Sonic Forces shows how fractured the fanbase is.

[Plasme]

I think we can all agree that the vast majority of fans are happy with Sonic Mania. And even when there are some points which some parts of the fanbase have been annoyed with, such as with the remixing of old levels, the general consensus seems to be pretty consistent across the fanbase.

However, with the topic of Forces, it's a completely different ball game, and it's the first I think we have seen so explicitly how utterly fractured this fanbase is. In particular, how divided the fanbase is when it comes to 3D Sonic. But moreover, I don't think a lot of fans realise that some of these topics even are as divisive as they actually are.

I'll start with the dark tone and 'edginess' of Forces. Sonic has often been laughed at for his prior plots featuring unusually dark material - such as genocide and murder - and typically handling these subjects in a bizarre and heavy handed manner. However, I've always insisted to people that there exists a strong number of people in the fanbase who genuinely liked that side of Sonic. After all, the clamouring for Sonic Adventure 3 (or a spiritual successor to Adventure) was always partly rooted in bringing Sonic back to 'maturity' after Color's shift towards goofiness. And lo and behold, while some fans are laughing at the edginess of the game, there are also a great deal of fans who are genuinely liking what they are seeing. I've seen responses range from 'well this is better than Colors and Lost World at least' to 'wow, this is the step in the direction I've always wanted them to take'. I think this is significant, because a lot of fans have always made jokes about Sonic's 'edginess' – such as with Shadow and 06 – without fully realising how much a lot of fans wanted that to come back in some form. And how it's closely tied to their hatred of games post Unleashed.

And this combines with the music. Sonic Forces seems to be targeting that Adventure-era cheesy rock while updating it with a more modern twist. The music of the Adventure era is probably more popular with the fanbase as a whole than the 'edge' of Adventure, but there were also fans who either preferred the orchestral sound of the games Unleashed and onwards or felt that the Adventure sound was completely divorced from the Classic titles. And now, that division has been explicitly shown, starting with the songs generally, and now particularly with Infinite's theme. A lot of fans are attacking it for being a wall of dumb noise and featuring 'edgy' lyrics that can't be taken seriously, sometimes pointing out its resemblance to Adventure themes. But now I'm seeing more voices within the fanbase; voices who unironically love the theme – seeing as it goes back to the Adventure sound and tone.

The gameplay is quite obviously divisive – with some fans either appreciating the Boost formula or despising it. I'd say fans on forums, such as this one, typically are on the side which dislikes Boost. But look at the fandom as a whole, I'd say particularly on Generations fan videos and comment sections, and you'll see a lot of fans who love Boost. In fact, one of the typical praises of Forces is that it's going back to the tried and tested Boost formula. Of course, many fans detest Boost, so obviously disagree.

And while there are some topics where the fanbase is mostly undivided: such as the unpopularity of Classic Sonic's appearance, the avatar and the lack of other playable characters, I think this is the first time we have seen such so explicitly how divided the fanbase is.

And it makes me think, imagine if Sonic Adventure 3 or a spiritual successor ever was announced? These divisions which exist would be even more notable, and I think there would probably be lots of flame wars arising from topics which I think both sides of the fanbase don't recognise our so divisive.

[SonicComicFanboy]

Division happens in fanbases, just part of the beast.

 

  The sad thing is, I don't want to have a negative opinion of Forces.  I actually love the Adventure games and Heroes and am more then fine with more serious Sonic stories.  The thing that bothers me is forces is just trying way to hard to recapture the feel of the Adventure games without really understanding what made them work.

 

The music is ridiculous & not in a good way.  Infinite looks too much like a kids DeviantArt OC and Classic Sonic is just tacked on because it was supposed to be an anniversary game despite coming out a year late.

 

 

The character creator feature is really the only shining light for me, but that alone doesn't really save the game and depending on how good or bad that feature is it could just make things worse.

[FlameStream]

For any very long running series still running, you'll see this if you spend enough time in it. It simply can't be avoided.

Final Fantasy, Pokemon, Kingdom Hearts, heck even Mario is in that situation.

The intensity of this is proportional to how invested and/or passionate the fans are.

[Alienrun]

Sega is really lost on me with Forces to be honest...I mean yeah I'll probably like the game, but I don't matter...I find it hard to believe anyone new to sonic will look at this game and want to play it. (Meanwhile Mania is bringing in new people surprisingly)

Sega comes off like:

We put in a CaC to please the fans

We put in cameos of characters to please the fans

We put in Classic Sonic to please the fans

We made the story dark again to please the fans

We made the game boost again to please the fans

We changed the artstyle (again) to please the fans

We added in the old villains again to please the fans

We made Eggman useful to please the fans

We put in a new OP villian to raise tensions and please the fans

Music variety!...for the fans!

sigh

I've already harped on the CaC enough, so I won't bother with that again. But one thing that does get to me is that the desire to change the artstyle again is not only a practice of bad design choice, but it doesn't even make any logical sense! I remember reading way back when Lost World was new that they made everything look less realistic in order to make it easier for players to see what was in front of them...

...now granted I think that's a load of BS but logically it makes sense...

...In forces however THE SAME GUY says that the "best artstyle" that would stand the test of time would be to combine Lost World with a realistic look, saying that the LW style helps balance it out and thus becomes greater than the sum of its parts, thus feeling more "real" than if it were just realistic...

This to me makes no sense, it reaks lazy like how LW was handled. Why not just make a new artstyle from scratch if you want something new? Or just use an old one? Heck...why didn't you do a better job instead of making it look so blatently obvious!

It's dawned on me that Sega has a history of mishmashing ideas for no reason, ON TOP OF THAT they don't even seem to do a very good job at handling their own ideas!

I don't know what to think anymore...all I know is that when Forces drops...I ain't buying it!

Ima pirate that s**t! lol

[Kuzu]

And water is wet. What else is new?

[Meta77]

Most sonic fans don't know what they want. They make fun of infinite looking like a kids oc ok let me mess with just that atm. Shadow. A black sonic with quills turned up. Metal sonic. Just a robot sonic. Eggman mech on son8c 3. Let's just put two big arms on it. Chaos  a water thing.  chipp a flying chiwawa.  People acting as if half the characters aren't deviant ocs is laughable.saying his themes bad how.? Cause it's edddddsddgy? Like "ancient cities blazing, shadows keep attacking, little children crying"

Sonic games lyrics are always cheesy. But as I've said before everyone has different musical taste and knowledge. I like the tracks

[Nepenthe]

Old Woman Yelling At Clouds here, but the rows we've had with Forces don't approach the things said and done on SSMB back in 2005 when ShtH dropped, when there were actual topics made back then for the express purpose of singling out a portion of fans and blaming them for the state of things, and they were left open for awhile too, something we wouldn't allow today. Some of y'all just wouldn't survive the forum back then if Forces' reception is bothering you this much. Granted, I don't take too much stock in noting that the fanbase is fractured, because I think the whole concept as typically expressed is intellectually trite and has yet to lead to anything worthy of being called a solution to any purported problem. It never takes into account:

- To what extent fans who subscribe to different parts of the fandom do so exclusively and at the expense of all others (did you know that you can be a classic and modern fan at the same time?!) 

- Overlapping areas of agreement concerning what features different fans want or will tolerate and compromise on, thus ignoring the potential of actually coming up with a game design that would be better liked than what we're getting now (I literally haven't seen a person yet who thinks rolling or less automated physics systems shouldn't come back, even if they're fine with the boost physics)

- To what extent hype culture plays in the expression of an opinion at the time that highly valued news drops (people saying "best/worst game ever!" when a new trailer drops usually aren't being literal, and we should do well to recognize that by now)

- Changing standards of video game design on the reception of newer games (this typically overlooked when people ask "Why did you like Generations if you don't like Forces?!")

- Changing standards of individuals as they, you know, age, grow up, and expand their gaming tastes, like normal human beings

- Sonic Team's actual quality output, particularly when compared to any other contemporary game series. When paradigm-shifting titles like Breath of the Wild and Odyssey are dropping the same year, Generations 2 with darkness and OCs attached just isn't good enough. Where is Sonic's Odyssey, and why aren't we demanding it?

Seriously, I have never seen anyone go into any real depth on the subject of the fan dynamics at play here while taking into account the extent of various other cultural forces at play on the situation. All noting that "the fanbase is fractured!" does is simply complain about people having different opinions. Well, no shit- look at the variance in games released over Sonic's 3D lifespan. The amount of sheer design and aesthetic choice that Sonic Team has unwittingly offered us over the years was going to inevitably result in this. However, that doesn't mean we can't do much, much better than Forces, it doesn't mean we can't ever get a game that makes more people happier than they are now. 

Nor should it really matter what people think in the now. We all like something that is contentious (unless you're boring AF), we've all been in the minority, and we should stop giving so much time and energy into trying to constantly make a big deal out of being in the minority. I like the Werehog for Pete's sakes. I don't think you understand, I really like the Werehog. In terms of my participation in the community, I don't care that much what other Sonic fans think about my favorite things, and no one else should either. Listen back to the music, make some fan art of Infinite, create some positivity-only topics (these aren't against the rules; staff won't stop you), go to these other places online where Forces is apparently getting a super positive reception. Don't make yourself miserable for no reason.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

- To what extent fans who subscribe to different parts of the fandom do so exclusively and at the expense of all others (did you know that you can be a classic and modern fan at the same time?!) 

Bullshit. Everyone knows it's only black and white dichotomies in this series :V

[Wraith]

I think it's important to emphasis that it's not nearly as impossible to make a Sonic game that pleases most of the fanbase as a lot of people think it is. A lot of these elements don't overlap at all. Adventure fans would appreciate the added depth better physics and less automation would bring more than anything, Even the most purest of pure classic fans would probably at least be inclined shut the fuck up about darker elements if they were handled better. etc. Been preaching that for a while now.

I also think people are a bit too...personal with this series sometimes. I don't know about you guys, but I'm kind of over having meltdowns over Sonic games. Be passionate, be critical, like Sonic Forces or hate it, all that stuff is fine. Just remember that it's just a game at the end of the day and it's not worth being depressed or shitting on people over, and we'd be a lot better off. 
 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

11 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

- Sonic Team's actual quality output, particularly when compared to any other contemporary game series. When paradigm-shifting titles like Breath of the Wild and Odyssey are dropping the same year, Generations 2 with darkness and OCs attached just isn't good enough. Where is Sonic's Odyssey, and why aren't we demanding it?

Seriously, I have never seen anyone go into any real depth on the subject of the fan dynamics at play here while taking into account the extent of various other cultural forces at play on the situation. All noting that "the fanbase is fractured!" does is simply complain about people having different opinions. Well, no shit- look at the variance in games released over Sonic's 3D lifespan. The amount of sheer design and aesthetic choice that Sonic Team has unwittingly offered us over the years was going to inevitably result in this. However, that doesn't mean we can't do much, much better than Forces, it doesn't mean we can't ever get a game that makes more people happier than they are now. 

The bolded, I strongly agree with and need to expand on. This is the primary point of being a Sonic fan to me, or a fan of any brand. 

I have supported this franchise since day one. For a time, there was good reason to do that. In the 90s, every main series Sonic game (Sonic 1, 2, 3, K, CD) were released with the consumer expectation that they would be getting an excellent product. Every dollar spent on Sonic was in good faith because the games were expected to be of high quality, even amongst the market competition. Many younger Sonic fans today are not aware of this, but during this time Sonic was widely considered a legitimate rival to Mario, who had always been the king of platformers----and for a brief period of time actually eclipsed Mario's popularity in the western markets...which is a staggering accomplishment and always needs to be remembered (Even Nintendo remembers it, from many interviews). Sonic is the only platforming franchise to have ever done that, and its the reason despite his more modern history, he was as famous as he was.

Sonic Team has not been remotely close to that since the 90s. Can you imagine this version of Sonic Team ever returning the brand back to that level? Improbable to say the least  (especially with the likes of Takashi Iizuka on board, no disrespect to him).

I'm definitely what one would consider an original era fan but there are things about both the adventure era of the early 2000s and the more recent era of the early 2010s, that I do very much like about Sonic. However....it is extremely obvious that for these eras the design philosophy and general focus of Sonic Team are very far from what the level they used to be, and it is the reason why Modern Sonic games are not held in very high esteem outside of the specific sections of the fanbase in which they appeal to. These eras do not have anything close to universal appeal and cannot bring Sonic out of the low depths in which his current reputation resides. As a lifelong Sonic fan, this is why even though I have some fond memories of those times, I cannot in good conscience continue advocate a push in their philosophical directions at all. If Sonic is to be a truly great on the level of competing with Mario and Zelda like it once did, it has been thoroughly proven by this point that the philosophical direction of any point in the Modern Sonic era (Sonic Adventure 1 to present) largely do not work for universal appeal, and should be discontinued immediately with haste. There is not a defensible position to take with this era at this point, except for one's personal taste. If SEGA truly wants something with close to universal appeal like they once had in the 90s, they need to do this at all costs.

 

Side point: I'm in the group that actually thinks that the original Sonic Adventure had a ton of potential for a solid 3D foundation had it been much more focused and polished but I realize that there are easy counter arguments to make that can outweigh that notion.

 

To conclude: Forget what the fractured fanbase thinks! The most successful franchises do not design their games by conducting straw polls; that is a terrible way to conduct business. They pay close attention to what works and stick to it, only making minor adjustments and meaningful additions as they need to by intelligent market research, not knee jerk reactions to polarized fan outcries. The best way to treat fans is to create a brand that ensures consistency of high quality. A consumer should know what they're getting and expect it to be great while leaving room to be surprised in unexpected areas. For Sonic's reference, Sonic Mania is doing exactly that right now. Sonic needs a 3D equivalent to that and it needs to continue for the lifetime of the brand. SEGA needs that as a flagship product. All else will follow from that.

 

 

 

 

[Kuzu]

Ya know, I'm really trying to understand the point of this topic. So basically, the OP is saying...people have different opinions and tastes? That kind of warrants a "No Shit" reaction, anybody with basic understandings of the human mind could have came to this conclusion, so why are we treating the Sonic series as if it's some kind of special case for this? Because some fans aren't always on board with every new game that Sonic Team throws out?

Like Nepenthe pointed out, this entire topic ignores the special circumstances that constantly leads to these reactions and people just generalize them as "LOl Sonic fans can't be pleased", which really makes me question how much people who claim to be Sonic fans actually understand their own community and haven't simply been influenced by the years worth of memes this series has accumulated. 

And the irony, the fact that Sonic Mania is getting so much praise from both in and out of the fanbase just kind of spits in the face of that false dichotomy. Because if Sonic fans truly were as fractured as so many claim, then Mania would be getting the same contentious reactions as Forces. So maybe, the problem isn't that fans "can't be pleased" or more how said "fans" cannot comprehend that not everyone is going to like what you like, and to that I say, "Welcome to social interactions, where not everyone shares your interest".

[ChikaBoing]

I think neither Forces or Shadow are so much products of them only wanting to please fans. They wanted to make a run and gun game so they made that, Shadow being popular is half of it. Forces is post apocalyptic and more dramatic, and has YOU the player joining the resistance. Those are fine mix up of any long running franchise. The problem is execution in presentation.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 minute ago, ChikaBoing said:

I think neither Forces or Shadow are so much products of them only wanting to please fans. They wanted to make a run and gun game so they made that, Shadow being popular is half of it. Forces is post apocalyptic and more dramatic, and has YOU the player joining the resistance. Those are fine mix up of any long running franchise. The problem is execution in presentation.

The glaring problem is, with Forces their intention was actually the opposite; Forces is their idea of a game with universal appeal, while they thought Mania would only appeal to hardcore Sonic fans. And they just spent four years developing it as a result.

The opposite is showing to be true and it should not be surprising because it has been the fuel of many of the long standing memes and criticism of this franchise. 

[ChikaBoing]

I am just saying the concept on any of these games is as legimitate as any other. Shadow and 06 glaringly had some fanservice with extra characters, and that role weirdly has been taken by Classic Sonic for Forces. Otherwise its decent.

I think the Werehog is the most straight up stupid concept they had for the games, but so strangely, it was handled very decently in presentation and tone. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

I dunno. 

I see a lot of people united when it comes to how bad people think the level design, automotion gameplay and UI is. Lots of people also united about how much of a joke infinite is turning into. (Currently on 6 confirmed super powers and climbing.)

Those who don't like it seem to me to be VERY united at what they have problems with.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

23 minutes ago, ChikaBoing said:

I am just saying the concept on any of these games is as legimitate as any other. Shadow and 06 glaringly had some fanservice with extra characters, and that role weirdly has been taken by Classic Sonic for Forces. Otherwise its decent.

I think the Werehog is the most straight up stupid concept they had for the games, but so strangely, it was handled very decently in presentation and tone. 

The concept on any of these games are NOT as legitimate as the other. No offense to you but that is laughable at this point. Its somewhat strange how this perception seems to exist widely in the Sonic fanbase but with other big gaming franchises its an absolute no-go. Call of Duty games should always play like call of duty games. Pokémon games like pokemon games. Mario, etc. But with Sonic, so many think "What I like is just as good an idea as what you like" when this is not supported by any metric of reality in any way. 

If Sonic games identity and focus had remained consistent in the post 90s era, the franchise reputation would not be the sh*thole that it is today. So no, all ideas of Sonic are not equally valid. Frankly, that is ridiculous. This perception seems to exist in fans of the series from the Modern era and its no mystery why, I suppose. The Modern games are all over the place in consistency and design. But this is NOT the way successful mega franchises do things. Sonic was definitely created with a specific design and focus. We've just gotten so far away from it, for such a long time now, that there are people who have never understood what that is. Its okay to like the things we like as individuals and no one can change our opinions... but that does not mean our perceptions of an independently conceived idea with deliberate intention are equally valid. They're not.

 

[Nepenthe]

There's an argument to be made about concept versus execution, particularly since Sonic is a product of a time where aesthetic contradiction and nonsense could be gotten away with without much questioning. Sonic is an honest clusterfuck of competing influences, ranging from 20s American animation to a 70s space opera franchise to a 90s Japanese anime that is in and of itself based on an ancient Chinese myth, to 80s and 90s American pop, r&b, jazz, and new jack swing as filtered partially through the lens of a Japanese pop band, with general sprinklings of sci-fi, fantasy, to straight old school adventure serials like Indiana Jones.... I don't even know where to begin reconciling all of this shit into a single doctrine or style. Fuck, I would argue there isn't one, and that there isn't much conceptually you can argue cannot possibly belong in the series that hasn't been introduced already.

Even Mario is allowed this benefit of the doubt and it's a franchise with a much better sense of trust and brand consistency than most. Seriously, if you told me a year ago that the next big Mario game would be like 64 but would partly take place in the real world, and Mario could throw his hat- which was now a living creature- onto real humans and take control of their body for specific tasks, I would be like "No, you're fucking lying because this is an absolutely stupid-ass idea. Nintendo would literally never do this, if only because the real world doesn't fit with the "Mario aesthetic."

Lo and behold, the shit exists and it's blowing Sonic as a whole out of the water.

[CottonCandy]

Fandoms in general are going to be fractured. Not everybody within a fandom is going to agree with certain things. That's just how it is. 

Sonic forces looks to be all just over the place. I'm not even sure what the focus is anymore. It almost as if sonic team is throwing in random ideas into one game. Hoping that one of them will stick to the wall. Not to mention, the gameplay isn't leaving much of a impact. When you compare to other big games this year. It's lackluster, uninteresting, and disappointing. 

Look, at end of the day, I just want a great sonic game. That's all. I don't care if it's trying to be like adventure or the classics. Sure, the sonic fandom can be divided when comes to music, characters and different incarnations. That's normal but I think most of us can agree when a game is just simply good. Look at Mania for an example. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

20 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

There's an argument to be made about concept versus execution, particularly since Sonic is a product of a time where aesthetic contradiction and nonsense could be gotten away with without much questioning. Sonic is an honest clusterfuck of competing influences, ranging from 20s American animation to a 70s space opera franchise to a 90s Japanese anime that is in and of itself based on an ancient Chinese myth, to 80s and 90s American pop, r&b, jazz, and new jack swing as filtered partially through the lens of a Japanese pop band, with general sprinklings of sci-fi, fantasy, to straight old school adventure serials like Indiana Jones.... I don't even know where to begin reconciling all of this shit into a single doctrine or style. Fuck, I would argue there isn't one, and that there isn't much conceptually you can argue cannot possibly belong in the series that hasn't been introduced already.

Even Mario is allowed this benefit of the doubt and it's a franchise with a much better sense of trust and brand consistency than most. Seriously, if you told me a year ago that the next big Mario game would be like 64 but would partly take place in the real world, and Mario could throw his hat- which was now a living creature- onto real humans and take control of their body for specific tasks, I would be like "No, you're fucking lying because this is an absolutely stupid-ass idea. Nintendo would literally never do this, if only because the real world doesn't fit with the "Mario aesthetic."

Lo and behold, the shit exists and it's blowing Sonic as a whole out of the water.

The process of invention requires the knowledge and sampling of existing materials. Sonic taking inspiration from many sources to create a unique identity is the same process that any unique artistic creation uses. It becomes its own thing based on its on intentions and how well it perform to reach its own goals. Prior to 1991 elements of Sonic the hedgehog existed elsewhere. Upon his inception a unique style was birthed of that mixture of concepts. Doctrine probably is too heavy a word to use here because even in the classic games there is 'consistency' but no true doctrine. Sonic's games could take place on a floating island or in space, or in a modern-esque city.

Its much like the conversation about guns or "edginess" in this series. Could they ever have a place? The answer is "Well it depends, really". Context is everything. It could fit but it won't automatically fit because you slapped them in there. A creatively intelligent blend of those elements? Sure why not. (I've personally thought Tails' gameplay has been long overdue for some kind of gadget/weapon gameplay to complement his status as a mechanic genius, but that is an aside)

The Sonic aesthetic exists I think. Anything that can complement the boldness, vibrancy, and effectively timeless design of the character himself. The nature vs machine tropes, freedom vs slavery, etc. are all things that are of ageless eminence. Plus, he's a hedgehog, so he curls into a ball to attack foes...but his name is "Sonic", which literally implies sound speed, so he can run/roll quite fast. That is an aesthetic and an identity.

 

 

[Nepenthe]

If you admit that guns or "edginess" (whatever that means) could have fit their respective depending upon how they had been done, then you agree with me that there isn't much that hasn't been introduced in the games proper that could not have theoretically fit had they been done better, meaning the idea you came in with that a lot of the initial or theoretical concepts that people like aren't equivalent immediately loses some of its huff. They're not equivalent in execution, no; the Werehog as he exists in Unleashed isn't as well-received as, say, Knuckles in Sonic 3. But the actual idea of Sonic transforming into a monster that gets around by swinging with his arms? Fuck; considering the range of design influences on the franchise that includes transformations, monsters, and gods and things, and the precedent of a character that climbs as well as level gimmicks that involve swinging, the Werehog is is by all accounts "Sonic-like," and I wager a gameplay style where you gather momentum and speed through stylish swings and grabs would've been much better received than Knuckles' gameplay in SA2. Concept vs. execution.

The really wide strokes you named at the end also don't point to any particularly specific design ideal, and to give you an example of the thing I'm looking for, I'm talking about something reminiscent to an art design book, bible, or list of rules about the specifics of design elements (character, environment, light, etc.) of which a work or series of works must generally adhere to, like the kind of thing you'd get on an animated film. You give me "freedom vs. slavery" and bright colors things as tropes with which to base a work around and I could give you any-fucking-thing that technically fits.

[Wraith]

At this point I feel like the key is to take it all in stride. Sonic has the tendency to pretend like he never did the shit whenever it's time to move on from something. Mario will keep doing weird stuff but characters will reapper, mechanics will reappear and get improved etc so it kind of feels like it's building on itself, if that makes any sense. Sunshine, Galaxy, Odyssey etc are weird concepts but I always got the sense they picked up something from each. 

[Dizcrybe]

Everything since Generations (probably even before then) has shown this. What makes Forces special in this regard?

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

There's an argument to be made about concept versus execution, particularly since Sonic is a product of a time where aesthetic contradiction and nonsense could be gotten away with without much questioning. Sonic is an honest clusterfuck of competing influences, ranging from 20s American animation to a 70s space opera franchise to a 90s Japanese anime that is in and of itself based on an ancient Chinese myth, to 80s and 90s American pop, r&b, jazz, and new jack swing as filtered partially through the lens of a Japanese pop band, with general sprinklings of sci-fi, fantasy, to straight old school adventure serials like Indiana Jones.... I don't even know where to begin reconciling all of this shit into a single doctrine or style. Fuck, I would argue there isn't one, and that there isn't much conceptually you can argue cannot possibly belong in the series that hasn't been introduced already.

Even Mario is allowed this benefit of the doubt and it's a franchise with a much better sense of trust and brand consistency than most. Seriously, if you told me a year ago that the next big Mario game would be like 64 but would partly take place in the real world, and Mario could throw his hat- which was now a living creature- onto real humans and take control of their body for specific tasks, I would be like "No, you're fucking lying because this is an absolutely stupid-ass idea. Nintendo would literally never do this, if only because the real world doesn't fit with the "Mario aesthetic."

Lo and behold, the shit exists and it's blowing Sonic as a whole out of the water.

Well let's be fair, we have been conditioned by Sonic Team to expect the absolute worst. Because for every major innovation, there's something else that just drags the whole experience down. 

Mario gets to be weird and nonsensical because his track record calls for it. If somebody is performing exceptionally well at what they do, you're going to care less about how they get it done.

Sonic however, does not and likely, never will get that luxury because his attempts at innovation have been horribly handled. So yea, Concept vs. Execution plays a role here. Had many of the elements that people continuously criticize about the series been implemented more competently, I highly doubt they would have ended up as controversial as they did. 

 

Would anyone believe Shadow was actually a well respected character at one point, and actually popular with people. Ya know, rather than the butt of every "Edgy" meme joke you can find on the internet.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

If you admit that guns or "edginess" (whatever that means) could have fit their respective depending upon how they had been done, then you agree with me that there isn't much that hasn't been introduced in the games proper that could not have theoretically fit had they been done better, meaning the idea you came in with that a lot of the initial or theoretical concepts that people like aren't equivalent immediately loses some of its huff. They're not equivalent in execution, no; the Werehog as he exists in Unleashed isn't as well-received as, say, Knuckles in Sonic 3. But the actual idea of Sonic transforming into a monster that gets around by swinging with his arms? Fuck; considering the range of design influences on the franchise that includes transformations, monsters, and gods and things, and the precedent of a character that climbs as well as level gimmicks that involve swinging, the Werehog is is by all accounts "Sonic-like," and I wager a gameplay style where you gather momentum and speed through stylish swings and grabs would've been much better received than Knuckles' gameplay in SA2. Concept vs. execution.

The really wide strokes you named at the end also don't point to any particularly specific design ideal, and to give you an example of the thing I'm looking for, I'm talking about something reminiscent to an art design book, bible, or list of rules about the specifics of design elements (character, environment, light, etc.) of which a work or series of works must generally adhere to, like the kind of thing you'd get on an animated film. You give me "freedom vs. slavery" and bright colors things as tropes with which to base a work around and I could give you any-fucking-thing that technically fits.

To the latter, yeah that's my point. The design isn't super specific outside of the character, his intent, and his opposition (nature vs machine). Sonic is versatile enough to fit in a variety of situations but you've got to have the proper imagination to think..."well, where would a blue hedgehog fit in this scenario?". I'm definitely not rigid on this at all and don't think one should be. We are in agreement in a lot of things actually. The execution definitely I'd say is the bigger problem with this franchise more than the ideas itself but some ideas don't work. It takes a careful mind or hivemind to know when something won't work.

Werehog is a perfect example, as you used. Do you remember the trailer for Sonic Unleashed? I almost wanted to sue SEGA for false advertisement because the way the werehog was portrayed in the cutscenes and trailer was something that would have been awesome if indicative of the actual product. Imagine Sonic with nearly his normal speed but as acrobatic and strong as the werehog, swiftly and fluidly scaling rooftops like a miniature king kong on 3X speed....instead of "slowly" plodding around repetitively beating on bunches of baddies and pulling a switch here and there? The former sounds terrific; The latter is what we got. So should it have been used? If the gameplay was like the latter, then probably not. Why? Because Sonic the Hedgehog is not a slow plodding character and thus the bulk of the gameplay should complement his essence; 60% of the gameplay should not a slow 'beat em up', that is a bad choice for Sonic the hedgehog. But its possible that it could have been used if the gameplay was designed a bit differently so that those elements could have better complemented the core style.

Again, I'm saying that with a character like Sonic, there doesn't necessitate a very strict doctrine because his themes are pretty universal and timeless. Its unnecessary to speak in such absolute terms with Sonic. But there are obviously good and bad choices. Sonic's personal traits (both in character and gameplay design) and the relationship between he and his main foe (the underlying themes of the series) should serve as the roadmap of possibilities. They're all that's necessary. All else comes down to judgement.

 

[Plasme]

I was trying to say that the game has shown how the fanbase is even more divided than most people give credit (for example on the dark tone of Forces; there's been a huge contrast between people who love it and people who think its cringey. A lot of the time they talk to each other seemingly without realising what the other really thinks and both assuming a level of knowledge about the other that they don't really have - the real crux), but since not one person has even engaged with my opening post I won't bother explaining what I initially said, especially when people are accusing me of saying that the fanbase is unpleasable, which I didn't even imply and is just made up.

And the incredible snark in this topic, and around the forum, has annoyed me to the point of never coming back. The cult of personality on here is pathetic; it's a circlejerk of people being assholes to fish for popularity by the likes system. And not just at me; towards people who haven't been on here as long as I have and don't have the 'SSMB street cred generally'. And I know people are going to make snarky comments that I can't be bothered to come back by saying something stupid like 'good, don't let the door hit you on the way out, because that''s exactly the kind of thing forum wanabee cool people would do.

And you know, this sentiment of forum pride keeps getting repeated around here; I can tell you are all so proud of being on this obscure forum for so long, but just because I wasn't on this forum for 15+ years doesn't mean I'm some young kid with no idea of the fanbase's fracture. I was a teenager when Sonic 2 came out, there was debate about the franchise's direction ever since then, with not everyone being on board with Tails constantly following you around and fucking things in the game up by default. That and the rehashing and general laziness it served as a sequel. I was right in the Adventure debate debacle too; I know a lot about the history of this fanbase firsthand. So just because I wasn't on this oh so holy site as long as you doesn't mean I'm somehow less qualified or knowledgable to talk about the franchise and its reception. Same for a lot of other people too.

The vast number of people on this forum who engage in this type of behaviour should all look in the mirror and revaluate themselves.