You had it right 8 years ago...

[Cortez]

So I've been playing SA2 again and I've been paying alot of attention to the hunting missions, not so much the fact that you have to find things but the stage design. Its nice and open rather than the narrow, linear stages Sonic and Shadow have, alot like Mario 64. Perhaps this is what all Sonic stages should be like in 3D? Nice and open so you can run around without the fear of falling off the edge for going too fast. Since you'd be in an open area the task of finding the goal ring would be made obselete, in this case perhaps also adopting a mission system similar to Mario 64's would work? Complete a series of short, simple tasks to clear the stage. Does anybody else think this could work?

[Dr. Mechano]

I was one of those people who actually enjoyed the hunting and shooting stages quite a bit, actually.

I'd actually really like to see more open-ended stages like those again. Granted, I wouldn't phase out linear levels completely, but having some open-ended levels would be cool.

[Phos]

Pits are killing the franchise.

Not just pits, but they're a major contributor. http://sonicjam.wikidot.com/nssar:bottomless-pits

E: Oh wait, are you talking about the Hunting levels?

They need to combine them together, You're left with "Sonic CD 3D"

Edited April 11, 2009 by Phos

[CreamyBagel]

I loved playing the hunting stages, I thought they were really fun and I'd love to see them make a return to the series.

[Rusty Spy]

Pits are killing the franchise.

Not just pits, but they're a major contributor. http://sonicjam.wikidot.com/nssar:bottomless-pits

Why is Sonic the only franchise here who gets beaten with a stick for having bottomless pits? He's a platformer. of course he's gonna have bottomless pits! Granted, most games seem to overuse them but seriously, that's just complaining for the sake of complaining.

As for the topic at hand, putting Sonic in an open world environment pretty much kills the feeling of fluidity and smooth level progression that the series is known for. While maybe they can fit them in somewhere, but it'd be a big mistake to make the whole game like that.

[Solid SOAP]

The problem with the stages wasn't that they were open ended and big, it was that they were extremely boring with nothing to do. In Mario 64's open-ended levels there were characters to talk to, items to find, powers to get, in the treasure hunt levels in SA2 all there were was rings, enemies, and the emeralds. Not a lot of stuff to interact with, plus they were all ugly as sin, sporting the super "realistic" artstyle SA2 had.

[Phos]

Why is Sonic the only franchise here who gets beaten with a stick for having bottomless pits? He's a platformer. of course he's gonna have bottomless pits! Granted, most games seem to overuse them but seriously, that's just complaining for the sake of complaining.

Someone didn't read the article.

Simply put, Sonic isn't a regular platformer. Most platformers accelerate to their top speed and slow back down quickly enough that you directly control speed. Sonic is different, in Sonic games, the player controls acceleration. This makes pit hard to avoid if you don't know in advance where they are.

[Indigo Rush]

Am I the only one who's getting tired of seeing that Sonic Jam "Science of Sonic" article?

[Shiny Gems]

Am I the only one who's getting tired of seeing that Sonic Jam "Science of Sonic" article?

You are not alone. I even made a rant against one of those articles.

[Rusty Spy]

Someone didn't read the article.

Simply put, Sonic isn't a regular platformer. Most platformers accelerate to their top speed and slow back down quickly enough that you directly control speed. Sonic is different, in Sonic games, the player controls acceleration. This makes pit hard to avoid if you don't know in advance where they are.

That's more an issue with level design. Pits can work in the games if they are in places that are either easily noticeable as you approach them or in places where your not already running at high speed.

[Indigo Rush]

You are not alone. I even made a rant against one of those articles.

It's not that I don't agree with some of the things it has to say, the issue is that people treat it as gospel. There's more than one way to make a Sonic game you know.

In relevance to the topic, I think Sonic games should marry linearity with exploration. Kind of like Sonic Adventure with Sonic Unleashed, only bigger and more interactive. It should implement high speeds and some strategy to obtain it or even surpass it. I think it should have a clear get-to-the-goal objective, but needs way more than 2-3 routes. Each character should have a basic style of gameplay that is strictly Sonic based, and should have slight variation that can be subtle and dynamic in reaching these goals through the separate paths.

And of course the "mwop" sound when you jump. I miss that.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Indigo Artemis

[Phos]

I don't treat it as gospel (I actually disagree somewhat with his views on the Homing Attack), I just link to it so I don't have to write it again every time I want to say something that's already on that site. The first time I read it, it was like he was reading my mind. Pretty much the only thing that was new for me was the concept of pits punishing exploration, it was something I hadn't noticed before.

That's more an issue with level design. Pits can work in the games if they are in places that are either easily noticeable as you approach them or in places where your not already running at high speed.

You could, but anything that a pit can do some other hazard can do better. By replacing a pit with spikes, you have a more forgiving challenge without making it any easier to avoid. If you replace a pit with enemies, you now have a mobile threat. If you replace a pit with a stage specific hazard, you've added diversity.

And of course the "mwop" sound when you jump. I miss that.

You and me both. Edited April 11, 2009 by Phos

[Rusty Spy]

You could, but anything that a pit can do some other hazard can do better. By replacing a pit with spikes, you have a more forgiving challenge without making it any easier to avoid. If you replace a pit with enemies, you now have a mobile threat. If you replace a pit with a stage specific hazard, you've added diversity.

True, but that doesn't warrant ridding the whole series of pits. Reduce their abundance, most certainly.

[Indigo Rush]

I don't treat it as gospel (I actually disagree somewhat with his views on the Homing Attack), I just link to it so I don't have to write it again every time I want to say something that's already on that site. The first time I read it, it was like he was reading my mind. Pretty much the only thing that was new for me was the concept of pits punishing exploration, it was something I hadn't noticed before.

Don't worry, I wasn't trying to shine any light on you, you're not the only one who agrees with it. The problem I find is that people in places other than SSMB could go ape-crazy over that article, which contains gameplay elements that may not ever work in 3D.

Also, your views on the homing attack, IIRC you are against it? If so, why? I thought it was one of the best additions to the series. It may need to be powered down a little, sure, but it makes hopping on enemies at sonic-speed more simple and easy to accomplish. At least in 3D space.

[SuperStingray]

I'm perfectly fine with the pits being in the 3D games, given they're placed fairly. It's more of a problem in the 2D games.

And in all honesty, the treasure hunting and shooting in SA2 were what drew me into the series. The platforming is my favorite part of course, but if it was that alone, the game probably wouldn't have impacted me as much.

Also, your views on the homing attack, IIRC you are against it? If so, why? I thought it was one of the best additions to the series. It may need to be powered down a little, sure, but it makes hopping on enemies at sonic-speed more simple and easy to accomplish. At least in 3D space.

I think the homing attack is a great move (even as just a boost rather than an attack), especially in the way it's used in recent DLC levels for Unleashed (Day Act 5 of Spagonia and Day Acts 2-2 and 5 Holoska.) Edited April 11, 2009 by SuperStingray

[ovarloard]

I think Sonic's jumps need to be a lot more powerful, or go higher, or something like that. At the very least, SEGA could implement physics so that the jumps can be used more. The homing attack is nice for getting from place to place, but not as an attack.

Sonic's jumps in Unleashed were ridiculous. In the Wii version, jumping would completely slow Sonic down, unless you were boosting. Then it'd slow you down less, but it still slows you down.

On the subject of pits affecting exploration... It's possible to create a good platformer without the use of these. I hate 'em. But if nothing can be done about them...

[Phos]

I don't like the homing attack because it replaces the mid air part of Pinball Dynamics, it does this in two ways:

1. It automates the process of striking the enemy - this is traditionally something the player would be responsible for. Previous games often included enemies that had to be hit in a certain way in order to kill them, but with the Homing attack, you press A.

2. The bounce off of the enemy is along a predetermined trajectory - In the Genesis game, you can be travailing at an enemy at high speed, short hop such that you land on top of it, and then land without losing any speed. newer games present two barriers for doing this: The scripted bounce from the homing attack and the ridiculously low mid air speed cap.

Incidentally, removing the mid air speed cap also removes much of the need for the homing attack, as you can now correct you're trajectory to more easily hit enemies and land on platforms. With very few exceptions, whenever I miss landing on something in a 3D Sonic game, I always knew which way I needed to go, but was unable to correct my trajectory (I'm looking at you, Rooftop Run Act 2). Hitting smaller enemies or springs might be difficult in some circumstances, so there would still need to be some kind of aim assistance, my preferred method would be to keep the homing nature but remove the boost, and constrain it to the area that Sonic could have hit, which is now pretty big because being in the air doesn't slow him down so much.

[SuperStingray]

Since you'd be in an open area the task of finding the goal ring would be made obselete, in this case perhaps also adopting a mission system similar to Mario 64's would work? Complete a series of short, simple tasks to clear the stage. Does anybody else think this could work?

My belief is that if Mario 64 did it, then it WILL work. A mission system has been tried in the storybook series, but it doesn't feel the same. If it could capture Mario 64's style, then yes.

Incidentally, removing the mid air speed cap also removes much of the need for the homing attack, as you can now correct you're trajectory to more easily hit enemies and land on platforms. With very few exceptions, whenever I miss landing on something in a 3D Sonic game, I always knew which way I needed to go, but was unable to correct my trajectory (I'm looking at you, Rooftop Run Act 2). Hitting smaller enemies or springs might be difficult in some circumstances, so there would still need to be some kind of aim assistance, my preferred method would be to keep the homing nature but remove the boost, and constrain it to the area that Sonic could have hit, which is now pretty big because being in the air doesn't slow him down so much.

But won't that make Sonic harder to control in the air? To me, jumping is the best way to brake if I need to react quickly, and if he doesn't have a midair speed cap, then it would be harder to do that. 2D, I understand, but I feel removing the mid air speed cap and homing attack would generally hinder rather than help Sonic in a 3D environment. Edited April 12, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Tornado]

8 years ago? Hell, they had this:

Since you'd be in an open area the task of finding the goal ring would be made obselete, in this case perhaps also adopting a mission system similar to Mario 64's would work? Complete a series of short, simple tasks to clear the stage.

Done perfectly (ignoring the obvious brevity) 12 years ago. Arguably even before that...

Personally, aside from the camera issues and some control quirks, I never understood the hate piled onto the treasure hunting levels (though I admit that they did get a bit annoying by the end of Adventure 2). And I always loved the shooting levels.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Tornado

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Personally, aside from the camera issues and some control quirks, I never understood the hate piled onto the treasure hunting levels (though I admit that they did get a bit annoying by the end of Adventure 2). And I always loved the shooting levels.

Aside from the typical "it's not Sonic. I WANNA GO FAST, that's it..." logic, that's all there is to understand about it.

Funny given that that logic wasn't exactly that hardwritten in the fandom's head than it is today, given that many still regard it as one of the best out of the entire franchise. It's either that, or...I don't know what else.

Edited April 12, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SuperStingray]

And I always loved the shooting levels.

Your not alone. Even though my favorite levels were the main action stages, the shooting levels provided the most replay value to me of the three. I don't know why, they just felt the most arcadish.

[Phos]

But won't that make Sonic harder to control in the air? To me, jumping is the best way to brake if I need to react quickly, and if he doesn't have a midair speed cap, then it would be harder to do that. 2D, I understand, but I feel removing the mid air speed cap and homing attack would generally hinder rather than help Sonic in a 3D environment.

Wait, does jumping slow you down faster than screeching in Unleashed? Regardless,

it works pretty well to me. Keep in mind, he's playing with FPS controls (WASD move, mouse look). Edited April 12, 2009 by Phos

[SuperStingray]

Wait, does jumping slow you down faster than screeching in Unleashed? Regardless,

it works pretty well to me. Keep in mind, he's playing with FPS controls (WASD move, mouse look).

Hm. See, that works well on test fields, but I don't know how all of that would hold up in a real game. They certainly got the functions of the original engine down pat, but unless it can show me more natural feeling Sonic gameplay, it just seems very glidy and Super Monkey Ball-ish at times. Frankly, I think

would a better adaptive set of physics for a 3D Sonic environment. Granted, the use of boost pads in this example is abusive, but in terms of physics, I think that it hits a great balance of speed and platforming. Edited April 12, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Rusty Spy]

Hm. See, that works well on test fields, but I don't know how all of that would hold up in a real game. They certainly got the functions of the original engine down pat, but unless it can show me more natural feeling Sonic gameplay, it just seems very glidy and Super Monkey Ball-ish at times. Frankly, I think

would a better adaptive set of physics for a 3D Sonic environment. Granted, the use of boost pads in this example is abusive, but in terms of physics, I think that it hits a great balance of speed and platforming.

Both look great, but they both lack what the other has: A:DR looks like it has tighter controls but doesn't look like it has a heavy emphasis on physics and acts more like the main games in having loads of automated areas. On the other hand, the Damizean engine has great looking physics, but lacks the proper control in any area, such as turning and going through loops, etc.

[SuperStingray]

Both look great, but they both lack what the other has: A:DR looks like it has tighter controls but doesn't look like it has a heavy emphasis on physics and acts more like the main games in having loads of automated areas.

I must agree, except I didn't see too much automation in the ADR engine beyond the speed boosts; you can control yourself in the loops, IIRC. Edited April 12, 2009 by SuperStingray