Genre Experimentation

[Sean]

If Okami's design is anything to go by, there's a lot that the player could be able to do in-between dungeon levels so that it wouldn't simply be "running around and wait until you reach the next Eggman base," if the game is designed properly. That crossed my mind as I was typing it, and I'm sure with enough care put into it, there's a lot of potential that every aspect of the game could provide, rather than tossing the player scraps only every so often.

Also, in Okami, the different demon holds themselves were varied, as they too emphasized exploration over simply reaching the boss or end. For example, there's a giant windmill that Amaterasu has to climb, and she uses her powers to find creative ways to get around particular obstacles. There were also underground caverns, an enemy "city," and mountain ranges that utilized unique puzzles, etc. In this fantasy idea I conjoured up, Sonic could similarily use his speed, spinning, and maneuvering skills for the dungeon levels, to keep things fresh throughout, much like how Okami did.

[Blacklightning]

I'm surprised nobody's dropped a Sandbox idea yet. Using high speed to cross-country areas of vast proportions? What could possibly go wrong? The main thing I'd be concerned about, though, is making a movement system that isn't dependent on gimmicks planted into the scenery (springs, boost pads and the like). I shouldn't expect to have the game tell me where and when I can run up or along walls - I should be able to do it of my own damn whim, whenever I feel like it. Consequently, I shouldn't have to be told when and where I can do wall jumps - not only should I be able to decide where it happens, but also which direction I actually jump in. Just by accomplishing these two things, you'd already have a playable Sonic CD intro ready to go - if it can be expanded apon to Mirror's Edge levels of fluidity, the end result can only be good in the long run. Of course, most of this could still apply to a standard Sonic game, but I cannot stress enough that it's absolutely necessary for a Sonic sandbox/adventure game to work.

I'll second a fighting game too, as long as they distance themselves from traditional fighters as much as possible. StF is okay, but fairly clumsy and brainless as far as fighting games go, and I wouldn't expect any other traditional style fighter to get the Sonicy approach right either way. Sonic Battle was on the right track, but it was far too simple and repetitive - chasing opponents down after a heavy hit is exactly what I'd expect of Sonic combat, but for the most part the entire match would consist of 3-hit-comboing someone into a wall, then spiking them into the ground when they bounced back, and any sense of comboing or general depth didn't extend far beyond that (some clever Emerl combinations can obviously do the job better, but I always thought the Dash Attack + Air Attack + Air Shot combo with Tails was pretty neat). If they gave a bigger moveset for each character without removing the immediate Pick Up and Play ease of access that the original Battle had, it'd work wonders. Shouldn't be too hard nowadays, now that today's handhelds have more buttons to choose from.

Also, I heard someone mention RTS. I'm going to yet again whore an old concept of mine which would tie an RTS gameplay style into an extra mode for a mainstream game, as a gametype for a Sonic game with online multiplayer capabilities and a level editor ala Halo 3's Forge mode. I never really finished the concept itself as a whole, but it's still somewhere in the blog in my sig if you search deep enough.

Stage Layout Editor / Eggman Empire mode

To further add to replay value and online interaction in Revised, an in-built level editor is included to allow players to create their own unique challenges by changing the layout of objects in the level, including items, enemies, hazards and even just plain decor. This isn't even specifically limited to one type of map, either – you can edit single player levels, multiplayer maps and anything in between. In fact, it's even possible for players to transform one type of level into its exact opposite – single player levels can be changed into multiplayer maps, and vice versa.

The actual editing process takes place via a generic Eggman drone with a permanent fly/hover ability. It controls much like a typical playable character, albiet with some different button mappings:

Control sticks: Horizontal movement and camera, as per normal. Camera movement is locked in “focus” mode for the sake of precision.

A: Vertical movement. Hold A and up or down on the movement stick to ascend or descend with appropriate speed, specified by the amount of force applied.

X: Spawns an object onto the nearest surface that the player is aiming towards.

Y: Grab/release an object, similar to Silver's Telekinetic grab. Tapping Y whilst holding an object causes it to drop to the ground, but holding it for a second causes it to levitate on its own without the player's intervention.

B: Delete the currently focused object.

LB/RB: Cycle between objects to drop.

LT/RT: Cycle between object categories (items, badniks, scenery, level goals and sequences etc)

From thereon, it's up to the player to design a level layout as they see fit. Unfortunately, total freedom of creation is impossible, and thus there are limits to the amount of objects players can place in a level, each guaged by their maximum possible processor load (for example, a breakable box would be valued not by its initial processor load, but the amount of strain that its many individual fragments cause after it's broken by force). Otherwise, it's up to the player what they create.

Additionally, the level editor has an unlockable, surprisingly deep sub-game buried within – the Eggman Empire mode. Initially it controls in much the same way as the aformentioned Layout Editor, but subtle tweaks and mechanics work to transform it into a very RTS-like experience between two or more players.

To help demonstrate how such a game would play out in a layout editor, here is an example of how things could progress:

 First, the player starts out with nothing but a Layout bot (the earlier mentioned generic eggbot that does the layout editing) and a specialized badnik factory that produces said Layout bots. To start off, everything in the game needs resources in an RTS, and this is no exception. To add more capacity to create new objects and structures for their base, the player must scatter rings all about the level – the more they place, the bigger their maximum army and structure capacity. Using rings in particular manners – such as creating long strings, circles or compacted stockpiles – give additional capacity benefits.

 Now that the player has scattered enough rings to create a sizable force to their own section of the level, the player can use the Layout bot to create objects that benefit their own cause – badniks, vending machines, turrets, obstacles and whatnot. All of the objects that the player creates are tinted a particular colour to individualize it from enemy objects. Some objects – including badniks and some items – can be grouped to a single “commander” object or badnik, and while this method costs less ring dispersal, destroying the commanding object simultaneously destroys all objects linked to it and thus makes it a much riskier approach. Finally, the player must determine their defeat goal to give an advantage against attackers. There are a wide range of defeat goals available, and the more trustworthy they are, the more they cost. By default, the defeat goal is a mere goal marker that would usually occur at the end of a standard level, but more indepth goals include:

 A locked goal: Requires destroying a commanding badnik (cheaper) or a group of badniks guarding it (more expensive) to uncover the goal.

 Stealthed goal: The goal is transparent and thus difficult to see unless the player is nearby it. Objective goal: Scatter several keys to the defeat goal across the map, which the enemy will need to collect before accessing the goal. Number of keys can range from 1 to 10, and again more keys means more expenses. Objective goals are assisted by giving the enemy a Treasure Hunt style sonar to help track goals down.

 Boss goal: The goal is contained within a large, difficult-to-defeat badnik, and requires the enemy to destroy the boss before accessing the goal.

 Lastly, when the player is satisfied that his makeshift base will hold up against enemy attacks, they can shift into a character of choice (which is selected before the beginning of the match) at the expense of rings to take on enemy bases and thus, attempt to win the match by reaching the enemy's defeat goal. The badniks that the player created will react automatically to threats as they usually would in the middle of an ordinary single player game, and attempt to defeat incoming enemy players to prevent them from reaching the defeat goal themselves.

And that's just the basic gameplay, because like any RTS game there is a thick layer of strategic placement of items that can help secure victory. For example, a player could scatter numerous keys for an Objective Goal as far from each other as possible, then place turrets or badniks around each of them to hinder players that attempt to acquire them. Or, a player could create a simple Locked goal... then link it to a horde of stealthed, non-attacking badniks to make them difficult to find and thus, harder to unlock the goal.

And even at the basic level, it's all about knowing when to shift into character to attack the enemy base. Too early, and you could leave your base defenseless against a counter attack. Too late, and you may find an enemy impossible to overcome. At a basic level, it's all about knowing when to attack head on, but there are many tactics that can come through clever utilization of defeat goals, badnik combinations and formations, and overall hard-pointed structures to aid a player in motion.

[azoo]

I always had a feeling that making a racing game with controls like Unleashed would be a PERFECT idea for a racing Sonic game. Just add other speedy characters from the series (Knuckles, Shadow, Blaze), give them controls and handling much like SU's daytime stages, make multiple levels in the racing-style Unleashed gave, and BAM! A really good racing game.

(But of course, every character will have their own specific attacks and moves)

[The Adventurer]

Considering his most recent releases (Fighting in Brawl, smashing things as the werehog in unleashed, swordplay in SBK and using all sorts of special attacks in Chronicles), Sonic's actually been doing a lot of fighting. What I'd like to see is a fully devoted fighting game, in the trend of Power Stone, for ST to really hammer out the idea of how Sonic and his friends fight.

Or just Sonic Battle 2. Whatev.

[Ryan Brown]

Hmm...Unleashed never really struck me as a racing type, no matter how fast it is. I suppose if it were implemented in a style to display an extremely improved Sonic R, then yeah.

[Gamma V]

I think a 2D run-and-gun platformer would be a good choice for an Omega solo game. This game would probably be released either on handhelds or as a download on WiiWare/XBLA/PSN. The controls would be simple. One action button would make Omega jump, another would make him fire, and a third would cycle through the different weapons. The story would simply revolve around Omega continuing his personal vendetta against Eggman.

[Gamenerd]

The other day, I was thinking about how Sonic could work as an adventure game similar to Okami.

Rather than placing a goal ring that must be reached to clear a stage, the setting would be essentially that of a mini-country of sorts. Anywhere and everywhere can be explored in this game with relatively no limits or restrictions that a platformer puts on the player. Sonic would freely be able to cover vast amounts of land full of objectives, side missions, enemies, and citizens. He could eradicate areas which are under Dr. Eggman's control by infiltrating various bases and enemy holds around the country, defeating each one of Eggman's sub-bosses until the country is free of his rule. Platforming may be involved in select areas, but exploration will always be key.

I would also place a great emphasis on atmosphere. Okami was based on rural Japan, and the entire game looked and felt like a living watercolor painting. It was accompanied by appropriate music, area designs, and aesthetic appeal. For this Sonic game, I would want anything and everything to be possible, closer to a Lewis Carroll story, in which weird happenings are abound while nobody really bats an eyelash at them. While environments can be varied to maintain interest throughout the game (and to keep Sonic's design appeal), it would be nice if they appropriately complemented one another, rather than some of the arbituary level decisions of the classic Sonic games. If there is a Green Hill-esque area, as Sonic runs across the land, let it gradually evolve into a more typical tropical area, followed by the countryside, followed by more urban locales.

Characterizations and NPCs are vital. The game will be filled to the brim with both enemies and citizens that Sonic can interact with, no matter where you go - and each will have their own personality and memorability, most of them playing a small role in Sonic's quest to restore the land. Sonic himself will be a silent protagonist - like any good adventure game, the player should feel like he/she is in Sonic's shoes, and is immersed in the game's world as naturally as possible. I feel that this can be aided by removing Sonic's dialogue altogether. However, Sonic will maintain his keepsake, happy-go-lucky nature, as expressed by body language, facial expressions, and movement, so he won't turn into a personality-less cypher by any means.

Other than NPCs, I would like to keep the amount of recurring characters relatively small. Dr. Eggman will be the enemy, but I would like much of the focus to remain on Sonic. The reason for this isn't because I'm one of those "I want a Sonic-only game with none of his shitty friends" advocators, but because I feel it would help maintain the feel of a more open, worldly environment around Sonic, of which he is a small part. I want the atmosphere of the game focusing on Sonic and his relationship with the land as a whole, rather than going into detail about other characters who are more associated with Sonic himself than they are with the world around them. If that makes any sense...

I'm surprised nobody's dropped a Sandbox idea yet. Using high speed to cross-country areas of vast proportions? What could possibly go wrong? The main thing I'd be concerned about, though, is making a movement system that isn't dependent on gimmicks planted into the scenery (springs, boost pads and the like). I shouldn't expect to have the game tell me where and when I can run up or along walls - I should be able to do it of my own damn whim, whenever I feel like it. Consequently, I shouldn't have to be told when and where I can do wall jumps - not only should I be able to decide where it happens, but also which direction I actually jump in. Just by accomplishing these two things, you'd already have a playable Sonic CD intro ready to go - if it can be expanded apon to Mirror's Edge levels of fluidity, the end result can only be good in the long run. Of course, most of this could still apply to a standard Sonic game, but I cannot stress enough that it's absolutely necessary for a Sonic sandbox/adventure game to work.

These are both excellent ideas, and something I'd very much like Sonic to pursue. Sonic Adventure started to do this kind of thing, but there were too many characters and too much definition between Adventure Field and Action Stage. However, there is potential in the concept and if Sonic took it further, he could reach a niche in being a high-speed sandbox free-running platformer (has that ever been done before?) with the atmosphere of Sonic 1 meets Nights meets Sonic Unleashed.

In fact, I made a similar post about such a game in another thread. I'll just whore it out here:

The game differs greatly from most of the Sonic series, instead taking on a more mission-based structure. You know how Sonic 1 Game Gear implies through the map system that the entire game takes place on one big, surreal island? Yeah. I want that from a Sonic game. One great big unnatural looking island to explore, with geometric greenery, cube-y mountains and more bright colours than you can shake a stick at.

Sonic would run somewhat faster than Adventure speed, running at a speed more like Unleashed Wii without boosts (and possibly a higher accelaration), and he'd have acrobatic moves for every situation, like a mix between Mario 64 and Mirrors Edge. You can walljump, wallrun, ledge-fling (grabbing a ledge and instantaneously using it to fling oneself upwards at a consistent speed), jump from tree to tree and even hop on top of enemies (BADNIKS) and ride them. You can run up walls, on ceilings and such just like in the old games, plus you can use the Spin Dash (as well as break out of it into a run ala Sonic Adventure). Part of the thrill of the game is not to go at supersonic speeds, but to maintain a decent speed. Sonic has many parkor-like moves to keep him at a constant pace without depleting speed when doing things such as wall-jumping, platforming and ledge-climbing. Sonic controls alot like in Sonic Jam or Sonic Adventure, has somewhat eskew pinball physics, and has a camera system amazingly similar to the quality, auto-controlled one from Mario Galaxy, but from a slightly higher angle (as if you are looking down on him ala Sonic Jam or Sonic 3D Blast).

Gameplay-wise you would sort of go about doing "story missions", which progress the story further, normally being point A to point B type deals, races, collect-'em-ups or destructive challenges. So for example, when Sonic sees Tails first crash in Sonic Adventure - you'd see him crash, a little prompt ring would appear, and running into it would activate the mission of saving Tails. Sonic-esque action would resume as normal, only there's no clear distinction between hub world and action stage, with the beach being accessible forevermore, with various other missions being present within it, and no loading screen. There would still be lots of running, lots of platforming and lots of A-to-B type missions, only in one unified island setting with no load screens and no bottomless pits. The start point for the next mission is normally quite clear, being indicated by something like a cutscene, but just in case, there is a semi-transparent arrow on the floor below Sonic that points to your destination. There could also be a GTA-style map.

The controls of the game would be simple. There would be directional movement with a D-pad/control stick, and two action buttons. The main action button would be used for many things, from jumping, to homing attacking, to wall-jumping, ledge-hopping and more. The secondary action button would be purely for rolls and spins. When standing still in a static position, it is used to charge the spin dash. When running at near full speed it's used to do a seamless mid-run roll attack, after which Sonic transitions back into a run. In a ball, you move faster and can plough through badniks, but your grip goes almost completely. In air, the secondary action button is used for a Sonic 3 & Knuckles style air slash, or if you're near rings, the light dash. There would be one more button, a camera trigger button, used for positioning the camera behind Sonic incase the auto camera isn't quite doing it right. Tapping the Camera trigger makes it center behind Sonic, and holding it rotates the camera clockwise around him. There could even be special missions in which Tails or Knuckles are playable, with them running slightly slower and lacking his athletics, but having their trademark skills.

Since the game is something of a free-roaming title, things have changed a little. There are save points scattered all around the island, that look like the checkpoints in Sonic Heroes. You can only save at a save point, but the game also auto-saves after a mission. Every time you turn the game on, you reload at said save point, with zero rings in hand, and five lives. Rings can be collected as normal and lost as normal (well actually you lose 10 rings with each hit), but every 100 rings you collect is cashed into your Ring Bank, which doesn't protect you and can't get lost by damage, but serve as currency. If you do lose all your in-hand Rings and die, you simply fall to the floor, fade away, and then re-spawn nearby with a life lost, but to lose all your lives causes cancellation of any current mission and you must reload (causing you to respawn at the nearest Save Point). Eventually you have the power to teleport between save points, allowing you to start from any of the points.

The island itself is laid out like one great big varied Mario 64/Sonic Adventure level, with free-roaming attributes but plenty of platforming areas, and no bottomless pits whatsoever. There's a volcano with explorable insides, fields, forests, a Green Hill-esque area, a big "city" in the stylings of this picture where anthromorphs, flickies and people live in harmony, a set of underwater tunnels that take on a Labyrinth Zone-esque appearance, and of course many other cliches like an ice world and Eggman's base. Aside from all of the normal areas, there are also plenty of mission specific "road in the sky" levels floating above the island to make the new fans feel at home, for traditional 3D Sonic linearity in missions. However, even if missions involve things like collecting flickies, they still retain speed due to the nature of the island's design and all of Sonic's different techniques. And by the way, when I say the island is big, I mean it; for a character that runs as fast as a car, he'll need an environment at least as big as GTA:SA to feel at home, but given the huge environments (unexplorable as they may be) that were created for Unleashed, that shouldn't be a problem. You can't access all of the island early on; areas become more open as you complete missions and get character upgrades (like the ones you get in SA/SA2). Eventually, absolutely everywhere you can see can be explored, an attribute of all great 3D games, and the island is at your whim.

Later on you can repeat missions. There are dozens of extra missions that can be done for extra content. There is also a Special Stage system; there are 7 big rings on the Island, each taking you to a special stage. The special stages are basically linear 3D stages but in another dimension, with a Chaos Emerald at the end. Collecting all of the emeralds activates an alternative ending. There are also "bonus stages" around the island, like Sonic 2-esque tube stages and Sonic Pool, and even recreations of Sonic 1 special stages, that are just for fun rather than emeralds.

There are lots of unlockables in this game. In the main City there is a large arcade. Over the course of the game you unlock arcade games, totalling up to about 50 classic 2D Sega arcade games that can be unlocked. Other unlockables include music, concept art, videos and more. A Chao system returns, with 3 Chao Garden's located on the island. The Chao Garden is essentially a self-contained experience, not linking up with any other Chao Gardens, but taking on the best qualities of all of them.

About that Chao Garden. Pretty much everything returns from other Chao games. There are three Chao Gardens across the island; Forest Garden, Beach Garden and Mountain Garden. You'll find special doors to these gardens across the island. Run through these doors and you'll find yourself in an unnaturally long tunnel. Run through the tunnel and you'll find the Garden. There are portals between them ala Sonic Adventure, and there are portals from all of them to the Chao Kindergarten ala Sonic Adventure 2. In the Black Market there are many new items like Top Hats. Chao's also have a more advanced gene system, something akin to the IV/EV system in Pokemon. Random Chao's that do not belong to you occassionally appear in the garden. Your Chao's can interact with them, but you can't feed/train them.

And of course, music. Some of it would be synth, some would be orchestrated, but all would be awesome, and possibly the music could interactively change as the gameplay changes. And aside from the new music for the new areas, there's a new feature - the SEGA Runman (parody of SONY Walkman). It's a portable music player that Sonic carries around with him. In the pause menu, you can activate it, and there are quick-access buttons on the pad that allow you to go through the songs on it mid-game. You obtain the Runman after completing the first few missions. It allows you to play different music over the regular game music if you don't like it. This music consists of bands/performers that have been associated (loosely or otherwise) with Sonic over the years, such as Michael Jackson, Dreams Come True, Bowling For Soup, Crush 40, Zebrahead, and of course, many remixes of SEGA (not just Sonic) songs old and new. You can also listen to any music you've got on your 360/PS3 hard-drive or Wii SD card.

Design-wise, it would keep character design as is, with little change (although smaller limbs and spikes would not be out of the question) and the story would have ONLY Eggman as the antagonist. Graphically the areas are colourful and varied like those of Unleashed, but with unnatural, geometrical looking foliage (trees, grass etc.) like the old games. Also, Badniks return. That's right, badniks. Not generic killbots, but unique, creative and varied robots with an animal theme, like we saw up until Sonic Adventure 2, and we've been seeing again in Rush Adventure. Focus would be on gameplay, with story only being there to give context to the missions, although there would be an epic story built up by the missions that is on par with the Adventure series. As far as voice acting goes, it would be minimal, but it would still exist, because I'd rather have bad voice acting (and it has been improving anyway) than no voice acting. Eggman and Tails would be the ones doing most of the talking, with Tails being the one briefing you on the missions and Eggman being... well, textbook Eggman. There few new characters, but many of the furry characters make a reappearance on the island as NPCs.

General NPCs appear like they do in Sonic Adventure or Mario 64 - pretty much just flat text dispensers giving you info. Outside of the main city, there are very few of these type on NPCs, because speaking to NPCs only slows things down. Other NPCs, like Knuckles, are far more interactive. Human NPCs are just like the humans from Unleashed, appearance-wise.

The story, I think, could be one of great detail. It would start as a story about anthro people, the intelligent animals that are frequent throughout the series. The backstory goes that anthros have existed for thousands of years in areas like Angel Island, but only in the last 200 years have they become intergrated into human society. However, even in those 200 years, society neglected to set solid rules on the rights and regulations of anthromorphs. The story begins with Eggman talking with the president and GUN commander, and then with Tails watching a news report featuring an interview with Eggman after supposed sightings of Sonic terrorising cities (although it's blatantly MS), and how Eggman has recently passed a law that he may capture any anthromorph for whatever reason he wants. The story involves you, as Sonic, working together with other animal characters, some who are brand-new, to escape being hunted. The story is complex like SA2 or Chronicles but humorous like Unleashed.

One other feature is time slowing. After you reach "top speed", you can continue to go faster if you hit boost pads and such, but not in the conventional sense - rather, time slows down around you and the screen disorts, but Sonic himself doesn't move any faster than his top speed.

One final feature of the game is weather. The game has a random weather generator that affects it. Rain, sun, clouds, lighting - every weather has a chance of occuring. Some weather effects do bugger all, like clouds, but some, like rain, affect gameplay by lowering traction on flat surfaces and changing the mood of Chao (some Chao love rain and some hate it). Of course, with a weather system comes a day/night system, in which every day is 24 minutes.

Overall it would be textbook Sonic, but on a great big, awesome island. Like if every Sonic Adventure stage was seamlessly connected with no loading screens, only twice as big, with more missions, no death pits and no invisible walls.

Hmm?

Edited May 27, 2009 by Gamenerd

[eXtaticus]

Party: Nope, I don't want more Mario Party-esque shite, thanks (though a Sonic-themed Dance Dance Revolution style game would be good, especially seeing as the game soundtracks are usually good).

RPG: It doesn't work. They've tried, and it was crap; not excactly up to the standard of Phantasy Star, and way to slow-paced to be called a Sonic game.

Racing: Yes, yes, YES!!! Sonic R FTW! Sequel please, Sega...

Strategy: No, for the same reason as RPG.

Shooter (Run'n'Gun/ FPS): Take a lesson from ShTH and just drop the gun. And the vehicle, for that matter...

Shooter (horizontal/vertical scrolling aircraft shooter): One of these in a Tornado varient would be nice, but only in 2D.

There, I think I covered them all...

[Badnik Zero]

RPG: It doesn't work. They've tried, and it was crap; not exactly up to the standard of Phantasy Star, and way too slow-paced to be called a Sonic game.

I don't get this attitude towards the series. Sonic is about moving fast, but the emphasis wasn't so heavy on speed in the past. That's a recent development. Also about RPGs and strategy games, especially when Sonic leaves the platformer genre for another slower genre, why does the emphasis STILL need to be on speed. It's obviously not the same type of Sonic game.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Badnikz

[Diogenes]

I think lacking speed is a valid complaint, to an extent...I'm more bothered by writing off the entire genre simply because they tried it once and it sucked.

[Rusty Spy]

I think lacking speed is a valid complaint, to an extent...I'm more bothered by writing off the entire genre simply because they tried it once and it sucked.

Does sound reasonable, the Mario RPGs still managed to incorporate some platforming elements into the mix to move about the over world.