'm not sure why its being made out that we should just drop everything about the series before this point as if nothing (character portrayals, story elements, concepts and mythos, etc) is salvagable, just because two guys wrote some pretty funny character interactions.

Who's saying this, exactly?

Honestly I don't think all that much is worth saving completely aside from Pontac and Graf's writing, and I'm not sure Sonic Team cared any more about it before they were brought on.

[azoo]

I dunno mang, its just thrown around like its not even worth hoping for returning. 

 

I also just got the impression that showing any bit of want for the characters to have their personalities back to how they were would be followed by one settling for flat characters or something, whenever that's not the case. 

[Nepenthe]

While I don't think it's true that people want everything from the past thrown away, the person who actually defends any of the writing traits of the pre-Unleashed era seems to be significantly rare in an environment that has either sorely forgotten about them or actively despises them as part of the problem. 

[Wraith]

While I don't think it's true that people want everything from the past thrown away, the person who actually defends any of the writing traits of the pre-Unleashed era seems to be significantly rare in an environment that has either sorely forgotten about them or actively despises them as part of the problem. 

 

Doesn't that say more about the quality of the games themselves? 

[Nepenthe]

It is most likely a reaction to the games themselves, but at the same time, you'd think it would be somewhat easy to establish a more nuanced position of "these things worked in the story of a game that just so happened to be bad/aged poorly."

[Kuzu]

It also should be noted that some of those games were regarded as the best before the fandom decided they suck; I get they aged badly, but people act like there wasn't a time when people actually liked those games.

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[Wraith]

It also should be noted that some of those games were regarded as the best before the fandom decided they suck; I get they aged badly, but people act like there wasn't a time when people actually liked those games

 

How they actually hold up today is something far more relevant. People aren't going to acknowledge that they liked the game in the past every time they come up. 

[Kuzu]

Yes, but everyone seems to act like there was nothing good about those games at all. It's like it went from "this game is pretty alright despite the flaws" to "This game was never good and you're stupid for ever thinking there was"

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[Wraith]

Yes, but everyone seems to act like there was nothing good about those games at all. It's like it went from "this game is pretty alright despite the flaws" to "This game was never good and you're stupid for ever thinking there was"

 

 

People over exaggerate, yeah, but that's generally what happens when something ages poorly. This really isn't a thing exclusive to this fanbase.

[Kuzu]

I'm not saying it isn't, but to give an example of what I am talking about; If I made a topic, discussing the flaws of Sonic Colors, almost everyone would either disagree with me or try to downplay my points, but if I made a similar topic talking about Sonic Adventure 2's flaws, almost everyone unanimously agree.

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[Diogenes]

Would they? I know I wouldn't hesitate to tear at Colors.

[Nepenthe]

Colors has significantly more love than SA2. As a result, the conversations would be radically different.

[Wraith]

I'm not saying it isn't, but to give an example of what I am talking about; If I made a topic, discussing the flaws of Sonic Colors, almost everyone would either disagree with me or try to downplay my points

 

 

Since when? 

Seriously, everyone's eager to tear into Colors now. Especially since Lost World's story was basically "Colors but done far, FAR better."

 

 

 

Colors has significantly more love than SA2. As a result, the conversations would be radically different.

 

 

 

Well, yeah, that's a given, but nobody hesitates to call out Colors on it's bullshit anymore either. SA2 will just get more shit because people like it less. 

Edited November 10, 2013 by Smoky Progg

[Nepenthe]

Well, yeah, that's a given, but nobody hesitates to call out Colors on it's bullshit anymore either. 

 

True, but the difference is that Colors has significantly more defenders than SA2, and if the Unleashed vs. Colors topic has any standing here, the game is more popular than people are willing to admit. Overall, the two games are on such opposite ends of the spectrum of reception that there's truth to what Azure is saying, even if he's exaggerating to some degree.

[Diogenes]

Man I can't even imagine Colors being the fanbase's golden child; I thought it was the black sheep of the boost games.

[Wraith]

True, but the difference is that Colors has significantly more defenders than SA2, and if the Unleashed vs. Colors topic has any standing here, the game is more popular than people are willing to admit. Overall, the two games are on such opposite ends of the spectrum of reception that there's truth to what Azure is saying, even if he's exaggerating to some degree.

What bothers me is that he's sort of getting into the territory of complaining about people feeling a certain way or being more defensive of a game they like more, which is a given, while at the same time over-exaggerating both sides of the spectrum.

[Nepenthe]

He essentially said people view the older 3D games as if there was little good about them which is in contrast to an environment more forgiving of Colors' flaws, and overall this exemplifies a general consensus that we're better off not pulling anything storywise from these past games. I don't see what's entirely off the mark about that, unless I'm misunderstanding.
 

Man I can't even imagine Colors being the fanbase's golden child; I thought it was the black sheep of the boost games.

 
I don't know how the game that is "the one that got Sonic back on track" the black sheep of anything, especially over the boost game that was "half good and half awful."

Edited November 10, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Diogenes]

Yeah, but it's the slow one, the one with wisps, the one on the dumpy old Wii. It got a lot of hype, but so has just about every major Sonic game...and it sure as hell got sidelined by Sonic "Greatest Game Ever" Generations...