Sonic and Eggman - Pre-Sonic 1

[Dr. Mechano]

The Japanese manual to Sonic the Hedgehog makes it quite clear that the first game in the series is not Sonic's and Eggman's first battle.

The malevolent gifted scientist, Dr. Eggman, prepares his bad intentions again:

"Sonic... This impertinent, this contrary hedgehog; he hopes that my bigger projects are always annihilated. But this time, my strength that resides in my intellect will crush him! Ha ha ha ha..."

"Dr. Eggman, not again, him?!" Hearing rumors circulating on South Island, Sonic ran. Dr. Eggman thinks that Sonic is his deadly enemy, but Sonic does not really account of his adversary. However when Sonic arrived on South Island, a strange spectacle was held before Sonic.

The gist is this; Prior to Sonic 1, Dr. Eggman had tried to take over before, apparently many times, only to be easily dispatched by Sonic, who by the time of Sonic 1 really didn't take Eggman seriously as a villain. Yet Eggman's scheme to acquire the Chaos Emeralds with his new line of robots (The manual also indicates this is the first time he used animal-powered robots) greatly surprises and impresses Sonic, who sees this new evil scheme as much more formiddable than Eggman's old attempts at global domination.

I'm incredibly curious about Sonic's and Eggman's interaction prior to the robot armies, the doomsday weapons, and the fight over the Chaos Emeralds. What were Eggman's older schemes for world domination? How did the hero and villain originally meet one another? How did their classic rivalry develop over time, culminating in the events of Sonic 1 and leading into the game series?

Would you like to see an official fleshing-out of this concept, perhaps via flashbacks, or even a game set prior to Sonic 1 in the overall timeline? Or perhaps you have some speculations to contribute about the two founding characters prior to their first official game? I think this will be a good topic to discuss just that.

Personally, the idea of Eggman's clumsy foray into villainy as a lone supervillain using comical gadgets to commit petty crimes is incredibly amusing. Without a robot army yet, the man's schemes were probably just him and a few inventions in a bold attempt to take over South Island. Not the most impressive start of a villainous career to be sure, but it sounds like something I'd personally love to see.

I think this will be a good topic.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Dr. Mechano

[Marcello]

I'd like to see that game, but I don't see it happening. At least not at the moment. As the stage enemies I think they would just be egg pawns.

The main reason I would like it, is because I'd like to hear this:

Eggman: Wh..Who are YOU?

Sonic: I'm Sonic. Sonic the Hedgehog!

MAybe Sonic could also call him a name like Fatman or Robuttnik XD.

[Dr. Mechano]

I'd like to see that game, but I don't see it happening. At least not at the moment. As the stage enemies I think they would just be egg pawns.

Remember, Badniks (And especially later models like Egg Pawns) don't exist yet. The Sonic 1 manual made a big to-do about Eggman's "new" army of robots, using the never-before-used tactic of using animals.

I imagine it was just Eggman, some bizarre contraptions, and maybe some hired henchmen to help out with things. Because of this, a "game" proper probably wouldn't work, due to the relatively smaller number of enemies- Still, a flashback or allusion to the old days of Eggman's foray into villainy could be cool.

[Flyboy Fox]

I can't see Eggman ever having henchmen. Even the bit of translated info there has the gist of a standalone villain wanting to be noticed. I'd imagine that his dastardly deeds of the past were still a one-man affair.

[Mike]

Eggman asked his mom if he could be President one day.

She said yes and it all went downhill from there.

[Octarine]

As long as it didn't reflect too much on Sonic's past (beyond his early battles with Eggman, obviously - just don't show us his parents or give him a tragic backstory!), I'd love for that era of the series to be explored in more detail.

Hm... while I can't picture Eggman with his own Snively, I can certainly see him partnering up temporarily with other minor villains or mercenaries if it suited him. That's been sort of a gimmick for him during the series, what with Knuckles, Fang, Shadow, Rouge, various gods and demigods... perhaps Eggman himself was some sort of henchman, at least for a while, to a more serious villain.

[psikeout]

Hm... while I can't picture Eggman with his own Snively, I can certainly see him partnering up temporarily with other minor villains or mercenaries if it suited him. That's been sort of a gimmick for him during the series, what with Knuckles, Fang, Shadow, Rouge, various gods and demigods... perhaps Eggman himself was some sort of henchman, at least for a while, to a more serious villain.

Yeah, I think it's in Eggman's character to have people helping him, as long as he's still the one who feels totally in control. As long as Eggman feels like the smart one who's playing everyone else off as a fool, and as long as he feels that all the credit for the actions of his underlings can be directly attributed to him, I think he'd be perfectly okay with henchmen. I just imagine that at this point, he feels that his own creations are superior to any common hired help. (i.e. Chaos was a force of nature that he "tamed," while Shadow might as well have been a family heirloom weapon.)

I wouldn't be surprised if it was the failure of hired help that pushed him further and further into perfecting his full-fledged robot armies.

[Nemain]

I'd also like to see what it was that made Eggman into the evil scientist he is today. What events occured, what was the lure to using his intellect for his own gain, and how did he and Sonic become incorporated as rivals over the whole thing? Certainly the tactic of using animals in the Badniks in Sonic 1 was a big step forward in terms of what Eggman would do to get his wish, but it does make you wonder what happened before and what was tried first in order for such a step to have been taken.

EDIT: @psikeout: Taking things into his own hands after the failure of a co-operation... Certainly a plausible idea for the transformation of his robot armies. Minions that do his bidding rather than relying on someone else. Having said that, he does indeed always seem willing to accept help so long as it benefits him and he gets credit for all the actions done... If they're successful, of course.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Nemain

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I've no desire to see any "origins" story of the pre-Sonic-1 type. The ambiguity of what and why Sonic and Eggman are what they are is largely what allows them to be all things to all people (well, OK... allows them to remain just about acceptable to most of our lovely broken fanbase). Which is not something I'd care to see jeprodised.

Now, a game that looks like it could take place pre-S1 is another matter. Sonic and Robotnik fighting their way through some trippy South Island-esque levels one-on-one might work...?

[Blazey Firekitty]

On the subject of Eggman having henchman: I kind of liked Grimer from the Fleetway comics. He seemed like a loyal, happy version of Snively from SatAM and Archie, and given a less grotesque physical design, he'd probably fit into the game continuity just find, giddily running errands for Eggman.

[Tori Himemiya]

Hmmmmm..... You never know how these sort of things started. Maybe Sonic bumped into Eggman while he was off doing research. Or Eggman was eating and Sonic took his food. But it's more likely Sonic stopped him from attempting to take over the world.

If they pick up Sonic and Eggman's back story they better write it right....

[Dr. Mechano]

I can't see Eggman ever having henchmen.

Shadow and Rouge were basically that to a tee in SA2; Sure, they were both plotting to stab him (And each other) in the back, but other than that were basically "Eggman's henchmen" in that story, assisting him in global domination.

It seems probable that Eggman could've rounded up some local ruffians to stir up trouble and further his goals before he went with the full army approach with robots.

[psikeout]

I've no desire to see any "origins" story of the pre-Sonic-1 type. The ambiguity of what and why Sonic and Eggman are what they are is largely what allows them to be all things to all people (well, OK... allows them to remain just about acceptable to most of our lovely broken fanbase). Which is not something I'd care to see jeprodised.

To be honest, this is true of almost anything related to developing the cast of characters. If we thought the things we discussed would ever actually be approached or attempted by Sega, then we'd probably be afraid to ever discuss anything again. That said, I believe this is just something fun to talk about, but not to ever really wish for. We all know Sega/Sonic Team would just bungle it up like almost everything else story- or character-related in recent history.

EDIT: It just dawned on me that could come across wrong. I mostly mean that it's true that it's impossible to please anyone, so any action in character development would be a screw-up. (Although I personally believe Sonic Team has an incredible propensity to do things poorly anyway.)

Edited November 19, 2009 by psikeout

[Flyboy Fox]

Shadow and Rouge were basically that to a tee in SA2; Sure, they were both plotting to stab him (And each other) in the back, but other than that were basically "Eggman's henchmen" in that story, assisting him in global domination.

I guess maybe your definition of 'henchmen' is different from mine, then. I'm thinking grunts, subordinates, footmen. Shadow and Rouge had their own agendas and would never have considered themselves to be yes-men. While I can't imagine Robotnik tolerating a load of grunts with far inferior intellects to himself, I can see him obtaining temporary 'allies'. Which to me isn't the same thing as henchmen at all.

[Phos]

I really don't care what Robotnik was up to before Sonic 1. I don't really care to see anything pre Sonic 1. Giving either one an origin story would be a terrible idea.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Phos

[Blazey Firekitty]

I really don't care what Robotnik was up to before Sonic 1. I don't really care to see anything pre Sonic 1. Giving either one an origin story would be a terrible idea.

How so?

[Dr. Mechano]

I guess maybe your definition of 'henchmen' is different from mine, then. I'm thinking grunts, subordinates, footmen. Shadow and Rouge had their own agendas and would never have considered themselves to be yes-men. While I can't imagine Robotnik tolerating a load of grunts with far inferior intellects to himself, I can see him obtaining temporary 'allies'. Which to me isn't the same thing as henchmen at all.

He respected them and all, but they weren't on his level; There was an understanding that this plan was for Eggman to rule the world, not for the three of them to conquer the world together and rule equally. Perhaps Eggman would give them a position of power under him, but not share it.

Oddly, Eggman seemed to be the only member of SA2's Team Dark that wasn't plotting to betray the other two, now that I think about it. Poor old trusting Eggman; As bad a rap as Knuckles gets, Eggman's far more baselessly trustworthy of people on a regular basis.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Oddly, Eggman seemed to be the only member of SA2's Team Dark that wasn't plotting to betray the other two, now that I think about it. Poor old trusting Eggman; As bad a rap as Knuckles gets, Eggman's far more baselessly trustworthy of people on a regular basis.

Hmm, I don't know a lot about Sonic X at this point, but didn't they get back together with Eggman to reform Team Dark during the Metarex saga? I find it interesting that that continuity may be the only one where they had a genuinely sincere partnership.

[Dr. Mechano]

Hmm, I don't know a lot about Sonic X at this point, but didn't they get back together with Eggman to reform Team Dark during the Metarex saga? I find it interesting that that continuity may be the only one where they had a genuinely sincere partnership.

This is true. In X they formed an alliance and stuck together until the end of the series, where they went their separate ways (Well, Shadow apparently died again, which would be a running gag if it weren't played so seriously at this point).

No such reunion has ever happened in the games though, barring the occasional "save the world" truces to fight the cosmic horror of the day.

[Phos]

How so?

Does Beowulf have an origin story? Did Bob Gale feel the need to give Doc Brown an origin story? Did Doctor Seuss give the Grinch an origin? No, and when Hollywood gave him one, it was retarded. Sonic, who among other things is the personification of speed, is much better off without one.

[Blazey Firekitty]

This is true. In X they formed an alliance and stuck together until the end of the series, where they went their separate ways (Well, Shadow apparently died again, which would be a running gag if it weren't played so seriously at this point).

No such reunion has ever happened in the games though, barring the occasional "save the world" truces to fight the cosmic horror of the day.

Heh, cool(Well, except for Shadow dying again, which seems a little pointless).

I guess one of the biggest differences between X and the games was that X actually gave Eggman a relatively wide circle of friends.

Does Beowulf have an origin story? Did Bob Gale feel the need to give Doc Brown an origin story? Did Doctor Seuss give the Grinch an origin? No, and when Hollywood gave him one, it was retarded. Sonic, who among other things is the personification of speed, is much better off without one.

I'll agree that an awful origin can cause problems, but I don't feel that a retroactive origin has to be bad as long as it's consistent with the way the character is in the present.

[Tornado]

I'll agree that an awful origin can cause problems, but I don't feel that a retroactive origin has to be bad as long as it's consistent with the way the character is in the present.

But even assuming it was handled well, it is an unnecessary thing to do. There is no reason that Sonic needs to have his origins explained, particularly not for a series that largely tends to be forward thinking in terms of story; and doing so would, no matter how well handled, ruin a part of Sonic and Eggman's character.

That being said, I wouldn't object to a game that took place before Sonic 1, if only to allow a bit of nifty foreshadowing; but as far as the whole "How Eggman met Sonic" thing goes the series would be much better off without one.

[Blazey Firekitty]

But even assuming it was handled well, it is an unnecessary thing to do. There is no reason that Sonic needs to have his origins explained, particularly not for a series that largely tends to be forward thinking in terms of story; and doing so would, no matter how well handled, ruin a part of Sonic and Eggman's character.

But which part of their character? I don't say that in a rhetorical or sarcastic manner, I'm sincerely curious.

I personally don't understand why it would be important to keep characters mysterious. Granted, this is a series about change and moving forward, but, ironically, it's also a series that seems to get a lot of complaints about characters having personalities that stagnate and don't go anywhere.

[batson]

Hmm, I don't know a lot about Sonic X at this point, but didn't they get back together with Eggman to reform Team Dark during the Metarex saga? I find it interesting that that continuity may be the only one where they had a genuinely sincere partnership.

Of course, sadly, the "Shadow, Eggman and Rouge"-dynamic seen in SA2 will without a doubt never be seen again in the games, due to the existence of Omega.