Sonic Chronicles, Cannon or not?

[smogfog]

How can there be opinions about what game is canon and what is not? Sega clearly stated that Chronicles is not a canon game.

I wouldn't take AAUK's word as definitive to be honest. He said the same about the storybook series before Generations came along and made an unavoidable reference to SatSR in its story, with much the same inaccuracy as Chronicles' references.

 

May be it's because English script for Sonic games except Colors is written upon basic japanese explanation about what happens in every cutscene. I highly doubt that such explanation had Secret Rings reference. I'd rather believe that Pontac and Graff don't give a damn about Sonic canon.

Edited June 15, 2013 by crystallize

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I say most, because their portrayal of Big the Cat was nothing short of fantastic.

Maybe it's just different strokes, but I think they did Big some terrible injustice in Chronicles, and I don't even like him right now.

 

The only continuity of Big that I happen to enjoy hands down would be his portrayal in the Archie Comics, and I say that to the point that I'd like to see him do more.

[Blue Blood]

Canon changes sometimes. Maybe they didn't regard it as canon before Generations was written, but then thought it would be nice to acknowledge it. Or the writers put it in and Sonic Team didn't think it was important to change it. The latter seems more likely. I honestly don't think they care about canon very much. Loose connections between games are just for the fans.

Which is why I don't put much stock in all the "this game is canon, this game isn't" malarkey.

[Your Vest Friend]

They most don't care...but I think they cared when a Western company botched up as much as BioWare did. 

[Blue Blood]

They most don't care...but I think they cared when a Western company botched up as much as BioWare did.

They only botched it up as much as Sonic Team allowed them too.

[Aquaslash]

I think the most accurate thing is what Dark Quivt was saying, and I believe that's what Sonic Team is trying to say too.  It can't affect the other games, bar time traveling, because it hasn't happened yet.  Unless we jump to the future and let Silver take over it would have to be the last game.

 

Also, re the Knuckles thing.  I've always believed him to be the last of his tribe, as opposed to his species.  However, I don't think there's been any specific mention that other echidnas were killed/died.  If you fling a bunch of them into a pocket dimension, and then leave them there for centuries, they're effectively dead to your main universe anyway.  Basically it's not really a roadblock to there being more echidna characters.

[Vertekins]

May be it's because English script for Sonic games except Colors is written upon basic japanese explanation about what happens in every cutscene. I highly doubt that such explanation had Secret Rings reference. I'd rather believe that Pontac and Graff don't give a damn about Sonic canon.

 

I disagree. Some lines in Generations attest to the fact that they did do research on the series' past continuity. There's the two references to SatSR of which the first ("Saving genies in magic books") is actually accurate considering that Sonic saved Shahra from Erazor and had her resurrected from death and the second reference being Sonic's line "No adventure is fun if it's too easy" (He says this after he gains the Green World Ring in SatSR), the clever reference to that one problematic bit of level design in Chemical Plant act 2 by having Tails mention how the pink water makes him nervous, the sharp observation shown by the way Tails is unfamiliar with Green Hill zone because canonically he's never visited it before and the way that Classic Eggman spurns his real surname in reference to his embracing of his alias in reference to himself.

 

 

God no. I thought Big was abysmal in this game. Even worse is that Bioware went around specifically promising us that they had managed to raise Big's IQ a little bit, but come release we find that this was his most brain-dead incarnation in the entire series.

 

He made the leap from slow-on-the-pickup wild man to flat out mental retardation. He could barely comprehend what was going on around him. It was painful to watch. It was that bad.

 

THIS. Ditto the hell out of this.

 

Big may be a little dim but for fuck's sake he's not thick to the point that he can't tell if his eyes are closed when it's dark and he has rational lines of thought in which he doesn't go off on completely odd and unrelated tangents in conversation (Ice Cream? Seriously?). Simple =/= Stupid. Heck! Big is at least intelligent enough to control the Tornado 2 with enough refinery to get back to his hut even if the plane was crashed in the process and he's also clearly resourceful enough to live out in the wilderness with only a fishing rod as a means of gaining sustenance for himself.

[Kuzu]

Yea, I'm going to say while I didn't have a problem with Big from Chronicles, I also don't see how they wrote him any better than what he was before...he was a simple minded fool before Chronicles...and they didn't really change that. so...yea

[Kamakai]

 

 

Bioware's portrayal of Big in this game is so fucking inaccurate it hurts me.While Big is clearly no example of remarkable intelligence, he is definitely not so hopelessly retarded as to not be able to tell that his eyes are closed and instead thinking his eyes are broken. OH NO! SERIOUS SITUATION! "We could give Big some ice cream!" What the fuck happened to him in this game?

[smogfog]

I disagree.

Some lines in Generations attest to the fact that they did do research on the series' past continuity. There's the two references to SatSR of which the first ("Saving genies in magic books") is actually accurate considering that Sonic saved Shahra from Erazor and had her resurrected from death and the second reference being Sonic's line "No adventure is fun if it's too easy" (He says this after he gains the Green World Ring in SatSR), the clever reference to that one problematic bit of level design in Chemical Plant act 2 by having Tails mention how the pink water makes him nervous, the sharp observation shown by the way Tails is unfamiliar with Green Hill zone because canonically he's never visited it before and the way that Classic Eggman spurns his real surname in reference to his embracing of his alias in reference to himself.

Do you have any other evidence about Pontac and Graff's research on Sonic continuity _{it can be a nice book title} except these random references?

 

-I guess you're aware of that parody video "SG plot in 2 minutes" or what it's called, that makes fun of Tails' amnesia about Green Hill and all the similar places? Sonic's world is so lush that 90% of it probably looks like Green Hill, so why would Tails only call "Green Hill" a place that's officially called so?

-Secret Rings have condidered as spin-off for years. How a couple of jokes in SG, that divides continuity and itself by zero couple of times can make SatSR canon?

 

Tails and Modern/Classic Eggman references can be easily considered as Retro Era fanservice without much sense, and SatSR is some random game that's been pulled out just to have something to joke about.

Edited June 15, 2013 by crystallize

[Jolt_TH]

To be fair I can't see why the storybook games cant be counted as canon? They took place in a book between titles, that's not hard to believe at all

[Shikushi]

   - Eggman does not run correctly... ugh! Yeah, kinda creepy actually...

 

   How would the running animation matter?

 

  - Tails is just fine with Sonic leaving and not coming back for a long, long time. Never saw that in another game!

 

   I've never seen Tails be sad/not fine about Sonic leaving.

 

 That's all I can really answer. 

[DarkLight]

To be fair I can't see why the storybook games cant be counted as canon? They took place in a book between titles, that's not hard to believe at all

 

Yeah, I always viewed the Storybook games as little side-stories Sonic took when he wasn't busy fighting Eggman or whatever thus having them canon wouldn't bring much of an issue.

[StaticMania]

Yea, I'm going to say while I didn't have a problem with Big from Chronicles, I also don't see how they wrote him any better than what he was before...he was a simple minded fool before Chronicles...and they didn't really change that. so...yea

You really don't?

 

Big went from being Simple minded cat (that lived pretty well off in the forest) who had instances of intelligence and who could actually tell what was going on and reacted appropriately(Like him trying to stand up for Amy and Cream in Heroes)  to a complete dunce who says non-sequitur things not appropriate to the situation and even got stupidity immunity so he could walk through stuff like poison just because he didn't notice it. Basically in Sa1 you could tell he was able to live a non-strugglin' life in the forest, while in Chronicles you'd pretty much say he's to dumb to live and the only reason he survives is just luck and cartoon logic. ...And you're telling me that he wasn't changed?

[Vertekins]

Do you have any other evidence about Pontac and Graff's research on Sonic continuity _{it can be a nice book title} except these random references?

 

These being random references doesn't detract from the fact that they still came about clearly as a result of research into past continuity.

 

 

-I guess you're aware of that parody video "SG plot in 2 minutes" or what it's called, that makes fun of Tails' amnesia about Green Hill and all the similar places? Sonic's world is so lush that 90% of it probably looks like Green Hill, so why would Tails only call "Green Hill" a place that's officially called so?

 

I think Tails is rational enough not to confuse GHZ's distinctiveness with, say, Emerald Hill Zone's design.

 

-Secret Rings have condidered as spin-off for years. How a couple of jokes in SG, that divides continuity and itself by zero couple of times can make SatSR canon?

 

Because if Sonic acknowledged it's events, it had to have happened otherwise he'd have no reason to recount it. And I don't think that Generations really divides continuity much at all. And being a spin-off isn't a surefire way of discounting a game's canon status - Shadow the Hedgehog's a spin-off yet it's Last Story is canon.

[Badnik Zero]

Obviously chances are way way low because the series never continued, making the whole game an unfinished plot thread. It's easy to say now that it isn't canon, but I think a more interesting question is, was the series planned to be canon at the time of release? Let's take into account the stage in Winter Olympics. Let's consider the Ken Penders lawsuit that this game was at the center of. Also, many of the storyline inconsistencies people like to point out are in fact in the game's encyclopedia, which is just a quick reference tool in the game. It has no bearing on game dialogue itself, so I'd lend the encyclopedia entries as much weight in this argument as say, the classic English game manuals. I think it'd be fair to rule those instances out, and anyways a few plot errors does not undo a game's place in a timeline. So even though we all know this game is not canon, I believe at the time that Sega had every intention of letting it be.

[Sega DogTagz]

So even though we all know this game is not canon, I believe at the time that Sega had every intention of letting it be.

 

It wouldn't of mattered either way. Since Bioware went out of their way to position the game in the future - beyond the current series - even if Sega had every intention of letting it remain canon, it still would have no effect on the current series.

 

 

Sega could turn a blind eye to what Bioware was doing (it looks like they just might have) and the end result would have been the same. Canon or not, it still would be on its own little island that can't be touched. Its was in a canon limbo right from the start.

[Linkabel]

I have to agree with Blue Blood on what he said. Plus I don't know how some people can have trouble with some of the contradictions when other games in the "main cannon" tend to do the same sometimes.

 

For example, the Sonic & Shadow teaming up to beat Eggman in SA2 vs. Shadow The Hedgehog's President scene where he has a photo with Sonic & Shadow (that couldn't have happened after SA2 or maybe it was taken after Sonic Heroes, but come on Shadow coming to the President's house to take a photo?)

 

Or Angel Island's design vs. the Moon being restored after SA2 or the differences between Angel Island's differences between S&K and SA.

 

Another thing I have a problem with is that Knuckles being a descendant of Pachamac is not possible. He might not be a direct descendant but he can still be a descendant nonetheless.

 

About the whole issue of Sonic and Co. wanting to stop Eggman once and for all....well I really don't see a problem either. How many times has Sonic left Eggman for dead? In Sonic 1 you had the option of destroying his Eggmobile, in Sonic 2/Sonic3/Knuckles you blew him up in space, in SA you let him crash into the ground during the Egg Viper battle.

 

Heck in Sonic 06, Sonic knows Eggman and Elise dies yet he only decides to save Elise and fight Eggman knowing well his fate.

 

Sure, Sonic doesn't go with the intention of killing Eggman, but he surely doesn't mind if his actions lead to Eggman's demise. Maybe by the time of Chronicle's timeline Sonic and Co. have seen all the damage and casualties Eggman has done and decided to put a stop to him (which doesn't necessarily mean kill him.)

 

I agree though that this game was a wasted opportunity and could have been better though. I also agree with CSS that some of the story elements of this game make it back in the near future though.

[Johnny Boy]

No it isn't canon. I do wish some of it's elements were however, like the Nocturnus clan's Shade and Ix. This series could benefit with more recurring villains.

Exactly my thoughts. Ix would make an excellent arch nemesis for Knuckles, especially since his tribe got into a war with Ix 3000 years ago (this explains why Pachamac was so hell bent on getting the Master Emerald in Sonic Adventure).

[nuckles87]

Sonic Chronicles isn't a cannon, it is a game. A game that does not take place in the same canon as any of the other games.

[smogfog]

These being random references doesn't detract from the fact that they still came about clearly as a result of research into past continuity.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

-SG writers don't care about Sonic continuity.

-They do.

-Why?

-These references are result of their research.

-These are random.

-But they still are result of their research.

 

I'm still waiting for some proof about Pontac and Graff's research on Sonic continuity^TM

 

I think Tails is rational enough not to confuse GHZ's distinctiveness with, say, Emerald Hill Zone's design.

I think Tails is rational enough to understand that Green Hill design isn't that much different from Emerald Hill and other green zones he visited, and there's no need to state it as something entirely different and be surprised about it.

 

Because if Sonic acknowledged it's events, it had to have happened otherwise he'd have no reason to recount it.

I just check out japanese dialogue, and it's the same. Okay.

 

And I don't think that Generations really divides continuity much at all.

-Blaze and Silver coming not just from future or past, but from a different, cancelled time branch? And nobody's surprised?

-Early 1990's Sonic, Tails, and Eggman that after travel to differently designed game still look the same? It's like the world was grayscale before color film was invented, and every person from 1900s will be grayscale and blurry in today's reality.

 

And being a spin-off isn't a surefire way of discounting a game's canon status

The very point of being a spin-off is to be absent from canon.

 

Shadow the Hedgehog's a spin-off.

No it's not.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd have more reason to believe that Ken and Pontac aren't being given enough leeway to make a big enough plot considering the backlash against the stories from the Heroes-Sonic 06 era. Given that they were involved in the game whose very theme was about taking a trip through memory lane, I seriously doubt they wouldn't have at least an average understanding of the series' continuity.

 

Also...

No it's not.

Actually, yes it is. ShTH just so happens to be unique in that doubles as both a mainstream title as a major entry and a spin-off title that doesn't include Sonic as the star.

Edited June 16, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[AAUK]

Chronicles - It's not canon at all, it's its own little reality. Are people really still arguing about this? 

Shadow is a spin-off as the principal star isn't the star of the game franchise but another character. It is also canon. Its follows on from Sonic Heroes and sets up a lot of the character progression for GUN and Shadow (obviously) that has followed through into subsequent games.


(inb4 someone mentions the old SEGA forum post therefore I MUST be wrong despite the fact 95% of it still holds true and I said in it that SEGA can change their minds and retcon anything at any time.)

[Your Vest Friend]

Can I just say that your playthrough of Chronicles was hilarious? I don't see you that often, so I thought I'd get that out now. 

 

Also I totally don't have part 8 tucked away in my official SEGA information references bookmark folder or anything. Nope, not at all. 

Edited June 16, 2013 by VEDJ-F

[smogfog]

I'd have more reason to believe that Ken and Pontac aren't being given enough leeway to make a big enough plot considering the backlash against the stories from the Heroes-Sonic 06 era. Given that they were involved in the game whose very theme was about taking a trip through memory lane, I seriously doubt they wouldn't have at least an average understanding of the series' continuity.

How can I separate bad writer from narrowly limited good writer?

 

 

Actually, yes it is. ShTH just so happens to be unique in that doubles as both a mainstream title as a major entry and a spin-off title that doesn't include Sonic as the star.

ShTH include Sonic as a side character. Yes, he's not playable there, but canon isn't about playable or not, it's about things to happen in the japanese Sonic game universe.