SatBK: "For the fans"?

[-Mark-]

Well, it might just be me, but did anyone else think that SEGA/ Sonic Team put in a fair amount of effort to make SatBK 'for the fans'?

I mean, for a start, there's the whole issue with the fan art contest, which in itself is already a pretty impressive effort, moreso that it allowed for a lot of retro goodness to find its way into a modern game. In addition to that, we've got all the musical throwbacks to the older games, which seems like a nice touch for those who've stuck with the series for a while.

Finally, even some of the dialogue references the older games. I was really happy to hear Sonic mention the Biolizard fight from SA2 during the Dragon Slayer mission.

[Indigo Rush]

I think a game for the fans would be a playable one.

Okay, that was kind of harsh, but I understand what you're getting at. They certainly added a ton of fanservice in this title.

[-Mark-]

I knew someone would say something like that, but I wasn't expecting it in the first reply. D=

Yeah, I know nobody really asked for a game where Sonic has a sword, but yeah, I was really talking more in terms of fanservice.

[Diogenes]

Yes and no. Everything outside of the gameplay seemed to have more thought and effort put into it than most of the games in the last decade, and a fair bit of that was specifically at giving long-time fans a few nostalgic treats.

The problem is, well, the gameplay. Even if you think it's good (which I personally do not, frankly I think it's abysmal), it doesn't play at all like a Sonic game should. All the little extra bits don't mean shit if the actual game is horrible.

[Sega DogTagz]

Yes and no. Everything outside of the gameplay seemed to have more thought and effort put into it than most of the games in the last decade, and a fair bit of that was specifically at giving long-time fans a few nostalgic treats.

The problem is, well, the gameplay. Even if you think it's good (which I personally do not, frankly I think it's abysmal), it doesn't play at all like a Sonic game should. All the little extra bits don't mean shit if the actual game is horrible.

Agreed. I think the fanservice and production inputs were all just add-ons to make this game a fair purchase in the eyes of a Sonic Fan. There is no way anyone in the community would have called out for something like this from a gameplay perspective.

…. Okay, maybe there’s one guy, but he’s still the vast minority.

[Link451]

I also thought the fact they actually gave the option to turn off in gameplay dialogue and subtitles added to this. Considering I for one find them really annoying, and they've never gave the option before SatBK.

[DC111]

I'm with the minority, here - I thought the gameplay was addicting, especially after you leveled up enough to run faster and chain attacks together better. A little tiring at times, sure - but I honestly don't think it was poorly executed. And it may seem out of place in a Sonic game, but I no longer have the belief that all Sonic games are SUPPOSED to feel the same. *shrugs* Just my opinion.

Anyway, back on topic. I felt really - hm, what's a good word? - connected to this game. I didn't feel empty or bored when playing it, and I think it WAS because of the amount of thought put into this. The fanservice was a nice touch, and shows us that Sonic Team still remembers the 10% of the players who are - forgive the phrase - REAL Sonic fans. They still remember the handful of us who've been here since the Adventures or before.

Hearing 'It Doesn't Matter' in the Dark Queen scene, right after Sonic's "It wasn't about chivalry" line, made me squeal with delight. That was perfect - and perhaps one of the best moments in the game. And when he referenced SA2 during the dragon fight, I died. Like, literally, when he said that, I stopped paying attention to the dragon fight and went OMG... which resulted in me having to start the fight over again. It was awesome.

[SuperStingray]

I really didn't think the gameplay was that bad. There were some very cheap parts, but they were very rare and not mandatory to proceed in the story anyway; it inherited a lot of the problems present in Secret Rings. (Although it did fix some things like starting the game very slowly and the HORRIBLE rail jump issue.) But that said, the gameplay itself is relatively the worst aspect of the game compared to the others like the story, dialogue and music which, in my opinion, were all fantastic and some of the best Sonic has had to offer since SA1. As a whole, the game was much better than I expected considering it had a smaller budget and development cycle than Sonic Unleashed (at least as far as I know).

But I still think this game does have a fair share of fan service. The fan art, the legacy stages, the old theme remixes and even the chili dogs. I think it's really a sign that Sonic Team wants their old fans back, so while I'm trying not to be overly confident, I will say that they're trying harder to keep Sonic from going any further astray from his original games, even if they did decide to bring in the sword.

The fanservice was a nice touch, and shows us that Sonic Team still remembers the 10% of the players who are - forgive the phrase - REAL Sonic fans.

Don't say the magical curse words!

Edited March 27, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Blazey Firekitty]

I can't comment on the gameplay since I haven't played it yet, but I do like that they brought back the optional characters system from the Mega Drive/genesis days, as opposed to the "play as all characters to get the real ending" thing that Sonic Adventure and many games after it had.

[Blue Blood]

I can't comment on the gameplay since I haven't played it yet, but I do like that they brought back the optional characters system from the Mega Drive/genesis days, as opposed to the "play as all characters to get the real ending" thing that Sonic Adventure and many games after it had.

The problem with it is that the best way to play the game as Sonic is use his buzz saw attack to chain enemies without loosing much speed. The other characters don't have this, making their gameplay much less fun. What more is that some missions can't be completed as Knuckles cause he doesn't have a homing attack. At least he can glide through much of the stages, though that does leave the player with very little interaction. Being able to play as them only in a few stages is pointless. I can't understand why the stage limit wasn't lifted after completing the final boss.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Blue Blood

[Blazey Firekitty]

The problem with it is that the best way to play the game as Sonic is use his buzz saw attack to chain enemies without loosing much speed. The other characters don't hav this, mking their gameplay much less fun. What more is that some missions can't be completed as Knuckles cause he doesn't have a homing attack.

Really? The glide doesn't work?

I suppose the chasm might be too long for him to cross.;;

[SuperStingray]

The problem with it is that the best way to play the game as Sonic is use his buzz saw attack to chain enemies without loosing much speed. The other characters don't have this, making their gameplay much less fun. What more is that some missions can't be completed as Knuckles cause he doesn't have a homing attack. At least he can glide through much of the stages, though that does leave the player with very little interaction. Being able to play as them only in a few stages is pointless. I can't understand why the stage limit wasn't lifted after completing the final boss.

I actually prefer playing as Knuckles Gawain because of that boomerang sword move.

Edited March 27, 2009 by SuperStingray

[DC111]

Don't say the magical curse words!

Okay, okay, just don't 'beat me to a bloody pulp with a Genesis.' But you know what I mean. I figured saying a three-word phrase was quicker than saying 'the 10% of the players who've been here forever and will understand the references.'

[Blazey Firekitty]

I actually prefer playing as Knuckles Gawain because of that boomerang sword move.

Gotta love projectiles.

Regarding the stage limit with the non-sonic characters...I think it would have been fun for the Knights to fight against themselves in boss battles(Say, Lancelot vs. Lancelot), even though it wouldn't have made any sense.

[ovarloard]

Though SEGA somehow managed to pull the swordplay off IMO, I think that the gameplay itself was for the fans. Before Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic and a sword seemed like they definitely would not go well together. The rest of the game (the story, the extras, etc.) seemed like they were mostly "fanservice".

[JezMM]

I thought it was such a shame that so much effort was wasted on such a lame little spin-off. I mean it was fun, but this level of fanservice is the sort of thing that should have been in Unleashed. I guess they needed something to make it more Sonicy though considering how unSonicy the game was in gameplay.

[YoshiUnity]

I know that I can't speak for the whole fanbase here, so I'll just state what I believe.

Okay, I'll be honest here. I believe that S&TBK was indeed for the fans in terms of presentation and unlockables. As far as the gameplay is concern, that's when I'll say YES and NO.

Yes, because it's provides more to do in the experience than just running all day. The sword did have it's use for more than it's credited for. Providing wall-climbing challenges, used as a rudder when sliding and saving the characters when they are falling from a really thick cliff. Not the mention that each stage felt different in it's own way, providing different obstacles, traps and tasks reminding the player that running around won't solve all their problems, but not stopping them from attempting it... and possibly killing themselves. XP

Not to mention that it delivers a comfortable sense of speed, but it's not given to the player. If they want it, they have to earn it.

No, well... because of the swordplay. Yes, I enjoyed it, but as we all know, swordplay has absolutely nothing to do with Sonic games. A little more combat know-how is needed here, when confronting enemies. Even though you can just jump over most of them and keep on going, I'm under the impression that some fans don't want to avoid them. They want to fight, but wanted the options of using Sonic's regular moveset as well. (Too bad that would had made the sword seems as if it was tact on.) Just a simple homing or spin attack and move on.

Not to mention that Sonic only backsteps instead of walking backwards. I remember a couple of 2D alternate routes in the Titanic Plain "Perfect Run" challenge that did trigger a little 2D Sonic-gameplay joy in me. However, that only happened when I moved forward, not backward. Once again, I did not have a problem with this mechanic, but I do understand why some individuals complain about it.

And do I need to mention the Culture Shock? No, I don't.

On a positive note, I really like the Sir Gawain gameplay the most. Beside being a Knuckles Fan, the gameplay felt very close to how he should play. Almost as if he never had the swords in the first place.

Now did the fanbase/common gamers actually accepted this game as good or not? Well... Like I said in one of my earlier post, the reaction of this game seems more mixed up than Secret Rings. Good? Bad? WTF?!! O_o It's about as mixed as an old bag of mixed nuts... (Literally in some cases. ZING! XP)

Edited March 28, 2009 by YoshiUnity

[Yong]

I'd say no. The game pretty much threw out everything that was good about the previous games and mixed what was left with waggle sword. And contary to what everyone else thinks, I found the Legacy stages to be an insult. Because they just showed that while they could have made "this" game, they made THIS game instead.

[speedfreak]

I'm a huge Sonic fan and I hated the game. Fan service is nice but if the gameplay sucks it doesn't mean shit.

[Candescence]

I enjoyed Black Knight for what it is, sword or not, and the fanservice was appreciated. Even if the swordplay wasn't "Sonic-y", I couldn't care less, it was better combat system than any 3D game prior, especially the bloody homing attack, and it was an interesting experiment into what could be done as a combat system, if you replaced the sword with Sonic's spines.

[-Mark-]

You know, the funny thing is, apart from the bosses that were pretty much actual sword fights), most of the 'regular' sword moves would have worked about the same even without the sword.

[JezMM]

I'd say no. The game pretty much threw out everything that was good about the previous games and mixed what was left with waggle sword. And contary to what everyone else thinks, I found the Legacy stages to be an insult. Because they just showed that while they could have made "this" game, they made THIS game instead.

I actually found the Legacy stages less fun than the regular ones and ridiculously easy. For that reason I found them an insult because I unlocked them thinking "Yay some platforming!" But nope, it was more of "Oh, doing homing attacks on unthreatening enemies".

It sure was nice seeing actual rings in the stages though... The fairies idea still baffles me... especially considering SatSR had springs, zippers and rings and they didn't feel out of place.

[-Mark-]

Actually, fairies would have been MORE in context in Secret Rings, you'd think.

Then again, maybe the items would look a bit out of place in terms of the scenery in SatBK.

[ovarloard]

It sure was nice seeing actual rings in the stages though... The fairies idea still baffles me... especially considering SatSR had springs, zippers and rings and they didn't feel out of place.

They did have it in places such as Faraway Avalon's "Collect 350 Ring Chains".

Then again, maybe the items would look a bit out of place in terms of the scenery in SatBK.

In some stages, yes. But the faries were brightly colored as well.

And from what I saw in the Legacy stages, the rings and springs and enemy-things didn't actually stand out too much. It seemed to fit better in Black Knight than in Secret Rings.

[Blue Blood]

Then again, maybe the items would look a bit out of place in terms of the scenery in SatBK.

In which case, that's a fault with the artistic style of SatBK. The Fairies and such annoyed me because they could have been adapted dash pannels and regular rings. The artisic style for the levels though isn't such a biggie because it's not a Sonic game- it's a Sonic spin-off game. It's supposed to be different.