Consequences of a Dreamcast-Era Split

[Multikaris]

I wonder what would happen if Sonic Team decided to split the Dreamcast era from the Modern era, be it to either spawn a new sub-series or to simply bury those games more or less. For one thing, this would cut a lot of cruft from the Modern era that Sonic Team are already ignoring at this point; from Gizoids to G.U.N., and perhaps allow the Modern branch to try and find an identity and clean itself up. It would also mean that several character interactions will likely become impossible. Due to Sonic Team only really keeping around some characters for meme value (Silver, Big, Vector), or to fill space (Rouge, Omega, Espio, Charmy, Blaze), this might mean they may get their limelight again, yet at the same time allowing Modern to embrace Zavok. How else could a Dreamcast Era split and revival be handled? Where would games like Unleashed and Forces land, due to having strong elements of both eras? (Unleashed's human world and kaiju beasts, Forces and Infinite) 

[DabigRG]

We'd lose the chance of seeing many of the recurring characters often again. So, uh, another reason to don't do it.

On characters like Cream and Zavok being used more and/or better, that's always been on SEGA themselves. Similar thing with the human world and many of the monsters of the week(and Infinite) seldom showing up again.

[Diogenes]

I can't imagine it would amount to much. The modern games wouldn't be obligated to change; they don't really lose anything in a split, except possibly things they've discarded already. And I can't really imagine a "Dreamcast dimension" game being that much different from a Modern dimension game. They might ditch the boost, but it'd still be mostly the same characters, mostly the same aesthetics, mostly the same storytelling style. And if it was still Sonic Team making it, they'd be fucking things up just the same as with the Modern games.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

29 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

We'd lose the chance of seeing many of the recurring characters often again.

How that any different than right now, though? Sure, we saw them all in Forces, but that was the first time in a long while that'd we'd seen anyone else in a main game and they didn't really do much.

[MetalSkulkBane]

4 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

 try and find an identity

Artificially splitting franchise into third branch is not good way to find identity.

It causes chaos, confusion and disappointments in regards of comic where some elements are restricted.

Just make games one at the time, each leaning to direction developer feels is most fitting, without putting pointless restrictions.

[Zaysho]

4 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

For one thing, this would cut a lot of cruft from the Modern era that Sonic Team are already ignoring at this point; from Gizoids to G.U.N., and perhaps allow the Modern branch to try and find an identity and clean itself up.

You don't have to play every single card in your hand. We saw what happened when Sonic Team did that already, and the results were bloated, unfocused, and, frankly, insulting to anyone who remotely cares about this series' world and characters. "Dreamcast" is "Modern". This sort of arbitrary split isn't going to bring up the quality of one or even guarantee the other will see any use again. Elements like GUN and the Gizoids are part of the series' history and worldbuilding, and they're there if they are needed to draw upon from the background.

The problem isn't the series or these elements, it's the people working on it.

[DabigRG]

8 hours ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

How that any different than right now, though? Sure, we saw them all in Forces, but that was the first time in a long while that'd we'd seen anyone else in a main game and they didn't really do much.

Because then they could be cut off more or less officially, without even the possibility. 

 

Much like how Mighty, Ray, and the Hooligans are restricted from IDW despite comics being what kept them in the limelight. 

[Multikaris]

17 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I can't imagine it would amount to much. The modern games wouldn't be obligated to change; they don't really lose anything in a split, except possibly things they've discarded already. And I can't really imagine a "Dreamcast dimension" game being that much different from a Modern dimension game. They might ditch the boost, but it'd still be mostly the same characters, mostly the same aesthetics, mostly the same storytelling style. And if it was still Sonic Team making it, they'd be fucking things up just the same as with the Modern games.

1. You may look around at the scenery in a game like Adventure 2 compared to Lost World. There’s a marked difference in colors, shapes, and details between them. Dreamcast era games are more detailed than the later ones. The modern era, especially from Forces onwards, has been  animated very stiffly. Adventure games had a lot of exaggerated facial expressions not present in the Modern games. Not to mention perhaps taking more cues from official art of the era ala Mania. 

2. Mostly the same storytelling style? Ha! Where’s the “Baldy McNosehair” in those games? Or the general detachment? I admit some games like Unleashed and Forces are closer to the Dreamcast era, but no cigar.  

3. True, true. 

[Diogenes]

Just now, Miragnarok said:

1. You may look around at the scenery in a game like Adventure 2 compared to Lost World.

Okay, now compare Heroes to Forces.

Just now, Miragnarok said:

2. Mostly the same storytelling style? Ha! Where’s the “Baldy McNosehair” in those games? Or the general detachment? I admit some games like Unleashed and Forces are closer to the Dreamcast era, but no cigar.

Losing the one joke everyone constantly harps on wouldn't change much. The tone isn't entirely the same but it'd still be cutscenes that are 90% characters talking at each other sandwiched between levels which only barely elaborate on the story.

[Wraith]

These Sonic games weren't conceived to be broken up into their own worlds/timelines and trying to make it so only muddles the "lore" even further than it helps it.

[Multikaris]

57 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Okay, now compare Heroes to Forces.

Losing the one joke everyone constantly harps on wouldn't change much. The tone isn't entirely the same but it'd still be cutscenes that are 90% characters talking at each other sandwiched between levels which only barely elaborate on the story.

1. Heroes is still comparatively more detailed.

2. Except for the character development and dynamic camera angles and sad moments and backstories and little introspective moments and characters talking WITH each other and more interactions and stuff like that. 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

1. Heroes is still comparatively more detailed.

Not by a significant amount. Both Modern and Dreamcast have covered a range of styles and if you're actually looking at the whole rather than cherrypicking the ones convenient for your argument they're not all that different, certainly not enough to justify splitting them.

3 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

2. Except for the character development and dynamic camera angles and sad moments and backstories and little introspective moments and characters talking WITH each other and more interactions and stuff like that. 

All of these things exist in the Modern games. Maybe not in the exact same form or to the exact same extent, but again the two are not so different that they should be split.

[Patron]

Heroes was detailed for it's time.

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Patron said:

Heroes was detailed for it's time.

Doggonit, I just realized what I'm looking at.

 

25 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

2. Except for the character development and dynamic camera angles and sad moments and backstories and little introspective moments and characters talking WITH each other and more interactions and stuff like that. 

Here's a genuine question: What's the character development and introspective moments in Heroes?

[StaticMania]

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Here's a genuine question: What's the character development and introspective moments in Heroes?

Rouge: Hey Omega, did I ever tell you that Shadow's a robot?

E-123 Omega: Well if Shadow's a robot, he must be a clone-bot.

Rouge: Whatever, dude...not telling Shadow though.

E-123 Omega: Okay, bye.

It was deep and stuff.

[DabigRG]

Just now, StaticMania said:

Rouge: Hey Omega, did I ever tell you that Shadow's a robot?

E-123 Omega: Well if Shadow's a robot, he must be a clone-bot.

Rouge: Whatever, dude...not telling Shadow though.

E-123 Omega: Okay, bye.

The correlation of that line was always a little weird.

Thanks for the sad moment?

[StaticMania]

You Are Welcome.

[thumbs13]

5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Here's a genuine question: What's the character development and introspective moments in Heroes?

When Big was so sad he couldn't find Froggy and wanted to go home, I shed a tear.

But in general, Heroes had few sad moments aside from the team dark one.

[Multikaris]

On 3/4/2019 at 7:48 PM, thumbs13 said:

When Big was so sad he couldn't find Froggy and wanted to go home, I shed a tear.

But in general, Heroes had few sad moments aside from the team dark one.

Yeah, Heroes is an exception, but things like the character involvement and pacing are more Adventure. 

It almost brings me back to the days when Heroes and Unleashed’s stories weren’t so hailed and were often explored as being rather flawed. Now we have quite a bit worse going on, with Colors and Forces being Classic and Dreamcast plots with the nutritional value sucked out, and Lost World being... a mid-level Bad SpongeBob episode, not to mention the anniversary commemoration victory laps.

 

I don’t think this split is that necessary anymore, given how TSR is shaping up. 

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

It almost brings me back to the days when Heroes and Unleashed’s stories weren’t so hailed and were often explored as being rather flawed. Now we have quite a bit worse going on, with Colors and Forces being Classic and Dreamcast plots with the nutritional value sucked out, and Lost World being... a mid-level Bad SpongeBob episode, not to mention the anniversary commemoration victory laps.

 

Did most of the Classics really have that much going on to begin with?

Also, people didn't like Unleashed's story?

[Dr. Detective]

I'm sat here trying to think of a response but my brain keeps frying at the concept of seriously trying to navigate the sheer geographical chaos of the hypothetical narrative flow-chart that would come about as a result of splitting things up yet again.

Classic Sonic's from the past but not really. He's from another dimension. All the stuff that the current games gleam from Classic Sonic happened but not in the same way it happened in Classic Sonic's era. Also, some of the games take place on the human world and some take place on Sonic's world. Turns out they don't co-exist. On top of that, the Modern Sonic games are also split between "Dreamcast" and "Modern" so now some Dreamcast games that we thought took place on one world actually took place in the human world and some took place on Sonic's world and vice-versa for some of the Modern games. Navigate and understand all that and you're ready to be a Sonic fan.

If we keep splitting things apart instead of enacting ways to help what already exists flow from game to game better, I may actually become one of the people who opts for nuking the entire canon and starting over. I don't like the idea of the last couple decades meaning nothing, so I don't really want to do that but it would really be at odds with itself to the point of no return were that to happen.

They're telling simple stories with little to no substance but have this super complicated structure for how Sonic's world is supposed to exist within itself. I almost can't comprehend how we got to this point.

What's worse is that all that stuff Iizuka said about the world splitting and the two eras is pretty easy to ignore. It's not even like the games do anything to help make it clear that's what's happening. They throw in two lines of Classic Sonic being from another dimension but contradict themselves by having Sonic and the others remember him from Generations where he was from the past.

God. It makes my stomach ache.

 

[Shadowlax]

On 3/4/2019 at 2:04 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Artificially splitting franchise into third branch is not good way to find identity.

It causes chaos, confusion and disappointments in ragards of comic where some elements are restricted.

Just make games one at the time, each leaning to direction developer feels is most fitting, without putting pointless restrictions.

The issue with this logic is , its totally fine to do it. Makes sense for sonic as a brand, they have already started doing this, andd brands do this shit all the time. There like 4 different versions of superman or batman running around. There is a teen titans go cartoon, and a teen titans live action show with murder.

Separating franchise braches based on interest is fine, if the interests are so diverse than that you would make more money catering to them separately. And I personally think the would. I grew up in the adventure era, so i'm not someone who started with unleashed or nothing. But I figure they might not be fond of if a bunch of adventure-ey shit started showing up in their games. Same for folks if any classic sonic stuff kept coming out.

Clearly these are different audiences,

[batson]

16 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'm sat here trying to think of a response but my brain keeps frying at the concept of seriously trying to navigate the sheer geographical chaos of the hypothetical narrative flow-chart that would come about as a result of splitting things up yet again.

Classic Sonic's from the past but not really. He's from another dimension. All the stuff that the current games gleam from Classic Sonic happened but not in the same way it happened in Classic Sonic's era. Also, some of the games take place on the human world and some take place on Sonic's world. Turns out they don't co-exist. On top of that, the Modern Sonic games are also split between "Dreamcast" and "Modern" so now some Dreamcast games that we thought took place on one world actually took place in the human world and some took place on Sonic's world and vice-versa for some of the Modern games. Navigate and understand all that and you're ready to be a Sonic fan.

If we keep splitting things apart instead of enacting ways to help what already exists flow from game to game better, I may actually become one of the people who opts for nuking the entire canon and starting over. I don't like the idea of the last couple decades meaning nothing, so I don't really want to do that but it would really be at odds with itself to the point of no return were that to happen.

They're telling simple stories with little to no substance but have this super complicated structure for how Sonic's world is supposed to exist within itself. I almost can't comprehend how we got to this point.

What's worse is that all that stuff Iizuka said about the world splitting and the two eras is pretty easy to ignore. It's not even like the games do anything to help make it clear that's what's happening. They throw in two lines of Classic Sonic being from another dimension but contradict themselves by having Sonic and the others remember him from Generations where he was from the past.

God. It makes my stomach ache.

 

Yeah, Sonic's universe as of Sega's current canon is a complete mess. I'll never be able to get over the fact that we are now supposed to accept that the Classic games didn't even happen in the same universe as the modern games...

Sigh, it makes me nostalgic for the days when the biggest continuity screw-up we had to wrap our heads around was the whole "is Blaze from the future or from the Sol dimension"-thing. That issue seems downright quaint compared to what we have to deal with now.