Boost Sonic is the only way to make 3D Sonic.

[EdsonBubsy]

I'm going to be a bit controversial here but Boost Sonic is the only direction 3D Sonic can take to make a good game, before you say anything though keep in mind Colors/Generations/Forces are de-evolutions of unleashed.

Think about it, the boost Formula in Unleashed was praised massively and unlike the "aged worse with time" gameplay a lot of people place on the Adventure games (in fact for Adventure 2 it had 'aged badly over time" 1 year after its original release, yowzers.) and of course Lost World didn't work and Heroes was a very limited type of gameplay implementations that proved you couldn't use it for a solo sonic adventure (see shadow).

However the Boost Stages in Sonic Unleashed are praised to this day, they also have the most 3D sections of the Boost games and it has the most "open" and flexible levels while the other games that use boost seem to be locked on a racetrack and you don't really do anything at all so they seem to try and break this trend by shoving a lot of 2D sections which of course makes the "classic" sonic in generations and Forces quite a bit irrelevant.

All they really have to do is improve a formula they refuse to improve and that's Sonic Unleashed implementation of the boost formula and the stage design/gimmicks around it. Some Sonic Fans bring up the boost formula as if its limited or that it's been done and they can't improve it. Actually they haven't improved it at all, each "boost" game after Unleashed is worse than the one before in terms of flexibility, control, and generally being in 3D.

[JezMM]

21 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

I'm going to be a bit controversial here

This here is you admitting your entire post is just your opinion to be honest.  Sonic Unleashed is my favourite Sonic game and I'd love to see another boost game that has it's level of freedom/complexity/difficulty, but it's not the only way to do Sonic in 3D, and it's definitely not the only way forward to build from it - even though ideally I'd love a Sonic game that meets some kind of happy middle-ground between it and the physics-play of the classic titles.

It seems you're aware of the criticisms levelled against boost gameplay (which has never been universally praised in any game it appeared in - apart from maybe Colours came close, which was of course the most neutered iteration of it) but have dismissed them from the off, so not sure where this discussion can go really.

[EdsonBubsy]

10 minutes ago, JezMM said:

This here is you admitting your entire post is just your opinion to be honest.  Sonic Unleashed is my favourite Sonic game and I'd love to see another boost game that has it's level of freedom/complexity/difficulty, but it's not the only way to do Sonic in 3D, and it's definitely not the only way forward to build from it - even though ideally I'd love a Sonic game that meets some kind of happy middle-ground between it and the physics-play of the classic titles.

It seems you're aware of the criticisms levelled against boost gameplay (which has never been universally praised in any game it appeared in - apart from maybe Colours came close, which was of course the most neutered iteration of it) but have dismissed them from the off, so not sure where this discussion can go really.

General consensus from players and reviewers is Unleashed had the best quality of the 3D Sonics, thus it is fair to assume that actually improving that formula could lead to a highly rated 3D sonic game as Sonic team has proven their other new ideas are poorly implemented and their older ones like the Adventure Formula have issues and even when they were new and praised, it was nowhere near as high. Especially over time.

The criticisms of the boost gameplay, most of them, come from the games after Unleashed, which don't use the boost gameplay the same and gimp it. So you can barely call them iterations.

[Tracker_TD]

10 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

General consensus from players and reviewers is Unleashed had the best quality of the 3D Sonics,

Rewriting history is a real fun pastime, but in arguments it's not particularly recommended. 

[Diogenes]

Unleashed Day isn't good, it's just the least bad boost game. It's still incredibly shallow, heavily automated, and too costly to make levels for such that they need to pad games with something else to get them to a reasonable length.

And it's pretty naive to think it's the "only" way to do 3D Sonic just because, of the tiny fraction of possibilities Sonic Team has explored, this one is the least disliked.

[JezMM]

14 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

General consensus from players and reviewers is Unleashed had the best quality of the 3D Sonics

In what reality?

Now obviously the Werehog is a big factor that makes review scores unreliable here, but I remember quite well at the time that a lot of reviewers still felt Sonic's daytime gameplay was flawed, full of slippy controls and punishing trial-and-error gameplay.  Even when we consider that many were positive there, there was an overwhelming amount of opinion that the Wii/PS2 version was better for it's racing-game-esque take on the boost gameplay.  Then Colours came out and while much of the praise was for the simple fact that they had focused on the daytime gameplay from Unleashed, there was also a lot of praise for the improvements they made (I.e. making it boringly easy so you didn't die as much), feeling it wasn't just more of Unleashed's best - it improved upon it too (I disagree wholeheartedly, but I see how the changes had more mainstream appeal - Unleashed was not a game with a well-designed difficulty-curve).  And even after that, it was widely agreed upon that Generations was the perfect middle-ground between Unleashed's exhiliration and Colours' more friendly difficulty-level.  And even at it's best, there were no stages as wide open as Seaside Hill in Unleashed, I'll say that.

Most of the retrospective love for Unleashed in the fanbase these days comes not from the specifics of how it handled boost gameplay, but rather the sense of world and adventure and the scope of content and amount of clear developer passion that went into it, compared to subsequent games (where all the content outside of the main action gameplay basically amounted to glorified level select screens).

Like the only thing I particularly miss about Unleashed was the sheer amount of content it had.  I do think Generations is the better-designed version of boost gameplay.

[EdsonBubsy]

5 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Rewriting history is a real fun pastime, but in arguments it's not particularly recommended. 

I know you're slow so you may have missed this part:

Quote

 the boost Formula in Unleashed was praised massively

Fuuny how you managed to ignore this thread is about the boost formula and mixed it in with the werehog.

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, EdsonBubsy said:

I know you're slow so you may have missed this part:

Fuuny how you managed to ignore this thread is about the boost formula and mixed it in with the werehog.

Ooh, mature. 

Jez already debunked your second point anyway, so don't get snappy, kid. 

[EdsonBubsy]

3 minutes ago, JezMM said:

In what reality?

Now obviously the Werehog is a big factor that makes review scores unreliable here,

Then why would you even bother posting the screenshot outside trying to deflect from what the topic is about? Boost

No Boost game got more praise than Unleashed for its 3D gameplay for Sonic. Generations was considered a middle ground because it had two gameplay styles yes, but not in terms of whether it reached a better implementation of the boost formula because the complaints that started with colors went to unleashed to.

Unleashed didn't have the kind of "racing track" narrow restrictions that colors and Unleashed had as well as relying on putting 3D sonic in 2D segments.

1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

Ooh, mature. 

Jez already debunked your second point anyway, so don't get snappy, kid. 

You didn't debunk my second point at all because even the metacritic reviews all say praise the day time stages massively. All you have to do is look at the reviews for Colors and Generations and you will not get as much praise and you will start seeing more and more complaints.

Anyway don't throw the mature card when you just came in here to troll and talk about revisions because you were to distracted to learn to read the thread.

[Tracker_TD]

2 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

You didn't debunk my second point at all because even the metacritic reviews all say praise the day time stages massively. All you have to do is look at the reviews for Colors and Generations and you will not get as much praise and you will start seeing more and more complaints.

Anyway don't throw the mature card when you just came in here to troll and talk about revisions because you were to distracted to learn to read the thread.

You said reviewers praised Unleashed above the other games.

I pointed out why that was bogus, and then Jez pointed out why that was bogus even in the context of purely the Boost formula. You can't just brand anyone who disagrees with you a 'troll,' that's not how debate works. 

[EdsonBubsy]

4 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Jez pointed out why that was bogus even in the context of purely the Boost formula. 

He never did this he gave an opinipn, as a person who brought up MC scores off topic in the first place, did you even look at the MC reviews for the boost gamres? There's a clear consensus.

I also never said what you wrote either, you cut that line out of context without adding the rest of the sentence. Which is trolling, the context was very clear.

[JezMM]

3 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Then why would you even bother posting the screenshot outside trying to deflect from what the topic is about?

Yeah that part after you cut off my quote explains exactly why.  Most reviewers probably don't even notice the subtle differences between the track-heavy and non-track heavy boost games, and in the main stages, Unleashed had about as many track-heavy/2D-focused stages as Generations did.  Off the top of my head, Windmill Isle, Savannah Citadel and Arid Sands all have very little in terms of trackless, meaningful 3D gameplay.  As said, Unleashed NEVER got as wide-open and trackless as Seaside Hill did.  The first segment of Eggmanland maybe, but that is of course a significantly shorter location.

At the very least, I'd definitely say the idea that Generations was MORE neutered than Colours was is an utterly bizarre one I've never heard before and I've argued about whether Boost gameplay is great or not an embarrasing amount over the past decade.

[Sega of Japan]

I still find Sa2 very playable. Definitely not Sa1 though 

[Tracker_TD]

4 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

He never did this he gave an opinipn, as a person who brought up MC scores off topic in the first place, did you even look at the MC reviews for the boost gamres? There's a clear consensus.

I also never said what you wrote either, you cut that line out of context without adding the rest of the sentence. Which is trolling, the context was very clear.

There was no such "missing context" in the rest of the post, I cut it for brevity - you did say what was written there, there was no "but Werehog" qualifier of any sort or "just boost gameplay", just "Unleashed was the best received". 

[Kiah]

On 11/17/2017 at 3:33 PM, EdsonBubsy said:

I know you're slow so you may have missed this part:

I don’t know how or why you thought this was okay to say to someone but it’s not by any means. Express your thoughts and disagreements in a respectful manner and definitely without insults. 

Do not accuse anyone of trolling either. If you see an actual problem with a member’s post that is actually against the rules and not simply something that you don’t like or agree with just report it and let a Staff Member take care of it. 

We are getting a bit off track so I’m going to ask everyone to get back on topic please. 

[Red Hot Jack]

For a second I read "Boom Sonic is the only way to make 3D Sonic" as the thread title.

[Osmium]

 

1 hour ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Think about it, the boost Formula in Unleashed was praised massively and unlike the "aged worse with time" gameplay a lot of people place on the Adventure games (in fact for Adventure 2 it had 'aged badly over time" 1 year after its original release, yowzers.) and of course Lost World didn't work and Heroes was a very limited type of gameplay implementations that proved you couldn't use it for a solo sonic adventure (see shadow).

Your entire claim is based on a position that is quite faulty at best. So because every other type of 3D game they have attempted is riddled with flaws means that the Boost is the only way to go? NO. This is a false dichotomy that doesn't even make much sense. The Adventure Games (SA1 at least) definitely had promise in their approach that was abandoned for linearity along with other difficulties. Also both Utopia and Islands have shown that a full on 3D game could work with much effort put into it. This is honestly a very strange topic that indulges itself with a very specific set of parameters that are presently being blown down more everyday by fans. 

[EdsonBubsy]

1 minute ago, ShroomZed said:

So because every other type of 3D game they have attempted is riddled with flaws means that the Boost is the only way to go? NO. This is a false dichotomy that doesn't even make much sense. 

No it's the one that most Sonic fans, gaming fans, and critics say Unleashed day time stages were amazing and still do to this day while complaints about it became more and more due to how the boost forumla is designed in Colors and Generations (and now forces. Please read the OP and you will see this and more that explains the topic.

Quote

Both Utopia and Islands have shown that a full on 3D game could work with much effort put into it.

Those tow don't really show anything they are experiments that as they are, would actually make a bad sonic game. Some of the mechanics they have in their are interesting but the rest of those demos don't have anything around it that compliments them.

 

[Osmium]

4 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

No it's the one that most Sonic fans, gaming fans, and critics say Unleashed day time stages were amazing and still do to this day while complaints about it became more and more due to how the boost forumla is designed in Colors and Generations (and now forces. Please read the OP and you will see this and more that explains the topic.

And they were still costly and highly inefficient to produce. And I think the drop in quality with the other Boost games has to do with limitations of the style itself. How many times can you make the same hallway stages without them becoming worse over time?

6 minutes ago, EdsonBubsy said:

Those tow don't really show anything they are experiments that as they are, would actually make a bad sonic game. Some of the mechanics they have in their are interesting but the rest of those demos don't have anything around it that compliments them.

How can you say that Boost is really the only way to go if you don't give other possible styles a chance? They are experiments obviously but they are much more flexible than the Boost and would lend themselves to a quite good game with proper effort and care. 

[EdsonBubsy]

5 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

And they were still costly and highly inefficient to produce. And I think the drop in quality with the other Boost games has to do with limitations of the style itself. How many times can you make the same hallway stages without them becoming worse over time?

How can you say that Boost is really the only way to go if you don't give other possible styles a chance? They are experiments obviously but they are much more flexible than the Boost and would lend themselves to a quite good game with proper effort and care. 

Unleashed had stages that were not hallways as well. Also the cost claim is likely non sense since they seem to be reusing assets and movements and the fact Sega has lied before or put out purposefully misleading statements until asked about it. Example, the whole 4 years of development thing for Forces.

The other styles did have a chance, at best you can argue lost world didn't but that was basically Sonic trying to be something that l ready exists instead of having an original style.

Other than that Adventure had 3 games, and Heroes has 2. Boom is self explanatory.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

 

4 hours ago, EdsonBubsy said:

I'm going to be a bit controversial here but Boost Sonic is the only direction 3D Sonic can take to make a good game, before you say anything though keep in mind Colors/Generations/Forces are de-evolutions of unleashed.

 

You're approach to the thread is seemingly off a bit but I can accept most of what you said. The boost gameplay was no longer a focused formula. What they did after Unleashed was sort of throw boost Sonic in other Sonic genres because he was the current style people loved and wanted more of when really this was the worst a way Sonic Team handled this to be honest.

Colors did not utilize the the boost formula appropriately as It was never meant for such slow, overuse of 2D, empty tracks and boring platforming. Generations was literally just an Unleashed port, yet again with very little positives. Other than controls being better, Sonic was nerfed in almost every area possible. This isn't even mentioning how the level design for many levels are just open spaces(Seaside Hill) with no flow or sense of challenge. You do nothing in Seaside hill besides exploring or platforming. 

They started to become an anti-thesis to the boost mechanics rather than for it and I'm surprised how they tried force him in every horrible way possible.

3 hours ago, JezMM said:

Sonic Unleashed is my favourite Sonic game and I'd love to see another boost game that has it's level of freedom/complexity/difficulty, but it's not the only way to do Sonic in 3D, and it's definitely not the only way forward to build from it - even though ideally I'd love a Sonic game that meets some kind of happy middle-ground between it and the physics-play of the classic titles.

There is a lot of physics play with Sonic. The game just doesn't hold you to it like the the older games do.

You'd be surprised how input intensive and difficult

 Unleashed can get when you understand how he works.

 

3 hours ago, JezMM said:

Off the top of my head, Windmill Isle, Savannah Citadel and Arid Sands all have very little in terms of trackless, meaningful 3D gameplay. 

True. Although I think this was good considering Unleashed was somewhat of a homage from his first era, so it would make sense for those sects to be more focused on 2D.

 

3 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

Rewriting history is a real fun pastime, but in arguments it's not particularly recommended. 

He's half right. Critics bashed the game(calling it worse than 06!) yet the user scores and overall fanbase accepted the game with open arms. Even the werehog was tolerated.

 

3 hours ago, JezMM said:

And even after that, it was widely agreed upon that Generations was the perfect middle-ground between Unleashed's exhiliration and Colours' more friendly difficulty-level.  And even at it's best, there were no stages as wide open as Seaside Hill in Unleashed, I'll say that.

 

I agree that Generations was a middle ground between Colors and Unleashed's fast moving gameplay though it doesn't come close to Unleashed's euphoric exaggeration in speed especially when the game itself had proper build up and execution.

Quote

I do think Generations is the better-designed version of boost gameplay.

No trial or error but open levels for exploration and platforming(an overtly stated expression I hear reiterated and requested for every Sonic game). It's the most accessible/neutered version for both fans to casuals alike. I don't think needed to be made if the development team/director made hard modes of the stages giving new content and gimmicks specifically for the boost gameplay.

For all my criticisms of generations, it's still a good game. Just a shame they sacrificed a lot to appeal to everyone rather understanding the vision behind Unleashed in the first place.

Overall, the boost games fit today's standards of Sonic games as was games like Sonic 2 was back in the genesis era. Trying to go back to "Re-Adventure" the formula would require a massive overhaul and lots of dedication of making the game fit for the modern era while being careful not to feel like it's the same game. Mario can get away with this shit because he's Mario. Sonic can't.

[EdsonBubsy]

53 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

 

You're approach to the thread is seemingly off a bit but I can accept most of what you said. The boost gameplay was no longer a focused formula. What they did after Unleashed was sort of throw boost Sonic in other Sonic genres because he was the current style people loved and wanted more of when really this was the worst a way Sonic Team handled this to be honest.

Colors did not utilize the the boost formula appropriately as It was never meant for such slow, overuse of 2D, empty tracks and boring platforming. Generations was literally just an Unleashed port, yet again with very little positives. Other than controls being better, Sonic was nerfed in almost every area possible. This isn't even mentioning how the level design for many levels are just open spaces(Seaside Hill) with no flow or sense of challenge. You do nothing in Seaside hill besides exploring or platforming. 

They started to become an anti-thesis to the boost mechanics rather than for it and I'm surprised how they tried force him in every horrible way possible.

There is a lot of physics play with Sonic. The game just doesn't hold you to it like the the older games do.

You'd be surprised how input intensive and difficult

 Unleashed can get when you understand how he works.

 

True. Although I think this was good considering Unleashed was somewhat of a homage from his first era, so it would make sense for those sects to be more focused on 2D.

 

He's half right. Critics bashed the game(calling it worse than 06!) yet the user scores and overall fanbase accepted the game with open arms. Even the werehog was tolerated.

 

I agree that Generations was a middle ground between Colors and Unleashed's fast moving gameplay though it doesn't come close to Unleashed's euphoric exaggeration in speed especially when the game itself had proper build up and execution.

No trial or error but open levels for exploration and platforming(an overtly stated expression I hear reiterated and requested for every Sonic game). It's the most accessible/neutered version for both fans to casuals alike. I don't think needed to be made if the development team/director made hard modes of the stages giving new content and gimmicks specifically for the boost gameplay.

For all my criticisms of generations, it's still a good game. Just a shame they sacrificed a lot to appeal to everyone rather understanding the vision behind Unleashed in the first place.

Overall, the boost games fit today's standards of Sonic games as was games like Sonic 2 was back in the genesis era. Trying to go back to "Re-Adventure" the formula would require a massive overhaul and lots of dedication of making the game fit for the modern era while being careful not to feel like it's the same game. Mario can get away with this shit because he's Mario. Sonic can't.

Sonic can't get away with it because his devs are proven to be incompetent so such a risk as re-sent ring would probably turn out disasterous.

But as I said the boost formula never really was built upon, it's just kind of there for spectacle now and in the case of select levels in colors and now, forces, for pressing up or right on the dpad and boosting with no other inputs as you basically crash through all obstacle on auto-pilot.

One of the first things I said when I beat generation is, that it was a good game but there's clearly a one off game, Forces trying it again shows it wouldn't work twice. 

[Darth InVaders]

Sonic fan game: Green Hill Paradise Act 2

This is how Modern Sonic in 3D should play. Ball physics, no splines (ie no parts where the game takes over control), the player earns the momentum just like the classics. OK, the wide open GTA-style stage is a pipe dream, it would never work for Sonic since it would take too many resources (planning, building time, etc), and the enemies are useless here - I'm just talking about the play style.

[Dr. Detective]

It's been a while. I should really replay some of the Unleashed levels again because I remember those being really thrilling. Especially considering the challenge with utilizing the boost felt more like a challenge than an exploitable luxury. 

I don't need anymore boost games. If I want to play a boost game, I've got three of them on hand now that aren't old as hell.

A new game that tried for a nice, comfortable play at just having Sonic run normally in a 3D space would be appreciated. That's basically what I feel the Adventure games were doing, so I'll keep referring to it as that. 

It'd feel nice and manageable. All the designers get their stuff looked at instead of zoomed by. Allows for more open levels. Provides more opportunity for the other characters. Would be the best way to capitalize on taking what Mania did to heart for a 3D game. Yeah.

It wouldn't fix their frustrating inability to utilize their world and characters correctly but I should probably get used to being disappointed by that. I won't though.

[JezMM]

8 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

There is a lot of physics play with Sonic. The game just doesn't hold you to it like the the older games do.

You'd be surprised how input intensive and difficult

 Unleashed can get when you understand how he works.

 

While this video is a cool example of how much looser Unleashed was than the games that came after and what that freedom allowed you to do - this is not a normal way to play the game.  The route this player takes would have required HOURS of trial-and-error testing, learning and memorisation in order to pull off effectively.  The physics-play I'm talking about is that of the classics where you are encouraged to play and experiment, with rewards for success rather than punishment for failure.