The Sonic "Problem"

[WakanoBaka]

So I checked on something recently, and to my surprise

 

 

So what do ya guys think......?

^{Love, Hate Discuss ,NOW!*runs away*}

 

 

 

^{PS: Is this the right thread?}

Edited December 24, 2015 by WakanoBaka

[speedhog58]

That's probably the best analysis of the franchise I've ever seen.

 

If only more people saw things that way...

[Tara]

Hihi and welcome to SSMB!  We hope you enjoy your stay here!  I'm just going to give you a few tips to get you started.  Take no offense to these, as we all tend to go through this upon first starting out.

For one, we're a very vocal community.  That means we expect to see vivid detail in your posts, especially in the OP.  Your thread will probably be much more well received, understood, and appreciated if you were to put in at least a paragraph of your own explaining what the video is and your own thoughts on the matter.

Second, this thread is in the wrong forum.  All Sonic-related discussions should be in Green Hill Zone, or if it's pertaining specifically to an upcoming or recent release in the Upcoming Sonic Games forum.  As such, I've taken the liberty of moving the topic to GHZ.  Please take a few moments to read each forum category and familiarize yourself with the purpose of each forum as well as our guidelines and rules.

Please don't hesitate to PM me or another mod if you have questions or concerns! <3

Edited December 25, 2015 by Christmuffet

[Diogenes]

I can't take seriously anyone who tries to act like Sonic has gotten an entirely raw deal from critics. Are there some instances of going over the top, of preferring to continue seeing Sonic as a joke to the point of being contrary to what the games are actually doing? Yeah, sure. Some. But the majority of the frustration with the series is legitimate, because a lot of Sonic games aren't good. And having a real conversation about how the series can improve requires recognizing where it's done wrong.

Dude gets too wanky about his interpretation of the speed vs platforming issue and tries to use it as a bludgeon against any other opinions on that balancing act.

Aaaand he just tried to argue that the boost was "optional" in Generations, so you can't criticize it. Wow.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

Aaaand he just tried to argue that the boost was "optional" in Generations, so you can't criticize it. Wow.

The boost is as optional in Sonic Generations as the homing attack is in Sonic 4. 

That was a stupid argument on his part. Cannot take seriously. 

Edited December 25, 2015 by Mikyeong

[Idon'tcare]

I'm not even gonna touch that video... Sorry, but listening to whiny angry people ranting about Sonic for even a single minute is not my thing. :/

 

[WakanoBaka]

I'm not even gonna touch that video... Sorry, but listening to whiny angry people ranting about Sonic for even a single minute is not my thing. :/

 

He's not really ranting about Sonic, nor is is angry....

Hihi and welcome to SSMB!  We hope you enjoy your stay here!  I'm just going to give you a few tips to get you started.  Take no offense to these, as we all tend to go through this upon first starting out.

For one, we're a very vocal community.  That means we expect to see vivid detail in your posts, especially in the OP.  Your thread will probably be much more well received, understood, and appreciated if you were to put in at least a paragraph of your own explaining what the video is and your own thoughts on the matter.

Second, this thread is in the wrong forum.  All Sonic-related discussions should be in Green Hill Zone, or if it's pertaining specifically to an upcoming or recent release in the Upcoming Sonic Games forum.  As such, I've taken the liberty of moving the topic to GHZ.  Please take a few moments to read each forum category and familiarize yourself with the purpose of each forum as well as our guidelines and rules.

Please don't hesitate to PM me or another mod if you have questions or concerns! <3

Huh...could have sworn I was in the right one, but yeah, thanks for the info...

 

The boost is as optional in Sonic Generations as the homing attack is in Sonic 4. 

That was a stupid argument on his part. Cannot take seriously. 

I'm pretty sure he meant down the line of, the non-homing attack needed sections....

I can't take seriously anyone who tries to act like Sonic has gotten an entirely raw deal from critics. Are there some instances of going over the top, of preferring to continue seeing Sonic as a joke to the point of being contrary to what the games are actually doing? Yeah, sure. Some. But the majority of the frustration with the series is legitimate, because a lot of Sonic games aren't good. And having a real conversation about how the series can improve requires recognizing where it's done wrong.

Dude gets too wanky about his interpretation of the speed vs platforming issue and tries to use it as a bludgeon against any other opinions on that balancing act.

Aaaand he just tried to argue that the boost was "optional" in Generations, so you can't criticize it. Wow.

I'm amusing you heard of Game Grumps, apparently, they think SA1 is junk, now I know it hasn't aged well, but it isn't as bad as they make it out to be. Why? Cause bashing sonic is "cool". And saying a lot of sonic games aren't "good" falls into the category of opinion since I consider them "not bad".

 

I think he made a valid point about the speed VS platforming, the thing that separated Sonic from any other platforming was the fact he moved fast, that he did everything fast, now I'm not saying sacrifice platforming for speed or vice-versa, I'm saying Generations(and SA1 for that matter) had it right.

 

He never said you couldn't criticize it, he is countering the "boost-to-win"  argument.

 

Edited December 28, 2015 by WakanoBaka

[Blaze349]

 

If you play the classics,especially greenhill zone, then play super Marino bros or any other play former at the time you'll notice the difference is not Sonic moves fast but seems fast because of the physics. Sonic levels were about utilising the enviroment to maintain momentum and speed. The physics made Sonic great not the speed.

[Idon'tcare]

On ‎28‎-‎12‎-‎2015 at 8:33 AM, WakanoBaka said:

He's not really ranting about Sonic, nor is is angry....

When their tag line is "Check out the webseries made by disgruntled gamers for disgruntled gamers." I know I want nothing to do with it.

Gods, what is it with youtube reviewers and always being negative about everything.

[WakanoBaka]

4 hours ago, Idon'tcare said:

When their tag line is "Check out the webseries made by disgruntled gamers for disgruntled gamers." I know I want nothing to do with it.

Gods, what is it with youtube reviewers and always being negative about everything.

This dude actually comments on that matter when it comes to YT reviewers and Sonic games, he sez that they basically bash Sonic cause they think it's "cool"....

4 hours ago, Blaze349 said:

 

If you play the classics,especially greenhill zone, then play super Marino bros or any other play former at the time you'll notice the difference is not Sonic moves fast but seems fast because of the physics. Sonic levels were about utilising the enviroment to maintain momentum and speed. The physics made Sonic great not the speed.

I would have to sorta disagree with that, cause what SEGA mostly used when advertising Sonic 1, was that he was fast. But ofc, without utilizing the environment, you can't keep that speed, but then again, that logic is normally thrown out the window when a speedy section happens and then there is a ramp, and BAM, right back to utilizing.

Speed sections are normally just hold right, sometimes you gotta dodge shit, if you see something like a ledge above you, jump, go fast your own way basically.

 

On 12/25/2015 at 4:39 PM, speedhog58 said:

That's probably the best analysis of the franchise I've ever seen.

 

If only more people saw things that way...

IKR!

[Blaze349]

4 hours ago, WakanoBaka said:

This dude actually comments on that matter when it comes to YT reviewers and Sonic games, he sez that they basically bash Sonic cause they think it's "cool"....

I would have to sorta disagree with that, cause what SEGA mostly used when advertising Sonic 1, was that he was fast. But ofc, without utilizing the environment, you can't keep that speed, but then again, that logic is normally thrown out the window when a speedy section happens and then there is a ramp, and BAM, right back to utilizing.

Speed sections are normally just hold right, sometimes you gotta dodge shit, if you see something like a ledge above you, jump, go fast your own way basically.

 

IKR!

Sonic's American depiction is very different from his real one.

[WakanoBaka]

16 hours ago, Blaze349 said:

Sonic's American depiction is very different from his real one.

Huh? To my knowledge, the Japanese commercial promoted the speed also. I'd have to look it up again.

 

Remember, level design alone does not make Sonic.

1.Speed

2.Graphics

3.Level Design.

4.Story(Notice how it's last)

Adventure games had all four but less of 2.

Heroes and ShTH had 1 and 2, and a confusing 4 but lacked 3

Unleashed and Generations had all three, but Generations had no 4.

Colors and Lost Worlds lacked 1, 4 and 3, but was good on 2.

[Blaze349]

Sonic games are about momentum and acceleration. If they were about speed why play the classics instead of Need for Speed?

Your list is an inaccurate description of the most important elements of a Sonic game.

More accurate list:

1. Good physics(momentum, Gravity, acceleration, force and such)

2.level design(like in S3&K)

3. Colourful, bright and vibrant theme(at least for the first few levels)

4.Story

See how level design is second to last on your list? Level design is the most important element in a Sonic game after its momentum and such.

If you made a fan game that you boosted through fifty miles of land in a second is that fun? No.

This is because there is no sense of speed. Momentum and acceleration are twice as fun as speed.

Another example: What's feels faster? Sitting in a Boeing or snowboarding? Snowboarding FEELS faster because of the momentum involved not the just the distance/time. Until good physics and Level design are brought into the franchise it will always be mediocre.

In Unleashed at slow speeds the controls felt floaty and imprecise at slow speeds(excluding the werehog) and the level design doesn't provide exploration, flow or real interaction. All the loops are scripted.

This guy misses the point completely about what made Sonic special. Watch the Sonic documentary on Sonscotty's channel to understand the vision of the blue blur. Beats accusing people of not liking Sonic for no reason.

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[WakanoBaka]

8 hours ago, Blaze349 said:

Sonic games are about momentum and acceleration. If they were about speed why play the classics instead of Need for Speed?

Your list is an inaccurate description of the most important elements of a Sonic game.

More accurate list:

1. Good physics(momentum, Gravity, acceleration, force and such)

2.level design(like in S3&K)

3. Colourful, bright and vibrant theme(at least for the first few levels)

4.Story

See how level design is second to last on your list? Level design is the most important element in a Sonic game after its momentum and such.

If you made a fan game that you boosted through fifty miles of land in a second is that fun? No.

This is because there is no sense of speed. Momentum and acceleration are twice as fun as speed.

Another example: What's feels faster? Sitting in a Boeing or snowboarding? Snowboarding FEELS faster because of the momentum involved not the just the distance/time. Until good physics and Level design are brought into the franchise it will always be mediocre.

In Unleashed at slow speeds the controls felt floaty and imprecise at slow speeds(excluding the werehog) and the level design doesn't provide exploration, flow or real interaction. All the loops are scripted.

This guy misses the point completely about what made Sonic special. Watch the Sonic documentary on Sonscotty's channel to understand the vision of the blue blur. Beats accusing people of not liking Sonic for no reason.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm pretty sure momentum is covered in speed. As for physics, yeah they are important, how else would you keep speed and flow/momentum .

Also didn't mean to put Level design as 4, I haven't been feeling well lately, doc sez I'm overworking....but yeah. I sorta agree, but I have to say, keeping speed and flow/momentum .in 3D is nothing like keeping it in 2D Sonic games, as the video points out, it is much harder to design a Sonic level in 3D cause there would be

1.no sense of direction.

2.Or linear.

 

Unleash had the keeping of speed and flow/momentum but not in the way the other games did, keeping speed and flow/momentum .in Unleashed was more of a trial and error. Also, the Need For Speed argument isn't all that well when people say they want a platformer, and Unleashed HAS those platforming, just not in the same levels, or rather....time of day.

[Blaze349]

I agree. I think Sonic team should rewrite the camera as it is the big problem in 3D.

Sonic Unleashed basically had speed and momentum in some areas but overall did not. Homing attack, boost and dash pads canceled all the momentum.

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[WakanoBaka]

5 hours ago, Blaze349 said:

I agree. I think Sonic team should rewrite the camera as it is the big problem in 3D.

Sonic Unleashed basically had speed and momentum in some areas but overall did not. Homing attack, boost and dash pads canceled all the momentum.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Indeed.

 

Chun Nan was a great example of momentum and physics at work, leap at the start, and you would skill most of those dasher. And I can understand why there are auto loops and dash pads, as I said before, sense of direction.

 

Think of it this way, get rid of boost and no spindash, no dashers. There is a hill, it would be like Sonic 1, but the camera would be the main problem. GWAH!  Really hard to explain. Sonic 3D blast and Sonic R is by far the perfect example of a 3D Sonic games, all it needs was more loops and platforms and a lil fixing, SA1 did it right, then it was lost, 06 somewhat brought it back, Unleashed took this but made it slightly more linear to focus on going fast, Generations brought it back, but on a smaller scale.

Okay it's getting really hard to explain,

the level design,

the camera,

the physics

 

Those are what truly change in all Sonic games past. Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R, if SEGA can just listen to the good fans, and look at the level design of those games, they can truly emulate REAL Sonic level design. Take the Sonic from SA2, give him the boost of Sonic UnWIIshed(or make it an upgrade you can buy), the parkour of Lost Worlds(or make it an upgrade you can buy), and that game would be PERFECT

[Blaze349]

I don't mind things like spindash because the require the player to stop to use.

Yes, Sonic R's way has so much potential. The loops if I recall had no dashpads and such. If they made a refined game based on this it would be amazing. While Sonic R camera provided the sense of depth needed for platforming, games with isometric cameras like Sonic 3D Blast can not involve jumping.

I was playing Sonic Generations's Sky Santuary and Seaside and was pleased overall with the 3D platforming section but wished it had better jumping. I would post a picture but y'know the first major play forming area in Sky Sanctuary? That was perfect level design.

So my idea for Sega to fix the franchise is to

1. Rehire whoever directed Unleashed and get him to run the game. Unleashed was a AAA quality game.

2. Rehire Yasuhara to work on level design. He worked on the classics, R, Jak and Daxter and Uncharted.

2. Continue using classic sonic from the cd intro. Make him 11 years old and the younger version of Sonic. He's design looks better and cleaner and his personality should be determined and subtle cool.

4. Keep the unleashed graphics but tone down the motion blur.

5.Rewrite the entire physics engine from Scratch. Havok either isn't working or isn't being used right.

6. Better camera, this camera should allow jumping, backtracking, exploration. The camera should definitely not zoom in sonic in platforming situations.

7. Increase Development time. Sonic games should not be released every year but at least on a three year basis at most.

8. No more separate teams. Make one team to work on one big project.

9.Partner with Apple to make a Amazing console.

Just one of the many ways to fix Sonic...

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[WakanoBaka]

I would rehire Yasuhara and get the guy who did the level design from Generations, have them do some collaboration.

I can't say they should partner with Apple just so they can make a console.....seems a lil, meh....maybe they would do it......

[Blaze349]

But if they did they would have a market already.

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